Is Pogba being misused by Mourinho ?

desmondisback

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Mourinho likes all rounders in the middle, attack well and defend as well, and maybe thought he could turn him into that. Maybe either Pogba doesnt want to change or cant adapt his game enough, and Mourinho wont adapt his tactics/system to accomodate him playing left of a midfield 3. We are already overloaded on the left, while the right is very sparce. Maybe if Pogba doesnt adapt it will make for an interesting summer transfer window.
Why shouldn't Jose "adapt" instead?
 

desmondisback

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I wouldn't see a lot of similarities between Gerrard and Pogba at all. Gerrard could play the box to box role and certainly wasn't afraid to put a shift in defensively either.
...but you are still missing the point. Pogba would probably do a similar job for us as Gerrard did for them. I don't see Pogba as being afraid to put in a defensive shift for his team. The difference is that Gerrard was given a free role and trusted to go out and affect the game both defensively and attacking wise. Pogba is not being trusted with that more free role. Jose would do that same thing to Gerrard as he is doing to Pogba. Pin him to a cork board and stifle his freedom.

Have a think about what made Gerrard at Liverpool and Lampard at Chelsea the players that they were.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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If Pogba really doesn't want to play as a central midfielder, he should have gone to Mourinho's office last summer, during pre-season, to plead his case. Mourinho's known for sticking to his "go to" men on the pitch and not for rotating two or three players of equal or similar quality in the most crucial positions of his system. The whole season was planned with Pogba in the midfield. If Pogba's recently discovered that he can't play there at the highest level or if he has decided that it would be a waste of his talents, he should suck it up and help the team finish its season strongly. Then, and only then, he can talk it over with the manager or even issue an ultimatum and push things to the edge, if that's what he really wants. During the course of the season, the manager is the supreme authority in a football side, period. Even when some fans don't like him.

As for Owen, when Rafa shit the bed by playingGerrard in the midfield in 2005's final risking losing with an astronomical scoreline, he had Hamann to bring on in the second half. A midfielder with exquisite positional awareness who could play the role of the metronome on the pitch and who could instill calmness in Liverpool's midfield. Does Owen have any suggestions for us? Or his narrative is to simply attack Mourinho by telling us things we already know? And please don't mention Herrera... for the love of God.
 

desmondisback

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If Pogba really doesn't want to play as a central midfielder, he should have gone to Mourinho's office last summer, during pre-season, to plead his case. Mourinho's known for sticking to his "go to" men on the pitch and not for rotating two or three players of equal or similar quality in the most crucial positions of his system. The whole season was planned with Pogba in the midfield. If Pogba's recently discovered that he can't play there at the highest level or if he has decided that it would be a waste of his talents, he should suck it up and help the team finish its season strongly. Then, and only then, he can talk it over with the manager or even issue an ultimatum and push things to the edge, if that's what he really wants. During the course of the season, the manager is the supreme authority in a football side, period. Even when some fans don't like him.

As for Owen, when Rafa shit the bed by playingGerrard in the midfield in 2005's final risking losing with an astronomical scoreline, he had Hamann to bring on in the second half. A midfielder with exquisite positional awareness who could play the role of the metronome on the pitch and who could instill calmness in Liverpool's midfield. Does Owen have any suggestions for us? Or his narrative is to simply attack Mourinho by telling us things we already know? And please don't mention Herrera... for the love of God.

I think Pogba is a midfielder in the same vein as Lampard / Gerrard / Toure. I think he wants to play in central midfield where all the action is. So I don't see your point really. You think Pogba wants to play 10 or striker? Owen did seem to be suggesting that Mou allows Pogba a free a rein as possible. Mou did it once with Lampard , why not Pogba? It just makes no sense because we won't get the best out of him otherwise.

You talk about Mou's "supreme" authority as if he is some kind of demi-god. He is not. A good manager is one who listens to his players and is prepared to admit when he has got something wrong.

Do you think at any point that Jose has said to Pogba - " Paul , go out there are do your thing. Don't worry about your position too much , just affect the game and let me worry about the rest of it . Be my Gerrard . Be my Lampard. Be my Pogba " I really don't think he has. It would be really interesting to see what might happen if he did. But will he dare?

