Sevilla loss epitomizes everything that is currently wrong with United

[Greck]

You’re only more confident that Rashford will affect a game because you’re biased. That’s the only reason you’ll keep believing falsehood like this.

The Rashford vs Martial debate was settled a long time ago and I don’t need to tell you who came out on top. Rashford’s recent heroics against Liverpool, though very admirable, won’t change what we know already.

Martial is our best attacker. He’s inconsistent but he’s still more consistent than Rashford.

It's a non-provable falsehood commonly banded about. Running around isn't more valuable than goals and playmaking. Irony is Rashford plays like a lonewolf while Martial has a better connection with our best players

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Decent effort at the end. But lets look at why United lost this game in the grand scheme of things. First of all Sevilla is not a top team, a good one, but not even a strong second-level one like Roma for example. United should beat them comfortably.
The loss was of course the result of the exact game and it's particularities, things being different even playing like that we could have won, theoretically. But in this loss some major things about current United became quite obvious.

1) Transfer policy.
Sanchez transfer is another example of a needless money splashing purchases that we have seen after Fergie. Is Sanchez a great player? Sure. But should have we gone for him? The answer is no. And not just because it's been month and he is nowhere to be found on the pitch, but more importantly his transfer completely upset the balance of the squad.
Take this exact match. Because he was rather bad against Liverpool in the center, Jose decides to move him to the left. Meanwhile our best player in the that Liverpool game Rashford goes to the right. What do we have against Sevilla? Another nowhere-to-be-found performance from Sanchez and now an average one from Rashford, because he is not really comfortable on the right. So if Sanchez is playing like shit and Rashford was really good why Alexis's position must be prioritized? Because we paid huge money for him in terms of overall package, salary and stuff. Money that even City refused to pay. And he is a big player, with big ego. Before Sanchez came here, Martial was founding his way, was our best player in that period even, now it looks like he might be gone come summer. And all of that for a 29-years old player who can't deliver.

2) Cowardly tactics away from home.
We were not exactly expansive today at OT as well. But this overall situation, Sevilla scores and we are in trouble is a direct result of our detestable tactics away from home against almost every worthwhile side. What decent away games from Jose's United you can remember? Some would say Arsenal one, but honestly Arsenal had like 30 shots then, they were simply unlucky not to score more and we were clinical on the break. It's not like United dominated and played really well, we won, but that's about it. Other than that even our approach to these top away games has been awful. And then we go to Sevilla and play for 0-0. We get this 0-0, thanks to De Gea, but then what? We just put much more pressure on us in the home game. So because of this fear of conceding United messes up the home game plan as well. You can't win CL or league playing like that away from home against strong sides. You must at least try dictate terms, at least in some periods and in some games.

3) Absence of attacking game/plan/style.
Basically United does not know how to attack. Completely. Not like a top team. Sure because we do have good players, even Sahcnez who is looking completely useless right now can occasionally make a good cross, a good through ball and Lukaku or smb else can score. We also have a route one option, a long punt to Lukaku or even Fellaini, they fight for it, we get the second ball or better yet Lukaku just wins the ball for our quick runners and Martial or Rashford score, like it was against Spurs and Liverpool. But ultimately that's Stoke tactics. And while it can be effective in some instances, that not a long-term solution. More importantly there will come a time, like today when a team would need a proper attacking pattern, an attacking play. Players smartly interchanging positions, not simply changing for a couple of minutes like Rash and Alexis today. We need runners from the deep, number 10 connecting players and overloading areas. When United had a ball today in like 80% of the cases the team was completely lost. Nobody simply knew what to do.
It seems like Jose's plan for attack is option A, a long ball to Lukaku or option B, "you think of something yourself". A time where that sort of football could have won you anything has long passed. Sure, United won Europa League, but just look at who we played, we simply "bought" that title actually, in terms of spending power and quality of players we were miles, literal miles ahead of everybody. And even then you can't really say that United played better than Celta, Anderlecht or even Rostov. Or Ajax in the final. In all of these games we were lucky in some moments and never actually comfortably beaten the opponents, like really overplayed them. And that was against much worse, poorer teams. We are currently second in PL as some always like to remember. But if being second best is enough for you, never winning anything major sure United does not need to improve it's attacking play. Simply because we have some good players and can buy more we can maintain 2-nd or maybe 3-rd position.

