Sevilla loss epitomizes everything that is currently wrong with United

Vilev

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Decent effort at the end. But lets look at why United lost this game in the grand scheme of things. First of all Sevilla is not a top team, a good one, but not even a strong second-level one like Roma for example. United should beat them comfortably.
The loss was of course the result of the exact game and it's particularities, things being different even playing like that we could have won, theoretically. But in this loss some major things about current United became quite obvious.

1) Transfer policy.
Sanchez transfer is another example of a needless money splashing purchases that we have seen after Fergie. Is Sanchez a great player? Sure. But should have we gone for him? The answer is no. And not just because it's been month and he is nowhere to be found on the pitch, but more importantly his transfer completely upset the balance of the squad.
Take this exact match. Because he was rather bad against Liverpool in the center, Jose decides to move him to the left. Meanwhile our best player in the that Liverpool game Rashford goes to the right. What do we have against Sevilla? Another nowhere-to-be-found performance from Sanchez and now an average one from Rashford, because he is not really comfortable on the right. So if Sanchez is playing like shit and Rashford was really good why Alexis's position must be prioritized? Because we paid huge money for him in terms of overall package, salary and stuff. Money that even City refused to pay. And he is a big player, with big ego. Before Sanchez came here, Martial was founding his way, was our best player in that period even, now it looks like he might be gone come summer. And all of that for a 29-years old player who can't deliver.

2) Cowardly tactics away from home.
We were not exactly expansive today at OT as well. But this overall situation, Sevilla scores and we are in trouble is a direct result of our detestable tactics away from home against almost every worthwhile side. What decent away games from Jose's United you can remember? Some would say Arsenal one, but honestly Arsenal had like 30 shots then, they were simply unlucky not to score more and we were clinical on the break. It's not like United dominated and played really well, we won, but that's about it. Other than that even our approach to these top away games has been awful. And then we go to Sevilla and play for 0-0. We get this 0-0, thanks to De Gea, but then what? We just put much more pressure on us in the home game. So because of this fear of conceding United messes up the home game plan as well. You can't win CL or league playing like that away from home against strong sides. You must at least try dictate terms, at least in some periods and in some games.

3) Absence of attacking game/plan/style.
Basically United does not know how to attack. Completely. Not like a top team. Sure because we do have good players, even Sahcnez who is looking completely useless right now can occasionally make a good cross, a good through ball and Lukaku or smb else can score. We also have a route one option, a long punt to Lukaku or even Fellaini, they fight for it, we get the second ball or better yet Lukaku just wins the ball for our quick runners and Martial or Rashford score, like it was against Spurs and Liverpool. But ultimately that's Stoke tactics. And while it can be effective in some instances, that not a long-term solution. More importantly there will come a time, like today when a team would need a proper attacking pattern, an attacking play. Players smartly interchanging positions, not simply changing for a couple of minutes like Rash and Alexis today. We need runners from the deep, number 10 connecting players and overloading areas. When United had a ball today in like 80% of the cases the team was completely lost. Nobody simply knew what to do.
It seems like Jose's plan for attack is option A, a long ball to Lukaku or option B, "you think of something yourself". A time where that sort of football could have won you anything has long passed. Sure, United won Europa League, but just look at who we played, we simply "bought" that title actually, in terms of spending power and quality of players we were miles, literal miles ahead of everybody. And even then you can't really say that United played better than Celta, Anderlecht or even Rostov. Or Ajax in the final. In all of these games we were lucky in some moments and never actually comfortably beaten the opponents, like really overplayed them. And that was against much worse, poorer teams. We are currently second in PL as some always like to remember. But if being second best is enough for you, never winning anything major sure United does not need to improve it's attacking play. Simply because we have some good players and can buy more we can maintain 2-nd or maybe 3-rd position.

