Jose saving his skin - yet again.. (Manager v Players blame game)

[tjb]

Top post. The players must take accountability. If we fire the manager, the new bloke will do fine... until he doesn't at which point there will be more moaning and hissyfits until spoilt, knee-jerk entitled Manchester United consumers force out the new bloke because their toy doesn't work immediately to oliking (daddy daddy it's not good enough, buy me a different one!) And the cycle keeps going until we become Liverpool.

Its been 3 managers now. I said when we got Mourinho that if the players aren't good under him, then its the players and it was not Van Gaal. Then I noticed something earlier late last season that made me think. The period when we lost Pogba, in the small games we looked like LVG's United. Not just in the fact that we were boring, but in how slow we were in moving the ball across the pitch and not just in defence. I honestly believe that if Van Gaal took over another team today, his team would look far more exciting that United currently look like. Why? Because i feel the United players did not have quality or tactical understanding to perform. I feel Pep would also face a similar fate if he came here as well. It comes down to a lack of talent, and unfortunately we don't only have players who lack quality, but also lack the work rate or brains to perform effectively.

 

[Raees]

If the players don't react well to this, screw them. Maybe the tactics aren't great for you all but the lack of energy and heart is what kills me. Most of us have had arsehole coaches and kind coaches, but did you sulk and your attitude turn to shite if you don't like your coach?

I know it's his job to get the most out of them but maybe he's exasperated as I am when they don't fricken show any urgency out there.

Where was the urgency at Anfield? or Sevilla away? or even the second half of the Liverpool game? just a small sample of games where the lack of urgency comes directly from the manager.

Liverpool have many mediocre players at their disposal, but how come they show more urgency than ours?

We've appointed Moyes (defensive reactive manager), Van Gaal (slightly proactive, but encouraged sterile possession) followed by Mourinho (very defensive and reactive manager) and rather like the english national team which selected Sven (pragmatic manager) McLaren (clown out his depth) and Capello (defensive reactive manager) we have basically cultivated an environment in which it is okay to not get on the ball and do something with it, because as long as you are in good defensive shape that is all that matters, or making safe passes and coming up with the occasional attack to try and grind out a win.

Yes this mentality might now actually have infiltrated many of our players, but who is to blame for that? for me it is the Board with its shambolic choice of managers and Mourinho for me is the latest in the line of not extracting that urgency and attacking vibrancy we need from the current set of players. He encourages lack of urgency in many games, and now we are to believe he's been asking them all along due to his two days of coaching attacking football.

Also I made this post, before recent meltdown but it is even more relevant now post Sevilla. This is not the work of a genius trying to galvanise the squad, it is a rat trying to desert a sinking ship of his own making.

MOURINHO'S COLLAPSE AT MADRID

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Special-One-Dark-Side-Mourinho-ebook/dp/B00EXB7046

• Favouritism to Coentrao who he brought in to replace Marcelo (the world's best left back) even though he was not training properly, performing badly and an outcast in the squad.. he was seen as one of his trusted players (double standards)
• Complete fall out with the likes of Ramos and Casillas due to the whole you must not fraternising with the enemy at NT meet ups
• Destruction of his relationship with Ronaldo.. they were close at first due to Mendes connection, but Ronaldo detested his defensive approach, and sensed how rest of squad was not happy with him and decided to distance himself and develop his bond with the spanish contingent
• Continuous theme of the failure to coach attacking strategies against teams which were parking the bus and nullifying their counter-attacking football, players not happy with how Barca getting lots of praise and how they were getting little to no education on how to play patterns of play when facing smaller sides
• Growing divide between him and Mendes (who aligned himself with Ronaldo) and put less faith in Jose (hence the lack of Mendes clients you see being bought by Jose these days)
• Peculiar love/hate relationship with Perez. Perez at times bent over backwards to back him and was very reluctant to part with him and tried his best to ensure the fractious relationship he had with his players was smoothed over. In the end, his position was untenable and he faced mutiny from most of the squad.
• Similar to Bayern under Ancellotti, the players at times got together and formed their own strategies/decided to pull together for the good of the team prior to key games and Jose was increasingly becoming a puppet manager
• Jose was generally playing up alot, using mind games on the squad, random selections/dropping of players and vilifying players in order to make points to the media (Pedro Leon - kept him for years just to use him as a tool to bully/Benzema).. many of the players saw through it and didn't see the logic behind it, which led to them not respecting and distrusting him
• Likes of Essien were completely isolated by the squad, due to their perceived notion that these players were 'Mourinho's' men and not to be trusted, as they'd feed info back to the manager.

Failure to come up with attacking strategies

“I score and I win, you score and you don’t know if you win,” is the essence of Mourinhoball. If you score first, I might equalise. But if I score first, it’s good night, because I’ll shut down the game and only venture forward to prey on your mistakes.

Madrid “trained to counteract imaginary adversaries who wanted the ball and who were prepared to put a lot of players in the opposition’s half. Throughout the entire summer [of 2010] he did not devise a single plan for static attacking” – that is, the kind of clever, patient, probing attacks that would unlock deep defences.

New-found obsession with championing his own brand of football over winning (some from Torres/Some from Wilson)

Mourinho at Madrid was not motivated merely by winning – which had been almost his sole objective elsewhere – but by the desire to do so in his way, to establish himself as a tactical pioneer. Mourinho spoke repeatedly of the trivote, his triangle of aggressive, hard-tackling midfielders who could either win the ball back high up the pitch or offer an impenetrable block in front of the defensive four. Mourinho was so attached to this system that he played it at times when, as Torres’s sources saw it, it was of limited benefit and meant using players out of position. It was as though Mourinho was determined above all else to promote his own legend.

