Pre Premier League Draft - Quarter Finals - BeforeKeane vs. Enigma/TRV

Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Indnyc

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This is a Pre Premier League draft from 1971/72 to 1991/92 where managers assemble their squads by selecting players based on their playing performance during this time period only. Performances that fall outside this time period should not be considered. Neither should the players performance for their country/international tournaments be considered. As in any team, team tactics and balance also play a part.

Hence please carefully consider the abovesaid factors and evaluate the merits of both teams before voting for the team which in your opinion is likelier to win the match.

Team BeforeKeanetherewasRobson



VS.

Team Enigma/The Red Viper



Tactics Team BeforeKeanetherewasRobson

TEAM / WHY WE WIN

  • Conscious of feedback from round.1 about whether a 442 may not get the most out of the central midfielders who were unquestionably two great B2B midfielders. Consequently, a flexible set up to maximise attacking potency while also ensuring the defence is not neglected /left vulnerable
  • Strong upgrades with Molby being a midfield star for Liverpool and Robertson a Forest legend
  • No ‘just getting in’ to the draft - with the exception maybe of Irwin (but 4 good seasons at Oldham and 2 with United in time criteria), these are all players at their peaks (rough years in brackets)
  • While amazing talent throughout the team, they are all winners with great mental attitude who would also put in the hard work and play for the team. Ten were league champions, plenty more than once and various European trophies scattered among them
  • None of the midfield are purely in for tackling, passing, crossing, etc - they ALL bring a huge goal threat as shown across their careers and in big matches?
  • Robertson : 18 (1978), 16 (79), 19 (80) including a European Cup Final winner
  • McDermott : 16 (1980), 22 (81), 20 (82) including a European Cup Final opener
  • Robson : 15 (1983), 18 (84), 14 (85) including so many wonder goals, I’ve lost count!
  • Steven : 15 (1984/85) including goals in the ECWC semi v Bayern and opener in the final
  • With the ball, we control the midfield and have a perfect mix of ability on the ball, energy, positional sense and tackling. As much as Ardiles and Thijssen looked pretty to watch, they’re no match for the intensity of Robson/McDermott (never mind Molby as well) and they never chipped in with more than half a dozen goals per season
  • Without the ball, Molby drops, covers Brady and adds extra support to the defence. Van den Hauwe isn’t bothered by Francis (half winger, half forward) and Irwin has the speed to match Sheedy. Denied a way to get the ball laid on a plate for him, Lineker is denied his 2-foot tap-ins and is a white elephant (that’s not a joke about his ears)
  • None of the politician lies - to be honest, there’s a chance Brady could do something magical but (1) it’s a “chance” and (2) all of my front six have proven goals in them. We'll out-score them, out-pass them, out-muscle them, out-run them
IN POSSESSION
  • 433
  • Molby is the fulcrum for the team, the catalyst for when to retain possession and when to push forward. He can attack himself (comfortable on the ball and an amazing shot), spray the ball wide or play through the middle (he had a superb range of passing)
  • This extra midfielder allows Robson and McDermott to do what they were devastating at - push forward, run with/without the ball and get the defenders back-pedalling
  • The width (with the addition of John Robertson) gives Molby a multitude of options and angles. This spreads the opposition (so Robson and McDermott will have a field day) and ensures the opposing full-backs are pegged back, especially McGrain
  • Mick Channon leads the line upfront as he did for Southampton - not your standard No.9 who would simply stand by a centre half (which would suit Hunter) but a more fluid player who found space throughout his career and scored goals, lots of them

WITHOUT POSSESSION


  • 4-1-4-1
  • Molby drops to cover Brady - a role he is comfortable with as played as a defensive midfielder
  • The central midfield match up and their sheer engine and tackling mean Ossie is yet again wondering why he joined Spurs and Thijssen is saying “where’s Wark?”
  • Back four keep solid line - Sheedy has pace/trickery but Irwin is perfect for that, while Francis has curly hair which isn’t an issue for Van den Hauwe.
GOALIE : Bruce Grobbelaar (81-85), massively under-rated goalie and launched quick attacks
  • Every successful club needs a good goalie…. Every great team who win repeatedly over an era has to have a great goalie. Had a few mistakes in first season but Paisley listened to Gary Lineker’s advice and “had a word” and he quickly turned into a shot-stopping, acrobatic, driven goalie who meant the Liverpool fans were saying “Ray who?”
  • 13 key medals : 6 (SIX) League Titles, 3 F A Cup winner medals, 3 League Cup winner medals, European Cup winner

RIGHT BACK : Denis Irwin (88-92), attacking FB
  • Started with Leeds (but we’ll forgive him), then brought himself to people’s (Fergies) attention after four pretty much ever-present seasons at Oldham culminating in their great cup runs of 1990
  • Then became a United legend starting with being part of the 1991 ECWC winning team
  • Went on to more and more medals (outside this period) but superb from Day.1

CENTRE HALF : David O’Leary (84-91), solid CH, great in air
  • Consistently good and amazing longevity. 722 appearances for Arsenal - a club record
  • Unfortunate not to be around during Arsenals later period of success/medals but still won 2 League Titles (including one which made Liverpool fans cry = brownie points), 2 F A Cup wins, 2 League Cup wins, 3 times in PFA Team of the Year

