Jose saving his skin - yet again.. (Manager v Players blame game)

[Suedesi]

He's always been all about self preservation. That is why I've always been amazed when some here say he spouts the shit he does to take the focus away from the players and onto himself.

Anyways, I don't understand his end game here. He is smart enough to know that if he falls out with half the team, he will be the one that gets the boot. No club can afford to replace half the team. Surely he's not stupid enough to think this is some unique scenario? The smart man that he is, he knows that he's done it before and got sacked. So which club does he think he's off to?

He's got his contract extension / payoff / severance sorted, that's the end game.

 

[Ali Dia]

Feels kinda shitty to say it but if we’d got Klopp and with the budget and backing we give our managers we’d be playing a lot better than we are now. I know he’s not won much but he’s never managed a really top club. his football is great to watch, he develops players and his players love playing for him. This thing with JM is starting to look like the wheels are coming off.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Because someone made the laughable suggestion that Bayren's Bundesliga predicament is somehow comparable to United's Prem adversity.

We have not been close to the league title for a while now so we would not even be the equivalent for Bayern in this discussion.

 

[Raoul]

This is definitively not true. There have been alot of top BL players we weren't able to buy, see Reus (prefered Dortmund), Sané/KDB (snapped up by City), Vidal when he went to Juve (Völler didn't want to sell to us), Diego Ribas (Bremen also didn't want to sell). The last top players we bought from the BL were Lewa, Hummels (wanted to go to us) and Götze (release clause). That's comparable to Sanchez/RVP going to you guys for example. If we wanted a top BL prospect like Bailey/Werner/Pulisic, we'd have to pay (at least) the same price that other clubs would (see Sané/KDB), unless the player himself explicitly wants to go to us (and even then it doesn't work, Vidal promised to go to us but left for Juve the first time).

There's no comparison of the likes of RvP or Sanchez going to United because there are 6 high level teams in England where as you will be lucky on any given year to find two in Germany. Therefore the balance of power is always disproportionately tilted towards a single club.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Complete nonsense. Imagine the Prem without City, Chelsea, Liverpool, and Arsenal where United's only competition each year was Spurs. That's Bayern for you.

Exactly

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

This is definitively not true. There have been alot of top BL players we weren't able to buy, see Reus (prefered Dortmund), Sané/KDB (snapped up by City), Vidal when he went to Juve (Völler didn't want to sell to us), Diego Ribas (Bremen also didn't want to sell). The last top players we bought from the BL were Lewa, Hummels (wanted to go to us) and Götze (release clause). That's comparable to Sanchez/RVP going to you guys for example. If we wanted a top BL prospect like Bailey/Werner/Pulisic, we'd have to pay (at least) the same price that other clubs would (see Sané/KDB), unless the player himself explicitly wants to go to us (and even then it doesn't work, Vidal promised to go to us but left for Juve the first time).

Winning six league titles in a row is something that doesn't happen in competitive leagues. And they're being won by big gaps each season.

 

[giorno]

What does that have to do with the fact that last season was the first time Bayern failed to reach the semi of the UCL in 5 years? That to they were knocked out after taking the eventual winners to extra time, with a man down.

Because of the man down. And it could just as eaily been the other way around. In fact, going back to 2012, bayern have had some serious bad luck in CL. They lost a final to chelsea on penalties after missing a gazillion chances, concending on pretty much the only shot chelsea had all game -from a corner kick-, missing a penalty in extra time...then in 2015 against barcelona they were decimated by injuries. Against atletico again poor finishing and a missed penalty, like against chelsea, again after completely dismantling them. Last season, an incompetent ref. With a bunch of lucky bounces they could have won 5 of the last 6 CL...

 

[Raoul]

Feels kinda shitty to say it but if we’d got Klopp and with the budget and backing we give our managers we’d be playing a lot better than we are now. I know he’s not won much but he’s never managed a really top club. his football is great to watch, he develops players and his players love playing for him. This thing with JM is starting to look like the wheels are coming off.

I just don't see the wheels coming off. The league has been done and dusted for some time so there were minimal expectations there. The CL performance was a disappointment, but I somehow doubt anyone here realistically thought we would win it. Meanwhile we are still in the FA Cup and have moved up 4 league places since last year. Although the entertainment value has been fairly tumescent, its not nearly enough to create a sky is falling scenario that implies the manager's job is in jeopardy. Jose and Ed will simply point to the table and conclude otherwise.

 

[MJJ]

Is there a trophy for that ?