The Champions League semi-final was played out in a sulphurous atmosphere, largely of Mourinho’s making. Madrid did little but spoil: even if Barça did dive and whinge, at its heart the rivalry had become about one team passing and dribbling, the other kicking and brawling; light against dark, football against anti-football. In Mourinho’s 17 matches against Barcelona as Madrid manager, his side committed 346 fouls to Barcelona’s 220.

According to Torres, Mourinho laid out a simple seven-point plan for winning big games:

1) The game is won by the team who commits fewer errors.

2) Football favours whoever provokes more errors in the opposition.

3) Away from home, instead of trying to be superior to the opposition, it’s better to encourage their mistakes.

4) Whoever has the ball is more likely to make a mistake.

5) Whoever renounces possession reduces the possibility of making a mistake.

6) Whoever has the ball has fear.

7) Whoever does not have it is thereby stronger.

This is the antithesis of the Barçajax approach, a categorical rejection of the possession-based, proactive approach of Guardiola and his ilk. It was precisely how Inter had played in that Champions League semi-final but there was always a sense at Madrid that it was somehow unworthy of the club.

The bitterness between Guardiola’s Barça and Mourinho’s Madrid carried over into the following season, and was exemplified by a Barça-Madrid match that ended with two red cards in injury time and a brawl in which Mourinho poked Tito Vilanova, the Barça assistant coach, in the eye from behind. It was an act of cowardice and petulance that would have profound consequences.

On 7 May 2013, towards the end of a disappointing season for Madrid, Mourinho arrived alone at the Sheraton Madrid Mirasierra to prepare for a league game against Malaga, having refused to travel with his players after accusing them of disloyalty. A contingent of the Ultras Sur, who saw themselves as Madrid’s most devoted fans, were waiting for Mourinho with a banner that proclaimed their love for him. There was effectively a state of open warfare between Mourinho and the club captain Iker Casillas. That Mourinho’s fractious time at the club was coming to an end was not in any real doubt. And for Mourinho, things were about to get much worse.

The Tale of the Mole

The Times then went on to tell the following incredible story about the breakdown between Mourinho and his Real Madrid players:

At 5pm on 16 April 2011, shortly before Madrid’s home league match against Barcelona, the newspaper Marca reported in its online edition that Madrid would play Pepe in midfield, along with Khedira and Alonso. The team selection was unprecedented: Casillas, Ramos, Albiol, Carvalho, Marcelo, Pepe, Khedira, Alonso, Di María, Ronaldo and Benzema.

The 1-1 draw did not help the home team’s title chances but the crowd applauded their team off with a certain relief, Barça’s last couple of visits having ended with scores of 0–2 and 2–6, and filed out of the stadium reasonably content. Not so Mourinho.

He waited for the team in the dressing room before issuing a torrent of accusations and insults that distorted his face until he began to sob loudly: “You’re traitors. I asked you not to speak with anyone about the team selection but you’ve betrayed me. It shows that you’re not on my side. You’re sons of bitches.

“The only friend I have in this dressing room is Granero . . . and I’m not even sure that I can trust him any more. You’ve left me all on my own. You’re the most treacherous squad I’ve had in my life. Nothing more than sons of bitches.”

Casillas did not wait for the outburst to finish. He pretended that nothing was happening, turned around and went to the shower; he was not the only one who ignored the commotion. But Mourinho was filled with such intense emotion that he grabbed a can of Red Bull and hurled it against the wall. It exploded and drops of the sugary energy drink ran down the faces of those nearest to him.

Squatting on the ground — some say he was kneeling — he rattled off a further series of insults, then, getting up, he wiped the tears from his face and announced that he was going to speak with Pérez [Real’s president] and Sánchez [a director] because they would be able to find the mole. He promised reprisals and also made an analogy between martial law and football: “If I’m in Vietnam and I see you laugh at a mate, I’d grab a gun with my own hands and kill you. Now it’s you yourselves who have to look for the one that leaked the line-up.”

Betrayal of his sergeant 'Pepe'

For Mourinho, Pepe's switch of sides had perhaps been the ultimate betrayal. The coach has stood by his defender through a series of on-pitch controversies, including his dismissal in the 2010-11 Champions League semi-final against Barcelona, a stamp on Lionel Messi's hand the following season and many more incidents beside. The Portugal defender, more than any other player, seemed to represent his boss's 'us-against-the-world' siege mentality as battles began on the pitch. He was in his coach's camp, not Iker's, and had even been tipped to become one of the 50-year-old's first signings at Chelsea this summer. Not now.

Pepe told Canal Plus that Casillas deserved more respect, after the Portuguese had taken another swipe at the goalkeeper on Friday by saying he should have signed Diego Lopez back in 2011. "The boss's quotes were not the most suitable," the defender said. "Iker is an institution for both Real Madrid and Spain."

Pepe was perhaps Mourinho's greatest ally, but that changed after the Portugal defender stuck up for Casillas at the weekend.

The defender has been publicly criticised by his coach on several occasions and is unhappy at being singled out by the Madrid boss.

Essentially blamed for the side's poor start in La Liga, Madrid's star man is losing patience with his countryman too.
But on Tuesday, Mourinho hit back. And how. The Portuguese told the assembled Madrid media that his defender was unhappy at losing his place in the side. "Pepe has a problem," he said. "And his name is Raphael Varane."