CENTRE HALF : Colin Todd (73-76), excellent positional sense, quick to read danger
  • Star from an early age (won FA Youth Cup under Clough), 1st team debut by 17 and Brian Clough bought him to be defensive rock for the forgotten (but excellent) Derby team of the early 70s
  • 2 League Titles and (a sign of his respect with his peers), Players Player of the year 1975
  • 3 times PFA team of the year (74/75/76) and over 600 league appearances

LEFT BACK : Pat “Pyscho” van den Hauwe (84-87), uncompromising FB
  • Established fullback for a few seasons before Everton move in 1984 and part of the best Everton side ever
  • 2 League Titles, ECWC winner then moved to Spurs and won the F A Cup. Over 400 league appearances

DEEP MIDFIELDER : Jan Molby (84 -87), cultured midfielder with a variety of passing and an eye for a goal
  • Key member of the mid 80s Liverpool teams - started as a defensive midfielder in 1984/85 but moved further up field there after, to excellent effect
  • Key part the 1985/86 double winners where he showed his goal threat - 21 goals in 58 games in the season, with 14 in the league and a MOTM performance in the F A Cup Final
  • 2 league titles, 2 F A cup winners medals
  • 16th on the “100 players who shook the Kop” fan vote

LEFT CENTRE MIDFIELD : Terry McDermott (76-81), amazing B2B Mfer, great touch/shot
  • Key part of probably Liverpool’s best era (mid 70s - early 80s). The attacking foil to Souness’ defensive game, the link to the attack and for me, the best Liverpool midfielder (unless you don’t class Dalglish as a forward)
  • 5 League Titles (in 7 seasons), 3 European Cup wins, 1 UEFA Cup win and 2 League Cup wins
  • 1980 : PFA Team of the year, PFA Players Player of the year, FWA Player of the year!

RIGHT CENTRE MIDFIELD : Bryan Robson (81-91), the lot
  • Excellent player for (a very good) West Brom team - 1 in 5 goal-scoring record - before becoming British Transfer fee record (and worth every penny) and moving to United
  • 2 League Titles, 3 F A Cup wins, 1 ECWC win, 6 teams PFA team of the year
Club captain for 12 years, the best midfielder (player) in this draft…. Captain Marvel, legend, god

LEFT WING : John Robertson (77-80), deceptively talented winger
  • Part of a great team who worked their way up from Div.2 to European Cup winners twice
  • League champion, two European Cup winners medals (scored the winner in one), two League Cups
  • No truth in the rumour that Robertson said “I’ll join the BKTWR all-stars if Molby does…. He makes me look thin”
RIGHT WING : Trevor Steven (82-86), right-sided midfielder more than old style winger
  • 1st team debut at 18 before Howard Kendall saw his potential and signed him in 81 to become another member of the superb mid-80s Everton team. Then moved to Rangers as part of the English invasion and more success
  • Everton : 2 League titles, F A Cup win, ECWC win (scored in semi and final)
  • Rangers (in draft time period) : 2 League titles, 1 Cup win
STRIKER : Brian McClair (86-94), goal-scorer
  • Big move to Celtic in 1983 and scored 99 league goals in 145 games. League title and cup winner, top league scorer twice and 1987 was (Scottish) peak - 35 league goals, top scorer, Players player of the year, Writers player of the year
  • Man United for 12 seasons and in first season, became an instant legend by becoming first player since Best to get 20 league goals in a season. Won the fans Matt Busby player of the year award
  • In the draft time period, over 100 goals in 5 seasons for United, so 200+ 83-92
Tactics Team Enigma/The Red Viper

Formation: 4-3-3
Defensive line: normal
Style: direct, fast tempo. Two excellent goalscoring wide forwawrds in Trevor Francis and Kevin Sheedy, to open up and stretch the opposition defence. Liam Brady as playmaker and one of the best strikers in the pool in Lineker to finish off chances.

Short team profiles:

(GK) Jim Leighton - One of the very best Scottish keepers with 91 international caps to his name. Reached his peak at Aberdeen where he won number of silverware. Dependable and solid keeper who can be relied on.
Scottish Premier League (2): 1983–84, 1984–85
Scottish Cup (4): 1981–82, 1982–83, 1983–84, 1985–86
Scottish League Cup: 1985–86
European Cup Winners' Cup: 1982–83
European Super Cup: 1983

(LB) Nigel Winterburn - Top notch defensively, but no stranger going forward Winterburn was an integral part of Arsenal's defence for over a decade amassing more than 500 caps for Arsenal during that time. He was highly rated at Wimbledon as well, even before moving to Arsenal, winning the Wimbledon supporters Player Of The Year in each of the four seasons he spent at Plough Lane. Winterburn proved to be a fantastic crosser of the ball when be bombed forward to support an Arsenal attack, and his defensive virtues were frequently extolled, as he flanked a fantastic central defensive partnership of Tony Adams and Martin Keown.

(RB) Danny McGrain - The best right back in the pool. At the height of his powers he was considered the best RB in the world as well. Impeccable defensively and also pretty good going forward and stretching up the play.

