I was responding to you saying that since van Gaal left we've been miles better "in every sense" including "league position". So it seemed to pertinent to point out that we actually slipped even further down the table in Mourinho's only full season than in van Gaal's second (and worse) season.
Have we significantly improved since we got rid of LVG?
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Web of Bissaka
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Not improve: Record against the top 6, except against Arsenal I suppose.
Improve by a mile: Everything else.
Improve by a mile: Everything else.
JK-27
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Of course we've improved, we have better players, average 2 goals a game (higher than under LVG), have a higher win percentage, are 2nd in the Prem, and still in the CL.
The issue really is what do fans want/expect? We want free flowing football a la City and Utd of old, and we expect to win games easily. That's just not reality. Pep isn't our manager, and other teams in the Prem and across Europe have improved massively.
I don't hear City fans claiming Pep is clueless because they lost to a League One club, yet a poor game from us and we're calling for people's heads.
The issue really is what do fans want/expect? We want free flowing football a la City and Utd of old, and we expect to win games easily. That's just not reality. Pep isn't our manager, and other teams in the Prem and across Europe have improved massively.
I don't hear City fans claiming Pep is clueless because they lost to a League One club, yet a poor game from us and we're calling for people's heads.
groovyalbert
it's a mute point
We've signed players we wouldn't have attracted with LVG at the helm, and probably won trophies we wouldn't have had Jose not been here.
In this sense, we've improved. Whether it's been enough, or indeed whether we're playing to the standard we should be with the sort of players we have at our disposal, is another question.
I feel like whenever we hit a poor spell an area in our side gets highlighted for being in need of significant improvement. Whilst areas can be improved, we should sill be capable of competing to a better standard than we currently are. The best managers manage to find an extra level from the players at their disposal. At times Jose has done this at Utd, but it seems to have dipped significantly as of late.
In this sense, we've improved. Whether it's been enough, or indeed whether we're playing to the standard we should be with the sort of players we have at our disposal, is another question.
I feel like whenever we hit a poor spell an area in our side gets highlighted for being in need of significant improvement. Whilst areas can be improved, we should sill be capable of competing to a better standard than we currently are. The best managers manage to find an extra level from the players at their disposal. At times Jose has done this at Utd, but it seems to have dipped significantly as of late.
0161_UNITED
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I certainly think we've improved, no question. i don't fully get the boring football theme. Sure, we've had a few snoozers but all there's also all the matches we scored 4 goals in. I feel like after the Spurs game things just got all weird. The idea that Sanchez would just slot right in seems to have gone and then it's apparent the team is still adjusting to having him in the lineup. It definitely seems to me like there was point when what was working reasonably well has hit some bumps in the road. Other than that there's just a bit of the normal fickleness and short term memories in some ways. Lukaku is apparently terrible for some people, I although I suspect he's certainly not being compared against Lacazette or Morata. Pogba apparently can't play in a 4-2-3-1 midfield 2, despite the fact he's done it for almost 2 seasons now, and occasionally put in some massive performances and generally looking pretty competent there, though maybe that position is not allowing him play to his fullest potential. Other than that, our defense is the best in England one week, the worst the next. And apparently our result against Sevilla was "the worst United match" some have ever watched. Some journo, Ducker I think?, hit the nail on the head when he said something like it's not that United were ultradefensive, something just looks off. I totally agree, since Sanchez came in, we've looked a bit disjointed, which is totally understandable trying to gel a new player into the squad.
But besides the weirdness on the pitch, there's the weirdness off the pitch with the Pogba - Mou feud and Mourinho's general demeanour and personnel management. Something feels like it's lurking under the surface.
Everything else just seems like knee jerking. Overlooking all the positives to focus on the worst performances. Forgetting just how hopelessly lost Moyes was as his final matches played out like a horror show. Forgetting how absolutely dreadfully boring LvG football was in the end. Even a FA Cup final, that we won, was a bit tedious. I've got some concerns about Mourinho, and the football, but there's no way we haven't improved, and I'd go so far as to say it's a significant improvement.
But besides the weirdness on the pitch, there's the weirdness off the pitch with the Pogba - Mou feud and Mourinho's general demeanour and personnel management. Something feels like it's lurking under the surface.
Everything else just seems like knee jerking. Overlooking all the positives to focus on the worst performances. Forgetting just how hopelessly lost Moyes was as his final matches played out like a horror show. Forgetting how absolutely dreadfully boring LvG football was in the end. Even a FA Cup final, that we won, was a bit tedious. I've got some concerns about Mourinho, and the football, but there's no way we haven't improved, and I'd go so far as to say it's a significant improvement.