Sometimes when I see us play I just think "what the hell have we got to lose by trying this out? "

A good manager is not afraid to experiment. A manager who thinks he is god will revert to his "authority" . No matter that his star player is stifled.
 

desmondisback

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Because one is one of the most successful managers in the world, and the other is acting like an entitled Prima Donna who needs to grow up and pull his finger out?
And this particular manager bought Pogba. If what you say is true (and I strongly dispute that anyway) then Mourinho made a misjudgement of Pogba's character. He should have known he was buying a free spirit who couldn't adapt to his system. Are you implying that Jose made a mistake with all that money? Or that he can't man manage properly?

Whilst I would agree that Pogba has an air of arrogance and cockiness about him (which btw the "special one" should relate to and understand being himself rather lacking in humility) the truth remains that his natural position is not where Jose puts him these days. So why spend all that dosh and break transfer fees and then not properly use him? It's like buying a Ferrari and then using it to go to Aldis. It's insane.

If I was a rival fan then the one thing I wouldn't want to see against my team is a Pogba given a free rein to go out and express himself and hurt my team using his strength and skill. I would much prefer him to be stuck in a restricted 2 in front of his own defence. If you are honest with yourself and think about it then you will know this to be true.

All Jose has to do is budge a bit and give this a go. I would suggest that moving Pogba away from a 2 with Matic is definitely worth a try. Our last 2 away games at Spurs and Newcastle show me that we have very little to lose and a lot to potentially gain. Then instead of speculating we would all be able to see the difference for ourselves. But alas I fear that day will never come. Jose is too stuck in his ways. He won't adapt himself but forces Pogba to adapt.

The golden rule in all sport is if something really isn't working then try something different. How do you know that it isn't Jose that needs to grow up and pull his finger out? He is being obtuse in his own way by refusing to update his own negative philosophy and realise football has moved on. Many pundits don't think that Jose is getting the best out of a lot of his players , let alone Pogba.

He just has to release him properly and see what happens. It's not as if the world is going to end or anything. We lost at Spurs and Newcastle anyway with Pogba playing in a static 2 with Matic. We didn't even score! What is he afraid of? Is he frightened that we will actually play better and become a better team and see a better Pogba?

If that happens then he could be shown to be wrong about Pogba and you can't have that if you are supposed to be "special". Are you sure it's Pogba being childish?
 

Turkleton

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Fergie did adapt throughout his career. It's why he was so successful for so long.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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Have a think about what made Gerrard at Liverpool and Lampard at Chelsea the players that they were.
Lots of things. Hard work, getting their head down and putting in a shift. Following the managers instructions. Scoring 20+ screamers a season.

Certainly not by throwing toys out of the pram and "subconsciously sabotaging their season".
 

Moonwalker

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Fergie did adapt throughout his career. It's why he was so successful for so long.
He adapted to the game (somewhat), although that aspect of his management has been greatly overstated, but he certainly hasn't adopted to player whims. In fact, that's one of the things he is most famous for not doing.
 

GM K

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...but you are still missing the point. Pogba would probably do a similar job for us as Gerrard did for them. I don't see Pogba as being afraid to put in a defensive shift for his team. The difference is that Gerrard was given a free role and trusted to go out and affect the game both defensively and attacking wise. Pogba is not being trusted with that more free role. Jose would do that same thing to Gerrard as he is doing to Pogba. Pin him to a cork board and stifle his freedom.

Have a think about what made Gerrard at Liverpool and Lampard at Chelsea the players that they were.
But Pogba has been the freest player in our team for as long as I can remember. Unless you are inferring that 'free' means not having a primary position in the squad when the opponent has the ball. That would hurt any team..
 

Jeppers7

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But Pogba has been the freest player in our team for as long as I can remember. Unless you are inferring that 'free' means not having a primary position in the squad when the opponent has the ball. That would hurt any team..
Romelu says hi
 

Greck

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I seem to remember Pogba throwing similar toys out of a similar pram a few years back, and Fergie certainly didn't adapt with that.
Please explain. From what I remember it was his agent who tried to get him first team assurances if he was to re-sign. It isn't throwing toys out the pram. He had better assurances from Juve and wanted the club to match that. You don't have to vilify Pogba for Mourinho's benefit
 

GM K

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Sorry to intrude but when Pogba is blasting shots off defenders from 30 yards when on a 3 v 2 break I find it hard to believe that the system is to blame. Many of his problems stem from immaturity in how he plays and reacting poorly to adversity.