(CB) Norman Hunter - Norman Hunter was a key part of a scary Leeds team in the 1970s, with a very physical—and direct style - and certainly one of the more imposing defenders ever seen in English football. After all, his nickname wasn't "Bite Yer Legs" for nothing.
Hunter, now 73, was a titan of a defender in an era when defenders lived up to their job title. He bullied opponents alongside Jack Charlton. With goalkeeper Gary Sprake, they formed a Bermuda Triangle where strikers just disappeared. Hunter developed a superb understanding with Jack Charlton that would serve the club for a decade. After winning the Division Two title, Hunter won Division One, FA Cup, Fairs Cup and League Cup honours. Named Leeds Player Of The Year in 1970/71 and PFA Player Of The Year in 1973, Hunter was quick, totally committed and possessed terrific positional awareness. He could also slice a defence open with a long raking pass and had a thunderous shot, as several goalkeepers discovered. Although not as “dirty” as a defender as his reputation suggested, Hunter was a hardman who never shirked a challenge. This attitude led to the odd spat, most famously with Derby County’s Francis Lee in 1975 when the pair were sent off for fighting in days when even bookings were rare. Hunter won 28 full caps (including one which made him the first England player ever to be capped as a substitute), scoring twice.

(CB) Des Walker - He is probably the best defender English football has produced since Bobby Moore at the time. We saw it proved a hundred times. A red-shirted shadow moving at top speed, a brush of the shoulder and a sudden deft flick of the boot. The perfect tackle: swift, silent and conclusive. It was Des Walker's speciality.

YOU'LL NE-VER beat Des Wal-ker. You'll ne-ver beat Des Wal-ker.

That's what they sang at the City Ground, with a matter-of-factness that mocked the efforts of the most renowned visiting forwards. To many of Nottingham Forest's fans, he was the finest player ever to pull on the Garibaldi shirt. They came to love his silent efficiency, the lack of wasted gesture, the erasure of emotion from his play.

In the 1990 World Cup, he was so outstanding that Gianni Agnelli was said to have bid up to pounds 8m to take him to Juventus.


(CM) Osvaldo Ardiles In the modern game, the Premier League has established itself as one of the top destinations for foreign football talent. Back in 1978 when a young Huracan midfielder named Osvaldo Ardiles was weighing up his options, however, the English game was far more parochial and closed off to outside influences.

Ardiles, perhaps more than anybody, helped to change that perception. The 1978 World Cup winner with Argentina represented Tottenham for four excellent seasons, winning the FA Cup in 1981 and establishing himself as a fans' favourite for years to come. One of the finest midfielders in the pool.

(CM) Frans Thijssen - A hard-nosed but extremely skillful player, Thijssen was your archetypal Dutch midfielder during his playing days. Along with compatriot Arnold Muhren, he joined Bobby Robson’s Ipswich Town and helped them become not only one of the leading clubs in England but also one that made waves in Europe. The achievement – and his superb performances – saw Thijssen win the prestigious English Footballer of the Year award. That was a golden period of his career, and after leaving Ipswich in 1983 he went on to play another eight seasons at Nottingham Forest, Vancouver, Fortuna Sittard, FC Groningen and Vitesse before hanging up his boots.

(AM) Liam Brady - Liam Brady was a special player with phenomenal talent. The elegant playmaker who defined Arsenal in the 1970s had it all - top notch work rate, great passing range - both long or short, eye for the goal and made things happen in midfield.

(RWF) Trevor Francis -He took the English football by storm scoring all four goals against Bolton Wanderers aged 16, February, 1971, on only his ninth start.“An astonishing player," says Bolton general manager Nat Lofthouse.
Shortly after arriving to take over as manager in 1977, Sir Alf Ramsey — a man not given to hyperbole —said of the Birmingham No 8: ‘There is no better player in the country than Trevor Francis.’ Trevor Francis was one of the best players of his generation who enjoyed a long and successful playing career. He was a forward with acceleration and style who was always very dangerous around the penalty area. He was the first Britain £ 1 million player when moving to Nottingham Forest in 1979. He also had a great record when playing for Detroit Express, where he scored 36 goals in 33 matches. He had previously scored 128 goals for Birmingham before his move to Forest.
Trevor Francis was one of the most respected and feared forwards in English football during his heyday, scored two goals at the World Cup in 1982, including the opener in England's 2-0 win over Czechoslovakia in the group stage.

(LWF) Kevin Sheedy - Kevin Sheedy a man the Blues consider to have one of the best left pegs ever seen in top-flight football - 97 goals in 357 starts, from midfield - and countless, countless assists. In all, the tricky winger with a supreme left foot managed just five appearances for Liverpool before braving the short trip across Stanley Park, where he was a revelation.

Accolades:
Football League First Division (2):
1984–85, 1986–87
FA Cup (1): 1984
European Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1985
FA Charity Shield (4): 1984, 1985, 1986 (shared), 1987

(CF) Gary Lineker - Gary Lineker is by far and away England's greatest ever World Cup striker, having managed to double the number of goals scored by his closest challenger. Very few England players have possessed Lineker's instincts inside the box, with his ability to score goals, particularly from close range, his defining skill.

Lineker was an English striker who veered far from convention. He wasn’t particularly physical, and his shots weren’t laced with power. Instead, he relied upon his technical and mental characteristics to find the net. He was, quintessentially, brain over brawn.

Often found lingering on the shoulder of the last man, his positional sense and concentration were second to none. As a result he was able to find space in even the tightest of penalty boxes; getting on the end of crosses to bag innumerable tap-ins, his job may have seemed easy, but that’s only because he made it look so.

An opportunist with a sophisticated touch, Lineker was nimble, fast of thought and foot, and an unerringly precise finisher. One chance was all he needed, and his ability to deceive defences to create room for those chances saw him aptly earn the nickname ‘El Matador’.