But if we want to become a great club once again, not just a top-4 team like Arsenal a couple seasons back, we need to rectify all that. Whether Mourinho can or even want to do it i don't know. Whether club's bosses are content with that all things considered i don't know either. But i for one wanna see a different United. And even if means that we need to risk and that club might be out of top-4 for a season or even two, i'd take it. I'd take it to see something like that last title we have won, with crazy wins like against Villa, Newcastle. A team that could have gone to main rivals, City's, home and beat them not 0-1, but 2-3 in the last minute. Our last season under Fergie was not all good and it was not a classic. But the main thing is not even the title itself, but the simple fact that i enjoyed our play, even when United played so-so or badly, i could have felt the team. Right now... I don't. did i enjoy our win against Liverpool? I can't say that. I was relieved we won and happy for Rashford. But other than that, having ball 30% of the time at home, basically not even trying to attack the whole second half. That's not really a "United" for me. I don't think that result is the only thing that matters in football, because you watch the game, you watch for 90 minutes. You don't just browse the final score and say "well done lads". So i would very much encourage a change in current United team. If Jose can himself change or adapt at least fine, if not well it's also fine, but i don't think he will be here much longer.
 

simonhch

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Jose doesn't adapt. He's never adapted. Adaptation was one of Fergie's biggest strengths. The writing is on the wall for Jose. His methods look outdated and polarizing. He's gone backwards as a coach.
 

Raees

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Good post and especially the part on Martial. Absolutely embarrassing how so many fans jumped on Martial once Jose got his new toy in despite the fact Tony was in good form and doing everything manager was asking from him.
 

Vilev

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Good post and especially the part on Martial. Absolutely embarrassing how so many fans jumped on Martial once Jose got his new toy in despite the fact Tony was in good form and doing everything manager was asking from him.
The saddest thing is that Sanchez is a done player, he can still contribute lots, but he will only decline, that's a fact, he will never be as good as he was couple of years back. Essentially he has peaked.
And Martial is only 22, with a right guidance he can be one of the best players in world for years to come, he has a lot of talent. Same with Rashford. It looks like a De Bryne situation all over again.
 

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Good post and especially the part on Martial. Absolutely embarrassing how so many fans jumped on Martial once Jose got his new toy in despite the fact Tony was in good form and doing everything manager was asking from him.
They're still jumping on him. Saw a comment in the match thread today about how he along with Pogba and Sanchez are our most overpaid players despite Martial being on around 10% of what the other two are on combined and he played what? 10-15 mins against Sevilla.

My main issue today was that it was clear before the match had even begun that we needed at least two goals to progress. One could have been enough if we had kept Sevilla out but it is way too risky in the CL to rely on just scoring one goal. Then came the actual tactics. Sevilla dominated us, we made one change early in the second half and hardly anything had changed. We needed some sort of change in attack to increase the likelihood of us scoring but we waited until it was too late. Change should have been something that happened around 60-65 mins latest rather than after they scored around close to the 80th.

Good post OP. I didn't quite get the thinking with the club going for Sanchez, but thought that maybe he was being signed to take the position of our weakness on the right as he had played there before. Instead he took Martial's place who out of all our players had the best chemistry with Lukaku, and I agree Martial will probably be gone in the summer which'll be a shame as there's no guarantee Sanchez will get back to what he was a couple of years ago.
 

Bojan11

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Whose jumping on Martial?

For me he is our best attacker. Something will happen when he has the ball unlike Rashford and Lingard.

At the moment we making it up as we go along.

We can’t defend or attack set pieces. We cannot string three passes together forward. We just a team of individuals with no unity.
 

R'hllor

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Young getting injured and banned -> Shaw taking his spot, looking decent and improving -> Young gets instant slotted in instead of Shaw the moment his suspension ended.

McT plays decently -> Afro comes from injury, gets fit or barely fit to start, boom, instant slotted.

Rashford scores 2 -> Sanchez who didnt look great take over that left side position and Rashford being forced out on the right.

Martial being in decent form -> we buy Sanchez -> Martial instant being moved on the right,so Sanchez can take left. Regardless of your form if you arent a senior, player with experience you are fecked.
 

Raees

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The saddest thing is that Sanchez is a done player, he can still contribute lots, but he will only decline, that's a fact, he will never be as good as he was couple of years back. Essentially he has peaked.
And Martial is only 22, with a right guidance he can be one of the best players in world for years to come, he has a lot of talent. Same with Rashford. It looks like a De Bryne situation all over again.
Worst thing is we are sleep walking into such a situation especially with his contract not signed yet.