"That's the whole story. It isn't easy for a man aged 31 with a lot of experience behind him to be blown out of the water by a kid of 19. It's very simple. The problem is very simple. Pepe's life has changed."

So has Mourinho's. Respected and admired at first for an authoritarian approach rarely seen by bosses at Madrid, the Portuguese is losing friends fast at the Bernabeu and, according toMarca, he has the unconditional support of just three first-team footballers: Diego Lopez, Luka Modric and Michael Essien.

Those three, of course, remain grateful for their Madrid moves: Diego Lopez was, until recently, a Sevilla substitute, Modric made the significant step up from Tottenham after Mourinho convinced Real to splash big cash in the summer and Essien is a player who refers to the Portuguese as 'daddy'.

Meanwhile, even previous staunch supporters such as Alvaro Arbeloa and Jose Callejon have lost patience with their coach this term, with Mourinho's treatment of Casillas the final straw for much of the first-team squad.

On Tuesday, Mourinho explained why he preferred Diego Lopez to Iker in what seemed an honest appraisal of the two gifted goalkeepers. "I like Diego more because he plays more with his feet, he comes off his line and dominates in the area. Iker is a fantastic goalkeeper between the posts, but I like a different kind of goalkeeper."

At face value, it sounds like a reasonable and understandable explanation. After all, Diego Lopez has been brilliant since his January move and arguably cannot be dislodged on current form. However, there is much more to it than that.

In 2011, Mourinho claimed Casillas was the world's best goalkeeper and also backed the Spain skipper to claim the Ballon d'Or. Even then, there had been problems between the pair, yet the relationship remained rosy - at least for the most part.

The Portuguese, however, has long believed the keeper to be in a privileged position at Madrid and has seriously questioned the 31-year-old's commitment in training and during matches. He is also well aware, and uncomfortable, that the player's partner - sports journalist Sara Carbonero - is privy to inside information on the goings-on behind the big white walls at the Bernabeu. In January, Carbonero revealed what many had suspected when she told Mexican station Televisa of divisions behind the scenes between Mourinho and the players. And it takes little imagination to identify her source.

Mourinho may genuinely prefer Lopez to Casillas, but the club captain was originally dropped in December for Antonio Adan, who has long since disappeared from the first-team radar. Back then, Mourinho spoke of a 'comfort zone', a player without competition for his place, yet Casillas remains convinced he was left out for personal reasons.

He and Sergio Ramos are the two players who have stood up to their coach more than the rest and in January, Marca claimed that the pair had told Florentino: "Presi, in June, either Mourinho leaves, or we will..."

Ramos has had his own problems with Mourinho and after public criticism from the Portuguese following a defeat at Sevilla, he questioned his coach's decision to wash the team's dirty linen in public - and was duly dropped for the Champions League clash at home to Manchester City days later. The pair's relationship has remained rocky ever since.

But perhaps the final straw for Madrid fans came when Mourinho questioned Cristiano Ronaldo on Friday. "We started the league [in a] sad [state]," he said, in a clear reference to his player's problems at the beginning of the campaign. "And because we were sad, we lost points."

However, Madrid fans will recall that the day Ronaldo revealed his 'sadness', he also scored both goals in a 2-0 win over Granada. Back in September, the forward may have been slightly below his brilliant best, but the whole team was in a sorry state and blaming Cristiano appears a cowardly act from Mourinho, especially just three days after the former Manchester United forward had placed his body on the line by playing when unfit in the Champions League semi-final second leg against Borussia Dortmund.

Already angered by the treatment of Casillas, Madrid fans simply could not tolerate criticism of the player who has carried them to their greatest heights over these last three campaigns and duly jeered Mourinho on Saturday when his name was announced at the Bernabeu. Now, with almost all of his players against him and many more fans turning their backs as well, the Portuguese's final days in Spain are approaching. And even if they do claim the Copa in nine days' time, it will be far from a happy ending for Mourinho in Madrid.

 

[haram]

Then you ask how big a part did Casillias’ ego and selfishness play a part in the dressing room divide? He was a rat and soon left the club as well. Maybe a Real fan can explain it more. Stuff I have read make Casillias look extremely bad. The way he left was not normal either.

Leaking stuff about the dressing room via your journalist girlfriend is behaviour of a traitor.

 

[Bobcat]

I am sort of on the fence regarding this as Mou has said/done some things both here and in past clubs that does not sit right with me, but then again if we sack him, then what?

The post-Fergie era was always going to be incredibly difficult and the Moyes disaster just made things even worse. Imo Van Gaal actually deserves some credit for stabilizing the ship, but except Martial his transfers where dire and so was the football on display. I think the Ferguson era made fans believe we have some divine right to walk the PL title every other year and compete for the CL, we don't. Could things have been better? Sure. Mouhrino is usually a guarantee for instant success and we did not win the PL last year and we won't this year either. The Sevilla game was pathetic and some of the football on display has been shit.

But all things taken into account, what we need now is stability and even though Mou sure is flawed i don't see how sacking him will benefit us either in a short or a long perspective as there are no good alternative out there on the market right now. There also seems like there is a narrative around that Mou leaves turmoil and chaos in his wake when he leaves a club. Does he really?

Madrid did just fine and Chelsea won the league the year after he left. Even if we are super pragmatic we could let Mou finish his reuilding job and then sack him, because its pretty clear he is not done just yet.