Our fans are celebrating a second place finish and progressing past the group stages tbf

 

[NK86]

The fanbase has always been split. A good number of these people never wanted Jose in the first place and have over the years preferred options like Moyes, Giggs, and Cantona instead.

You are a very good poster and we all know you really like Mourinho, but you seem more and more like a Mourinho fan than a United fan. Not saying this because of that post but the way you seem to absolve him of any mistakes is quite telling.

 

[giorno]

1 win and 2 losses. Sounds like reality to me.

One club build a team that's been consistently among the 3-4 best in the world for the past 6 years. The other has been a dumpster fire for the last 5 years(this season included). The club with the superteam did it on a considerably smaller budget than the the dumpster fire. It's not difficult to understand

 

[Keeps It tidy]

There's no comparison of the likes of RvP or Sanchez going to United because there are 6 high level teams in England where as you will be lucky on any given year to find two in Germany. Therefore the balance of power is always disproportionately tilted towards a single club.

Liverpool have challenged for the title like twice in the last 10 seasons. Spurs were mostly a upper mid table club until the last 3 years, Arsenal have not challenged for the title in who knows how long. There is not consistently 6 high level teams in England.

 

[JPRouve]

You are a very good poster and we all know you really like Mourinho, but you seem more and more like a Mourinho fan than a United fan. Not saying this because of that post but the way you seem to absolve him of any mistakes is quite telling.

He has been fairly critical in the last few weeks, which surprised me.

 

[Raoul]

One club build a team that's been consistently among the 3-4 best in the world for the past 6 years. The other has been a dumpster fire for the last 5 years(this season included). The club with the superteam did it on a considerably smaller budget than the the dumpster fire. It's not difficult to understand

The CL performances other than this year aren't really Mourinho's problem are they. They are the result of having made bad managerial choices before him. So far Jose has won the European Cup he was entered into last year and disappointed in this one.

 

[JDoe]

Winning six league titles in a row is something that doesn't happen in competitive leagues. And they're being won by big gaps each season.

I've never said that our league was as competitive as the PL. The only thing I am pointing out is that people here tend to think BL clubs are OUR feeder clubs and we have the best pick out of their best players which is completely nonsense. We'd have to pay the same price as foreign clubs usually to get those players, simple as that, or else the likes of KDB and Sané would be Bayern and not City players.

 

[johanovic]

Winning six league titles in a row is something that doesn't happen in competitive leagues. And they're being won by big gaps each season.

So given your assessment winning the league 6 times in a row does not happen in competitive leagues what about the 13 PL titles we won from 93 to 2013 does that also mean the English league was not competitive at times? We won 5 out of 7 from 2007 to 2013 for example. That must have been by your logic because the league was not competitive??? In my mind United had to work their socks off for each title and play to the best of their ability. Guess what, the same applies in Germany, go figure.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Liverpool have challenged for the title like twice in the last 10 seasons. Spurs were mostly a upper mid table club until the last 3 years, Arsenal have not challenged for the title in who knows how long. There is not consistently 6 high level teams in England.

I'll quote the statistic again. No club in English top flight history has ever won the league more than three times in a row. That includes all conquering Liverpool and United teams. Three was the limit. Also Leeds/Forest, Arsenal, Chelsea, etc. This season Bayern will have won the Bundesliga six times in a row.

Draw your own conclusions but I think it's easy to see that the Bundesliga is terrible in term of competitiveness.

 

[Raoul]

Liverpool have challenged for the title like twice in the last 10 seasons. Spurs were mostly a upper mid table club until the last 3 years, Arsenal have not challenged for the title in who knows how long. There is not consistently 6 high level teams in England.

That's because they are playing in a significantly more competitive league where the power is fairly evenly distributed amongst the top clubs. Dortmund would also have not fared any better than the likes of Spurs or Liverpool have in recent years if they happened to play in England.

 

[JPRouve]

That's because they are playing in a significantly more competitive league where the power is fairly evenly distributed amongst the top clubs. Dortmund would also have not fared any better than the likes of Spurs of Liverpool have in recent years if they happened to play in England.

No, that's because they have been shit. Particularly Arsenal and Liverpool.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

So given your assessment winning the league 6 times in a row does not happen in competitive leagues what about the 13 PL titles we won from 93 to 2013 does that also mean the English league was not competitive at times? We won 5 out of 7 from 2007 to 2013 for example. That must have by your logic because the league was not competitive??? In my mind United had to work their socks off for each title and play to the best of their ability. Guess what, the same applies in Germany, go figure.