I honestly think we need to prioritise keeping Martial at this club and then getting the right coaching staff in. He's a gem in the making and needs the right coach to turn him into a world beater.

Someone like Pogba I'm not too fussed about.. yes he's been mishandled but I've never been convinced by him even pre United but Martial definitely has alot of talent and he's been managed shoddily imo on the whole. Constantly made to feel uncomfortable and then people act surprised when he is not smiling or bundling with enthusiasm. Fergie and him would have got on like a house on fire IMO.
 

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The saddest thing is that Sanchez is a done player, he can still contribute lots, but he will only decline, that's a fact, he will never be as good as he was couple of years back. Essentially he has peaked.
And Martial is only 22, with a right guidance he can be one of the best players in world for years to come, he has a lot of talent. Same with Rashford. It looks like a De Bryne situation all over again.
Nahh Jose will make him play leftback until he turns 38...
 

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4) The knee-jerk reactions from fans calling for Jose's head. Inability to accept the cons of his tactics while enjoying the pros. The fans who just can't accept we aren't a SAF team anymore, we aren't his United anymore. And how they cannot make peace with Jose's shortcomings given how success so far at United in terms of results and silverware. And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.
 

Vilev

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Nahh Jose will make him play leftback until he turns 38...
But on a serious note i think a proper "thank you" you should be addressed to Young. I never thought he would be even a decent full back, but he had some really great games. and given that Rojo and Blind are nowhere to be found, he really helped the team.
Thought i am in favor of giving ?Shaw more time, at least rotate them, Jose, for f's sake.
 

Catt

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4) The knee-jerk reactions from fans calling for Jose's head. Inability to accept the cons of hours tactics while enjoying the pros. The fans who just can't accept we aren't a SAF team anymore, we aren't his United anymore. And how they cannot make peace with Jose's shortcomings given how success so far at United in terms of results and silverware. And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.
I think this game was the turning point for a few, myself included, and it's not one game but rather a string of poor preformances. We don't play like a team and we have no idea how to attack. As I said earlier, this style of play is only acceptable if you win the biggest trophies.
 

Vilev

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And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.
Not a one bad result, it's constant shit games and degrading. With the stuff that is happening with Pogba, Martial and even Sanchez no decent young talent would want to come here.
As for "silverware", even LVG had one of those. What is that mysterious "silverware"? A LE cup won in games against Rostov, Anderlecht, Ajax and Celta? You know what i concede, if you could name me just what, lets say 7 players from these five teams. Without looking to wikipedia of course.
 

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Whose jumping on Martial?

For me he is our best attacker. Something will happen when he has the ball unlike Rashford and Lingard.

At the moment we making it up as we go along.

We can’t defend or attack set pieces. We cannot string three passes together forward. We just a team of individuals with no unity.
Paul Pogba, Alexis Sanchez, Martial... all overpaid cnuts.
What the hell is the deal with Sanchez? I've been defending him ever since he got here but he has been loosing the ball at Martial rate levels so far.
Just from today's match thread.

There has definitely been a rise in the number of Martial-bashing comments since Sanchez signed (usually from the same posters to be fair)

Wow, Sanchez playmaking is incredible. What a difference when he plays as oppose to Martial.
That kind of assist never happens with Martial instead of Sanchez, it just doesn't. We're a different beast with Akexis now.
I think under the right manager Shaw can become a top-class fullback, but it’s pretty obvious Jose isn’t that manager, so it’s best to part ways.

Rose has been poor this season, but I imagine that’s primarily due to his lack of motivation/consistent game time after injury; I feel he wants United. At least he’d have a blank canvas next season upon which to discover his best form again.

I can’t see both both Alderweireld and Rose heading to Manchester this summer, with Martial perhaps going the other way with Shaw as well. If you want Mourinho to win, he has to have his players; Martial, Shaw and dare I say Pogba don’t have the character to succeed under him.
 

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It was definitely an example of something that has worried me and I've tried to ignore which is just Jose and Utd aren't compatible.