Exactly my point of view. Spot on.

An argument can be made for him to be played in a certain area of the midfield but I think the argument is being over stretched and people are failing to see how much Pogba needs to improve his game considering his immense potential.
 

AidanMUFC

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I'm almost never in this forum but this question is being raised on more and more non-United forums. Clearly Pogba is not playing the £90m (Scholes' quote) as the world class player you expected to be signing .. so what is wrong since it's clear he has the ability but not it's not being applied (either by the player or in the correct way by the manager) ?

So, is Pogba being misused by Mourinho ? And if so what needs to change and will it ?

Watch the video first before replying (Scholes on Pogba) :
Yes and No. Paul Pogba is world class he should be able to perform in any midfield position BUT to get the absolute BEST out of Paul he needs to be played in a 3 man system where he can freely perform with out his full concentration on defensive duties.

I don't blame Jose, he simple doesn't have the players to play this formation.
 
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GM K

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So Roy Keane and Frank Lampard, two of the greatest midfield players we have ever seen agree that Pogba needs to adapt and improve:


KEANE
“If you are going to play in midfield, you should be able to play in a two or a three” Roy Keane (ITV)


LAMPARD
'I think maybe we're mixing it up with maybe he should be in a two or maybe he should be in a three. But when you play big games... Tottenham recently, Champions League if he plays tomorrow night, you have to have defensive responsibility whether you're in a two or whether you're in a three. That's your best and then go forward and create because he certainly has the ability to create. [He needs to] work it. watch games back, watch yourself, work in training, work on your relationship with the people around you. If anything if you're not sure about it protect areas and get in the right position as early as you can. From then he's so athletic he can arrive as many times and create goals.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...eeds-watch-improve-Lampard.html#ixzz57jHxklho



“I played as a two when we (Chelsea) won the Champions League and I spent most of my time in front of the back four trying to stop things happening. Cesc Fabregas, he wants to be on the ball but, tonight, he sacrificed for the team and stayed in position – and you have to do that sometimes.”

(Sorry for the Daily Mail reference. But it was reported in various media)



Pretty much simple. Jose should play Pogba more in his preferred role but Pogba also needs to improve and put in world class performances when asked to play as a deep lying playmaker in a 4-2-3-1 and whichever the formation is, he needs to put in the shift and cut out the showboating. Not playing in a 4-3-3 should never be an excuse for poor performances.
 
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GM K

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I think Pogba is a midfielder in the same vein as Lampard / Gerrard / Toure. I think he wants to play in central midfield where all the action is. So I don't see your point really. You think Pogba wants to play 10 or striker? Owen did seem to be suggesting that Mou allows Pogba a free a rein as possible. Mou did it once with Lampard , why not Pogba? It just makes no sense because we won't get the best out of him otherwise.

You talk about Mou's "supreme" authority as if he is some kind of demi-god. He is not. A good manager is one who listens to his players and is prepared to admit when he has got something wrong.

Do you think at any point that Jose has said to Pogba - " Paul , go out there are do your thing. Don't worry about your position too much , just affect the game and let me worry about the rest of it . Be my Gerrard . Be my Lampard. Be my Pogba " I really don't think he has. It would be really interesting to see what might happen if he did. But will he dare?

Sometimes when I see us play I just think "what the hell have we got to lose by trying this out? "

A good manager is not afraid to experiment. A manager who thinks he is god will revert to his "authority" . No matter that his star player is stifled.

But the same Lampard said....

'I think maybe we're mixing it up with maybe he should be in a two or maybe he should be in a three. But when you play big games... Tottenham recently, Champions League if he plays tomorrow night, you have to have defensive responsibility whether you're in a two or whether you're in a three. That's your best and then go forward and create because he certainly has the ability to create. [He needs to] work it. watch games back, watch yourself, work in training, work on your relationship with the people around you. If anything if you're not sure about it protect areas and get in the right position as early as you can. From then he's so athletic he can arrive as many times and create goals.
“I played as a two when we (Chelsea) won the Champions League and I spent most of my time in front of the back four trying to stop things happening. Cesc Fabregas, he wants to be on the ball but, tonight, he sacrificed for the team and stayed in position – and you have to do that sometimes.”