But if we want to become a great club once again, not just a top-4 team like Arsenal a couple seasons back, we need to rectify all that. Whether Mourinho can or even want to do it i don't know. Whether club's bosses are content with that all things considered i don't know either. But i for one wanna see a different United. And even if means that we need to risk and that club might be out of top-4 for a season or even two, i'd take it. I'd take it to see something like that last title we have won, with crazy wins like against Villa, Newcastle. A team that could have gone to main rivals, City's, home and beat them not 0-1, but 2-3 in the last minute. Our last season under Fergie was not all good and it was not a classic. But the main thing is not even the title itself, but the simple fact that i enjoyed our play, even when United played so-so or badly, i could have felt the team. Right now... I don't. did i enjoy our win against Liverpool? I can't say that. I was relieved we won and happy for Rashford. But other than that, having ball 30% of the time at home, basically not even trying to attack the whole second half. That's not really a "United" for me. I don't think that result is the only thing that matters in football, because you watch the game, you watch for 90 minutes. You don't just browse the final score and say "well done lads". So i would very much encourage a change in current United team. If Jose can himself change or adapt at least fine, if not well it's also fine, but i don't think he will be here much longer.

Same thing happened with Martial who was flying and forming a great understanding with those around him before being shunted out wide. I'd be pretty frustrated if I was Martial or Rashford. I mean, it makes sense if Sanchez justifies these shuffles due to winning us the game. But when he performs badly and we lose you can't help but wonder if we've ruined a good thing we had.

 

[fallengt]

Jose been shite in the Champion League post his Inter days.
Coward performances at Stamford Bride few years ago rings any bells? Both times Chelsea went out with the draw in first leg and it happened again today with us.

 

[kouroux]

@Vilev: Great post

 

[Catt]

@noodlehair, good post. Looking at stats we do run less than our opponents but how do you solve this? I don't know if it's coming from Mourinho or if it's our players simply not wanting to put in the work.

 

[Nori-]

The problem with the style of football we are playing is even when we win, deep inside, it isn't rewarding. It's not always where you get to, sometimes its how you get there

It's like checking the answers of a cross word, filling it in, showing it to someone for congratulations......knowing inside you don't deserve it.

I'm not saying we should do a Arsenal (previous years), win very little but play attractive football. There has to be a balance, but right now it feels so far on the other side its painful.

 

[Himannv]

I'm one of the few fans that would say that I'm not too unhappy about us losing this. I don't think we have any chance of winning the Champions League this season anyway, so I don't think the result is a big cause for concern. I'm disappointed by the way we played and I think Jose got the starting lineup wrong. Time to learn from this and improve, but the question is, can we?

 

[Cheekiey]

For me it's urgency, ever since SAF retired the urgency in our play has dropped. We have our moments of great attacking football but there were moments of it every game under SAF. I'm not saying any manager we have or will have will do what SAF did but atleast make their team play with some urgency and willingness. I hate this passive approach to not loose, we are Manchester United, yes times have changed but can we go out to win games, to punish teams, to be fearless, to kill the game within the first half ect.

Very few players have that passion in our team, or atleast show it. Just play with some urgency and willingness for Christ sake!

 

[Varun]

Very good OP, agree with pretty much all of it.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

We have no chemistry in center midfield. A large part is the fact Mourimho wont consistently stick to a midfield formation and the other is down to the fact Pogba is our only forward passing midfielder apart from the retiring Carrick.

Furthermore, Mourinho has utterly murdered all chemistry in attack by shifting players around just to accommodate Alexis

 

[Devil may care]

Points 1 and 3 in the OP are particularly spot on, I thought we bought Sanchez to play on the right, instead we bought a 3rd player for the left and he's not played as well as either of them in that position since he got here, it was a totally pointless decision that has effected our two brightest young talents and removed our best attacking combination of Lukaku and Martial. The fact we play like a bunch of strangers feels like a product of how we are coached, we don't play as a team, we are reliant on players pulling out moments of individual quality.

This notion of this result being the reason "spoiled" fans are turning on Jose is horseshit, there are a lot of United fans that have been unhappy for a long time with the way he is turning us into Stoke on steroids no matter the results, just as there are many who will accept what he is doing if the results are good. His revelling in his destroyer reputation and trying to dress up his negative, miserable tactics as something honourable by calling it "humble pragmatism" indicates he will never change.