His individual records speak for itself:
English Second Division Top Scorer: 1982–83
English First Division Top Scorer: 1984–85, 1985–86, 1989–90
PFA Players' Player of the Year: 1985–86
FWA Footballer of the Year: 1985–86, 1991–92
FIFA World Cup Golden Boot: 1986
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1986
Onze de Bronze: 1986
Ballon d'Or: Runner-up 1986
FIFA Fair Play Award: 1990
FWA Tribute Award: 1997
FIFA World Player of the Year: Bronze award 1991
FIFA 100
English Football Hall of Fame:
2003
PFA Team of the Century (1977–1996): 2007

Team tactics and style:
Defence -
our defence has it all - two tough and defensively sound full backs in Winterburn and McGrain and one of the finest CB's in the pool at their very best in Walker and Hunter. All possess pace, agility and intelligence to keep the fort and protect Leighton.
Midfield - Ardiles and Thijssen both have starred for their teams with Ardiles one of Spurs best players of all time, and Thijssen winning the player of the year award. They are great on the ball but also sound defensively. Sheedy possesses top notch work rate, whilst Francis skillfulness and eye for the goal would see him occupy more the attacking third when we have the ball. Our midfield is complimented by Brady who will help in both phases flanked by Thijssen and Ardiles in their favorite box to box roles.
Attack - lead by one of the best #9's in the pool and two of the outstanding wingers/wing forwards in Francis and Sheedy, our attack doesn't lack creativity or finishing ability.

Advantages:
- Attack - One of the best #9's in the pool, flanked by Sheedy and Francis. Our attack is well balanced and complimented, especially with Brady pulling the strings from behind.
- Variety in attack and full of great goalscorers with respectable record - Francis, Brady, Lineker and Sheedy.
- very solid defensive unit composed well known and recognized names in the period we have in question, as well the best CB,LB and RB on the pitch.
- well competitive midfield with Brady, Thijssen and Ardiles participating in the midfield battle (with Sheedy dropping back when we're off the ball)
 
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All, hope my op post explains formation (with and without the ball) and where I feel my team will win the game/battle.... welcome any thoughts/questions.

Starter for ten, the midfield.

My midfield ALL bring a huge goal threat as shown across their careers and in big matches when it really counted.
  • An example of peak goals per season and key goals
  • Robertson : 18 (1978), 16 (79), 19 (80) including a European Cup Final winner
  • McDermott : 16 (1980), 22 (81), 20 (82) including a European Cup Final opener
  • Robson : 15 (1983), 18 (84), 14 (85) including so many wonder goals, I’ve lost count!
  • Steven : 15 (1984/85) including goals in the ECWC semi v Bayern and opener in the final
Opposition midfield.... you're looking at goals/season you can count on one hand? So.... they're not winning the goals contest.

Physicality then? Them pair Vs Robson/McDermott? No chance.

They're not going to win the midfield and they'll have minimal possession.... with more possession (or without), we're more of a threat going forward with a variety of options rather than pin all our hopes on one player.....

:cool:
 

The Red Viper

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All, hope my op post explains formation (with and without the ball) and where I feel my team will win the game/battle.... welcome any thoughts/questions.

Starter for ten, the midfield.

My midfield ALL bring a huge goal threat as shown across their careers and in big matches when it really counted.
  • An example of peak goals per season and key goals
  • Robertson : 18 (1978), 16 (79), 19 (80) including a European Cup Final winner
  • McDermott : 16 (1980), 22 (81), 20 (82) including a European Cup Final opener
  • Robson : 15 (1983), 18 (84), 14 (85) including so many wonder goals, I’ve lost count!
  • Steven : 15 (1984/85) including goals in the ECWC semi v Bayern and opener in the final
Opposition midfield.... you're looking at goals/season you can count on one hand? So.... they're not winning the goals contest.

Physicality then? Them pair Vs Robson/McDermott? No chance.

They're not going to win the midfield and they'll have minimal possession.... with more possession (or without), we're more of a threat going forward with a variety of options rather than pin all our hopes on one player.....

:cool:
Why are you comparing goals between the midfields and not the attacks, bro? :D
 

The Red Viper

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Also this idea that both Ardiles and Thijssen were just flair players is plain wrong.

Sure, they were extremely crafty players but they provided the graft as well. Thissen especially was a no-nonsense hardnosed midfielder.
 
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Jan Molby

Ranked 16 (over Neal, Beardsley, Heighway, Thompson, Kennedy, Lawrenson, etc) in the Liverpool poll of "100 players who shook the Kop" which reflects the great standing the fans held him in. They knew he was a class act who dictated the tempo of the mid 80s Liverpool team .... as did Hansen who said he was one of the best three players Liverpool have had.

Started as a defensive midfielder (and occasional sweeper) until Joe Fagin amazingly dropped him. When Dalglish took over, he said "I couldn't believe such a creative player was languishing in Liverpool reserves and I couldn't wait to use him" ...... "Jan had unbelievable feet and I defied anybody to state categorically which was the stronger, because either foot could propel the ball at unbelievable speed towards goal."

Perfect player to sit, help shield the defence when needed then break quickly with perfect control and either advance/shoot (as example below) or creat space and make a variety of passes to set up teammates (as examples below).... Robson and McDermott would have a field day.

His speed of thought, deceptive pace (!) and thumping shot can be evidenced by this goal....


His ability to score goals that most players wouldn't consider....