----------------De Gea--------------
???-----Bailly--------??----------???
----------------Matic----------------
----------Pogba*-----???-----------
---Sanchez----Lukaku----Martial/Rash

*If he gets his shit together

The way i see it, these are the only players we currently have that truly are the class we need and except De Gea, Martial and Rashford these are all Mouhrino players. I know Valencia is a fan favorite for his loyalty, but lets not kid ourselves him and Young are not very good fullbacks. At CB Bailly is two classes above the rest which are all very injury/error prone.

In my eyes Mouhrino needs at least one more window and one more year to prove himself. If we stagnate or regress next year we might entertain the thought about sacking him, but i sincerely believe sacking him now would be a mistake.

 

[Jonno]

Bayern, Barca and Real also constantly change their managers hell everywhere managers change a ton.

They’ve done that since before Fergie was at United.

 

[Jonno]

Only Jose definitely has control over transfer policy of the managers you named. And the likes of Zidane, Valderde, Heyneckes, Allegri, Emery, Montella, Francesco etc have very little control over transfer policy.

Pep hasn’t signed his players?

 

[el3mel]

And they only have 2 league titles in 3 years to show for it..... And I do not think just "backing the manager" would have fixed the issues they had in Mourinho's third season or the season they are having now.

Difference is Chelsea and Madrid, especially Madrid, got a core of very good players and just wanted a coach to train. The current Chelsea team is poor, but look at their team when they were sacking managers nonstop and you'll see it was mostly a complete lacking coach. Madrid can keep sacking managers everyday and they will still win as they have an already built team and just need a coach to train them.

We needed a buildup after SAF left and fecked it up with Moyes appointment, and what's happening latter is all due to us fecking this buildup, now each manager comes with new ideas and new signings different to the one before him while the team has literally no code

We're not at the point we can keep sacking managers and will still win anyway. We need stability with whatever manager till we finish a buildup and at least reach a similar squad to the Chelsea of 2005-2010. At the moment we will keep sacking managers while each one fecks up the team squad more than the former one and doing more damage than benefit.

 

[roonster09]

Only Jose definitely has control over transfer policy of the managers you named. And the likes of Zidane, Valderde, Heyneckes, Allegri, Emery, Montella, Francesco etc have very little control over transfer policy.

Klopp, Pep have complete control too.

 

[haram]

Difference is Chelsea and Madrid, especially Madrid, got a core of very good players and just wanted a coach to train. The current Chelsea team is poor, but look at their team when they were sacking managers nonstop and you'll see it was mostly a complete lacking coach. Madrid can keep sacking managers everyday and they will still win as they have an already built team and just need a coach to train them.

We needed a buildup after SAF left and fecked it up with Moyes appointment, and what's happening latter is all due to us fecking this buildup, now each manager comes with new ideas and new signings different to the one before him while the team has literally no code

We're not at the point we can keep sacking managers and will still win anyway. We need stability with whatever manager till we finish a buildup and at least reach a similar squad to the Chelsea of 2005-2010. At the moment we will keep sacking managers while each one fecks up the team squad more than the former one and doing more damage than benefit.

Exactly... we need to at least give him the next year because this squad needed rebuilding. We cannot sack him after he has won 2 trophies, is in second place and is bringing better quality into the team. If the next manager does a van Gaal with recruitment we are totally fecked again.

If there is not progression next year it is fair for the board to weigh things up. At least let him sign the fullbacks and CM’s this summer. We need to fix our transitions, counters and play against a press and pressure. With fullbacks and a new CM I have faith we can do that.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Klopp, Pep have complete control too.

Klopp has the transfer committee and Pep has Txiki Begiristain

 

[roonster09]

Klopp has the transfer committee and Pep has Txiki Begiristain

It's like saying Jose has Ed Woodward.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

It's like saying Jose has Ed Woodward.

Not really Txiki Begiristain was also the Director of Football at Barcelona and he seems to have a lot of power at the club. And while Liverpool's transfer committee were sort of a joke in the past but, have been getting more credit lately.

 

[roonster09]

Not really Txiki Begiristain was also the Director of Football at Barcelona and he seems to have a lot of power at the club. And while Liverpool's transfer committee were sort of a joke in the past but, have been getting more credit lately.

Liverpool won't be signing any player without Klopp's approval, same with City for first team. obviously they will also sign players who will be sent on loan and cheap punts which has nothing to do with pep but all the first team players are signed by Pep, as in approved by Pep.

It's like saying Jose is not in control as he didn't get Perisic, which doesn't make any sense.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

So I can only assume you want lazy feckers who don't work without the ball in your team. All the good they do on the ball is balanced by the little they do without it. They are 50% players, any mediocre 60% would be more effective. We were actually worse with Pogba in the team tuesday, didn't need him against pool missing against spurs which has him in a sulk since. And his basic game knowledge is just not up to scratch.

McTominay is outshining him right now due to work rate alone. That tells you whats happening. Free ride for too long that lad has had, he needs to roll his sleeves up and get stuck in!

Everyone goes on about how great City/Liverpool/Spurs play, the one big ingrediant in that is hard work. They all work their socks off. Don't give the other team a minutes peace. There are too many in our side who when they lose the ball just stand there waving their arms about instead of making sure they get the ball back straight away. I think this is really annoying Jose.

 

[NK86]

Everyone goes on about how great City/Liverpool/Spurs play, the one big ingrediant in that is hard work. They all work their socks off. Don't give the other team a minutes peace. There are too many in our side who when they lose the ball just stand there waving their arms about instead of making sure they get the ball back straight away. I think this is really annoying Jose.

I agree about the players. However the lack of a high press is completely on Jose. It's evidently clear we don't practice pressing in training and it's all ad-hoc at best.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I don't get this at all, if Mourinho has problem with Shaw, why not just let him go? I don't think it will be a big issue if he does. Why play him after every 2 months then publicly humiliate him for being rusty?

