Jose saving his skin - yet again.. (Manager v Players blame game)

[Mal donaghy]

Before and after each of our last few games it has become the Jose Mourinho roadshow!! Not the kind of publicity our club craves, and his comments are always ambiguous, which is manor from heaven for the press to fuel the ABUs with the player fall outs, the discourse in the dressing room, leading to the proverbial “Crack” in the badge on the back page.

Starting to see why Sir Bobby didn’t want this guy anywhere near our club, it is getting old real quick.

 

[Isotope]

What a stupid post. Just because some of us don’t cry ourselves to sleep every time we don’t win a game we have low standards?

We’ve got 1000000 posts on this forum where reasonable-minded, patient supporters try and explain to the rest of the FIFA-playing, keyboard warrior, never been to OT brigade why buying 6 players (4 under 24) hasn’t led to a glorious treble just yet but it’s obvious that it’s a waste of time.

Can’t be bothered with this forum anymore. Used to be about debating tactics, ideas, player performances and general Utd chat

Now it’s just pages and pages of whingeing

On other side of the coin, we'd have stuck with Moyes for 5 yrs, with fans like you then.

 

[Ban]

On other side of the coin, we'd have stuck with Moyes for 5 yrs, with fans like you then.

How can you compare those 2 situations..

 

[Catt]

No idea Katie. I was just jesting tbh.

I wanted to know if I should feel offended of not

 

[LoCalXT]

Demanding for almost 2 football years solid that your players follow your own negative scribt to the detail – often contradicting players attacking talent and creativity – then 2 days of training with ”expansive football” and all of your players can not adapt for the one match and you go out and blast them in your after match press conference. Beyond anything seen at this club before? Proably.

Precisely !
I can't believe people are actually falling for this. If Klopp or Pep displayed such displayed such behaviour the Caf will be having a field day.

 

[haram]

If we are being compared to Real Madrid fans, a hugely entitled bunch with almost no patience, then it's not the same as being compared to a club that has loads of elite players.

After dwelling on the Caf for quite a lot of time over the last week I was surprised (echo chamber effects) to hear the support for Jose during the game last night.

So was I. It was nice. Was there any songs for the players on the field?

Romero, McTominay, Mata when he came off, Rashford when he came on.

 

[Jazz]

They don' have much of it. They want CL.
How many CL winning managers are available?

Ancelloti is available and won it more times than Mourinho I believe. He'd be a better bet for them.

 

[Garethw]

It seems we have more Mourinho fans in here than Manchester United fans.

@Bastian to still be blaming Moyes and Van Gaal for our ills two years into a regime which has spent nearly half a billion pound is a cowards way out.

What makes it worse is that his own signings are letting him down the most.. the two worst performers are Pogba and Sanchez, the former who looks depressed under his management.
So let's look at those first before we start blaming past purchases especially when one of his favourites is the out of depth Fellaini who he has been begging to stay - so much for being trusted to conduct a clear out of previously poor signings.

Our start was vastly overblown - it was recognised by many that we were benefiting from some very flattering score lines which masked how fortunate we were in certain games where we lacked cohesion and were stumbling upon individual moments. Nevertheless points were rolling in and no one minded too much until Anfield where it was the first exposure of how something wasn't quite right from a tactical perspective and the first proper insight into Mourinhos lack of footballing identity.

Since the game, we've flitted in and out of games, resolutely picking up points with a lot of luck thrown in and the odd game where we have played well. Funnily enough whenever we have had a excellent performance (Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool) - it's been the manager whose then gone on to change the system or personnel, only for us to then lose the momentum garnered from that win.

If I had full control I'd bin him right away. I'd then draw up a list of players who also need to follow him and the sort of players who would desert any manager and just aren't up to it. They would go too in the summer early doors.

Obviously then appoint a new manager but attacking methodology would be the first thing I look for and Champions league experience. That would be the prerequisite.

Another great post mate.

 

[Isotope]

How can you compare those 2 situations..

Why not? It's true when we are just looking for extreme side of the spectrum.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

What makes it worse is that his own signings are letting him down the most.. the two worst performers are Pogba and Sanchez, the former who looks depressed under his management.

Pogba was our best player up until his injury in all fairness and is out of form. Sanchez has been here all of 5 seconds, maybe give it a chance first?

 

[Bastian]

@Bastian to still be blaming Moyes and Van Gaal for our ills two years into a regime which has spent nearly half a billion pound is a cowards way out.