13 titles spread out over two decades which proves that even the best United sides under the best United manager in the club's best period in history were stifled by a competitive league which meant winning more than three league titles on the bounce wasn't possible. Arsenal, Chelsea, City all challenged and during 05-08 Liverpool, City, Arsenal, United etc were making the semis and finals of the CL on a relatively regular basis. There's no comparison to be found.

 

[johanovic]

13 titles spread out over two decades which proves that even the best United sides under the best United manager in the club's best period in history were stifled by a competitive league which meant winning more than three league titles on the bounce wasn't possible. Arsenal, Chelsea, City all challenged and during 05-08 Liverpool, City, Arsenal, United etc were making the semis and finals of the CL on a relatively regular basis. There's no comparison to be found.

Respond to the 5 in 7 then? No of course you can not do that.

 

[MDFC Manager]

He's got his contract extension / payoff / severance sorted, that's the end game.

Always has been, hasn't it.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Respond to the 5 in 7 then? No of course you can not do that.

I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[giorno]

Draw your own conclusions but I think it's easy to see that the Bundesliga is terrible in term of competitiveness.

Personally i think the biggest problem there was bayern. They would have won the PL 5 times in a row from 2012/13 to last season imho

 

[johanovic]

I don't know what you're talking about.

We won 5 out of 7 from 2007 to 2013 for example. That must have by your logic because the league was not competitive??? In my mind United had to work their socks off for each title and play to the best of their ability. Guess what, the same applies in Germany, go figure.

 

[Tapori]

Backing Jose on this one; in the era of player dominance and agents.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

We won 5 out of 7 from 2007 to 2013 for example. That must have by your logic because the league was not competitive??? In my mind United had to work their socks off for each title and play to the best of their ability. Guess what, the same applies in Germany, go figure.

Oh, yeah you're talking nonsense. That's why I didn't pick up on that part of your post.

13 in twenty years, broken up by periods of other clubs dominating in spells (Blackburn, Arsenal, that "Invincibles" side, Chelsea under Mourinho, Rafa's Liverpool, a state funded club in Man City). Five in seven broken up by Chelsea and City. There's no equivalence whatsoever.

Personally i think the biggest problem there was bayern. They would have won the PL 5 times in a row from 2012/13 to last season imho

I doubt it.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Personally i think the biggest problem there was bayern. They would have won the PL 5 times in a row from 2012/13 to last season imho

And this whole discussion is moot since this is the first time since Ferguson left that we are even close to the title. And we are not even that close.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Backing Jose on this one; in the era of player dominance and agents.

Because Mourinho is not the type to have close relationships with agents.

 

[Cheesy]

We won 5 out of 7 from 2007 to 2013 for example. That must have by your logic because the league was not competitive??? In my mind United had to work their socks off for each title and play to the best of their ability. Guess what, the same applies in Germany, go figure.

There's plenty of quality teams in Germany but Bayern have generally walked the league every year, unlike in the PL where we were consistently challenged to near the end between 06-09, and where we weren't able to retain it at all from 09-13.

Additionally, while Bayern are able to buy the best players from any clubs below them for the most part and haven't really had anyone challenging their financial dominance, we were generally being outspent by Chelsea and then City. We still had plenty of pull but regularly had to compete with them for top players.

Bayern before their most recent spell of titles would be more analogous to Fergie's United - always thereabouts and generally the best, but being challenged by a variety of teams.

 

[Hitchez]

Personally i think the biggest problem there was bayern. They would have won the PL 5 times in a row from 2012/13 to last season imho

Doubt that very much. If they joined the PL they immediately stop becoming the de facto choice for top Bundesliga players. Weakens them straight off the bat.

The PL is hell of a lot more competitive than BL. Not even close.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Oh, yeah you're talking nonsense. That's why I didn't pick up on that part of your post.

13 in twenty years, broken up by periods of other clubs dominating in spells (Blackburn, Arsenal, that "Invincibles" side, Chelsea under Mourinho, Rafa's Liverpool, a state funded club in Man City). Five in seven broken up by Chelsea and City. There's no equivalence whatsoever.


I doubt it.

This year's City are the only one you could argue would finish above Bayern.

 

[Cheesy]

Backing Jose on this one; in the era of player dominance and agents.

I wouldn't really say this is some distinct 'era' of player dominance though as opposed to the way football is in the post-Bosman era; top players have a lot of pulling power and while managers need to be assertive they also need to recognise that they're done once the dressing room turns against them. That's the reality of it and it isn't something that will change.