A warning that if he doesn't get himself fit he won't have a career at any top flight club. He won't last anywhere for long if he doesn't keep that weight in check.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I agree about the players. However the lack of a high press is completely on Jose. It's evidently clear we don't practice pressing in training and it's all ad-hoc at best.

Do we have the players to press. Those other teams have been built round high energy players. Could you see Pogba pressing anyone, Mata? Half of them would be gassed after one press. Although I agree I am not sure it is Jose's policy to press as such, but he wants everyone covering everybody else and not leaving some to do all the work, while others stroll around.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Liverpool won't be signing any player without Klopp's approval, same with City for first team. obviously they will also sign players who will be sent on loan and cheap punts which has nothing to do with pep but all the first team players are signed by Pep, as in approved by Pep.

It's like saying Jose is not in control as he didn't get Perisic, which doesn't make any sense.

It is probably just a case of Klopp and the committee being on the same page. There was a lot of friction with the committee when Rodgers was the manager. And Pep and Txixi probably have the same structure they had when they were both at Barca.

 

[roonster09]

It is probably just a case of Klopp and the committee being on the same page. There was a lot of friction with the committee when Rodgers was the manager. And Pep and Txixi probably have the same structure they had when they were both at Barca.

So we agree Klopp and Pep get their players just like Jose got?

 

[Keeps It tidy]

So we agree Klopp and Pep get their players just like Jose got?

Well Gotze and Brandt are not playing for Liverpool right now.

 

[roonster09]

Do we have the players to press. Those other teams have been built round high energy players. Could you see Pogba pressing anyone, Mata? Half of them would be gassed after one press.

Why not? Clearest example is Liverpool. When Klopp took over they didn't press. Their first game was against Spurs which ended 0-0, even in that game it was obvious Liverpool started pressing which they didn't before under Rodgers. They matched Spurs in work rate and IIRC they covered same or even more distance than Spurs. It took Klopp nearly a week to make them work like lunatics.

 

[roonster09]

Well Gotze and Brandt are not playing for Liverpool right now.

Perisic is not playing for ManUtd either.

 

[NK86]

Do we have the players to press. Those other teams have been built round high energy players. Could you see Pogba pressing anyone, Mata? Half of them would be gassed after one press. Although I agree I am not sure it is Jose's policy to press as such, but he wants everyone covering everybody else and not leaving some to do all the work, while others stroll around.

Our front 4 out of Lingard, Lukaku, Martial, Rashford, Pogba and Sanchez can definitely press with energy. I think it's not just running madly, we have to learn how to cut angles and make sure we force the other team to make mistakes. City don't have to keep pressing for minutes. The way they press, they recover the ball within 30 seconds of losing it. That's the key part. We don't need high energy bunnies to have a pressing team but good tactics and proper training methods to implement that. No team can press non-stop, not even City.

 

[haram]

We don't have to apply a high press either btw. There is nothing wrong with letting the opposition come onto us and breaking into the space like that. In the Arsenal game we used both tactics. Press for the 2-0 lead, sat back and broke for the 3rd goal.

 

[Penna]

This seems to be a rather heated thread, so just a friendly reminder to all to keep calm and keep everything civil, please.

 

[Adisa]

Spoiler

Where was the urgency at Anfield? or Sevilla away? or even the second half of the Liverpool game? just a small sample of games where the lack of urgency comes directly from the manager.

Liverpool have many mediocre players at their disposal, but how come they show more urgency than ours?

We've appointed Moyes (defensive reactive manager), Van Gaal (slightly proactive, but encouraged sterile possession) followed by Mourinho (very defensive and reactive manager) and rather like the english national team which selected Sven (pragmatic manager) McLaren (clown out his depth) and Capello (defensive reactive manager) we have basically cultivated an environment in which it is okay to not get on the ball and do something with it, because as long as you are in good defensive shape that is all that matters, or making safe passes and coming up with the occasional attack to try and grind out a win.

Yes this mentality might now actually have infiltrated many of our players, but who is to blame for that? for me it is the Board with its shambolic choice of managers and Mourinho for me is the latest in the line of not extracting that urgency and attacking vibrancy we need from the current set of players. He encourages lack of urgency in many games, and now we are to believe he's been asking them all along due to his two days of coaching attacking football.

Also I made this post, before recent meltdown but it is even more relevant now post Sevilla. This is not the work of a genius trying to galvanise the squad, it is a rat trying to desert a sinking ship of his own making.

MOURINHO'S COLLAPSE AT MADRID

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Special-One-Dark-Side-Mourinho-ebook/dp/B00EXB7046

