Jose saving his skin - yet again.. (Manager v Players blame game)

[steffyr2]

And to think most of us thought Moyes and LVG were bad.

Yep. And apparently some of the players think they can outlast another manager.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Yep. And apparently some of the players think they can outlast another manager.

Some will, some won't.

 

[Axkiko]

Mourinho lovebirds Smalling and Fellaini were consistently bad but he never said one word to criticises them. When Shaw didn’t play for a long time, once he played and Mourinho blames everything he did. Double standard.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Mourinho lovebirds Smalling and Fellaini were consistently bad but he never said one word to criticises them. When Shaw didn’t play for a long time, once he played and Mourinho blames everything he did. Double standard.

I'd imagine it's a contextual issue. As in, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes between the manager of the club and his players than people reading or listening to interviews could ever guess at.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I'd imagine it's a contextual issue. As in, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes between the manager of the club and his players than people reading or listening to interviews could ever guess at.

Well he has thrown Smalling under the bus in the past.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Well he has thrown Smalling under the bus in the past.

If he thinks it's beneficial in whatever way he calculates these things, then I think he'll throw anyone under the bus (Woodward, Glazer, Smalling, the milkman, and so on).

It's been noted by a lot of people who have played for him that he criticizes players he likes whereas he completely ignores those he isn't overly keen on. This gets lost every time people wheel out the same old conspiracy theories. No one has a clue what happens between a manager and a player except the player and the manager. We can guess from what gets said, but we're only hearing one side, and we don't ever know what the personal relationship is like behind closed doors.

As far as Shaw goes though, I think he's gone and I don't think it's unmerited. He's had ample time to get fit and stay fit and he hasn't done it. People say he was great and then he was dropped, but in truth he was average to good and was dropped, but even if you think he was great, that's not an excuse to turn crap again because you're not in the team. You fight for your place or you leave. His comments about Pochettino probably didn't help much either.

 

[NikSab]

I think Jose has done a great job of not letting United's season's wheel come off. Everyone is talking about the rants rather than the exit.

 

[liamp]

Moyes was horrible but, he made 2 signings(both who are still here) and sold 1 player while he was here.

The most damaging part of the Moyes regime was the insane fecking contract extension he handed Rooney. Took us an extra 3 years to get him off the books after that.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

If he thinks it's beneficial in whatever way he calculates these things, then I think he'll throw anyone under the bus (Woodward, Glazer, Smalling, the milkman, and so on).

It's been noted by a lot of people who have played for him that he criticizes players he likes whereas he completely ignores those he isn't overly keen on. This gets lost every time people wheel out the same old conspiracy theories. No one has a clue what happens between a manager and a player except the player and the manager. We can guess from what gets said, but we're only hearing one side, and we don't ever know what the personal relationship is like behind closed doors.

As far as Shaw goes though, I think he's gone and I don't think it's unmerited. He's had ample time to get fit and stay fit and he hasn't done it. People say he was great and then he was dropped, but in truth he was average to good and was dropped, but even if you think he was great, that's not an excuse to turn crap again because you're not in the team. You fight for your place or you leave. His comments about Pochettino probably didn't help much either.

But, that is the thing it was clear last season that Shaw should be sold. It has been clear for a while that Mourinho does not rate him. Shaw still being at the club is a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Klopp_De_Klown]

I know we lost against Sevilla but not content with that you want us to sack the only reason we are second?

I get you're all sore and all but christ it not like we have a team full of stars, now is it. Oh, some will go on about Pogs and Tony M but the reality is both players are lazy. They do almost zero work off the ball. And in the modern game, your better off having a Perisic than a Pogba or a Martial. At least you get a shift out of them and now when the chips are down and we need them most they go missing.

We are where we are due mainly to the system. Our only world class player is De Gea and he can hardly dig us out at 1-0 down now, can he? And you want to sack the manager because he's only halfway through the job and it's not being done fast enough for you?

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

But, that is the thing it was clear last season that Shaw should be sold. It has been clear for a while that Mourinho does not rate him. Shaw still being at the club is a waste of everyone's time.

