If we hadnt recently beaten Liverpool, Spurs and City without him, id be more concerned about how vital he is to the squad. At present I think we are fine either way - so neither saving face or assuming he is def leaving
Martial has got to remain at United | No, he hasn't been unfollowing United players on Instagram
- Thread starter beingshe7don
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It took De Bruyne a further few years of development before making the step up to a big club and Jose in that time won the league with his replacement. Point remains, if a manager doesn't think a player is fulfilling what he expects and what he thinks is required to be succesful as a club, they're not going to risk jeopardising any chance they have at success by opting to play those players.
Not to add, it's laughable to even compare the two situations. Martial has been getting more than enough game time, he's playing at one of the biggest clubs in the World, if he's not comfortable with competition then he's at the wrong club. He's a young talented player who is behind a better, more experienced player, hardly something out of the ordinary. There is a plethora of talented youngsters in similar situations at the other top clubs. Hell, if Pep managed to get Sanchez, one of Sane or Sterling would have been in a similar situation, had it not been for him choosing us.
It's hardly as if Jose is freezing him out, he will play a respectable amount next season, but fact of the matter is that Sanchez will offer us more over the course of the season when vying for major trophies as he's simply a better player and suits our style of play more. If he wants more game time, all power to him, but I don't buy that it's the end of the World. We've lost far better players and been fine, we're hardly a cash strapped club in meltdown.
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It is results deiven sport now and Martial's contribution this season has been quite good taking into account the amount of playing time he got. He won competition on left flank against Rashford, and then we sign Sanchez and play him in exactly the same position. So we have 3 class players on the left, Mata and Lingard on the right, basically no regular back up for Lukaku. Unless you are suggesting that Martial is doing sweet feck all at training, I see 0 evidence of him sulking. The lad was given no 9 shirt (striker), then was shifted to the left because of Ibra. Ibra left, we signed Lukaku. Martial was doing well on the left competing with Rashers and then we sign Sanchez. I can see where Tony's frustration is coming from. He contributed more this season than Sanchez and Rashford. By the way he will cost more than both of them too.
Ah the good old stats argument. Stats don't account for Martial's feck all movement off the ball, his lackadaisical tracking back etc. all things that Lingard offer the team. With Pogba lacking positional discipline and being better farther forward and Matic lacking mobility, Lingard's ability to drop into midfield to act as a third/fourth midfielder does wonders for the team. Not to add his movement which is the best in the team, dragging defenders away, creating space for other players to flourish. It's really no surprise that some of our biggest (best?) wins have come with him somehow contributing.
There's more to contribution than simply assists and goals. If it purely came down to that, players like Silva etc. wouldn't be considered amongst the best.
Do I think Martial could play that position in place of Jesse? Absolutely. Do I think he will get opportunities if he decides to stay? Of course. Do I think he'd compliment our two outfield best players as much as as Lingard would? Who knows.
I find it odd though, considering the circle jerk around Klopp's football and how Liverpool play around here, yet all their players are amongst the hardest working players in the league. Firminho never stops running ffs. Yet people then are happy to push players like Lingard who do that stuff to the side to watch Martial stroll around for large parts of the game. Lingard is constantly making runs off the ball, harrying opposition players when out of posession and dropping into midfield to provide an extra body.
As I've said before, he's a young talented player playing at one of the biggest clubs in World football. Unless you're a generational talent, you're going to be behind the more experienced and superior players in those kinds of environments. All those players are happy to wait for their opportunity, if Martial isn't, all power to him but it'd hardly be the end of the World. We'd be fine, we've lost far better.
It's hardly as if Jose is forcing him out, I'm sure he'd be delighted to keep him. That being said, he had the opportunity to sign one of the best players in the premier league, one which is starting to look like a great transfer which could lead us to great success next season, he was never going to turn his nose up at that.
For the love of God, are you basing this on body language or what? To sum it up: his goals and assists ratio per minutes is good. Now please tell me when did he lose his marker and cost us a goal. You can also check turnovers of his and Sanchez if you wish. And we play nothing like Pool because of Jose's tactics. Anyways, we are going in circles. Lets agree to disagree and move on.
What does body language have to do with anything? What? Also did you completely disregard my whole post, the whole jist of it wasn't that Martial's goals and assists ratio wasn't impressive, simply that there's far more a player can offer to a team than simply stat padding.
Sanchez turns the ball over a lot, that's simply because he's always being proactive and trying risky plays to force an issue, that's hardly news, it's been known for a while, don't know what that has to do with the discussion though. Are you suggesting Martial is a better player than Sanchez?
We might play nothing like Pool because of Jose's tactics, fair enough, but Lingard is far more similar to a Pool player than current Martial is. Klopp's teams all bust their bollocks every game and never stop running, harrying opposition players, pressing, moving off the ball. Lingard is amongst the best in our squad at those things, Martial just isn't.
Martial isn't lazy, but in comparison to Lingard, he's nowhere near. It's really no surprise that Martial's best season for us came under LVG, when he was camped up the field, waiting for the ball into his feet to run at isolated defenders, not getting involved all over the pitch and dropping into midfield/defence like Sanchez and Lingard do.