• Favouritism to Coentrao who he brought in to replace Marcelo (the world's best left back) even though he was not training properly, performing badly and an outcast in the squad.. he was seen as one of his trusted players (double standards)
• Complete fall out with the likes of Ramos and Casillas due to the whole you must not fraternising with the enemy at NT meet ups
• Destruction of his relationship with Ronaldo.. they were close at first due to Mendes connection, but Ronaldo detested his defensive approach, and sensed how rest of squad was not happy with him and decided to distance himself and develop his bond with the spanish contingent
• Continuous theme of the failure to coach attacking strategies against teams which were parking the bus and nullifying their counter-attacking football, players not happy with how Barca getting lots of praise and how they were getting little to no education on how to play patterns of play when facing smaller sides
• Growing divide between him and Mendes (who aligned himself with Ronaldo) and put less faith in Jose (hence the lack of Mendes clients you see being bought by Jose these days)
• Peculiar love/hate relationship with Perez. Perez at times bent over backwards to back him and was very reluctant to part with him and tried his best to ensure the fractious relationship he had with his players was smoothed over. In the end, his position was untenable and he faced mutiny from most of the squad.
• Similar to Bayern under Ancellotti, the players at times got together and formed their own strategies/decided to pull together for the good of the team prior to key games and Jose was increasingly becoming a puppet manager
• Jose was generally playing up alot, using mind games on the squad, random selections/dropping of players and vilifying players in order to make points to the media (Pedro Leon - kept him for years just to use him as a tool to bully/Benzema).. many of the players saw through it and didn't see the logic behind it, which led to them not respecting and distrusting him
• Likes of Essien were completely isolated by the squad, due to their perceived notion that these players were 'Mourinho's' men and not to be trusted, as they'd feed info back to the manager.

Failure to come up with attacking strategies



New-found obsession with championing his own brand of football over winning (some from Torres/Some from Wilson)




The Tale of the Mole



Betrayal of his sergeant 'Pepe'

No wonder they drop him out.
Will always remember him and Ronaldo in the tunnel. You could cut the tension with a knife.
Real, despite this still finished 3rd.
If his relationship with the players break, there's no telling how far results could drop.

 

[Gypsyblue]

In Mourinho's last season absolutely the players downed tools but it started almost from day one when he abused Eva the physio .. she was well liked and respected by all the playing staff and his rant during and after the game when she had gone on to treat a player, was the that of a mad man .. that was the catalyst for his meltdown as he never forgave the players for in his view their disloyalty and they in turn lost all respect for him.

As the season progressed he continued picking fights until something gave .. the damaged Jose post Madrid doesn't forge the relationships with players, the will to create that 'in to war together' mentality which was really his most powerful weapon is gone. He can still organise a defensive strategy superby and manage 90 min results more often than not, but the players won't buy into him or enjoy playing for him and I don't think he really enjoys coaching them either.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Everyone goes on about how great City/Liverpool/Spurs play, the one big ingrediant in that is hard work. They all work their socks off. Don't give the other team a minutes peace. There are too many in our side who when they lose the ball just stand there waving their arms about instead of making sure they get the ball back straight away. I think this is really annoying Jose.

Pressing is the trademark of Guardiola's, Pochettino's and Klopp's teams not because they buy players who work hard, these guys coach those players to make them play like that.

 

[Oldyella]

Difference is Chelsea and Madrid, especially Madrid, got a core of very good players and just wanted a coach to train. The current Chelsea team is poor, but look at their team when they were sacking managers nonstop and you'll see it was mostly a complete lacking coach. Madrid can keep sacking managers everyday and they will still win as they have an already built team and just need a coach to train them.

We needed a buildup after SAF left and fecked it up with Moyes appointment, and what's happening latter is all due to us fecking this buildup, now each manager comes with new ideas and new signings different to the one before him while the team has literally no code

We're not at the point we can keep sacking managers and will still win anyway. We need stability with whatever manager till we finish a buildup and at least reach a similar squad to the Chelsea of 2005-2010. At the moment we will keep sacking managers while each one fecks up the team squad more than the former one and doing more damage than benefit.

We have a core of good players!Before the season started most people had us down as serious contenders (which I suppose we would have been excusing City's run)

This downplaying of our team/squad is infuriating, its a stealth "we aspire to be like..." in that we are all talking as if these players are garbage and Mourinho is dragging us to 2nd and without him we would drop down the table. You say Chelsea and Madrid had a good core of players and we are not in position to sack our coach when he is rebuilding, Chelsea and Madrid have always done just that but still developed these squads, as they have moved on and dont allow the manager total control over the clubs signings.

For what its worth, I am still just about pro Mourinho, but he really needs to get us playing better football than he has been, and not just with 2 days coaching, other clubs with far fewer resources can develop a decent brand of football but without sacrificing winning games, and also stop spouting off bullshit in the press.

I would also appoint a Director of Football, and if he doesnt like it, tough shit, thats looking out for the club, not him.

 

[el3mel]

We have a core of good players!Before the season started most people had us down as serious contenders (which I suppose we would have been excusing City's run)

This downplaying of our team/squad is infuriating, its a stealth "we aspire to be like..." in that we are all talking as if these players are garbage and Mourinho is dragging us to 2nd and without him we would drop down the table. You say Chelsea and Madrid had a good core of players and we are not in position to sack our coach when he is rebuilding, Chelsea and Madrid have always done just that but still developed these squads, as they have moved on and dont allow the manager total control over the clubs signings.

For what its worth, I am still just about pro Mourinho, but he really needs to get us playing better football than he has been, and not just with 2 days coaching, other clubs with far fewer resources can develop a decent brand of football but without sacrificing winning games, and also stop spouting off bullshit in the press.

I would also appoint a Director of Football, and if he doesnt like it, tough shit, thats looking out for the club, not him.

No one is downplaying anything, but I don't think our squad is at the point that can win regardless of the manager and all it needs is just a coach to train them and that's it. We're still lacking in certain areas, have multiple young players that are still inconsistent and 2 top players that are a tactical headache especially Pogba.

In Madrid case even when they get a mediocre manager or the manager fecks up, the players can pull the team forward and win multiple games on their own. We're far from this point yet. When we reach it we can sack managers every year without troubles.

 

[NK86]

We don't have to apply a high press either btw. There is nothing wrong with letting the opposition come onto us and breaking into the space like that. In the Arsenal game we used both tactics. Press for the 2-0 lead, sat back and broke for the 3rd goal.