- Frank Lampard

 

Infra-red

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Jose should play Pogba more in his preferred role but Pogba also needs to improve and put in world class performances when asked to play as a deep lying playmaker in a 4-2-3-1 and whichever the formation is, he needs to put in the shift and cut out the showboating. Not playing in a 4-3-3 should never be an excuse for poor performances.
That's a fair assessment. If he wants to see the best of Pogba, Mourinho should be playing him as the most-advanced midfielder in a midfield three. Equally, Pogba should be performing to much higher standard than he is doing, when asked to play a more disciplined role in a two.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I think Pogba is a midfielder in the same vein as Lampard / Gerrard / Toure. I think he wants to play in central midfield where all the action is. So I don't see your point really. You think Pogba wants to play 10 or striker? Owen did seem to be suggesting that Mou allows Pogba a free a rein as possible. Mou did it once with Lampard , why not Pogba? It just makes no sense because we won't get the best out of him otherwise.

You talk about Mou's "supreme" authority as if he is some kind of demi-god. He is not. A good manager is one who listens to his players and is prepared to admit when he has got something wrong.

Do you think at any point that Jose has said to Pogba - " Paul , go out there are do your thing. Don't worry about your position too much , just affect the game and let me worry about the rest of it . Be my Gerrard . Be my Lampard. Be my Pogba " I really don't think he has. It would be really interesting to see what might happen if he did. But will he dare?

Sometimes when I see us play I just think "what the hell have we got to lose by trying this out? "

A good manager is not afraid to experiment. A manager who thinks he is god will revert to his "authority" . No matter that his star player is stifled.
There's no "free rein" in the way you imagine it. Lampard, Toure, Gerrard, they all followed their managers' instructions to the letter. Chelsea tore the PL apart during Mourinho's first stint there not because Lampard had the licence to roam on the pitch but because they always seem to find an extra body in the midfield with Lampard occupying the exact pockets of space Mourinho had instructed him to. Toure was always more than adequate in his defensive duties and he was always disciplined on the pitch. Gerrrard's best seasons came in a more advanced role. Plus Gerrard never complained about his role but he had the season of his life when Rafa shoved him at left wing. True soldier for his club, first and foremost.


I'm not talking about Mourinho's supreme authority, i'm talking about every manager's authority over the footballing department of every club once the season kicks off. Once the games start coming nonstop, he is obliged to listen to his players but the burden of responsibility lies with him. In that sense, the players are obliged to follow their instructions. Unless we want to become a circus like PSG where Neymar does whatever he wants and passes the ball to whomever he wants.

It's not about Mourinho "daring" to do something, that's a narrative some people have simply bought into because they don't like the man. Did he restrain Sneijder, did he restrain Ozil, Ronaldo and Hazard? As i mentioned earlier, the season was planned with Pogba being the player who would be at the heart of our transitions. He would be the player whose strength and power would provide good ball retention, whose magnificent surging runs with the ball through the lines would offer us urgency and aggression and, finally, whose excellent long passing skills would provoke positive attacking runs from the players ahead of him.

Is it a crime for a manager to believe that a footballer with Pogba's abilities can become that player? If it is, then burn the witch. By chance, did you watch Fabregas yesterday? One of the most creative players in the history of the PL (not just by reputation but by numbers) putting in a shift like everybody else and holding his position defensively in order to help the manager's plan. He's won a league title with Chelsea in that role too. But i guess that's too much to ask of Pogba and maybe you're right. Maybe he doesn't have the mindset to play at this level just yet and he needs to be traeted like a child.

Tactically, they've been experiments with Pogba's role in the team. Not his position but his role. He's been deployed in the left side which is the one Mourinho wants to overload and he's also been deployed on the right side of the midfield where we aim to find more open spaces to exploit. He's had both good and bad games in both roles.
 
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Cliche Guevara

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There's no "free rein" in the way you imagine it. Lampard, Toure, Gerrard, they all followed their managers' instructions to the letter. Chelsea tore the PL apart during Mourinho's first stint there not because Lampard had the licence to roam on the pitch but because they always seem to find an extra body in the midfield with Lampard occupying the exact pockets of space Mourinho had instructed him to. Toure was always more than adequate in his defensive duties and he was always disciplined on the pitch. Gerrrard's best seasons came in a more advanced role. Gerrard never complained about his role but he had the season of his life when Rafa shoved him at left wing.