Last season Shaw was coming back from that injury. It made sense to keep him for another season and see if he could move beyond it. He hasn't so far, and that's why I think he'll be gone in the summer.

 

[NK86]

He said difficult not impossible, and in the context of providing perspective to those who think we should already be ahead of City. It shows no intimation of his ambition.

It surely shows more about his lack of confidence in overtaking City than his zeal to do it.

As for perspective, he was pointedly asked about seasons ahead, not this season. So no, he wasn't addressing those, if any, who think we should already be ahead of City.

 

[Sagittarius13]

Mourinho's ego is a problem, you can read his comments of the Sevilla's post match, he's trying so desperate to minimize that we are out of the Champions League against a not so powerful team, its a failure, so he's doing what he does best, controversial comments.

FA Cup and 2nd place in the league wouldn't be bad, the thing is we are not convinced about Mou's ways. He's literally killing off every's player good run.
- Martial was on fire, he's on the bench now..
- McTominay on the bench against Sevilla, no one can explain this.
- Pogba not starting, well, Pogba is a spoilt lad, we need soldiers in this team with right attitude, this was one of the things I love from Rooney, he was so versatile and his attitude was great, same with other players, but with Pogba is not like that, he's waiting for Mou to play as he wants and not the other way around, his lack of desire to defend disappoints me, I don't really care about his statistics on the pitch, his attitude bothers me.
- Alexis, when does he arrive?
- Rashford, playing him on the left, on the right... what?

Sorry for bad english.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I know we lost against Sevilla but not content with that you want us to sack the only reason we are second?

I get you're all sore and all but christ it not like we have a team full of stars, now is it. Oh, some will go on about Pogs and Tony M but the reality is both players are lazy. They do almost zero work off the ball. And in the modern game, your better off having a Perisic than a Pogba or a Martial. At least you get a shift out of them and now when the chips are down and we need them most they go missing.

We are where we are due mainly to the system. Our only world class player is De Gea and he can hardly dig us out at 1-0 down now, can he? And you want to sack the manager because he's only halfway through the job and it's not being done fast enough for you?

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

This post sums up a major problem I have with the discussion we constantly have on here. There is some here who want it both ways. When defending Mourinho they want to bring up our league position, still being in the FA Cup and winning two trophies last season. But, when the discussion is about us finishing 6th last season, getting eliminated by a much weaker Sevilla side and being so far off from City in the league people want to blame the players and say we need a "clear out". It can not be both. Either we are in a good position or not.

 

[Vinnie Peetang]

We are turning into Chelsea. Jose came in to a fifth placed club, and brought 3 trophies in the first year. Superstars now wants to join because of Jose. And here you are, bitching and moaning at the slightest wobble. This club does not deserve good managers. He is building solid foundations, a strong work ethic while weeding out those who are here on big wages because they did something good once. We should give Jose 3 years, 5 years, 10 years if he wants, just to right this house again. It's this damn millenials generation, can't take a little put down. Fergie used to kick boots into underperformer's faces! Let's see how they'd like that then!

 

[Varun]

I know we lost against Sevilla but not content with that you want us to sack the only reason we are second?

I get you're all sore and all but christ it not like we have a team full of stars, now is it. Oh, some will go on about Pogs and Tony M but the reality is both players are lazy. They do almost zero work off the ball. And in the modern game, your better off having a Perisic than a Pogba or a Martial. At least you get a shift out of them and now when the chips are down and we need them most they go missing.

We are where we are due mainly to the system. Our only world class player is De Gea and he can hardly dig us out at 1-0 down now, can he? And you want to sack the manager because he's only halfway through the job and it's not being done fast enough for you?

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

 

[redIndianDevil]

We've been playing cowardly for years though and they have been protected long enough in that regard. If they can't take public criticism they really shouldn't be at Man Utd at this stage. I think after years of underachievement the last thing they deserve is a quiet arm round the shoulder in public.