Stookie
Nurse bell end
I suppose our league position says we have improved but we’ve also spent a lot. Are we any better to watch? No, I don’t think so at all. In fact I would say we are more frustrating to watch than ever before.
I think we're better. We're better in the league, safely in the top 4 and still in the CL. Under LVG, we didn't even get out of the group, lost 2 away games and drew the other. Not to mention we were incredibly boring every game. We weren't much better in the league.
People are overreacting because they're frustrated with what's happening now. Under LVG, the same thing happened with people arguing we were as bad as when Moyes was in charge (which we weren't).
The team is better. Mourinho is just overly cynical and defensive. People might not like that but let's not idealise a worse time.
People are overreacting because they're frustrated with what's happening now. Under LVG, the same thing happened with people arguing we were as bad as when Moyes was in charge (which we weren't).
The team is better. Mourinho is just overly cynical and defensive. People might not like that but let's not idealise a worse time.
Nytram Shakes
cannot lust
we've spent a lot of money on good established players, in that respect we have improved.
Not significantly but we improved. With LVG we achieved 4th knocked out from the C.L group stages and won FA cup then finished 5th. Bought some players like Darmian, Basti, Morgan we shouldn't have bought, and two big names with Maria and Falcao but didn't work out well, Martial and Rojo the only two IMO who are good enough to be at our team and maybe Herrera too as squad player no more. The football was boring most of times but we managed to get results from the big boys.
Jose did really well building a successful hierrchy for the club maybe for some years to come, brought some magnification names I doubt some other manager could bring them here, won with us two trophies in his first year back to the C.L and progressed from the G.S sitting second in the league almost since the league has started sitting behind a termandous Man.City team which is not bad till now. Football wise very defensive manager and I hate when I see our team looks like cowards and not United but most of times Jose some how can get the results he wants. So he is surely better than Louis but the two their football not attacking football like we used to see.
Jose did really well building a successful hierrchy for the club maybe for some years to come, brought some magnification names I doubt some other manager could bring them here, won with us two trophies in his first year back to the C.L and progressed from the G.S sitting second in the league almost since the league has started sitting behind a termandous Man.City team which is not bad till now. Football wise very defensive manager and I hate when I see our team looks like cowards and not United but most of times Jose some how can get the results he wants. So he is surely better than Louis but the two their football not attacking football like we used to see.
Fer
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We havent improve as much as I imagined. We signed Pogba, Ibrahimovic, Matic, Lukaku, Sanchez, etc... So I expect more.
Class of 63
Sourness
If there's any improvement it's not visible to the untrained eye.
Djemba-Djemba
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Something that is concerning is how we seem to have slowly reverted to LVG style first halves. The last 7 or 8 weeks we've really struggled to score in the opening 45 minutes.
I think it's 4 first half goals in the last 12 games. 9 out of the last 12 we've gone in without a goal. It's a real bad habit to get into.
I think it's 4 first half goals in the last 12 games. 9 out of the last 12 we've gone in without a goal. It's a real bad habit to get into.
poleglass red
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We've improved slightly but nowhere what we should have considering the money Jose has spent
We've improved a bit, but not much.
Champagne Football
New Member
That sideways Van Gaal stuff will live long in the memory. Traumatic painful memories indeed.
Mourinhos reign has been pretty dull and despite spending a kings ransom is making world class attackers look ordinary. But he's still miles better than Van Gaal. I believe Mourinho is not too far from creating a winning machine but whether he self-destructs before getting to that point remains to be seen.
Mourinhos reign has been pretty dull and despite spending a kings ransom is making world class attackers look ordinary. But he's still miles better than Van Gaal. I believe Mourinho is not too far from creating a winning machine but whether he self-destructs before getting to that point remains to be seen.
bosnian_red
Worst scout to ever exist
Obviously. Though I'd be tempted to say that just like LvG went backwards in his second season, mourinho is looking like he's doing the same. Big next 5 games to decide whether we have or haven't IMO. On pitch performances deteriorated at the end of last season but were mostly pretty good. On pitch this season deteriorated since December basically.
SadlerMUFC
Thinks for himself
Our results have improved but our style of play hasn't. At least it hasn't in the last year or so. Last year in the EPL we were an attacking team. We were very unlucky on several occasions and had some average keepers play like world class keepers against us. There were 9 games last year where we dropped points that the oppositions keeper was man of the match.
Then we started getting injury troubles and Mourinho started to throw away the league and concentrate on the Europa Cup. In the end it all worked out. But since that time our play has been horrible.