I'm not talking about Mourinho's supreme authority, i'm talking about every manager's authority over the footballing department of every club once the season kicks off. Once the games start coming nonstop, he is obliged to listen to his players but the burden of responsibility lies with him. In that sense, the players are obliged to follow their instructions. Unless we want to become a circus like PSG where Neymar does whatever he wants and passes the ball to whomever he wants.

It's not about Mourinho "daring" to do something, that's a narrative some people have simply bought into because they don't like the man. Did he restrain Sneijder, did he restrain Ozil, Ronaldo and Hazard? As i mentioned earlier, the season was planned with Pogba being the player who would be at the heart of our transitions. He would be the player whose strength and power would provide good ball retention, whose magnificent surging runs on the ball through the lines would offer us urgency and aggression and, finally, whose excellent long passing skills would provoke positive attacking runs from the players ahead of him.

Is it a crime for a manager to believe that a footballer with Pogba's abilities can become that player? If it is, then burn the witch. By chance, did you watch Fabregas yesterday? One of the most creative players in the history of the PL (not just by reputation but by numbers) putting in a shift like everybody else and holding his position defensively in order to help the manager's plan. He's won a league title with Chelsea in that role too. But i guess that's too much to ask of Pogba and maybe you're right. Maybe he doesn't have the mindset to play at this level just yet.

Tactically, they've been experiments with Pogba's role in the team. Not his position but his role. He's been deployed in the left side which is the one Mourinho wants to overload and he's also been deployed on the right side of the midfield where we aim to find more open spaces to exploit. He's had both good and bad games in both roles.
I completely agree with this. It’s the reality.

I also have to wonder if Paul is a bit thick. It’s not that hard to work out what’s being asked of him. He actually has the responsibility to get forward and make things happen for the team. He’s also being asked to get back beside Matic when the other team are attacking us.

That’s all you need to do Paul. Come back and help win the ball when necessary. Especially if you’ve lost it in the first place. It’s not that hard to figure out.

I’d love to just see him put in a shift tonight. To want to dominate the game.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I completely agree with this. It’s the reality.

I also have to wonder if Paul is a bit thick. It’s not that hard to work out what’s being asked of him. He actually has the responsibility to get forward and make things happen for the team. He’s also being asked to get back beside Matic when the other team are attacking us.

That’s all you need to do Paul. Come back and help win the ball when necessary. Especially if you’ve lost it in the first place. It’s not that hard to figure out.

I’d love to just see him put in a shift tonight. To want to dominate the game.
I don't believe he's thick. If this was the case, Mourinho would not even consider him for such an important role in his tactics. Either he has a bigger idea for himself than he should at this point in his career (not difficult to happen with any individual who has huge potential but he hasn't fulfilled it yet) or he feels uncomfortable with burden bestowed upon him. Because being the leading figure at a club like Manchester United is an unbelievable honour but it's also a huge responsibility. I think Bilic was onto something the other day when he said that Pogba's trying too much to produce something extraordinary because he feels like he should always be the best player on the pitch after all the money we spent on him.

I agree with your second sentence completely. And because i can't view the video posted above by Irrational and maybe others can't either i'll just post another link here. It's Rio, Lampard and Gerrard discussing a midfielder's defensive duties and his freedom on the pitch.

 
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RedEM10

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The team should be built around Pogba imo
Why though? He has been very inconsistent and that's being nice.. even when playing absolute bucket sides. Hes a show pony who needs to get the fundamentals right and take it from there because we all know hes very good technically.

And this is where you completely misunderstand the problem. It does matter. Simple as that.
Misunderstand that he cant play in a 2 or 3? Hes just as lacklustre in both positions. He has been played in a 2, not up to speed. Played in a 3, on the left, no good....
 

RMD83

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it disappoints me when I see Pogba playing more defensively in the midfield 2. You wouldn’t buy a Lamborghini and judge it by it’s off road performance. Though I still believe that Pogba when asked, could still play a lot better in that midfield 2 than he has done whether it’s his best position or not.
 

desmondisback

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There's no "free rein" in the way you imagine it. Lampard, Toure, Gerrard, they all followed their managers' instructions to the letter. Chelsea tore the PL apart during Mourinho's first stint there not because Lampard had the licence to roam on the pitch but because they always seem to find an extra body in the midfield with Lampard occupying the exact pockets of space Mourinho had instructed him to.......................