Thing is, when you play for Manchester United, Bayern Munich, Real or Barcelona it all goes out the window to some extent. Giggs/Scholes and all the other ex players speak about how ruthless the club expectations can be and how you need to grab whatever few opportunities you have or about how the mental character needs to be ridiculously strong.

We're also blindly just assuming that Mourinho hasn't repeatedly told his players behind closed doors to play better than they are. He probably has, and this public criticism very likely to be an accumulation of them being a collective bunch of pussies for too long.

The players have been constantly criticized by every media outlet, pundits and club legends every time we have been shit, you don't need the manager to pile on in public too. It's just detrimental to the team and doesnt work especially in the current age, even Fergie's famous hairdryer was done behind doors.

 

[Klopp_De_Klown]

This post sums up a major problem I have with the discussion we constantly have on here. There is some here who want it both ways. When defending Mourinho they want to bring up our league position, still being in the FA Cup and winning two trophies last season. But, when the discussion is about us finishing 6th last season, getting eliminated by a much weaker Sevilla side and being so far off from City in the league people want to blame the players and say we need a "clear out". It can not be both. Either we are in a good position or not.

You need to draw a line in the sand somewhere or else im bring back Moyes and LVG and then you'll be sorry!

 

[Fridge chutney]

This is the problem with modern football. Fans bemoan player power, they talk about the need for discipline, they want managers to take the hardline with underperforming players and then the minute a manager dares raise his voice the fan base come out in force whining and crying

Jose is clearly forcing his players to take responsibility. The **** of the manager has grown to ludicrous levels in world football. Players play but it’s the manager who always gets the boot at the slightest hint of a downturn in results.

This kind of attitude will destroy football clubs. Players need to know that it’s the managers way or the highway. They need to know that the manager has supreme confidence from the board and the fans and that the buck stops with them. Think SAF at United or Pep at City right now.

Unfortunately for Jose, what he is doing right now requires a bit of brain power from the fans who have to throw their support behind him in order to reinforce that message to the players. I’m not sure we have it judging by the atmosphere at OT or on here.

When Pogba or Sanchez or Martial or Valencia or Shaw (etc...) walks into training on Monday, they need to look at Jose and the players around him, having seen the reaction of the fans and go “shit, I’ve got no choice but to step up”. Sadly what will probably happen is that they’ll go “we don’t like this guy...makes our life difficult, let’s down tools and get rid”

I’m not defending everything Jose has done. I don’t deny that the football isn’t great. I don’t claim that all of his decisions have been the right ones. But managers make mistakes. The perfect manager DOES NOT EXIST.

The choice we have is a fairly simple one - do we continue to whinge and moan and attempt to force Jose out of the club, meaning a fifth manager in six years, or do we say, “you know what, for better or for worse, we stick with a man with THE BEST track record in world football and trust that he knows a thing or two about managing a football club”

Ask me, we’re committing footballing suicide if we bow to the fans and bow to the underperforming rabble.

Top post. The players must take accountability. If we fire the manager, the new bloke will do fine... until he doesn't at which point there will be more moaning and hissyfits until spoilt, knee-jerk entitled Manchester United consumers force out the new bloke because their toy doesn't work immediately to their liking (daddy daddy it's not good enough, buy me a different one!) And the cycle keeps going until we become Liverpool.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Thing is, when you play for Manchester United, Bayern Munich, Real or Barcelona it all goes out the window to some extent. Giggs/Scholes and all the other ex players speak about how ruthless the club expectations can be and how you need to grab whatever few opportunities you have or about how the mental character needs to be ridiculously strong.

I think there's a tactical element about what he said. He's keeping the players on their toes. He hasn't specified who he thinks is playing bad (except Shaw and Valencia, Valencia being one of his favourite players), he's lumped them all together (after a win). The point is to keep intensity up and not let complacency seep in. He also knows that he probably has the support of the players who count, that others will be out the door in the summer, and that more of his own players will be brought in. That adds more incentive to those who might be fighting for their United careers. Shaw being the obvious example but I think he's gone.