You can't have Manchester United playing like the underdogs with the regularity that Jose wants. We aren't underdogs, we're Man Utd for feck sake!
 

rpg

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Absolute disgrace. Spunked money on transfer way more than Sevilla. Why do we have to lose?
 

reddaz71

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We are 2nd in the league but the pragmatism is just not in our DNA,we have a brilliant attack on paper and its mystifying why we play with the handbrake on, something has to give!
 

redmanx

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4) The knee-jerk reactions from fans calling for Jose's head. Inability to accept the cons of his tactics while enjoying the pros. The fans who just can't accept we aren't a SAF team anymore, we aren't his United anymore. And how they cannot make peace with Jose's shortcomings given how success so far at United in terms of results and silverware. And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.
I agree, just who is supposed to come in and take over, Guardiola? Simonez, my choice to replace Moyes, couldn't be prised from Atletico and still cant it seems; I cant see Pochettino leaving Spurs for us; it was always going to be tough replacing SAF and would take time for us to return to the top of the tree, and Mourinho can take us there, but if not him, then who? Only a very, very, very competent, confident experienced manager would consider taking us on; but hey, theres always Alan Pardew or one of the other mediocrities who ply their trade in the basement bargain dept of the Premier League; they don't win a fecking thing, but boy, I bet its exciting being in a permanent battle to avoid relegation!
 

U99ted

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4) The knee-jerk reactions from fans calling for Jose's head. Inability to accept the cons of his tactics while enjoying the pros. The fans who just can't accept we aren't a SAF team anymore, we aren't his United anymore. And how they cannot make peace with Jose's shortcomings given how success so far at United in terms of results and silverware. And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.
It’s not “one bad result”. It wasn’t long ago we had the nonsense at Wembley and St James Park. Then we got those big wins over Chelsea and Liverpool, and the comeback vs. Palace after a dreadful first hour. We can’t be this inconsistent and expect to fight for the league and CL. That’s why people cannot and should not accept the cons of his tactics.
 

arthurka

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But on a serious note i think a proper "thank you" you should be addressed to Young. I never thought he would be even a decent full back, but he had some really great games. and given that Rojo and Blind are nowhere to be found, he really helped the team.
Thought i am in favor of giving ?Shaw more time, at least rotate them, Jose, for f's sake.
If Jose could play Fellaini there he would so Shaw should be happy getting some game time...
 

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Do people really think Martial will be off in the summer? It's likely he's pissed off at not getting a look in, especially when the star player just bought has been pretty dreadful, but I think it will dawn on Jose that sacrificing the team to play Sanchez in his favoured position isn't worth anything. I'd also suspect that there are other voices around OT that would find the idea of selling him because we've got a 29 year old Sanchez tied down for 3 and a half years on crazy money to be two-wrongs-make-a-right type of thinking and there'd likely be opposition from the players too.

I think Sanchez will eventually get used to the team and regain the talent to play good football, while logic will also play a part in how we go forward with him playing more behind Rom or out right.

There are times where I think playing defensive is the right thing to do but tonight it was more the disaster of reverting back to a 4231 formation and playing Rashford out of position that destroyed us. Quite strange that Jose decided to opt for a non-match-fit Fellaini and a tired Matic, neither of whom have any pace, to run midfield. It is as if he expected us to dominate, because that type of setup can only work when you expect to be dominant.

Tonight is all on Jose I'm afraid.
 

ravi2

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I think this game was the turning point for a few, myself included, and it's not one game but rather a string of poor preformances. We don't play like a team and we have no idea how to attack. As I said earlier, this style of play is only acceptable if you win the biggest trophies.
I agree, I've been saying it all season...its like our team is not offensively coached at all...its like Jose just tells then to go out there and do their thing whatever that might be. I recall his Chelsea, inter and Madrid sides looking great offensively I'm not sure what happened. It's like he has regressed as a manager
 

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The management of this club is piss poor. That goes beyond Jose (though he's far from blameless). As said in the OP, the Sanchez deal is a case in point. Horrendous decision making, even if I do think the player has the ability to come good. We have no direction or confidence from the board, we simply jump to the most obvious big money decision. That's the hiring of Jose, signings like di Maria, Falcao, Sanchez. We do nothing innovative whatsoever in the football world. One can look at Juventus and say "damn, lets try to emulate that transfer policy". Or to Spurs and say "damn, that pressing game works really well", etc. What would you say about United today? "damn, that crisps sponsorship was clever business".