They peppered our goal that game and if it were not for DDG, we could have been at the wrong end of a hammering.

 

[glazed]

Bullying builds character and a strong mind /s

He'd make a great PE teacher at an English public school 8-/

 

[haram]

They peppered our goal that game and if it were not for DDG, we could have been at the wrong end of a hammering.

Ok, but I am just using an example of us using both tactics in one game. We sat deep against Liverpool and de Gea didn't have a save to make.

 

[crossy1686]

I’m a bit late to this thread and I haven’t read what’s come before this but I’d be surprised if this wasn’t mentioned before now.

Not to draw comparisons but Ferguson wasn’t exactly afraid of ‘bullying’ a player out of the club. Keane, Stam, Rooney (almost) and Beckham are a few to note, he even physically assaulted Beckham, albeit by accident. The difference between the two is that players knew if Fergie turned on you, you were a gonner and no other players would stick their necks on the line if you were getting too big for your boots.

With Mourinho however, it feels like the players feel they can have a strop and complain about bullying.

In all honesty, I don’t know who to support in this. We either back Mourinho 100% and send a clear message to the players that you shape up or your ship out. Or we potentially give in to player power and sack him at the end of the season. Either way, I feel we stand to lose from this situation and it’s mainly down to a piss poor mentality we have amoungst the squad, barring a few players.

 

[Leftback99]

The timing of the attack on the players is bad, just before an international break.

Rather than the squad being together and facing up to the criticism one way or another, they'll have two weeks of listening to how Mourinho has lost it and being influenced by others on how it's all his fault.

 

[Marcky411]

I honestly can't believe that we have the most gullible fans on the planet it seems.

So now we're meant to believe that mister Mourinho the paragon of attacking virtue has been teaching them attacking football all week and the players aren't buying it?

What about the rest of the season when they were following your instructions to a tee, no hint of any disharmony and the football was still shockingly poor.

I think we all know the squad in terms of quality and mentality isn't quite perfect but mate you brought Pogba and Mkhi and Lindelof - probably the three biggest fannies at the club right now as well as splurging on Sanchez who isn't mentally looking like iron man either under your management.

So we are meant to sell everything and trust you of all people to rebuild it?

The players look depressed under his management. He has sucked out the joy in their game. Shaw and Martial are a classic case in point of Mourinho bullying young players who even when they try - he'll paint a false narrative of how they play and fans buy it hook line and sinker time and time again. Martial was one of the few attacking players who was trying to be enterprising and yes he was rusty but being shoved around and benched after coming into great form will do that to a young player and mess with their head.

Shaw who admittedly is a fat blob, was being praised for training hard again - comes back into side and then gets dropped for no reason only to get picked yesterday - was decent and nowhere near as bad as some - and Jose makes it out like he's had a Moreno .. classic Jose hatchet job against a player he's had an agenda against since his Chelsea days. FWIW Shaw criticism by lots of managers so why not let him go - why hold on to him just so you can bully him for sport.

Give these guys a new manager with half the narcissism, an attacking methodology and I swear to you.. half the team if not more will respond to it and performances will pick up. They don't want to play for him - simple as that and successful teams before us have also done the same. They rejected him. Imagine Madrid fans backing Jose over what eventually become multiple Champions league winning squad. Not saying we're that good but this squad has enough quality to possibly win a league and at least play helluva lot more entertaining than what we've been subjected to under him.

Players are not blameless here but for me the buck stays with the manager. He's desperately trying to save his reputation and his ego can't take recent criticism of his management and he's trying to pin it all on a very mentally flawed squad. Yes we have some childish players but are they the sort of lads who come across like egotistical cnuts who would refuse to put in a graft under any manager? They have never cared about the club? Not really they just seem your average young lads who want to play good football, enjoy themselves and someone like Klopp would have them eating out of his hand. They don't want to be associated with this football and his weird and ad hoc selection policies must drive them mad.

Mourinho has to go first and foremost before we also bin some of the players. Right decision for all parties. He's toxic and all that cringeworthy schmoozing he was doing on the touch line yesterday doesn't hide the fact that this is no longer a manager you trust with clubs who are expected to play more proactive football and with younger players because his ego takes precedence over their development.

Great post.
The manager is responsible for the team, the tactics and the style of play. It isn't as if Jose has just arrived, he has had 4 transfer windows and has been able to bring in his choice of players at any cost, the club have backed him financially all the way. Yet if you hear him everything and everyone is to blame, nobody is listening to him(yeah right like Jose would let something like that happen). He seems to be trying his upmost best to alienate his players and we might get to see the whole thing fall apart before the end of the season.
Thank God we have got an International break now, this could all get very toxic very quickly and we still have the FA cup to play for.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Our front 4 out of Lingard, Lukaku, Martial, Rashford, Pogba and Sanchez can definitely press with energy. I think it's not just running madly, we have to learn how to cut angles and make sure we force the other team to make mistakes. City don't have to keep pressing for minutes. The way they press, they recover the ball within 30 seconds of losing it. That's the key part. We don't need high energy bunnies to have a pressing team but good tactics and proper training methods to implement that. No team can press non-stop, not even City.

So then it is going to be down if our coaches can coach that or a more effective way of playing?

 

[Jeffthered]

I honestly can't believe that we have the most gullible fans on the planet it seems.

So now we're meant to believe that mister Mourinho the paragon of attacking virtue has been teaching them attacking football all week and the players aren't buying it?