 

[liamp]

This post sums up a major problem I have with the discussion we constantly have on here. There is some here who want it both ways. When defending Mourinho they want to bring up our league position, still being in the FA Cup and winning two trophies last season. But, when the discussion is about us finishing 6th last season, getting eliminated by a much weaker Sevilla side and being so far off from City in the league people want to blame the players and say we need a "clear out". It can not be both. Either we are in a good position or not.

Exactly.

 

[Fridge chutney]

I think there's a tactical element about what he said. He's keeping the players on their toes. He hasn't specified who he thinks is playing bad (except Shaw and Valencia, Valencia being one of his favourite players), he's lumped them all together (after a win). The point is to keep intensity up and not let complacency seep in. He also knows that he probably has the support of the players who count, that others will be out the door in the summer, and that more of his own players will be brought in. That adds more incentive to those who might be fighting for their United careers. Shaw being the obvious example but I think he's gone.

Interesting perspective. I don't agree with everything he said at the pressers. I think he could have worded things differently. And I don't know what his ultimate message is. But I think your interpretation is the best/most accurate.

 

[NK86]

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

Doubt he even has one when you see the state of that post.

 

[Klopp_De_Klown]

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

So I can only assume you want lazy feckers who don't work without the ball in your team. All the good they do on the ball is balanced by the little they do without it. They are 50% players, any mediocre 60% would be more effective. We were actually worse with Pogba in the team tuesday, didn't need him against pool missing against spurs which has him in a sulk since. And his basic game knowledge is just not up to scratch.

McTominay is outshining him right now due to work rate alone. That tells you whats happening. Free ride for too long that lad has had, he needs to roll his sleeves up and get stuck in!

 

[Bobski]

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

Remarkable how Perisic's reputation has increased simply through Mou wanting him. He has 8 goals and 6 assists this season, in a inferior league to England, not bad numbers, but very similar to what Lingard, Rashford and Martial have produced. I have not seen a lot of him at Inter, but I did at Dortmund/Wolfsburg, where he made Mikitaryan look consistent and robust.

 

[Jonno]

This is the problem with modern football. Fans bemoan player power, they talk about the need for discipline, they want managers to take the hardline with underperforming players and then the minute a manager dares raise his voice the fan base come out in force whining and crying

Jose is clearly forcing his players to take responsibility. The **** of the manager has grown to ludicrous levels in world football. Players play but it’s the manager who always gets the boot at the slightest hint of a downturn in results.

This kind of attitude will destroy football clubs. Players need to know that it’s the managers way or the highway. They need to know that the manager has supreme confidence from the board and the fans and that the buck stops with them. Think SAF at United or Pep at City right now.

Unfortunately for Jose, what he is doing right now requires a bit of brain power from the fans who have to throw their support behind him in order to reinforce that message to the players. I’m not sure we have it judging by the atmosphere at OT or on here.

When Pogba or Sanchez or Martial or Valencia or Shaw (etc...) walks into training on Monday, they need to look at Jose and the players around him, having seen the reaction of the fans and go “shit, I’ve got no choice but to step up”. Sadly what will probably happen is that they’ll go “we don’t like this guy...makes our life difficult, let’s down tools and get rid”

I’m not defending everything Jose has done. I don’t deny that the football isn’t great. I don’t claim that all of his decisions have been the right ones. But managers make mistakes. The perfect manager DOES NOT EXIST.

The choice we have is a fairly simple one - do we continue to whinge and moan and attempt to force Jose out of the club, meaning a fifth manager in six years, or do we say, “you know what, for better or for worse, we stick with a man with THE BEST track record in world football and trust that he knows a thing or two about managing a football club”

Ask me, we’re committing footballing suicide if we bow to the fans and bow to the underperforming rabble.

This post should be pinned to the homepage of RedCafe.

I’ve tried to get across everything you’ve said for months on this forum, but you’ve described it perfectly

 

[Keeps It tidy]

This post should be pinned to the homepage of RedCafe.

I’ve tried to get across everything you’ve said for months on this forum, but you’ve described it perfectly

The managers way or the highway stuff is dying out in Football.