Fecking dire.
 

noodlehair

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Here's my problems with Jose.

1) It was picked up fairly early on in his tenure, even on here, that both visibly and statistically, we just don't put the same work rate in as our opponents do. This is an immediate concern as soon as we are struggling to win games, because there has to be a very good reason to try less hard than an opponent, and the only one I can think of is because you're beating them comfortably regardless. Something we do not do. It isn't a cliche...we lost to Chelsea this season, stats showed the difference in ground covered was equivalent to Chelsea having one and a half extra players...not only that, but the game to the naked eye also looked like they did! The same happened against Spurs. It happened against Huddersfield. It happened against Bristol, Manchester City, etc. Do we learn? You look at the game tonight, and we are picking up the ball, and it is genuinely hard to tell if the ref has stopped the game or not, becauuse we just do not wnat to work hard. We go behind and there is a noticable increase in intensity, speed, effort. Wanting to be a successful team, while other teams work harder than you, and you struggle to compete with them, and still when this is indesputably clear, not working as hard as them, falls somewhere between stupidity and just plain deliberate failure. If Jose is getting the players to do this or doesn't think it's an issue, that is completely unacceptable. If he does see it as a problem, he has had long enough that you have to presume he simply doesn't know how to sort it out.

2) Mourinho is a fairly easy manager to sum up. He is a manager you sacrifice things such as principles for, because he brings success. If he doesn't bring success...what does he bring? Not much else when you boil it down. So the judgement comes down to what you think constitutes success. THis season, the very top end of what we cann manage now is top four, and an FA cup. This is the same thing that Jose himself thinks makes Wenger a "loser" ...you also have situations like tonight where sacrificing principles seems to have done the opposite of bringing success. Who in their right mind wants to sacrifice their team playing the football they want, in order to allow the team to lose? He did the same at Chelsea, so you can't even put it down to being a one off or incidental problem. It's at this point, a fundamental flaw, and a pretty fecking damming one at that.
 

desmondisback

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4) The knee-jerk reactions from fans calling for Jose's head. Inability to accept the cons of his tactics while enjoying the pros. The fans who just can't accept we aren't a SAF team anymore, we aren't his United anymore. And how they cannot make peace with Jose's shortcomings given how success so far at United in terms of results and silverware. And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.

I wasn't celebrating him . I thought we beat Liverpool despite his tactics not because of them. Tonight was the raw truth of Jose and his negativity exposed for all to see.
 

Sylar

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Jose fear of failure / defeat trumps his desire to win

I honestly think it we approach this tie with the aim to score and win we could blitz them
They weren't special but that was still way better than us which says a lot

And as bad as the tactics were seeing our players not able to string 4-5 passes is shocking. Ugh
 

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About time @noodlehair, been waiting hours to read your thoughts.

I agree with you.

You'd really hope tonight would shake Mourinho to the core and he'd change his approach but there is no chance of that. This is how Jose does it, you play badly and you win, or you play badly and you lose.
 

AndyJ1985

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We're going nowhere fast. Mourinho is outdated and seems to have lost the charisma and passion that once made him great. I suppose its fitting he's now managing us because as a club we've lost what once made us great. Since Ferguson left we've had no direction and no long term plan. I fully expect Mourinho to be gone within the next year and I fully expect us to hire another over the hill manager to carry on our recent trend of wasting money.

I've said for a long time we need a director of foot all. City's rise to dominance began with hiring Barcelonas director of football. That was the start of their long term plan. What's ours?
 

VeevaVee

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Well yes it is.

We play better when Martial is in the team and Lukaku actually has someone who is going to pass him the ball.
No it isn't. Something doesn't happen many times he plays. He could become an incredible player, and Sanchez isn't doing much to keep him out, but there's no point making stuff up.
 

Bojan11

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No it isn't. Something doesn't happen many times he plays. He could become an incredible player, but there's no point making stuff up.
What isn’t?