The performance tonight though spoke of a greater issue than just the boring football he serves up, it was a performance that had no fight, no urgency and wasn't even good defensively, on top of that it featured really simple errors like playing Rashford out of position to accomodate a stars ego, not playing Mata who adds some passing composure against good technical teams, and starting Fellaini in midfield over McTominay who had performed well in the last 2 big games and helped Matic find some form, and it felt like he did it out of spite, as the fans booed him bringing Fellaini on against Liverpool and since he has such a boner for him he started him as a feck you. I expect us to be boring under Mourinho at this point, he's given up any pretence of respecting our traditions the way he claimed he would, but the performance vs Sevilla was just flat out inept from him.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

Here's my problems with Jose.

1) It was picked up fairly early on in his tenure, even on here, that both visibly and statistically, we just don't put the same work rate in as our opponents do. This is an immediate concern as soon as we are struggling to win games, because there has to be a very good reason to try less hard than an opponent, and the only one I can think of is because you're beating them comfortably regardless. Something we do not do. It isn't a cliche...we lost to Chelsea this season, stats showed the difference in ground covered was equivalent to Chelsea having one and a half extra players...not only that, but the game to the naked eye also looked like they did! The same happened against Spurs. It happened against Huddersfield. It happened against Bristol, Manchester City, etc. Do we learn? You look at the game tonight, and we are picking up the ball, and it is genuinely hard to tell if the ref has stopped the game or not, becauuse we just do not wnat to work hard. We go behind and there is a noticable increase in intensity, speed, effort. Wanting to be a successful team, while other teams work harder than you, and you struggle to compete with them, and still when this is indesputably clear, not working as hard as them, falls somewhere between stupidity and just plain deliberate failure. If Jose is getting the players to do this or doesn't think it's an issue, that is completely unacceptable. If he does see it as a problem, he has had long enough that you have to presume he simply doesn't know how to sort it out.

2) Mourinho is a fairly easy manager to sum up. He is a manager you sacrifice things such as principles for, because he brings success. If he doesn't bring success...what does he bring? Not much else when you boil it down. So the judgement comes down to what you think constitutes success. THis season, the very top end of what we cann manage now is top four, and an FA cup. This is the same thing that Jose himself thinks makes Wenger a "loser" ...you also have situations like tonight where sacrificing principles seems to have done the opposite of bringing success. Who in their right mind wants to sacrifice their team playing the football they want, in order to allow the team to lose? He did the same at Chelsea, so you can't even put it down to being a one off or incidental problem. It's at this point, a fundamental flaw, and a pretty fecking damming one at that.

Excellent post. It sums up my views on the situation very accurately, and why last night was the final straw for me. We’re nowhere near challenging for the titles that matter, and I just can’t suffer this mind numbing brand of football unless it at the very least means that we’re in the mix.

 

[Skills]

Here's my problems with Jose.

1) It was picked up fairly early on in his tenure, even on here, that both visibly and statistically, we just don't put the same work rate in as our opponents do. This is an immediate concern as soon as we are struggling to win games, because there has to be a very good reason to try less hard than an opponent, and the only one I can think of is because you're beating them comfortably regardless. Something we do not do. It isn't a cliche...we lost to Chelsea this season, stats showed the difference in ground covered was equivalent to Chelsea having one and a half extra players...not only that, but the game to the naked eye also looked like they did! The same happened against Spurs. It happened against Huddersfield. It happened against Bristol, Manchester City, etc. Do we learn? You look at the game tonight, and we are picking up the ball, and it is genuinely hard to tell if the ref has stopped the game or not, becauuse we just do not wnat to work hard. We go behind and there is a noticable increase in intensity, speed, effort. Wanting to be a successful team, while other teams work harder than you, and you struggle to compete with them, and still when this is indesputably clear, not working as hard as them, falls somewhere between stupidity and just plain deliberate failure. If Jose is getting the players to do this or doesn't think it's an issue, that is completely unacceptable. If he does see it as a problem, he has had long enough that you have to presume he simply doesn't know how to sort it out.