 

[Klopp_De_Klown]

The managers way or the highway stuff is dying out in Football.

Dont mean its wrong though. The tail cant wag the dog, we had SAF he made sure he was the boss and it was his way or the highway!

 

[Fridge chutney]

What a stupid post. Just because some of us don’t cry ourselves to sleep every time we don’t win a game we have low standards?

We’ve got 1000000 posts on this forum where reasonable-minded, patient supporters try and explain to the rest of the FIFA-playing, keyboard warrior, never been to OT brigade why buying 6 players (4 under 24) hasn’t led to a glorious treble just yet but it’s obvious that it’s a waste of time.

Can’t be bothered with this forum anymore. Used to be about debating tactics, ideas, player performances and general Utd chat

Now it’s just pages and pages of whingeing

Well said again! You win this thread.

I don't know how some people coped under Moyes or LVG, let alone pre-SAF days. Nor do I know how the other 92 teams in english football below 2nd place (most with zero trophies to show) cope.

 

[Jonno]

The managers way or the highway stuff is dying out in Football.

Really? Because it sounds to me like the owners and the board have given Mourinho the full support he deserves. So while the likes of Chelsea and various mid table and relegation sides like to regularly change their managers, I don’t think you’ll be seeing it at United, City, Liverpool, Spurs and other clubs who believe in their projects and their managers.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Dont mean its wrong though. The tail cant wag the dog, we had SAF he made sure he was the boss and it was his way or the highway!

Once Wenger leaves Arsenal that is probably going to be the end of a manager being in control of a major club for 20+ seasons or even 10+ seasons.

 

[Jonno]

What a stupid post. Just because some of us don’t cry ourselves to sleep every time we don’t win a game we have low standards?

We’ve got 1000000 posts on this forum where reasonable-minded, patient supporters try and explain to the rest of the FIFA-playing, keyboard warrior, never been to OT brigade why buying 6 players (4 under 24) hasn’t led to a glorious treble just yet but it’s obvious that it’s a waste of time.

Can’t be bothered with this forum anymore. Used to be about debating tactics, ideas, player performances and general Utd chat

Now it’s just pages and pages of whingeing

You’re restoring my faith in this forum. One of the few mature, realist posters

 

[Jonno]

Once Wenger leaves Arsenal that is probably going to be the end of a manager being in control of a major club for 20+ seasons or even 10+ seasons.

All it changes is the length of time, not the level of control. Not at all. You think Pep, Jose, Klopp, Poch, etc have no control over transfer dealings, policies and tactics? Come on.....

 

[Keeps It tidy]

All it changes is the length of time, not the level of control. Not at all. You think Pep, Jose, Klopp, Poch, etc have no control over transfer dealings, policies and tactics? Come on.....

Only Jose definitely has control over transfer policy of the managers you named. And the likes of Zidane, Valderde, Heyneckes, Allegri, Emery, Montella, Francesco etc have very little control over transfer policy.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Really? Because it sounds to me like the owners and the board have given Mourinho the full support he deserves. So while the likes of Chelsea and various mid table and relegation sides like to regularly change their managers, I don’t think you’ll be seeing it at United, City, Liverpool, Spurs and other clubs who believe in their projects and their managers.

Bayern, Barca and Real also constantly change their managers hell everywhere managers change a ton.

 

[Klopp_De_Klown]

Once Wenger leaves Arsenal that is probably going to be the end of a manager being in control of a major club for 20+ seasons or even 10+ seasons.

Thats more longevity than being the I say jump type of boss. Let's examine chelsea a sec, won the league under Jose and I say the players downed tools the following season. Supposedly it was costa flabs pedro and hazard, they wanted more freedom and it went against Jose's plans. So in comes Conte and hes all new so it works for a while, but by the time they came to Old Trafford we kinda knew the wheels were coming loose and while they won the league the cracks were showing. This season they turned on conte again, albeit not the same as with Jose but they did. This is player power at work. They win at it once and they keep at it until they get what they want every time after!