Man of the match performance in the F A Cup Final dictating play, setting up the first two and putting Whelan through to set up the third.


8:00 beautiful pass for Rush to score

9:53 cross for Johnston to score

10:30 a 'without even looking' pass to Whelan
 
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Why are you comparing goals between the midfields and not the attacks, bro? :D
Because the three man midfield (all class) will dominate, yoir midfield wont have the ball and your forwards won't get the chances.

Also this idea that both Ardiles and Thijssen were just flair players is plain wrong.

Sure, they were extremely crafty players but they provided the graft as well. Thissen especially was a no-nonsense hardnosed midfielder.
Examples of this? Love to see Ardiles doing a meaty challenge on an opponent in the 80s.... I don't remember them.
 

The Red Viper

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BeforeKeanetherewasRobson has got a very good team, but we feel we have a better team and should win this match.

BKTWR's strength is his midfield but our midfield is elite as well. He probably has the edge as he has the best midfielder in Robbo. But, our midfield can hold their own ground against his. Both Brady and Thijssen won the Player Of The Year awards and Ossie was an outstanding midfielder himself. Where we do have an advantage is the attack and the defense. We have a much better defense which can restrict BKTWR's attack. And upfront, we have the firepower in Lineker and Francis and the creativity of Brady, Sheedy and Ossie to provide them with ammo to do the necessary damage.
 

The Red Viper

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Because the three man midfield (all class) will dominate, yoir midfield wont have the ball and your forwards won't get the chances.
C'mon bro.

Like I said, you've got a very good midfield but I am not buying that we won't have the ball. We will have plenty of the ball. All three of our midfielders, Brady, Ossie and Thijssen were absolute wizards with the ball at their feet and were outstanding dribblers. They could turn on a dime and get out of tight spaces comfortably. So, I expect us to see a lot of the ball because we have got players who are extremely good at retaining the possession!
 
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BeforeKeanetherewasRobson has got a very good team, but we feel we have a better team and should win this match.

BKTWR's strength is his midfield but our midfield is elite as well. He probably has the edge as he has the best midfielder in Robbo. But, our midfield can hold their own ground against his. Both Brady and Thijssen won the Player Of The Year awards and Ossie was an outstanding midfielder himself. Where we do have an advantage is the attack and the defense. We have a much better defense which can restrict BKTWR's attack. And upfront, we have the firepower in Lineker and Francis and the creativity of Brady, Sheedy and Ossie to provide them with ammo to do the necessary damage.
:lol:

Some things are opinions but those two... elite? Not a chance.

How is Thijssen elite? Because of his four years and a few goals for Ipswich?

Ardiles? For a few (full) seasons for Spurs and even less goals, when he wasn't even the best midfielder in the team.

They managed to have a decent few years in teams that suited their ability and against even matchups. Here they're against the best midfielder in the draft, McDermott (brilliant) and Molby (a Rolls Royce of a player)..... any two of them would have a field day against Ardiles/Thijssen but the THREE of them??!!!
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Also this idea that both Ardiles and Thijssen were just flair players is plain wrong.

Sure, they were extremely crafty players but they provided the graft as well. Thissen especially was a no-nonsense hardnosed midfielder.
I did comment on this combo last game too. I consider them well rounded CMs. It's like playing a Gerrard/Lampard combo as a midfield base in a 4-2-3-1. Nothing wrong, but not really ideal either.
 
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I did comment on this combo last game too. I consider them well rounded CMs. It's like playing a Gerrard/Lampard combo as a midfield base in a 4-2-3-1. Nothing wrong, but not really ideal either.
Yes, exactly that... " Well rounded" but neither were the best midfielder in their team (Hoddle, Muhren) plus they only have a short time in the draft criteria time period? Also, they worked ok because of their teammates.... here, they're not a natural fit, they're just names.

They're up against THE best midfielder and McDermott who won pretty much everything.... more than once?! No one can say either of them were only good because of their teammates?
 

Gio

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@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson your write-up refers to Channon rather than McClair up top. Like your use of McClair though, his goalscoring record as a proper striker was top class, scoring something like 160 goals over the course of 5 seasons.

Enigma and TRV steady all over with Brady/Lineker looking particularly tasty.

Only tactical observation is that Robbo and McDermott as basically 20-goals-a-season midfielders in their pomp could over-run the opposition here, particularly on the break with Robertson stretching play down and servicing from the left.

Jan Molby


Man of the match performance in the F A Cup Final dictating play, setting up the first two and putting Whelan through to set up the third.


8:00 beautiful pass for Rush to score

9:53 cross for Johnston to score

10:30 a 'without even looking' pass to Whelan
Love Craig Johnston's desperate attempt to claim Rush's goal there as it's crossing the line. :lol:
 
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@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson your write-up refers to Channon rather than McClair up top. Like your use of McClair though, his goalscoring record as a proper striker was top class, scoring something like 160 goals over the course of 5 seasons.

Enigma and TRV steady all over with Brady/Lineker looking particularly tasty.

Only tactical observation is that Robbo and McDermott as basically 20-goals-a-season midfielders in their pomp could over-run the opposition here, particularly on the break with Robertson stretching play down and servicing from the left.


Love Craig Johnston's desperate attempt to claim Rush's goal there as it's crossing the line. :lol:
Thanks, just noticed.... changed mind a few times!