2) Mourinho is a fairly easy manager to sum up. He is a manager you sacrifice things such as principles for, because he brings success. If he doesn't bring success...what does he bring? Not much else when you boil it down. So the judgement comes down to what you think constitutes success. THis season, the very top end of what we cann manage now is top four, and an FA cup. This is the same thing that Jose himself thinks makes Wenger a "loser" ...you also have situations like tonight where sacrificing principles seems to have done the opposite of bringing success. Who in their right mind wants to sacrifice their team playing the football they want, in order to allow the team to lose? He did the same at Chelsea, so you can't even put it down to being a one off or incidental problem. It's at this point, a fundamental flaw, and a pretty fecking damming one at that.

Second point nails it.

 

[Siorac]

We are 2nd in the league but the pragmatism is just not in our DNA,we have a brilliant attack on paper and its mystifying why we play with the handbrake on, something has to give!

Again: it isn't pragmatic if we fail in a quite predictable manner. Mourinho's Chelsea fecked up CL ties against PSG and Atlético at Stamford Bridge in exactly the same way: by playing way too cowardly when all they needed to do was win at home. It's not pragmatic to keep doing something that doesn't work. It's just stupid. It's the opposite of pragmatic.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

4) The knee-jerk reactions from fans calling for Jose's head. Inability to accept the cons of his tactics while enjoying the pros. The fans who just can't accept we aren't a SAF team anymore, we aren't his United anymore. And how they cannot make peace with Jose's shortcomings given how success so far at United in terms of results and silverware. And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.

That post, as I read it, sounds like it comes from someone who has seen us play for the first time this season.
And I’m not saying you have, but that’s how it reads.

This is not the first time we have lost this season, nor is it the first time we have played tumescent football, in fact there have been more tumescent performances than good ones.

This is not the first time we have deserved to lose except on other occasions we have been saved by moments of individual brilliance. Ie DeGea.

People get acccused of kneejerk reactions on here, and yes it does happen a lot, but at what point does it not become kneejerk? At what point does the pragmatic approach towards defeats and performances become a real issue?

I’m not picking at you, I’m mearly pointing out that it can’t just be another one of those days if there are to many of these days.

 

[VinnyRedDevil]

Is it just me or did you find that the players only played with a great sense of urgency after going two goals down?

I am not sure who the players look to when they are playing like shit. Who is the man you look to for leadership and inspiration?

I like Lukaku. He has heart and spirit. He runs his socks off and works for the team. However, he misses a lot of chances before he scores.

I don't think you can blame just the manager. I think the manager and the players are all to blame.

 

[Varun]

We have no chemistry in center midfield. A large part is the fact Mourimho wont consistently stick to a midfield formation and the other is down to the fact Pogba is our only forward passing midfielder apart from the retiring Carrick.

Furthermore, Mourinho has utterly murdered all chemistry in attack by shifting players around just to accommodate Alexis

Yup, everyone thought he was getting sanchez to finally solve our issues at RW but as it turns out, he wanted him just because he was available and shoehorned him on the right and now shoehorns players on the right messing everything up.

Why not just buy mahrez and have him and Mata for the RW and martial/rashford for the left? Such nice balance there. Even now, given what we have, what's the point of playing martial or rashford on the right? They perform poorly to the surprise of no one bar jose himself. Just play them on the left, Sanchez down the middle and Mata out right. Sub out whoever is underperforming instead of this shittiness

 

[OneFootball]

4) The knee-jerk reactions from fans calling for Jose's head. Inability to accept the cons of his tactics while enjoying the pros. The fans who just can't accept we aren't a SAF team anymore, we aren't his United anymore. And how they cannot make peace with Jose's shortcomings given how success so far at United in terms of results and silverware. And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.

Good post. There is the good and bad in most every manager- Klopp is not shy in that department either I can assure you. I think from the perspective of a non-supporter of United, its quite clear that Mourinho does not thrust his players. United have some real quality and a great blend of youth and experience but Mourinho in not prepared to let them play to their strengths but rather pushes them into rolls that will almost annul their individual talent. As a consequence, you’ll have isolated moments of excellence (Rashford on Saturday) but they wont dominate games like you should given the players you have.