...........................Tactically, they've been experiments with Pogba's role in the team. Not his position but his role. He's been deployed in the left side which is the one Mourinho wants to overload and he's also been deployed on the right side of the midfield where we aim to find more open spaces to exploit. He's had both good and bad games in both roles.
(RedDevil'sAdvocate - bear in mind that I am responding to you but also the other posts indirectly in this debate so cut me some slack if I don't fully represent your views porperly)

I am of course aware that there is no such thing as a true "free rein" in football without defensive responsibilities. I should have chosen a better phrase. I think every player should have the responsibility to close down the opposition - Pogba is no exception. Lampard / Gerrard / Toure all knew that they had to get back , tackle , and close down the opposition. Do really think that Pogba doesn't actually know this basic football fact? If he lacks even that basic football knowledge and application then Jose has wasted a heap of money on a completely inadequate footballer. If this were really true then we should be asking ourselves whether Mourinho himself is the sharpest knife in the drawer himself for actually buying him.

The problem you have is that if you go too far in your criticism of Pogba then you end up criticising Mourinho by default and screwing up your own argument that "Jose knows best". It's his effing job to assess Pogba's ability to be able to fit the system he wants - before he buys him. Especially with massive transfer fees. You can say Pogba is a lazy prima donna , or a footballer who doesn't understand the game or a child yadda yadda etc etc until you are blue in the face. The problem you will be logically left with then is that Jose made a massive misjudgement with a stack of money that we can't afford to mess about with if we are to compete with the top clubs. If the manager is this "supreme authority" then he also has "supreme responsibility" If the Pogba experiment doesn't work out because Pogba turns out not to have the brains and character to make it work - is it Pogba's fault or the manager's fault for buying him? If my employer takes on someone who is incompetent then it's the boss I am ultimately angry with not the guy who creates all the problems at work.

So , assuming that you don't think that Jose has made a massive misjudgement and that he's not an incompetent plonker for not being able to asses Pogba's character and football brains - what's really going on then?

For me it's a deeper issue. A basic clash of football philosophies and a managers instincts versus a players instincts. Jose is by default negative , cautious , reactive. Pogba seems to me to be proactive , attacking , more for taking risks. I think Pogba wants to tackle , win the ball , use his physicality to affect the game. A bit like Rooney's mentality. He's not a Matic though. If you watch the Spurs game the problem was that he was trying to go out there and affect the game by engaging players in midfield. The problem was that he was getting by-passed and Spurs just passed around him. He's a "get in your face" midfielder , not a "hold your position" midfielder like Matic. He needed to play in a 3 not a 2 versus Spurs. If we don't have the players then Mourinho should have bought a basic 20 million DM in January to sit alongside Matic and free Pogba up more.

I also don't think that your description of how Jose used Lampard is correct. He couldn't completely control or predict exactly how Lampard would show up in attacking positions. Football is not chess. Lampard was give licence to "do his thing" and show up in the box when he thought it was right. A significant part of what happens on a pitch is instinctive and not predictable even though there are tactics behind it. Also comparisons with Ozil , Sneijder , Ronaldo don't really work. None of those players really had the same ability to play a Matic type role. One of the issues with Pogba is that he is good enough , big enough and strong enough to be a Matic , even better than Matic. Many pundits seem to think that that's why he suffers, I've seen it in kids football. The player who is versatile and can play different positions suffers because the manager CAN almost play them anywhere. That means that they don't often get to play where they should . They get sacrificed to a system because they are too good.

Let me put it this way. Pogba could probably be moulded into a brilliant centre half - quick , physical , tall , aggressive. He could be better than Ferdinand if you moulded him. By why would you do that to him when he can devastate defences?

Just because he can and has the ability to play DM with Matic doesn't mean he should be there. Anyway , I'm off to take my Ferrari down to Aldis for a shop.
 
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Josep Dowling

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I only base my judgement from what I've seen him play at United because I rarely watched his time at Juventus.

A CM, especially one purchased for £90m, should be able to play in a midfield two or three. It was clear last season he was lacks in his defensive duties and this caused many of the better sides to dominate us in midfield. Many fans, including myself, said we need a DM to protect Pogba.