I have no problem with winning ugly. There were several occasions over the years that SAF would opt for a 4-5-1 on tough away matches and we would get a result. But Mourinho is taking "winning ugly" to a whole new level.
Yesterday in his press conference he talked about whether or not Beckham had to defend and made it like we are asking our offensive players not to defend. That's not the case. Of course we want everyone to put in a shift when we don't have the ball. But there are different ways of doing it.
City and Liverpool defend from the front when they don't have the ball. They work their socks off to get the ball back. When we don't have the ball we retreat into our end.
There's a time and place for sitting deep, but we don't have to do it as much as we do. And when we do finally get the ball back can we do more than just hoof it up the field to Lukaku? Can we make some passes?
Sevilla totally out passed us yesterday, and we were sitting so deep that they were allowed to easily move the ball from defense, to midfield, to attack. How about we close down teams every once in a while?
It's just been very frustrating to watch. A line up that includes Lukaku, Sanchez, Martial and Pogba should be one of the most feared attacks in Europe. Unfortunately under Mourinho, it isn't...
Then we started getting injury troubles and Mourinho started to throw away the league and concentrate on the Europa Cup. In the end it all worked out. But since that time our play has been horrible.
I have no problem with winning ugly. There were several occasions over the years that SAF would opt for a 4-5-1 on tough away matches and we would get a result. But Mourinho is taking "winning ugly" to a whole new level.
Yesterday in his press conference he talked about whether or not Beckham had to defend and made it like we are asking our offensive players not to defend. That's not the case. Of course we want everyone to put in a shift when we don't have the ball. But there are different ways of doing it.
City and Liverpool defend from the front when they don't have the ball. They work their socks off to get the ball back. When we don't have the ball we retreat into our end.
There's a time and place for sitting deep, but we don't have to do it as much as we do. And when we do finally get the ball back can we do more than just hoof it up the field to Lukaku? Can we make some passes?
Sevilla totally out passed us yesterday, and we were sitting so deep that they were allowed to easily move the ball from defense, to midfield, to attack. How about we close down teams every once in a while?
It's just been very frustrating to watch. A line up that includes Lukaku, Sanchez, Martial and Pogba should be one of the most feared attacks in Europe. Unfortunately under Mourinho, it isn't...
Turkleton
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We've improved against weak teams but declined against good teams. I think improvement is down to the excellent players we've bought in for large amounts of money rather than the manager.
Last season was a disaster. We finished sixth and won two trophies half of us don't really care about, partly down to favourable draws.
Results have been better this season but we are getting worse as our competitors are improving. I would not be surprised if we drop out of the top 4 by the end of the season.
Last season was a disaster. We finished sixth and won two trophies half of us don't really care about, partly down to favourable draws.
Results have been better this season but we are getting worse as our competitors are improving. I would not be surprised if we drop out of the top 4 by the end of the season.
mu4c_20le
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Most obvious improvements have been our transfers, Jose has gotten them mostly right and addressed our weak areas. But like others have said we havent really improved our play and when you look at how much weve spent its not actually all that great. We should be doing way better.
But in the process, he hasn't been able to solve our problems in the final third. So despite making some good buys in the form of Lukaku and Alexis, he hasn't been able to bind it all together into a tangible end product.Most obvious improvements have been our transfers, Jose has gotten them mostly right and addressed our weak areas. But like others have said we havent really improved our play and when you look at how much weve spent its not actually all that great. We should be doing way better.
Ekeke
Full Member
Not significantly but we have improved, I'd imagine a lot of managers could do that given the ridiculous amount we've spent though.
And yes City and Chelsea have spent too but we didnt need to spend huge amounts of money to improve on what LVG was doing, we just needed to get the best out of the players we had. He wasnt doing that and if we had done that we'd have improved just as much as we have.
And yes City and Chelsea have spent too but we didnt need to spend huge amounts of money to improve on what LVG was doing, we just needed to get the best out of the players we had. He wasnt doing that and if we had done that we'd have improved just as much as we have.
Eddy_JukeZ
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Yes, but not significant.
I still think the best football we played under Mourinho(and in years mind you) was that spell in September and October during his 1st season.
Of course, we just couldn't hit water if we fell out of a boat. Our finishing was the worst I've seen from a top club, but the results weren't indicative of how we played. We dominated teams on the field through our play. We've never replicated that since.
And our play is declining week to week along with results similar to Van Gaal's 2nd season.
The next set of games will likely make or break Jose's time here.
I still think the best football we played under Mourinho(and in years mind you) was that spell in September and October during his 1st season.