 

[Greck]

Again: it isn't pragmatic if we fail in a quite predictable manner. Mourinho's Chelsea fecked up CL ties against PSG and Atlético at Stamford Bridge in exactly the same way: by playing way too cowardly when all they needed to do was win at home. It's not pragmatic to keep doing something that doesn't work. It's just stupid. It's the opposite of pragmatic.

Exactly this. Yesterday continued the same mistake he has been making over and over again in the CL recently

 

[Janson]

Just from today's match thread.

There has definitely been a rise in the number of Martial-bashing comments since Sanchez signed (usually from the same posters to be fair)

Why weren't you quoting those posts after the Liverpool game? Martial wasn't playing and we won against a much better team than Sevilla. Knee jerk?

You aknowledged yourself that Martial loses the ball a lot, I don't see what it is you don't agree with in that post from yesterday.

 

[Damien]

Why weren't you quoting those posts after the Liverpool game? Martial wasn't playing and we won against a much better team than Sevilla. Knee jerk?

You aknowledged yourself that Martial loses the ball a lot, I don't see what it is you don't agree with in that post from yesterday.

I didn't read the caf thread during the Liverpool match. Only quoted them now because yours were the prominent posts that came up during a quick search of Martial in response to Bojan's post.

My problem with your post is more using pretty much every opportunity you can to have a dig at Martial in order to big up Sanchez (sort of thing @Raees was alluding to) like saying:

What the hell is the deal with Sanchez? I've been defending him ever since he got here but he has been loosing the ball at Martial rate levels so far.

Instead of "What the hell is the deal with Sanchez? I've been defending him ever since he got here but he has been losing the ball far too much." or something like that. Martial doesn't lose the ball as much as Sanchez, and Sanchez has pretty much always been like this going back to his Arsenal days. He just ends up making up for it a bit due to his pressing and movement off the ball.

 

[Murray3007]

Personally think Jose has lost the dressing room, no hunger, no desire, tactics as said many times are boring, kin understand them at a lesser club but not one of the biggest clubs in the world, said when we signed Jose if hes not winning then he should be gone because we all knew his football was going to be crap, a million miles of City which makes it even worse, we have some of the best attacking players around yet we cant get the best out of them, we cant even defend set peices, which is a usual trait of Jose. he cant even play players in there best positions, what did he say when he 1st arrived he likes players to play in there own positions, yet right now Valencia, Young, Fellaini, Rashford, Pogba, Lingaard, Mata, all play out of position. many times do we get the ball out in a decent crossing position and we have 1 maybe 2 in the box at the most, watched Watford the other day and they would have 3/4 at least all getting in the box. have more to say but the longer i keep typing the more it pisses me off, so will leave it just now. Get the act together Jose or get out

 

[Judas]

We could very easily see the same tepid half arsed inept performance against on Saturday and can anyone honestly say they'd be surprised? We've barely had a good 90 minutes all season.

 

[jojojo]

It started bad. Fellaini in the side and we play like idiots - it's not even (always) his fault. We start using him as the out ball for every throw in and clearance. No incentive for anyone else to move, because they'll be ignored.

It got worse as the physical formation appeared. Rashford has a good game on the left? Play him wide right and give him instructions that mean he scarcely moves from the touchline and he spends most of the game further back than Fellaini.

I could go through the team but I won't. I will say the net effect was that I understood why Bailly and Smalling kept passing to each other. A big chunk of the team was either sending the ball to them or losing it with a sloppy short or pointless long ball.

If we'd been three up and were just playing the game out quietly so no one was tired or injured for a big match in a couple of days, I'd have understood it. As it was, it was a ridiculous performance. Starting at the top with Mourinho in choosing that team and formation, and continuing through most of the players who looked either asleep or dumb.

Grim night from us and hard to pretend it was out of character. At least most matches we get one decent half, last night there was nothing.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

When the manager creates a culture of fear rather than bravery and initiative, you know he's the wrong one. Fear of losing, fear of mistakes, fear of losing, fear of attack.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Decent effort at the end. But lets look at why United lost this game in the grand scheme of things. First of all Sevilla is not a top team, a good one, but not even a strong second-level one like Roma for example. United should beat them comfortably.
The loss was of course the result of the exact game and it's particularities, things being different even playing like that we could have won, theoretically. But in this loss some major things about current United became quite obvious.