It'd be stupid to argue that Brady and Lineker weren't very good players they were but Lineker especially needed a team to do all the leg work and set him up with clear chances (he wasn't a creator?). As you say, peak Robson and McDermott will overrun Ardiles/Thijssen meaning more control, never mind a MUCH bigger goal threat.

(Johnstone was a tw@t).
 

Enigma_87

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I see the notion that BKTWR is trying to sell his midfield as that's his major selling point, but there are loads of other matchup that are equally and more decisive.

First of all Gary Lineker met O'Leary in the First Division at his pump in 85/86 and scored a brace when Everton gazumped them 6-1:


https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2559386


^^^ this is again Lineker without O'Leary in the lineup scoring another brace in the FA cup.
 

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There is another matchup that is also IMO in our favor.

McGrain vs Robertson - one of the best right backs at his time against BKTWR main attacking threat alongside McClair:



"Celtic legend Danny McGrain was the best British player I ever came up against"


LEIGHTON James played over 50 times for Wales in the 1970s and 1980s and came up against some renowned opponents in an international career which spanned 12 years.

But the former Derby County, Queens Park Rangers and Swansea City winger is in no doubt about who his most formidable adversaries were during that time.

James felt the games against Scotland were always the toughest due to the quality of the full-back that he found himself up against.

Indeed, he rates Celtic legend Danny McGrain as the best player from the British Isles that he ever squared up to during his distinguished playing days.


“Scotland have got their two first choice full-backs out injured and they have still got a lot of options there,” he said. “But they have always been quite well placed for full-backs. I played against Danny McGrain and Sandy Jardine.

“Danny is the best British player I ever played against. If he was a player today he would be in the Premier League in England. He was a top full-back. He would be too good, too big, to play in the Scottish Premiership. The same would be true of Sandy as well.”
 

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and of course another player who deserves a mention - Trevor Francis:




Neymar and Philippe Coutinho have been bought for fees in the hundreds of millions, but there was a time when a single million got you the top talent

In an era when footballers are traded between clubs for hundreds of millions, the idea of a £1 million transfer probably doesn't seem that interesting.

But, nearly four decades ago, it was an historic fee and one that Nottingham Forest paid to Birmingham City to secure the talents of Trevor Francis.

The striker became known as England's first £1 million player and his career subsequently took him to a number of different countries.

Francis has commented on the fact that he is still widely referred to as "The £1m Man" by media and fans, joking that you would be forgiven for thinking that it was the only thing he did.

"I found myself trying to justify the £1m," he told the Daily Mail in 2009. "You have to be yourself and play your own game. There was a pressure lifted when I got my first goal against Bolton." However, he went some way towards justifying the historic fee some four months after arriving at the City Ground when he scored the winning goal in the 1979 European Cup final against Malmo in Munich - his European debut for the club.

"To this day whether it be a luncheon or an evening dinner, I’m always introduced as: 'The £1m man'," he told the Daily Mail. "I played first-team football at 16. I was 39 when I finished at Sheffield Wednesday. That’s a long career, longer than most. I had nine years with England winning 52 caps. I played in the World Cup.

"I also played in Italy and Scotland for very big, prestigious clubs. But sometimes you’d think the only thing I did was to be transferred for £1m. And, do you know, I’m quite proud of it."

Indeed, as he said himself, Francis' playing career lasted an amazing 24 years and he won two European Cups. He scored 12 goals in 52 appearances for England and featured at the 1982 World Cup.

His career began at Birmingham City when he burst onto the scene as a 16-year-old with an eye for goal. He spent nine seasons with Birmingham before making the historic move to Nottingham Forest in 1979.

Francis remained at the City Ground for three full seasons, winning two European Cups, before signing for Man City in 1981, but his time there was brief as he moved to Italy to join Sampdoria in 1982. Then 28, he spent four seasons with the Genoa club, helping them to a Coppa Italia triumph in 1985 before moving on to Atalanta in 1986.

Francis returned to the UK in 1987, linking up with Graeme Souness at Rangers, before moving south to Queens Park Rangers in the spring of 1988. He finished his career at Sheffield Wednesday, winding down his playing days from 1990 to 1994.

Francis briefly served as player-manager at QPR during his time there and was also player-manager of Wednesday from 1991 until 1995, guiding them to the final of the FA Cup and League Cup in 1993. He later had spells at the helm of Birmingham City (1996-2001) and Crystal Palace (2001-2003).
 

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@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson your write-up refers to Channon rather than McClair up top. Like your use of McClair though, his goalscoring record as a proper striker was top class, scoring something like 160 goals over the course of 5 seasons.

Enigma and TRV steady all over with Brady/Lineker looking particularly tasty.

Only tactical observation is that Robbo and McDermott as basically 20-goals-a-season midfielders in their pomp could over-run the opposition here, particularly on the break with Robertson stretching play down and servicing from the left.


Love Craig Johnston's desperate attempt to claim Rush's goal there as it's crossing the line. :lol:
BKTWR has advantage in midfield, but I think we do have an "elite" midfield considering the pool. Ardiles is comfortably one of the best CM's in the pool, whilst Thijssen won the player of the year award and scored 2 in the UEFA cup final in 1981 - with Ipswich winning an European trophy - a great feat for that side.

Bar those two we also have Brady who has an excellent work rate and often started moves from deep whilst obviously worked in the defensive phase.