What makes it worse is that his own signings are letting him down the most.. the two worst performers are Pogba and Sanchez, the former who looks depressed under his management.
So let's look at those first before we start blaming past purchases especially when one of his favourites is the out of depth Fellaini who he has been begging to stay - so much for being trusted to conduct a clear out of previously poor signings.

Our start was vastly overblown - it was recognised by many that we were benefiting from some very flattering score lines which masked how fortunate we were in certain games where we lacked cohesion and were stumbling upon individual moments. Nevertheless points were rolling in and no one minded too much until Anfield where it was the first exposure of how something wasn't quite right from a tactical perspective and the first proper insight into Mourinhos lack of footballing identity.

Since the game, we've flitted in and out of games, resolutely picking up points with a lot of luck thrown in and the odd game where we have played well. Funnily enough whenever we have had a excellent performance (Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool) - it's been the manager whose then gone on to change the system or personnel, only for us to then lose the momentum garnered from that win.

If I had full control I'd bin him right away. I'd then draw up a list of players who also need to follow him and the sort of players who would desert any manager and just aren't up to it. They would go too in the summer early doors.

Obviously then appoint a new manager but attacking methodology would be the first thing I look for and Champions league experience. That would be the prerequisite.

I agree with you that some of his own signings are letting him down. But the way Pogba is playing isn't on anyone but himself IMV. He's playing at 50% which is unacceptable at any level of football, no matter if you've got a problem with your manager or not, it is totally unprofessional and a sad state of affairs given his immense talent. Sanchez is suffering from what most other January purchases go through. In hindsight I question the move, especially the length and size of the contract, but I was suckered in at the time like most people. He'll improve no doubt and he's not one of those players who hides, but he's not being effective at all. Hopefully that will change sharpish. Matic isn't flawless, but he's playing every game and been solid and a great purchase. Lukaku is playing for the team and the manager, no question. This team is quite obviously better than the team under Moyes and better than the team under LVG, but you'd rightly say that he's been given money to improve it which he has. Where we differ is what was needed and is still needed.

Not sure that you can isolate the previous years when evaluating Mourinho's United. Granted, he's bought 2 defenders, 2 midfielders and 2 attackers (Lindelof, Bailly, Matic, Pogba, Sanchez/Mkhi, Lukaku - with Zlatan on a free not really playing any part this season). The prices have obviously gone up in the market, so it's not comparable (at least last summer) with previous years. This side still lacks width, in defense and in attack.

I'm curious, which players would you get rid of as soon as the season is finished?

 

[Bastian]

Romero, McTominay, Mata when he came off, Rashford when he came on.

We need to get more of the match-going fans on the Caf

 

[el3mel]

He didnt call out individuals. And the Aberdeen one he expressed regret years later, and put it down to relative inexperience as a manager. As far as the Anfield one, you'd have to point me towards when this happened, since I cant recall it. But he'd never have called out any individual publicly, I can guarantee you that.

Nani after Chelsea loss at league cup in SAF last season ?

 

[Ish]

I wanted to know if I should feel offended of not

No. You? Never!

 

[Oldyella]

Pogba was our best player up until his injury in all fairness and is out of form. Sanchez has been here all of 5 seconds, maybe give it a chance first?

The worry for me is that Sanchez came in, and looked ok for the first few games, and has steadily gotten worse and worse for us.

Likewise, we started the season playing some good stuff, but performances have steadily gotten worse over the season.

Two thirds of our squad just look fed up when they play now. We are a very long way from early season Jose and his "let the horses run" comments.

 

[NK86]

Yes, for the past 5 years Chelsea were were miles ahead of us in terms of the quality of starting XI and results at least before this season when Conte decided to replace Costa with Morata.

Don't have much to say to you about spurs if you say Poch 'immensely' improved them, taking them from ~5th to ~3rd.

I never said our football is great, I never said results are great but if you think it's best for the club to sack him for finishing 2nd, then stop playing FIFA. You assume that us who want him get at least 1 more season are happy with everything we see. Far from it but we can see quite a big progress at least in terms of points in the league which we never had for the last 5 years. If we don't improve next season, sack him I agree. However wanting him gone after this season is just crazy.

Stop playing FIFA. Is that the best retort you have?

As for Spurs, with their budget they have been playing much, much better than us. They have a cohesion in their team. We have spent 300 mil and yet look like haven't got a clue as to how we play. Maybe you should get out of Jose's rear and see that spending money is not the solution to all our problems. If that were the case, let's give the job to any half decent manager because our football has been appalling in any case. A lot of managers would love to spend 500 mil and then claim to be the best in their job.