1) Transfer policy.
Sanchez transfer is another example of a needless money splashing purchases that we have seen after Fergie. Is Sanchez a great player? Sure. But should have we gone for him? The answer is no. And not just because it's been month and he is nowhere to be found on the pitch, but more importantly his transfer completely upset the balance of the squad.
Take this exact match. Because he was rather bad against Liverpool in the center, Jose decides to move him to the left. Meanwhile our best player in the that Liverpool game Rashford goes to the right. What do we have against Sevilla? Another nowhere-to-be-found performance from Sanchez and now an average one from Rashford, because he is not really comfortable on the right. So if Sanchez is playing like shit and Rashford was really good why Alexis's position must be prioritized? Because we paid huge money for him in terms of overall package, salary and stuff. Money that even City refused to pay. And he is a big player, with big ego. Before Sanchez came here, Martial was founding his way, was our best player in that period even, now it looks like he might be gone come summer. And all of that for a 29-years old player who can't deliver.

2) Cowardly tactics away from home.
We were not exactly expansive today at OT as well. But this overall situation, Sevilla scores and we are in trouble is a direct result of our detestable tactics away from home against almost every worthwhile side. What decent away games from Jose's United you can remember? Some would say Arsenal one, but honestly Arsenal had like 30 shots then, they were simply unlucky not to score more and we were clinical on the break. It's not like United dominated and played really well, we won, but that's about it. Other than that even our approach to these top away games has been awful. And then we go to Sevilla and play for 0-0. We get this 0-0, thanks to De Gea, but then what? We just put much more pressure on us in the home game. So because of this fear of conceding United messes up the home game plan as well. You can't win CL or league playing like that away from home against strong sides. You must at least try dictate terms, at least in some periods and in some games.

3) Absence of attacking game/plan/style.
Basically United does not know how to attack. Completely. Not like a top team. Sure because we do have good players, even Sahcnez who is looking completely useless right now can occasionally make a good cross, a good through ball and Lukaku or smb else can score. We also have a route one option, a long punt to Lukaku or even Fellaini, they fight for it, we get the second ball or better yet Lukaku just wins the ball for our quick runners and Martial or Rashford score, like it was against Spurs and Liverpool. But ultimately that's Stoke tactics. And while it can be effective in some instances, that not a long-term solution. More importantly there will come a time, like today when a team would need a proper attacking pattern, an attacking play. Players smartly interchanging positions, not simply changing for a couple of minutes like Rash and Alexis today. We need runners from the deep, number 10 connecting players and overloading areas. When United had a ball today in like 80% of the cases the team was completely lost. Nobody simply knew what to do.
It seems like Jose's plan for attack is option A, a long ball to Lukaku or option B, "you think of something yourself". A time where that sort of football could have won you anything has long passed. Sure, United won Europa League, but just look at who we played, we simply "bought" that title actually, in terms of spending power and quality of players we were miles, literal miles ahead of everybody. And even then you can't really say that United played better than Celta, Anderlecht or even Rostov. Or Ajax in the final. In all of these games we were lucky in some moments and never actually comfortably beaten the opponents, like really overplayed them. And that was against much worse, poorer teams. We are currently second in PL as some always like to remember. But if being second best is enough for you, never winning anything major sure United does not need to improve it's attacking play. Simply because we have some good players and can buy more we can maintain 2-nd or maybe 3-rd position.

But if we want to become a great club once again, not just a top-4 team like Arsenal a couple seasons back, we need to rectify all that. Whether Mourinho can or even want to do it i don't know. Whether club's bosses are content with that all things considered i don't know either. But i for one wanna see a different United. And even if means that we need to risk and that club might be out of top-4 for a season or even two, i'd take it. I'd take it to see something like that last title we have won, with crazy wins like against Villa, Newcastle. A team that could have gone to main rivals, City's, home and beat them not 0-1, but 2-3 in the last minute. Our last season under Fergie was not all good and it was not a classic. But the main thing is not even the title itself, but the simple fact that i enjoyed our play, even when United played so-so or badly, i could have felt the team. Right now... I don't. did i enjoy our win against Liverpool? I can't say that. I was relieved we won and happy for Rashford. But other than that, having ball 30% of the time at home, basically not even trying to attack the whole second half. That's not really a "United" for me. I don't think that result is the only thing that matters in football, because you watch the game, you watch for 90 minutes. You don't just browse the final score and say "well done lads". So i would very much encourage a change in current United team. If Jose can himself change or adapt at least fine, if not well it's also fine, but i don't think he will be here much longer.