Apart from this I think our players counter pretty well BKTWR strengths - McGrain against Robertson - Danny is no stranger to all time drafts and is often picked as one of the 16 best right backs of all time and whilst Robertson is obviously quality I'd rather back up McGrain getting the best of him considering both careers and peak level.

On the other side McClair seems a bit lonely up top and he faces another winner of best player of the year in Norman and Des Walker who can match him in strength and pace.

That is besides the spare CB we have to watch over some of BKTWR midfielders breaking free and intercepting him.

IMO we have advantage both in defence and offence and his best players in the attacking phase come against one of the best defenders in the pool in their respective positions in Des and McGrain.
 
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I see the notion that BKTWR is trying to sell his midfield as that's his major selling point, but there are loads of other matchup that are equally and more decisive.

First of all Gary Lineker met O'Leary in the First Division at his pump in 85/86 and scored a brace when Everton gazumped them 6-1:

^^^ this is again Lineker without O'Leary in the lineup scoring another brace in the FA cup.
First, the midfield is not my only selling point (though it's definitely an important one.... I'm still waiting for some proof that Ardiles and Thijssen could handle themselves??)

But if your selling point is picking ONE game where Lineker scores, thats taking the voters for gullible... they're not. Anyone can pick one game to try and sell a player..... as my op shows, my team did it for seasons and seasons and in important games.

But being as you've started this diversionary tactic, how about we look at a meaningful game.... a Cup Final?

1992, a Forest team captained by Des Walker played a United team that included Brian McClair. Who scored the only goal AND was man of the match? ..... Brian McClair.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Football_League_Cup_Final

It seems you CAN beat Des Walker? :cool:

But as you've mentioned Lineker as apparently a threat for you..... in this draft criteria (per op), he scored 221 goals. Same draft criteria, Brian McClair scored 247.
 
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Opposition quote "On the other side McClair seems a bit lonely up top and he faces another winner of best player of the year in Norman and Des Walker who can match him in strength and pace."

18 seconds in. Des Walker chasing Giggs like a headless chicken and leaving a big hole to allow McClair to score the winner (as part of a MoTM performance).

 
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Well rounded" but neither were the best midfielder in their team (Hoddle, Muhren)
Now that im out of the game....I was going through Ipswich best players list. Wark is rated ahead of Thijssen with Muhren behind both. It's just that not much is known about him both in Ipswich and in Netherlands. Though I personally rate Muhren higher.
 

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First, the midfield is not my only selling point (though it's definitely an important one.... I'm still waiting for some proof that Ardiles and Thijssen could handle themselves??)

But if your selling point is picking ONE game where Lineker scores, thats taking the voters for gullible... they're not. Anyone can pick one game to try and sell a player..... as my op shows, my team did it for seasons and seasons and in important games.

But being as you've started this diversionary tactic, how about we look at a meaningful game.... a Cup Final?

1992, a Forest team captained by Des Walker played a United team that included Brian McClair. Who scored the only goal AND was man of the match? ..... Brian McClair.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Football_League_Cup_Final

It seems you CAN beat Des Walker? :cool:

But as you've mentioned Lineker as apparently a threat for you..... in this draft criteria (per op), he scored 221 goals. Same draft criteria, Brian McClair scored 247.
I think Lineker vs O'Leary was relevant which is why I brought it up mate. You can bring up McClair as well of course, but the example you shown he wasn't played as a lone striker but has Hughes alongside him, which is quite different to this matchup.

As for McClair - he was prolific for Celtic - true, but never reached Lineker's numers in First Division.

He had one season where he scored 20 goals or more. Lineker had 3 in a row before moving to Barca.

2 times footballer of the year, 3 times top scorer in First division, etc. Besides Lineker has the support of Sheedy, Francis and Brady.

McClair is on his own up front and Robertson is matched pretty well vs McGrain.


Sheedy/Winterburn flank is also very workmanship one and matches up pretty well Steven and Irwin(who didn't reach his prime just yet in the time span)
 
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Now that im out of the game....I was going through Ipswich best players list. Wark is rated ahead of Thijssen with Muhren behind both. It's just that not much is known about him both in Ipswich and in Netherlands. Though I personally rate Muhren higher.
Absolutely agree about Muhren, lovely player.

Apart from other Ipswich midfielders being better than Thijssen, he only has FOUR seasons in the draft criteria, where he was a decent player in a decent team (bit like Villa 81/82).
 

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I did comment on this combo last game too. I consider them well rounded CMs. It's like playing a Gerrard/Lampard combo as a midfield base in a 4-2-3-1. Nothing wrong, but not really ideal either.
Nah, Gerrard and Lampard were quite different players mate. More technical players like Ardiles and Thijssen would fit each other much better, rather than the Gerrard/Lampard for example.

Besides Thijssen and Ardiles were paired with exactly the same types of players (more technical ones and midfielders on the same wavelength) in Hoddle and Muhren and starred in very much similar setups.
 
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I think Lineker vs O'Leary was relevant which is why I brought it up mate. You can bring up McClair as well of course, but the example you shown he wasn't played as a lone striker but has Hughes alongside him, which is quite different to this matchup.

As for McClair - he was prolific for Celtic - true, but never reached Lineker's numers in First Division.

He had one season where he scored 20 goals or more. Lineker had 3 in a row before moving to Barca.

2 times footballer of the year, 3 times top scorer in First division, etc. Besides Lineker has the support of Sheedy, Francis and Brady.