Of course, we just couldn't hit water if we fell out of a boat. Our finishing was the worst I've seen from a top club, but the results weren't indicative of how we played. We dominated teams on the field through our play. We've never replicated that since.
And our play is declining week to week along with results similar to Van Gaal's 2nd season.
The next set of games will likely make or break Jose's time here.
SalfordRed1960
Full Member
Surprised so many think we have improved.
With LVG, we had significant possesion, we were nearly always camped outside the opponents box. We just had no clue how to breakdown teams and seemed to have no desire to shoot. Very few games were we bossed. Not taking away that it led to the majority of games being frustrating and boring. I also think it is laughable to suggest we could not attract top players under LVG. The United name and money has always attracted players.
With Jose it is a case of being quite happy to sit back, concede possession and quite often be bossed for large parts of games regardless of the quality of the opposition. Table position doesn't lie so we are better off than all bar City. But we have not had any fluidity. We are still frustrating to watch and boring. He may well win trophies again this year, but the football is dross.
With LVG, we had significant possesion, we were nearly always camped outside the opponents box. We just had no clue how to breakdown teams and seemed to have no desire to shoot. Very few games were we bossed. Not taking away that it led to the majority of games being frustrating and boring. I also think it is laughable to suggest we could not attract top players under LVG. The United name and money has always attracted players.
With Jose it is a case of being quite happy to sit back, concede possession and quite often be bossed for large parts of games regardless of the quality of the opposition. Table position doesn't lie so we are better off than all bar City. But we have not had any fluidity. We are still frustrating to watch and boring. He may well win trophies again this year, but the football is dross.
Improved, YES.
Since Sanchez came in, the balance is no longer there. The next few games will be important to see where we go from there. We need to sort these up ASAP and move on. The rest are catching up to us.
Since Sanchez came in, the balance is no longer there. The next few games will be important to see where we go from there. We need to sort these up ASAP and move on. The rest are catching up to us.
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Football entertaining is not that much but other teams (except City) are going nowhere either.
Tony Babangida
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We are going through a bad patch but played some nice stuff earlier in the season. At one point we were consistently scoring 4 goals. People have very short memories.
For me, the LVG style of football killed the joy of watching united. I was at the 0-0 PSV home game under LVG and it was without a doubt the most boring football match I've ever been to. Actually, it was the most boring event I've ever paid to see and I once was forced to go and see "Hotel for Dogs" at the cinema.
LVG's football bored Old Trafford to death for two seasons. His press conferences were great though.
So yes, we have significantly improved.
For me, the LVG style of football killed the joy of watching united. I was at the 0-0 PSV home game under LVG and it was without a doubt the most boring football match I've ever been to. Actually, it was the most boring event I've ever paid to see and I once was forced to go and see "Hotel for Dogs" at the cinema.
LVG's football bored Old Trafford to death for two seasons. His press conferences were great though.
So yes, we have significantly improved.
Cait Sith
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Result-wise, yes, a bit. Although 2nd in the table is some overachievement for now. For me Tottenham and Chelsea are easily better teams. We've seen Tottenham boss the likes of Madrid and Juventus on their turf when 2 goals down and Chelsea go toe-to-toe with Barca. This United team doesn't have something like that in them at all. This United team gets tossed around by Sevilla who are a tier 3 team.
Loss vs. Chelsea on Sunday and United will be only 1 more game away from dropping out of top 4.
Loss vs. Chelsea on Sunday and United will be only 1 more game away from dropping out of top 4.
Keeps It tidy
Hates Messi
Why do you think a side like Spurs are willing to go toe to toe with the likes of Real, Juve and we are looking for a 0-0 draw away to Sevilla?Result-wise, yes, a bit. Although 2nd in the table is some overachievement for now. For me Tottenham and Chelsea are easily better teams. We've seen Tottenham boss the likes of Madrid and Juventus on their turf when 2 goals down and Chelsea go toe-to-toe with Barca. This United team doesn't have something like that in them at all. This United team gets tossed around by Sevilla who are a tier 3 team.
Loss vs. Chelsea on Sunday and United will be only 1 more game away from dropping out of top 4.
Cait Sith
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Obviously because of the coach. Don't get me wrong, I'm firmly in the "Mourinho is a dinosaur" camp ever since I watched his Real Madrid side and coaching methods closely in La Liga (the main league I watch). Much is said about Mourinho letting go of De Bruyne at Chelsea because he prefered Oscar but little is known outside of Spain how Modric under him was voted the worst transfer in La Liga because Mourinho loved Khedira. Now Pogba is sitting on the bench in the CL behind McTominay? There is something really wrong with how Mourinho sees the modern game.Why do you think a side like Spurs are willing to go toe to toe with the likes of Real, Juve and we are looking for a 0-0 draw away to Sevilla?