It was great winning the EL, but agree completely that the opposition were not great and we were lucky to get past Celta Vigo. If we were in it this season we would not have a sniff of winning it because there are better sides and his tactics would prevent us of going through.

 

[haram]

The problem with the style of football we are playing is even when we win, deep inside, it isn't rewarding. It's not always where you get to, sometimes its how you get there

It's like checking the answers of a cross word, filling it in, showing it to someone for congratulations......knowing inside you don't deserve it.

I'm not saying we should do a Arsenal (previous years), win very little but play attractive football. There has to be a balance, but right now it feels so far on the other side its painful.

Chelsea and Liverpool results were great and everyone enjoyed them. Let’s not just say things for the sake of it. Everyone likes to win.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

They had a stand -in RB playing, so have Rashford running at him. He messed up with the lineup. We have good players, but he just doesn't know how to get the best out of them. He really doesn't get United, yes he gets the winning trophies, but does not get that United do things with style and fight and heart.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

@noodlehair, good post. Looking at stats we do run less than our opponents but how do you solve this? I don't know if it's coming from Mourinho or if it's our players simply not wanting to put in the work.

The one thing LvG was right about is that if you keep the ball you do not have to run about like a madman and it conserves energy. We don't run about or keep the ball now. We must be the least worn out team in the league.

 

[haram]

They had a stand -in RB playing, so have Rashford running at him. He messed up with the lineup. We have good players, but he just doesn't know how to get the best out of them. He really doesn't get United, yes he gets the winning trophies, but does not get that United do things with style and fight and heart.

Say what you want about style, but Mourinho’s teams certainly do not lack fight and heart.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Is it just me or did you find that the players only played with a great sense of urgency after going two goals down?

I am not sure who the players look to when they are playing like shit. Who is the man you look to for leadership and inspiration?

I like Lukaku. He has heart and spirit. He runs his socks off and works for the team. However, he misses a lot of chances before he scores.

I don't think you can blame just the manager. I think the manager and the players are all to blame.

Yes because at that point Jose took the shackles off and players were actually allowed to express themselves. The bad team selection and tactics sent out the wrong message from the off and the hoofing it long to Fellaini and Lukaku is just terrible. So i'd say 90% of the blame is on the manager.

 

[littlepeasoup]

The main problem for me is that the upper echelons of the club will not give a sh*t. We'll probably qualify for the CL next season and are continuing to make money hand over fist. Nothing will change.

 

[Bestietom]

Too much tinkering with the team, and too many players gone backwards. There is another window coming up and Mourinho will use this result to get what he wants, but there is no excuse for the way he is treating some players.

Martial, Rashford, Lindelof, Shaw, Herrera,Darmian, Blind, Mata, Pogba, Lingard, Should have Improved more this season, but instead have gone backwards, under the management of Mourinho.

The conservative way he plays football does not suit our tradition. I am sorry to say as I really thought Mourinho was the right man for the job, but taking into account his man management and the defensive minded way he still wants to play football, I have second thoughts.

His tinkering of the team just to suit certain players and trying to make his point annoys me. We did not need Sanchez we needed a Right Winger. Martial and Rashford were doing fine for the left berth, and Mata and Lingard were doing fine for the Number 10 spot. This has upset the whole Rhythm of the team and Mourinho has been caught out trying to change everything to suit him.

I can see a Chelsea coming. The Players are not performing because they cannot understand his method of tinkering with the team every other week and playing men out of position. There will be unrest in the dressing room and a players revolt is not what we want.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Too much tinkering with the team, and too many players gone backwards. There is another window coming up and Mourinho will use this result to get what he wants, but there is no excuse for the way he is treating some players.

Martial, Rashford, Lindelof, Shaw, Herrera,Darmian, Blind, Mata, Pogba, Lingard, Should have Improved more this season, but instead have gone backwards, under the management of Mourinho.

The conservative way he plays football does not suit our tradition. I am sorry to say as I really thought Mourinho was the right man for the job, but taking into account his man management and the defensive minded way he still wants to play football, I have second thoughts.