What happens, Jose pulls off an excellent and unexpected signing in Matic. This was the answer to all our problems. Roll forward six months and all of sudden with Matic and Pogba in a midfield two apparently it's not Pogba's fault yet again but the manager's fault for not playing 4-3-3.

Maybe, just maybe, Pogba is not as good as everyone thinks he is. His price tag has meant everyone assumes he's a top bracket midfielder. I see an inconsistent player who has a brilliant game against mid-table fodder where he plays nice, simple pass and move football. For whatever reason against the better teams he simply does not perform. He spends more time trying to out muscle his opponent then playing the simple pass. He does not track back even if he has lost possession. For me its just a lack of effort or understanding of his role. And that worries me because a footballing brain is hard to teach even if he has the talent at his feet.

I'm surprised Jose has not tried a 4-3-3 with Pogba on the left more often. Purely because of number 10 options are not particularly great anymore. The 4-2-3-1 has been a bit of disaster in recent weeks but I think Jose only used it because of Lingard's recent form. Now that he has slumped back to his true worth I expect Jose to try 4-3-3. If Pogba's form does not improve then, the common denominator is the player and not everything around him.
 

Cliche Guevara

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You wouldn’t by a Lamborghini with no reverse gear.

If the best Lamborghini in the world had no reverse gear you’d buy it and get the gearbox fixed.

If we have to keep doing this Lamborghini thing.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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(RedDevil'sAdvocate - bear in mind that I am responding to you but also the other posts indirectly in this debate so cut me some slack if I don't fully represent your views porperly)

I am of course aware that there is no such thing as a true "free rein" in football without defensive responsibilities. I should have chosen a better phrase. I think every player should have the responsibility to close down the opposition - Pogba is no exception. Lampard / Gerrard / Toure all knew that they had to get back , tackle , and close down the opposition. Do really think that Pogba doesn't actually know this basic football fact? If he lacks even that basic football knowledge and application then Jose has wasted a heap of money on a completely inadequate footballer. If this were really true then we should be asking ourselves whether Mourinho himself is the sharpest knife in the drawer himself for actually buying him.

The problem you have is that if you go too far in your criticism of Pogba then you end up criticising Mourinho by default and screwing up your own argument that "Jose knows best". It's his effing job to assess Pogba's ability to be able to fit the system he wants - before he buys him. Especially with massive transfer fees. You can say Pogba is a lazy prima donna , or a footballer who doesn't understand the game or a child yadda yadda etc etc until you are blue in the face. The problem you will be logically left with then is that Jose made a massive misjudgement with a stack of money that we can't afford to mess about with if we are to compete with the top clubs. If the manager is this "supreme authority" then he also has "supreme responsibility" If the Pogba experiment doesn't work out because Pogba turns out not to have the brains and character to make it work - is it Pogba's fault or the manager's fault for buying him? If my employer takes on someone who is incompetent then it's the boss I am ultimately angry with not the guy who creates all the problems at work.

So , assuming that you don't think that Jose has made a massive misjudgement and that he's not an incompetent plonker for not being able to asses Pogba's character and football brains - what's really going on then?

For me it's a deeper issue. A basic clash of football philosophies and a managers instincts versus a players instincts. Jose is by default negative , cautious , reactive. Pogba seems to me to be proactive , attacking , more for taking risks. I think Pogba wants to tackle , win the ball , use his physicality to affect the game. A bit like Rooney's mentality. He's not a Matic though. If you watch the Spurs game the problem was that he was trying to go out there and affect the game by engaging players in midfield. The problem was that he was getting by-passed and Spurs just passed around him. He's a "get in your face" midfielder, not a "hold your position" midfielder like Matic. He needed to play in a 3 not a 2 versus Spurs. If we don't have the players then Mourinho should have bought a basic 20 million DM in January to sit alongside Matic and free Pogba up more.
No worries, i'm enjoying reading your contributions to this thread. And i'm glad for this response because it saves me from a lot of writing.