McClair is on his own up front
and Robertson is matched pretty well vs McGrain.


Sheedy/Winterburn flank is also very workmanship one and matches up pretty well Steven and Irwin(who didn't reach his prime just yet in the time span)
This is what happened in the last game (EAP had similar comments made against him) where people used one rule for their side and another for the opposition.

So your two wingers and one midfielder (you said Brady was a midfielder) will support Lineker but mine will ignore McClair and leave him all alone?
 
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I think Lineker vs O'Leary was relevant which is why I brought it up mate. You can bring up McClair as well of course, but the example you shown he wasn't played as a lone striker but has Hughes alongside him, which is quite different to this matchup.

As for McClair - he was prolific for Celtic - true, but never reached Lineker's numers in First Division.

He had one season where he scored 20 goals or more. Lineker had 3 in a row before moving to Barca.

2 times footballer of the year, 3 times top scorer in First division, etc. Besides Lineker has the support of Sheedy, Francis and Brady.

McClair is on his own up front and Robertson is matched pretty well vs McGrain.


Sheedy/Winterburn flank is also very workmanship one and matches up pretty well Steven and Irwin(who didn't reach his prime just yet in the time span)
Next....

The draft is English and Scottish games so not sure why you'd dismiss McClairs Scottish goals.... is that league no good or something?

Again, you've also glossed over the fact that in this draft criteria (which is what we're basing votes on) McClair outscores Lineker.
 

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This is what happened in the last game (EAP had similar comments made against him) where people used one rule for their side and another for the opposition.

So your two wingers and one midfielder (you said Brady was a midfielder) will support Lineker but mine will ignore McClair and leave him all alone?
Well for starters your LB is a defensive one who won’t support the attack and Robertson on that side and the latter comes agains McGrain who is the best RB in the draft.

Brady is our playmaker and he’ll no doubt be spraying passes but of course he’ll participate in the midfield battle in the same way Sheedy will drop back to support the midfield.
 

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Next....

The draft is English and Scottish games so not sure why you'd dismiss McClairs Scottish goals.... is that league no good or something?

Again, you've also glossed over the fact that in this draft criteria (which is what we're basing votes on) McClair outscores Lineker.
I have no problems with that mate. In fact one of our best defenders played in the Scottish league. The reason why I brought up their respective records in First division is because that’s equal playing field - they played at the same time in the same league and against pretty much same opposition - hence a better description than purely by going with total numbers.
 
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I have no problems with that mate. In fact one of our best defenders played in the Scottish league. The reason why I brought up their respective records in First division is because that’s equal playing field - they played at the same time in the same league and against pretty much same opposition - hence a better description than purely by going with total numbers.
Not exactly.

The three seasons you're looking at are Lineker in his early to mid 20's? when he got 3 seasons of 20+ league goals and 76 in total.

At the same age, McClair was at Celtic then United and also had 3 seasons of 20+ league goals ..... and 81 goals. As before, Scottish league can't be dismissed as not comparable (I really liked that league in the 80s, good competition).
 

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Good, spirited debate in here so far :D. Voted BKTWR for now. I like the opposition's Ardiles/Thijssen/Brady midfield in its own right, but strangely feel like it would function better in a wider draft pool that would allow for a more possession-based overall setup. As it is I can see them getting overrun by that Molby/Robson/McDermott juggernaut, who would probably establish a decisive level of control. I fecking love Brady though, and he could easily turn the game around with a moment of magic.
 

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Perhaps the United experts can advise? Was the variation in McClair’s return more to do with his role? I know he played in midfield a lot and moreso later in his career.
 
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Brian McClair
  • 99 goals in 145 games for Celtic
  • League title and cup winner, top league scorer twice and in 1987 35 league goals, top scorer, Players player of the year, Writers player of the year
  • First season for United, 24 league goals in 40 games
  • Instant legend and fans PoTY with The Matt Busby Award
  • First five seasons, total of 101 goals
  • Striker, left foot, right foot, header, inside the box, outside the box

"He's here, he's there.... he's every fecking where, Brian McClair, Brian McClair".
 
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Not exactly.

The three seasons you're looking at are Lineker in his early to mid 20's? when he got 3 seasons of 20+ league goals and 76 in total.

At the same age, McClair was at Celtic then United and also had 3 seasons of 20+ league goals ..... and 81 goals. As before, Scottish league can't be dismissed as not comparable (I really liked that league in the 80s, good competition).
When do you consider McClair's peak tho? And obviously despite hitting those figures at Celtic he couldn't maintain them in England and here is playing in a bit different role than what he used to play for United playing off Hughes in the FA cup game you cited above.

The defences and playing style at the time Lineker and McClair were generally the same and Lineker didn't play in Scotland - hence I brought the example which is more accurate to judge on their goalscoring abilities.

Generally Lineker is playing in his zone here having better support in attack, whilst you put more bodies in midfield, and McClair is playing as some sort of withdrawn striker without a target man to feed off from.
 

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Good, spirited debate in here so far :D. Voted BKTWR for now. I like the opposition's Ardiles/Thijssen/Brady midfield in its own right, but strangely feel like it would function better in a wider draft pool that would allow for a more possession-based overall setup. As it is I can see them getting overrun by that Molby/Robson/McDermott juggernaut, who would probably establish a decisive level of control. I fecking love Brady though, and he could easily turn the game around with a moment of magic.
Same here.

Though we seem to be in agreement....and that can't be right :D