 

[tenpoless]

These players saw off the magnificent Moyes and Van Gaal.. what cnuts we would have been world beaters if they had tried more under those guys.

Erm, that's not the point. Let's be honest, even if the manager is at fault, the players are also to blame.
They couldn't even string simple passes together ffs! They're professional footballers getting paid a fortune and playing for Manchester United. As I said in other threads, it's a mentality problem as much as a tactical problem.

Also if We're going to replace Jose - Who exactly is available right now, that's also a better candidate to be United manager? I can't think of any.

 

[Raees]

@Bastian Shaw Fellaini Darmian Mata Zlatan Jones... to begin with as I dont think any manager will turn them into first team quality and a year later Smalling Young Valencia Sanchez (If he doesn't perform next year only) And possibly guys like Lindelof too if next manager doesn' t rate him. Sure there are other names too but that's to begin with.

Only players who could potentially grow with a new manager should be kept. No more passengers.

 

[TheReligion]

What's happened to him this year? He's been a quality player for the last 4 years he has won POY on here 2 of the last 4 seasons but now he can't even get a game.

He can't play whilst he's injured mate

 

[Pyro19]

Calling out the players in public again and again will never boost the team Morale no matter which way you spin it.

If you're not happy with the players replace them quietly and quickly. He's constantly shifting the blame from one place to another.

This is the classic 3rd season Mourinho meltdown we're seeing right now and a day will come when everyone will down their tools playing under jose if they haven't already.

I hope the board has some ideas on the next replacement because I don't see Jose lasting beyond 6 more months if things don't dramatically improve somehow.

 

[steffyr2]

@Bastian to still be blaming Moyes and Van Gaal for our ills two years into a regime which has spent nearly half a billion pound is a cowards way out.

What makes it worse is that his own signings are letting him down the most.. the two worst performers are Pogba and Sanchez, the former who looks depressed under his management.
So let's look at those first before we start blaming past purchases especially when one of his favourites is the out of depth Fellaini who he has been begging to stay - so much for being trusted to conduct a clear out of previously poor signings.

Our start was vastly overblown - it was recognised by many that we were benefiting from some very flattering score lines which masked how fortunate we were in certain games where we lacked cohesion and were stumbling upon individual moments. Nevertheless points were rolling in and no one minded too much until Anfield where it was the first exposure of how something wasn't quite right from a tactical perspective and the first proper insight into Mourinhos lack of footballing identity.

Since the game, we've flitted in and out of games, resolutely picking up points with a lot of luck thrown in and the odd game where we have played well. Funnily enough whenever we have had a excellent performance (Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool) - it's been the manager whose then gone on to change the system or personnel, only for us to then lose the momentum garnered from that win.

If I had full control I'd bin him right away. I'd then draw up a list of players who also need to follow him and the sort of players who would desert any manager and just aren't up to it. They would go too in the summer early doors.

Obviously then appoint a new manager but attacking methodology would be the first thing I look for and Champions league experience. That would be the prerequisite.

Usually your post are tl;dr, this one wasn't quite so long so I read it.
I'm curious as to why you don't have full control at Utd yet, since you know exactly how things should be done.
Also, which manager do you have in mind when Utd finally notices you?

 

[TheReligion]

Folly it isn't.

City have spent a lot more and already had Silva, Aguero, Fernandinho and KDB in their squad. Yet just one proper wingback (as Mendy has been out), has done sooo much for that side @Kag.

Let's not forget Kag that Mourinho inherited a 19 year old striker as the only striker at the club, Rooney, Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlin in midfield, failed wingers at full back and Jones, Blind, Smalling at centre half.

You're in complete denial if you can't admit that Mourinho's job was: a) bigger, b) needed more time and c) needed more money.

Everyone underestimated the job he had.

You're speaking alot of sense. The only thing I'm concerned about is the lack of fight as shown in the Sevilla game.

 

[Fully Fledged]

He can't play whilst he's injured mate

He hasn't been injured all season though.

 

[giorno]

Jose would've dropped Jesus for Methuselah and demoted Mary.

José would have sold Jesus to the Romans and then claim he was the real Messiah all along

 

[Raees]

Erm, that's not the point. Let's be honest, even if the manager is at fault, the players are also to blame.
They couldn't even string simple passes together ffs! They're professional footballers getting paid a fortune and playing for Manchester United. As I said in other threads, it's a mentality problem as much as a tactical problem.

Also if We're going to replace Jose - Who exactly is available right now, that's also a better candidate to be United manager? I can't think of any.

Go to the best manager in the world thread .. there are a number.