Is this what we want here? Because it's coming! Unless we back the manager. The Fans let the players know on Saturday! They chanted Jose, that's the right message. Hopefully, they, the players, pull their socks up and come to an understanding that the club and the fans deserve better and all pull in the one direction.

Easier write here than achieve in real life I would say

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Thats more longevity than being the I say jump type of boss. Let's examine chelsea a sec, won the league under Jose and I say the players downed tools the following season. Supposedly it was costa flabs pedro and hazard, they wanted more freedom and it went against Jose's plans. So in comes Conte and hes all new so it works for a while, but by the time they came to Old Trafford we kinda knew the wheels were coming loose and while they won the league the cracks were showing. This season they turned on conte again, albeit not the same as with Jose but they did. This is player power at work. They win at it once and they keep at it until they get what they want every time after!

Is this what we want here? Because it's coming! Unless we back the manager. The Fans let the players know on Saturday! They chanted Jose, that's the right message. Hopefully, they, the players, pull their socks up and come to an understanding that the club and the fans deserve better and all pull in the one direction.

Easier write here than achieve in real life I would say

And they only have 2 league titles in 3 years to show for it..... And I do not think just "backing the manager" would have fixed the issues they had in Mourinho's third season or the season they are having now.

 

[MS.08]

I don't get this at all, if Mourinho has problem with Shaw, why not just let him go? I don't think it will be a big issue if he does. Why play him after every 2 months then publicly humiliate him for being rusty?

 

[tjb]

Mourinho lovebirds Smalling and Fellaini were consistently bad but he never said one word to criticises them. When Shaw didn’t play for a long time, once he played and Mourinho blames everything he did. Double standard.

You think he likes Smalling? At every chance he gets, he tried to replace him. If Jones were fit, there is no chance Smalling would be playing.

 

[Water Melon]

Mourinho being the best in the world is a myth. He was the best in the world, but last season he was sixth in the prem. He won the EL cup, which contains second tier teams of Europe, while in the top tier of European football he could not get past group stages, already being in charge of the club for 20 months and having had 4 transfer seasons to buy who he wants. He has also spent around 300 million quid during his time here and for the second season running he is out of title race before New Year. Players that he bought except for Lukaku and Matic are yet to show their true quality or replicate their top form. Moreover, Jose is already admitting that it will be very very difficult to catch City next season. He will always blame anyone bar himself, and still thinks he is one of the best in the world. He forgot that Pogda was worlds most expensive player at the time, he forgot that Lukaku is one if the most expensive strikers in the Prem, and he threw toys out of his pram, when the board told him to try develop what he has at his disposal and declined to sign Perisic. The fecker has now a cheek to tell that there is nothing wrong about being knocked out of CL by Sevilla. Someone needs to remind him what is the total price of Sevilla's squad and what is the CV of their manager. Conte beat everyone in his first season in EPL (including Mou, Pep, Klopp, Poch etc) with a team that was managed to a level of being one point above relegation by Jose in his last season with Chelsea. Real Madrid literally tore the whole world a new one, after Jose was sacked from there. I doubt that any of City, Bayern, Real, Barca, Liverpool and even fecking Tottenham would want him as a manager. So Jose was definitely one of the best managers in the world, but during his past 7 seasons while managing top clubs he only won national leagues twice. Prior to joining United he was sacked twice due to toxic atmosphere between himself and his players. If the target is to stay in top 4 while spending tons of money every season, then Jose will do the job, however, if the target is to win major trophies, then I do not see Jose beating Pep in the Prem, and after Sevilla shitshow I doubt he can get us past Bayerns, Reals, Barcelonas, Juves and other top teams of this continent. I am not calling for Jose's head now but if he does not win us EPL or gets very deep in CL next season, if we continue to play like a bunch of top induviduals rather than a top team, he needs to go. He will have spent half a billion by that time. Liverpool progressed further than us in Europe this season. Spurs who had much much tougher opponents than us were eliminated at the same stage as ourselves. These are facts. Jose told that there are many poets in football, well he was beaten by them this season.