Castia
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We looked like we had at the start of the season but in all honesty not much.
I mean if you gave LvG Pogba, Lukaku, Sanchez and Matic there’s no doubt it would have improved his FA cup winning side. Jose is also getting really close to breaking LvG’s shittest football style ever record, the stuff we’re serving up at the minute is fecking trash.
I mean if you gave LvG Pogba, Lukaku, Sanchez and Matic there’s no doubt it would have improved his FA cup winning side. Jose is also getting really close to breaking LvG’s shittest football style ever record, the stuff we’re serving up at the minute is fecking trash.
Ace of Spades
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Football wise, not much.
superdry
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Got to agree with you at the moment, we're painful to watch, we haven't clicked with Sanchez yet and we won't if Mo doesn't pick the right players.I don't think it has. I think we've gone backwards.
This thread is certainly very thought provoking. Been reading it on my break.
CA_vampire
New Member
Yes, obviously.
We've already won a European cup and we are second in the league. Yes, there are games we are not doing as well as we'd have liked, but there is definitely an improvement.
We've already won a European cup and we are second in the league. Yes, there are games we are not doing as well as we'd have liked, but there is definitely an improvement.
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I know watching us is painful these days but fecking hell, LVG was ten times worse.
We're absolutely miles better in ever sense. Performance, players, entertainment, tactics and league position.
While I appreciate the struggle of sitting through the LVG tenure, we are hardly that much better off. People really are turning a blind eye to the actual results and performances going on this season.What about the two trophies not to mention qualification for the knock out rounds?
You do realize we've only managed 4 goals in our last 5 matches right? In those 5 matches we amassed a whopping 12 shots on target. How does that constitute improved performance and entertainment? It isn't just in recent weeks either this has been going on consistently throughout the season, we can go back to the Liverpool match at Anfield and I believe we managed 1 shot on target in the dying mins of the game?
As for trophies, lets be honest the league cup is just 1 above the charity shield and we were blessed to win that on the day. Jose apologized to Southampton for robbing them post match. I was happy with the Europa win but again it was a cup win that saved his backside and gave us CL entry via the back door.
As a mate of mine always says of cups, its luck of the draw too. I mean in the last 5 years we've seen Wigan, Hull, Villa, Palace (FA Cup), Swansea, Bradford, Sunderland (League Cup) and Dnipro & Ajax (Europa) make cup finals or win cups. Hardly great sides are they?
A bit of a slump during an injury hit period doesn't write off the progress we've made.
A bit of perspective:
We lost away to Tottenham and didn't play well
We lost away to Newcastle and didn't play well.
We drew a tough Champions League away match in Spain against a revitalised Sevilla.
We've won all of our last 10 games aside from the three games mentioned, scored 16 and conceded none. We're in the quarter finals of the FA Cup and have a home advantage to hopefully reach the quarter finals of the Champions League. Oh and still we sit in second.
Are we where we want to be? Of course not, is the football perfect? Hell no. We've come a fecking long way though and I think fans forget just how bad things have got if they think we're not making progress. I'd have sold my own mother if you offered me to be in this position at the same time of the season in Moyes' first year and Van Gaal's second.
A bit of perspective:
We lost away to Tottenham and didn't play well
We lost away to Newcastle and didn't play well.
We drew a tough Champions League away match in Spain against a revitalised Sevilla.
We've won all of our last 10 games aside from the three games mentioned, scored 16 and conceded none. We're in the quarter finals of the FA Cup and have a home advantage to hopefully reach the quarter finals of the Champions League. Oh and still we sit in second.
Are we where we want to be? Of course not, is the football perfect? Hell no. We've come a fecking long way though and I think fans forget just how bad things have got if they think we're not making progress. I'd have sold my own mother if you offered me to be in this position at the same time of the season in Moyes' first year and Van Gaal's second.
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It's not even a question for me. There is a big improvement in results and playing style.
There are some games especially against good opponents where we haven't played well but the games in Van Gaal's second season was so boring, only Martial and rashford made it worth watching. If not for them, Stoke vs West Brom would have been more interesting to watch than ours.
There are some games especially against good opponents where we haven't played well but the games in Van Gaal's second season was so boring, only Martial and rashford made it worth watching. If not for them, Stoke vs West Brom would have been more interesting to watch than ours.