The English NT had players who were part of heavyweight European sides and then together getting outclassed and outpassed by any Tom Dick and Harry. Because the coaching was poor and the managers too pragmatic.

Not to mention they probably aren't focused on passing well under a manager who doesn't prioritise possession all season or in training and they no longer want to try their best for him because they want him to go. Pogba for all his flaws would not misplace that Sevilla pass if he wanted to truly impress the manager.

 

[TheReligion]

@Bastian to still be blaming Moyes and Van Gaal for our ills two years into a regime which has spent nearly half a billion pound is a cowards way out.

What makes it worse is that his own signings are letting him down the most.. the two worst performers are Pogba and Sanchez, the former who looks depressed under his management.
So let's look at those first before we start blaming past purchases especially when one of his favourites is the out of depth Fellaini who he has been begging to stay - so much for being trusted to conduct a clear out of previously poor signings.

Our start was vastly overblown - it was recognised by many that we were benefiting from some very flattering score lines which masked how fortunate we were in certain games where we lacked cohesion and were stumbling upon individual moments. Nevertheless points were rolling in and no one minded too much until Anfield where it was the first exposure of how something wasn't quite right from a tactical perspective and the first proper insight into Mourinhos lack of footballing identity.

Since the game, we've flitted in and out of games, resolutely picking up points with a lot of luck thrown in and the odd game where we have played well. Funnily enough whenever we have had a excellent performance (Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool) - it's been the manager whose then gone on to change the system or personnel, only for us to then lose the momentum garnered from that win.

If I had full control I'd bin him right away. I'd then draw up a list of players who also need to follow him and the sort of players who would desert any manager and just aren't up to it. They would go too in the summer early doors.

Obviously then appoint a new manager but attacking methodology would be the first thing I look for and Champions league experience. That would be the prerequisite.

Failing to acknowledge that this squad is still a mismatch of three previous managers philosophies is naive and short sighted.

It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Whether you feel more should be being achieved with said players is a matter of opinion.

Pep struggled with what he was left with so bought a whole new back 5 and some. Sadly we don't have the luxury of such a clear out.

 

[TheReligion]

He hasn't been injured all season though.

Well he was playing when he got injured

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Pogba for all his flaws would not misplace that Sevilla pass if he wanted to truly impress the manager.

This makes absolutely zero sense to anyone who has ever played football at any half decent level.

 

[Fully Fledged]

José would have sold Jesus to the Romans and then claim he was the real Messiah all along

Are you saying that Jose=Judas?

 

[Keeps It tidy]

So for good things players get the credit for bad ones Jose takes the blame?
You were saying it differently yesterday.

I was responding to a post where the poster said that the players needed a kick in the backside but, in literally the next sentence said that the club had the best record in the calendar year. It can not be both.

 

[dove]

Stop playing FIFA. Is that the best retort you have?

As for Spurs, with their budget they have been playing much, much better than us. They have a cohesion in their team. We have spent 300 mil and yet look like haven't got a clue as to how we play. Maybe you should get out of Jose's rear and see that spending money is not the solution to all our problems. If that were the case, let's give the job to any half decent manager because our football has been appalling in any case. A lot of managers would love to spend 500 mil and then claim to be the best in their job.

Let's sack Jose, get some clown like Sarri as he is one of the TOP of RedCafe's wishlist, sack him in 2 years winning nothing, repeat. That's a brilliant plan. For the first time since SAF at least it feels we don't go downhill but feck it, we won't win 110 pts in the league to beat City so let's sack him as the season is a disaster. That's FIFA level of planning. Don't bother replying again as I am out of this pointless discussion.

 

[NK86]

Let's sack Jose, get some clown like Sarri as he is one of the TOP of RedCafe's wishlist, sack him in 2 years winning nothing, repeat. That's a brilliant plan. For the first time since SAF at least it feels we don't go downhill but feck it, we won't win 110 pts in the league to beat City so let's sack him as the season is a disaster. That's FIFA level of planning. Don't bother replying again as I am out of this pointless discussion.

Clown like Sarri.
Yeah I now know better not to have a discussion with someone with such "brilliant" insight.

 

[Manny]

José would have sold Jesus to the Romans and then claim he was the real Messiah all along

Its kind of already happening

 

[FujiVice]

Nani after Chelsea loss at league cup in SAF last season ?

It was hardly hanging someone out to dry was it? He responded to an obvious mistake. If someone had given the ball away while trying to beat a man in the final minute on Mourinho's watch, he'd never play again.