I guess it's somewhat a matter of perspective. I'm not degrading Pogba by saying that he should be doing better in a deeper midfield role. I believe he has the skillset to become one of the very best in this position. Whether he wants to become this player or if he can become this player is yet to be seen. But i don't think it's a preposterous idea like some of our fans are suggesting. Not at all. Of course, the player's desires should be taken into consideration and his performances should be analyzed so that the manager can decide if he will continue building the team with Pogba as an #8 or if he will look into getting another midfielder in order to give Pogba a different role in the side. But until the transfer window opens and we have only friendlies to play in order to try new strategies, Pogba (or any player) should try his best in the role he's been given. I'm not calling him a lazy prima-donna but i'll not justify such a behaviour from any player now that we have everything to play for (assuming that the rumours are true and Mourinho is lying). If we accept that, we risk going down very dangerous paths which our club isn't known for following throughout its history.

Secondly, if you're looking for Mourinho apologists in me, please look elsewhere. I'm not denying their presence on this forum but i also see quite a few posters who are ready to always blame all the issues we have as a team on a pre-made opinion they have on the manager. Both equally wrong in my opinion. If after two years we decide to start from scratch and give Pogba a whole different role on the pitch, it will, of course, be a failure that will fall on Mourinho's shoulders. But you can't blame him for thinking that Pogba could play that deeper role and for trying to turn him into this player. It's not like there's an abundance of them out there. And the ones of proven quality are not easy to get from their respective clubs. The lure of Pogba providing a solution there for the next decade or so is very strong and it would tempt other managers too, who aren't so cautious and reactive as Mourinho. So, if it all comes down to blaming Mourinho for you, there you have it... he should be blamed if this all fails spectacularly. But we also have learned that Pogba won't become the best midfielder in the world (something he aspires to become) but he will always be a very good attacking midfielder who will always need a world-class holding midfielder and a world-class deep-lying playmaker to play behind him. Not a Lampard, a Gerrard, a Toure or a Scholes... by any means.

A final thing. Football is exactly like chess where even the most valuable piece in the attacking plan (the queen) has limitations and, in the end, it must serve the ultimate plan which is to protect the king. And just like chess, football is about controlling the space. Giving Pogba a role right at the heart of Mourinho's tactical plan (where the attacking transition begins) and where the opposition wants to hit it (high pressing) isn't degrading Pogba's abilities but showing him that he's our finest midfielder. But maybe it isn't meant to be. Not everyone can be like Scholes, after all: Excelling in a midfield of two as the more creative of the pairing, leading his team to a league title by playing behind the forward (2003) and then coming back and writing history again as a deep-lying playmaker.
 

Jeppers7

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You think he has ended up on the right wing by personal choice?
From my seat in the Stretford End, there has been no reason to question Pogba's work rate during games. He's always moving. Always finding space and up and down the pitch. He isn't defensive minded but he isn't given freedom. The only player with little defensive duty in general in Lukaku. In fact I think his general movement is poor and he is often lazy. Pogba ? Perhaps in one game for some reason...generally speaking not at all
 

Terminator

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Yes, completely. A player of Paul Pogbas attacking talent shouldn't be sitting so deep, he should be as high up the pitch as possible. Considering our lack of creativity in the final third, it makes even more sense.
 

shamans

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Is Mourinho mis-using Pogba? Probably yes.

But let's not give Pogba a free ride as well. The effort he shown isn't enough. You don't just go sulking and throwing tanturms because you didn't get what you want. How about putting and some effort and then come back with a better pitch?
This is true.

Mourinho could probably deal with it better but Pogba has not done enough at all.
 

FootballHQ

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On the bench for a knock out champions league tie. Oh Oh. :lol:

Has echoes for me of when Beckham and RVN were dropped around this time in a season. Statement to them they're suddenly expendable to the club and manager.
 

Cristiano Lell

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On the bench for a knock out champions league tie. Oh Oh. :lol:

Has echoes for me of when Beckham and RVN were dropped around this time in a season. Statement to them they're suddenly expendable to the club and manager.
Oh please.
 

R'hllor

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Is Pobga misused by JM? Clearly no, he`s not using him at all.
 

Bobski

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If he is over his bug and is not picked for tactical reasons then it should be a massive wake up call for Pogba. He failed to follow instructions against Spurs and Newcastle and was hauled off. If the effort level is not there I don't care how talented you are, no-one is entitled to anything in football.

Hopefully he comes on with a chip on his shoulder and wins Utd the game.
 

Sandikan

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The irony of picking a "Proper" 3 man midfield, and then he's benched is clear to see.

Hope he's just not 100% though.