His tinkering of the team just to suit certain players and trying to make his point annoys me. We did not need Sanchez we needed a Right Winger. Martial and Rashford were doing fine for the left berth, and Mata and Lingard were doing fine for the Number 10 spot. This has upset the whole Rhythm of the team and Mourinho has been caught out trying to change everything to suit him.

I can see a Chelsea coming. The Players are not performing because they cannot understand his method of tinkering with the team every other week and playing men out of position. There will be unrest in the dressing room and a players revolt is not what we want.

I agree with you about picking a side to prove a point, which is terrible. It puts United at risk, just so he can get what he wants and destroys the confidence of the players he throws under the bus. The fact he keeps championing Fellaini really is a worry if we want to be playing better football.

 

[JG3001]

4) The knee-jerk reactions from fans calling for Jose's head. Inability to accept the cons of his tactics while enjoying the pros. The fans who just can't accept we aren't a SAF team anymore, we aren't his United anymore. And how they cannot make peace with Jose's shortcomings given how success so far at United in terms of results and silverware. And how spoiled we are that we take just one bad result to turn on a manager we were celebrating just a few hours ago.

Naa I’ve weighed up all the pros and cons of the tactics, did so back in December. Decided it wasn’t for me, LVG with better players (technically speaking anyway):

-Same boring sideways football
-Clueless in attack
-Favourites getting the nod over in form players
-Players still played out of position
-No settled team or formation over a year down the line
-Fans left quietly astounded by the shite on show then expected to share blame for the teams performance

Personally this is a case of the end does not justify the means. Chelsea, Liverpool and Crystal Palace papered over the cracks, not the tactical masterclass that others seems to rave on about.

The warning signs were there in the EL last season where we certainly rode our luck.

Said this to someone else on another thread, we can finish 2nd and win the FA cup, still should say thanks and part ways come end of the season.

 

[A-man]

I agree with a lot you wrote here @Vilev except one thing: Sevilla is not the kind of team Manchester United should beat comfortably. I think this comes from a great underestimation of the Spanish league and teams. Sevilla played a technical football where they transported the ball rather fast and accurate through United's midfield. I think they were quite good in both games.

Regarding Rashford and Martial. Both are at a point in their careers where they need to play and play a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them move.

 

[Kevin]

Just from today's match thread.

There has definitely been a rise in the number of Martial-bashing comments since Sanchez signed (usually from the same posters to be fair)

Oh it's @Janson

He has been having 'subtle' (not at all) digs at Martial using every opportunity he can since the start of the season. Maybe before but I first noticed him when he said Martial had done nothing after coming on vs Stoke away when he put a guilt edged chance on a plate for Lukaku with a brilliant cross in minutes ago. He just doesn't like him as a player whilst pretending that he's got nothing against him at all and gives other players way more leeway.

Not surprised at all to see those quotes.

 

[littlepeasoup]

I agree with a lot you wrote here @Vilev except one thing: Sevilla is not the kind of team Manchester United should beat comfortably. I think this comes from a great underestimation of the Spanish league and teams. Sevilla played a technical football where they transported the ball rather fast and accurate through United's midfield. I think they were quite good in both games.

Regarding Rashford and Martial. Both are at a point in their careers where they need to play and play a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them move.

Sevilla were okay going forward, but defensively every time we could be bothered to mount an attack they looked like they could be got at. Rom played a few decent cross-field passes that nullified their midfield in one movement. If we had more attacking intent and more desire to really press their back four with intensity we would have had far more chances and probably won the game.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Agree with every single point.

You can tolerate awful football to an extent when it gets results. This clearly isn't and it's painful to watch. Square pegs in round holes and no cohesive style of football, orchestrated by a manager who cares more about his own image than the one of the club he represents.

 

[David Court]

I wonder if Sanchez will ever show his best at United under Mourinho

At Arsenal he benefited from their expansive style of play with wing backs pushed forward in support (Monreal) and close support also from Ozil, Ramsey, Xhaka etc

At United he has less support because of the more 'conservative' style of play and he has less space and support.

With Arsenal his deficiencies (poor passing mainly) could be accommodated

At United they are magnified

Sanchez needs United to change style or players to suit him... unlikely under Mourinho