 

[Bastian]

@Bastian Shaw Fellaini Darmian Mata Zlatan Jones... to begin with as I dont think any manager will turn them into first team quality and a year later Smalling Young Valencia Sanchez (If he doesn't perform next year only) And possibly guys like Lindelof too if next manager doesn' t rate him. Sure there are other names too but that's to begin with.

Only players who could potentially grow with a new manager should be kept. No more passengers.

I agree with that. That's quite a lot of players. I'd add Blind to that list too.

That leaves Bailly, Matic, Pogba, Lukaku (and Sanchez if he performs, which he will) all Mourinho signings. Jury still out on Lindelof. Those who were already here that you'd hold on to:
De Gea - Jose managed to hold on to
Rojo - Given a new contract by Jose
Blind - Jose doesn't fancy him
Herrera - Gone missing this season
McTominay - Promoted by Jose
Jesse - Given a new contract by Jose
Martial - Hopefully in contract talks (the only player I worry might leave)
And Marcus Rashford.

That doesn't reflect too badly on the manager IMV. If anything, it supports his talk of the squad he inherited. Doesn't mean you don't completely disagree with the way he sets his teams up, but in terms of players, you're probably close to agreeing with Jose

He was never going to come in here and sell 15 players in one go. It's tricky to navigate without disrupting everything. The way he handled Rooney was superb. And it badly needed to be done.

And I agree with the players you mentioned almost entirely. I'd add Herrera to the list, though we'd obviously need to acquire a midfielder in his place. I'd definitely ship out Blind and I'd rather sell both Smalling and Jones and get a leader type centre back in their place, to partner Bailly. Would also hold onto Young and Tony for another year, but as backups to new full backs (not sure if TFM could become our right back).

 

[Fully Fledged]

José would have sold Jesus to the Romans and then claim he was the real Messiah all along

Its kind of already happening

Yeah only he sold him to Wolfsberg.

It amazing how one of the players he discarded at Chelsea he is now lauding as a reason we are not closer to City. He is one of the reasons we're not closer to City though I get that.

 

[el3mel]

It was hardly hanging someone out to dry was it? He responded to an obvious mistake. If someone had given the ball away while trying to beat a man in the final minute on Mourinho's watch, he'd never play again.

He still threw the blame on him for that goal and our exit clearly in the press, and he was right because it was a stupid mistake.

I don't care about manager criticism of a player in the press as long as it's deserved for a terrible mistake or something that deserves. Only problem if he undeservedly criticised him while the player was responsible for nothing.

 

[tenpoless]

Go to the best manager in the world thread .. there are a number.

The English NT had players who were part of heavyweight European sides and then together getting outclassed and outpassed by any Tom Dick and Harry. Because the coaching was poor and the managers too pragmatic.

Not to mention they probably aren't focused on passing well under a manager who doesn't prioritise possession all season or in training and they no longer want to try their best for him because they want him to go. Pogba for all his flaws would not misplace that Sevilla pass if he wanted to truly impress the manager.

That's not exactly a logical excuse since We're talking about professional players playing at the highest level who kicks a ball for a living.

So Pogba decided to shoot himself in the foot then? Doing something that could have a negative impact on the club's European campaign just because He doesn't like the manager? What a child if that's true, fortunately I don't think it's true. The players (Pogba included) just can't be bothered to put in a consistent performance and rise to the occasion, some of them have a weak mentality - sulking when things don't go their way, so untypical for United players.

You can keep changing managers and the same things could repeat itself. I don't want United to give the players too much power, look at Chelsea now.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yeah only he sold him to Wolfsberg.

It amazing how one of the players he discarded at Chelsea he is now lauding as a reason we are not closer to City. He is one of the reasons we're not closer to City though I get that.

He didn't wanna sell Lukaku or KDB though to be fair, just as SAF didn't want to lose Pogba to Juventus.

 

[Raees]

That's not exactly a logical excuse since We're talking about professional players playing at the highest level who kicks a ball for a living.

So Pogba decided to shoot himself in the foot then? Doing something that could have a negative impact on the club's European campaign just because He doesn't like the manager? What a child if that's true, fortunately I don't think it's true. The players (Pogba included) just can't be bothered to put in a consistent performance and rise to the occasion, some of them have a weak mentality - sulking when things don't go their way, so untypical for United players.

You can keep changing managers and the same things could repeat itself. I don't want United to give the players too much power, look at Chelsea now.

I agree. Said it before but Pogba is on last chance saloon for me. If he pulls this shit under new manager he can feck off. My loyalty is to United not some dab merchant. He needs to prove himself too.