 

[johanovic]

Oh, yeah you're talking nonsense. That's why I didn't pick up on that part of your post.

13 in twenty years, broken up by periods of other clubs dominating in spells (Blackburn, Arsenal, that "Invincibles" side, Chelsea under Mourinho, Rafa's Liverpool, a state funded club in Man City). Five in seven broken up by Chelsea and City. There's no equivalence whatsoever.


I doubt it.

So when bayern win 6 in a row it´s because of a mickey mouse league. When United do win 5 out of 7 it´s not. Every League title is earned by hard work and talent and perhaps if you look at the result´s in the CL for the past years it´s remarkable how teams from those inferior leagues continue to win the CL. Yeah but that´s probably nonsense also, right? Perhaps the plain truth is that the strength of the PL is not what it´s cracked up to be?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

So when bayern win 6 in a row it´s because of a mickey mouse league. When United do win 5 out of 7 it´s not.

Yes. That's the entire point. 6 in a row says a league is not competitive. Even the best Barca team which some say is the greatest club side in history only managed 3 in a row.

 

[Raoul]

So when bayern win 6 in a row it´s because of a mickey mouse league. When United do win 5 out of 7 it´s not. Every League title is earned by hard work and talent and perhaps if you look at the result´s in the CL for the past years it´s remarkable how teams from those inferior leagues continue to win the CL. Yeah but that´s probably nonsense also, right? Perhaps the plain truth is that the strength of the PL is not what it´s cracked up to be?

You could make this argument pre-2005 but the dynamics of the league have changed dramatically since Sugardaddy ownership started with Abramovich and Sheikh Mansoor. AFAIK there are no foreign owners (because its not allowed) in Germany.

 

[ti vu]

Feels kinda shitty to say it but if we’d got Klopp and with the budget and backing we give our managers we’d be playing a lot better than we are now. I know he’s not won much but he’s never managed a really top club. his football is great to watch, he develops players and his players love playing for him. This thing with JM is starting to look like the wheels are coming off.

I won't debate the opinion part, but the bolder part is debatable. Coutinho moved to a less sexy Barcelona of recent time, even that threw away the chance to play CL and taking risk of not getting best form r WC since he has to adapt to Barcelona than familiar environment. Emre Can has been plotting a move away to Juventus who ain't very sexy and Allegri ain't exactly nice guy.

Then you looked at Benteke, Sturridge, Origi, Sakho(this guy on high wage and could have helped last season but completely frozen out of the team)... Again some players ain't exactly interested in joining Klopp team, even though you can say they might have been better:Mkhi, Gotze, Aubameyang, Gundogan, Sane, Lemar.... (all reported to saying they had offer from L'pool).

Perhaps it's another case of grass being greener on the other side?

 

[MJJ]

Yes. That's the entire point. 6 in a row says a league is not competitive. Even the best Barca team which some say is the greatest club side in history only managed 3 in a row.

A better way to show that bundesliga is not competitive will be the gap from second, as otherwise winning 6 in a row and 5 in 7 years(with one title lost on goal difference) are pretty much the same thing.

 

[johanovic]

You could make this argument pre-2005 but the dynamics of the league have changed dramatically since Sugardaddy ownership started with Abramovich and Sheikh Mansoor. AFAIK there are no foreign owners (because its not allowed) in Germany.

We have been throwing money around despite the Chelsea and City but we just seem to buy much worse than a lot of other clubs, for example Bayern. We play 2 old wingers as fullbacks(both turning 33 this year), we have no genuine wingers and instead play AM like Mata there or strikers like Rashford and Martial. We buy similar kind of players for similar positions and then struggle to find a place for them in the team. If I compare this with Pep he went out and got 3 good fullbacks this year and in front of them he has Sane and Sterling on each wing, that for me made the difference from last season regarding City. We seem to buy certain players because of their name and then try to find out afterwards where best to play them. I´m saying if you compare this to how Bayern buy then they buy fewer players for certain positions and develop their own talent. That´s the blueprint I would like us to follow.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

as otherwise winning 6 in a row and 5 in 7 years(with one title lost on goal difference) are pretty much the same thing.

They really aren't. We only retained the league on one occasion during that timeline, because there was constant competition (we lost the league on goal difference and by a very slim margin against Chelsea).

As to your first point, Bayern are averaging 12-15 pt leads at the end of the season over that period iirc.

If he wants to start from '06, then we won it three times in a row but never easily. The teams we beat to the title were going deep in the CL. Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea all made finals in and around this period.