Make sense. He’s the only player in the team who can actually dribble with the ball without kicking and rushing it like Rashford. He actually has control of the ball. He is the only player who can provide service to our striker and the stats show it that him and Lukaku have the best link up between all our attackers.

So where is the making stuff up?
 

VeevaVee

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What isn’t?

Make sense. He’s the only player in the team who can actually dribble with the ball without kicking and rushing it like Rashford. He actually has control of the ball. He is the only player who can provide service to our striker and the stats show it that him and Lukaku have the best link up between all our attackers.

So where is the making stuff up?
That he does something with the ball every time. That's not true. Martial is capable of doing something magic, but I'm more confident that Rashford will actually affect a game. Tonight, in hindsight, it looks like Martial would've been the better option. There's more obvious choices that Jose got wrong though.
 

Bojan11

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That he does something with the ball every time. That's not true. Martial is capable of doing something magic, but I'm more confident that Rashford will actually affect a game. Tonight, in hindsight, it looks like Martial would've been the better option. There's more obvious choices that Jose got wrong though.
Martial was our best attacker before Sanchez arrived whilst Rashford did nothing for months besides run the ball out of play. Two goals against Liverpool doesn’t change the fact he hasn’t been good enough this season. He’s had opportunities. Lukaku and Martial actually have a decent partnership going.

Once Sanchez arrived, Martial was shunted to the right for some reason and didn’t look the same.
 

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That he does something with the ball every time. That's not true. Martial is capable of doing something magic, but I'm more confident that Rashford will actually affect a game. Tonight, in hindsight, it looks like Martial would've been the better option. There's more obvious choices that Jose got wrong though.
You’re only more confident that Rashford will affect a game because you’re biased. That’s the only reason you’ll keep believing falsehood like this.

The Rashford vs Martial debate was settled a long time ago and I don’t need to tell you who came out on top. Rashford’s recent heroics against Liverpool, though very admirable, won’t change what we know already.

Martial is our best attacker. He’s inconsistent but he’s still more consistent than Rashford.
 

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Some excellent discussion in here. As I see it the poor performance once again comes down to the formation/personnel selected. A combination of Matic/Fellaini in midfield was never going to work and it was evident from the first half that we had no control in midfield.

I can probably see from Jose's team selection that he has prejudiced trust in certain player's and chooses them regardless of how the other player has been performing. Shaw was playing well, but he was dropped, same with Martial. I have said it before as well, there was a certain chemistry building between Martial, Pogba and Lukaku but that has been disrupted. And it was the chemistry that was also lacking in our attacking play.
 
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desmondisback

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About time @noodlehair, been waiting hours to read your thoughts.

I agree with you.

You'd really hope tonight would shake Mourinho to the core and he'd change his approach but there is no chance of that. This is how Jose does it, you play badly and you win, or you play badly and you lose.
It won't shake him. He's already fooling himself about what happened. This result/performance tonight is the best thing that could have happened to United. We were never going to win the thing anyway. At least this way we might be able to shed Jose's poisonous caution. His days are numbered now.
 

VeevaVee

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You’re only more confident that Rashford will affect a game because you’re biased. That’s the only reason you’ll keep believing falsehood like this.

The Rashford vs Martial debate was settled a long time ago and I don’t need to tell you who came out on top. Rashford’s recent heroics against Liverpool, though very admirable, won’t change what we know already.

Martial is our best attacker. He’s inconsistent but he’s still more consistent than Rashford.
Stats in the last few games Martial started also don't tell the whole story. You make out like it's clear cut, but more and more people on here have realised that Martial can have moments of greatness, but doesn't actually have an affect on much of most games he's involved with. I'd say Rashford does, although his moments of magic are rarer. Also more likely to get involved when brought on as a sub.
One of the main issues with attacking is our movement, and Rashford is much better at it. So it's not clear cut either way, and Martial isn't the instant or even the definite future answer to our problems so many people have made him out to be. He might be, and we should do our best to get to that, but it isn't guaranteed, and if it means our current games are affected negatively it's also a bit of a raw deal.
Now, at the moment, he'd probably do as well as anyone, but he's quite often not good enough himself either. He should get some starts asap though..because it obviously can't get much worse.