What about the rest of the season when they were following your instructions to a tee, no hint of any disharmony and the football was still shockingly poor.

I think we all know the squad in terms of quality and mentality isn't quite perfect but mate you brought Pogba and Mkhi and Lindelof - probably the three biggest fannies at the club right now as well as splurging on Sanchez who isn't mentally looking like iron man either under your management.

So we are meant to sell everything and trust you of all people to rebuild it?

The players look depressed under his management. He has sucked out the joy in their game. Shaw and Martial are a classic case in point of Mourinho bullying young players who even when they try - he'll paint a false narrative of how they play and fans buy it hook line and sinker time and time again. Martial was one of the few attacking players who was trying to be enterprising and yes he was rusty but being shoved around and benched after coming into great form will do that to a young player and mess with their head.

Shaw who admittedly is a fat blob, was being praised for training hard again - comes back into side and then gets dropped for no reason only to get picked yesterday - was decent and nowhere near as bad as some - and Jose makes it out like he's had a Moreno .. classic Jose hatchet job against a player he's had an agenda against since his Chelsea days. FWIW Shaw criticism by lots of managers so why not let him go - why hold on to him just so you can bully him for sport.

Give these guys a new manager with half the narcissism, an attacking methodology and I swear to you.. half the team if not more will respond to it and performances will pick up. They don't want to play for him - simple as that and successful teams before us have also done the same. They rejected him. Imagine Madrid fans backing Jose over what eventually become multiple Champions league winning squad. Not saying we're that good but this squad has enough quality to possibly win a league and at least play helluva lot more entertaining than what we've been subjected to under him.

Players are not blameless here but for me the buck stays with the manager. He's desperately trying to save his reputation and his ego can't take recent criticism of his management and he's trying to pin it all on a very mentally flawed squad. Yes we have some childish players but are they the sort of lads who come across like egotistical cnuts who would refuse to put in a graft under any manager? They have never cared about the club? Not really they just seem your average young lads who want to play good football, enjoy themselves and someone like Klopp would have them eating out of his hand. They don't want to be associated with this football and his weird and ad hoc selection policies must drive them mad.

Mourinho has to go first and foremost before we also bin some of the players. Right decision for all parties. He's toxic and all that cringeworthy schmoozing he was doing on the touch line yesterday doesn't hide the fact that this is no longer a manager you trust with clubs who are expected to play more proactive football and with younger players because his ego takes precedence over their development.

Excellent post. Excellent.

 

[Escobar]

I'd expect from our manager to build players up and get the best out of them. I also expect our manager to find a tactic / formation that works. However, Jose does this only partially and I'm getting tired of him throwing players under the bus while he himself is the biggest factor why things are not going well

 

[DavidLayland]

I honestly can't believe that we have the most gullible fans on the planet it seems.

So now we're meant to believe that mister Mourinho the paragon of attacking virtue has been teaching them attacking football all week and the players aren't buying it?

What about the rest of the season when they were following your instructions to a tee, no hint of any disharmony and the football was still shockingly poor.

I think we all know the squad in terms of quality and mentality isn't quite perfect but mate you brought Pogba and Mkhi and Lindelof - probably the three biggest fannies at the club right now as well as splurging on Sanchez who isn't mentally looking like iron man either under your management.

So we are meant to sell everything and trust you of all people to rebuild it?

The players look depressed under his management. He has sucked out the joy in their game. Shaw and Martial are a classic case in point of Mourinho bullying young players who even when they try - he'll paint a false narrative of how they play and fans buy it hook line and sinker time and time again. Martial was one of the few attacking players who was trying to be enterprising and yes he was rusty but being shoved around and benched after coming into great form will do that to a young player and mess with their head.

Shaw who admittedly is a fat blob, was being praised for training hard again - comes back into side and then gets dropped for no reason only to get picked yesterday - was decent and nowhere near as bad as some - and Jose makes it out like he's had a Moreno .. classic Jose hatchet job against a player he's had an agenda against since his Chelsea days. FWIW Shaw criticism by lots of managers so why not let him go - why hold on to him just so you can bully him for sport.

Give these guys a new manager with half the narcissism, an attacking methodology and I swear to you.. half the team if not more will respond to it and performances will pick up. They don't want to play for him - simple as that and successful teams before us have also done the same. They rejected him. Imagine Madrid fans backing Jose over what eventually become multiple Champions league winning squad. Not saying we're that good but this squad has enough quality to possibly win a league and at least play helluva lot more entertaining than what we've been subjected to under him.

Players are not blameless here but for me the buck stays with the manager. He's desperately trying to save his reputation and his ego can't take recent criticism of his management and he's trying to pin it all on a very mentally flawed squad. Yes we have some childish players but are they the sort of lads who come across like egotistical cnuts who would refuse to put in a graft under any manager? They have never cared about the club? Not really they just seem your average young lads who want to play good football, enjoy themselves and someone like Klopp would have them eating out of his hand. They don't want to be associated with this football and his weird and ad hoc selection policies must drive them mad.

Mourinho has to go first and foremost before we also bin some of the players. Right decision for all parties. He's toxic and all that cringeworthy schmoozing he was doing on the touch line yesterday doesn't hide the fact that this is no longer a manager you trust with clubs who are expected to play more proactive football and with younger players because his ego takes precedence over their development.

Well said,sir! I agree with you 100%. Basically Jose has gone mad. Power and (apparent) success does this to some people. He must be dismissed asap. I'm not "jumping on a bandwagon" here ......never wanted him in the first place. Let's see our great club move on with a sane manager.