I don't think Martial isn't a great prospect, he is. I'd be delighted if we managed to keep him. That being said, there are certain areas of his game that leave you wanting, which when not looked at through a bias perspective, makes it understandable why certain managers might prefer a different style of player. Don't get me wrong, Martial would be much better under more attacking managers like Pep or Klopp, but even then, they'd need time to develop his movement off the ball, his ability to press, to close opposition players down, to work the channels etc.
Also ye, agree to disagree.
The mentioning of KDB and Salah on every page is such a weak argument and tedious as hell. Where were you guys when KDB/Salah left Chelsea? Hindsight is a beautiful thing ain't it?
If Mourinho, or any other top managers, have a 100% success rate at spotting a player's potential few years into the future, he would be dominating world football for decades.
But no, let's just continue bashing Mourinho for his two "mistakes".
If Mourinho, or any other top managers, have a 100% success rate at spotting a player's potential few years into the future, he would be dominating world football for decades.
But no, let's just continue bashing Mourinho for his two "mistakes".
1) Not body language. I think it's pretty simple to analyse a player by actually watching a game. How can we tell if Martial tracks back or not? By watching him play. How can we tell if Martial is working hard on the pitch? By watching him play. How can we tell if Martial has positional discipline? Again, by watching him play. Not with bloody stats ffs. Stats can tell you Martial runs 50km per game for all I care, but it sure doesn't necessarily mean he makes good runs.
2) Yes his goals and assist ratio is good. Is this the "be all and end all" stat? Shall we just use this stat to scout future players from now on? Have you ever considered other aspects to the game? Like the quality of opposition he has scored against? How many winners has he scored? How many consolation goals has he scored? Are there tap-ins/penalties or does we create space for himself for the goal? Just wish people can stop obsessing with stats.
3) Again with the stats. Personally, I don't see turnover stats as a big deal. Higher turnover stats, IMO, means that the player at least tries to do something. Nani was efficient for us during his time and I'd bet his turnover stats are in the high numbers too.
Just my two cents.
perfect, so we are getting to facts.
1. Show me a game where Martial did not track back and cost us a goal. I have seen Pogba doing that, Matic, but yet to see Martial not tracking back.
2. Classify the goals for attackers then. For me, an attacker needs to contribute goals- and assists- wise. Martial did very well when he was played. He is usually on left flank and the fact that he is surrounded by 2-3 players show how dangerous he is for the opposition. Now I am waiting for a video which proves that Martial was selfish and did not pass the ball to a team mate when one was available.
3. Nobody said that turnovers are big deal. Before jumping into conversation do bother to read the whole context. I brought up turnovers because they show followings:
a) quality of a pass
b) off the ball movement by team players
c) vulnerability to a counter attack.
So, my last lines to you would be as follows: martial did well, when he played. He was utilized on left flank where he is usually surrounded by 2-3 players, and gets little help from a full-back (overlapping) or midfielders and CF who are supposed to utilize the free space that Martial opens up for them by dragging opposition players onto himself.
Sanchez' best form at Arsenal was when he played as a false 9, couple this with a midfield 3, lukaku and martial and i think its the best team i've seen yet. Never thought of that but that would be perfect.
I honestly don't understand what more Martial can do, based on how he's played this season he is the superior player to Rashford and Sanchez. Sanchez and Rashford are currently inferior players. Sanchez is poor at retaining possession, yes sometimes he loses the ball because he tries things, but sometimes he just loses the ball for no reason at all. Sometimes Sanchez tries something when it isn't the right time to do so, like hes forcing it.
Maybe Controversial but: I think if we didn't sign Sanchez we'd still be in the champions league right now.
Maybe Controversial but: I think if we didn't sign Sanchez we'd still be in the champions league right now.
It is not that easy. If you are fighting for titles, you try and you must play with best 11. Look at barca, real, juve, city, bayern... when did they produce player from academy last time? And roster has also huge role. It is easy to put young player in squad and rotate him when you don't have top option on his position. But when you have for example lukaku and sanchez in attack, how to tell them; " you will be in rotation" or " if you don't do something in 60 mins i will bench you". And young players who know that they are good( or have agents who tell them that they are better than they really are) doesn't want to warm a bench couple of seasons.
City has allegedly best academy in england. Do you see in near future any of those players to get a chance? They had two medium term injuries on the wings and they immediately wanted to buy mahrez.
I am sure that mourinho wanted de bruyne and salah in the club. Just like he wants martial and rashford. But if they want to play every match, he can't guarantee that.
People act as if KdB and Salah were a huge loss to Chelsea. The reality is that Chelsea had Hazard and Willian keeping them out of the team who have been massive players for them in winning 2 PL titles.
If Martial is 'our KdB' then sell him immediately! Because that means we are gonna win 2 titles in the next 3 seasons.
Tactically Martial is an issue, he might be effective personally at times as he has good technique but he doesn't drop in like Sanchez does or stretch the play like Rashford. He still wants the ball to feet rather than making the runs which slows everything down.
He could do with going and watching how Pires used to operate, they have very simmilar shooting technique but Pires worked his arse off to make the runs and that was in a 442 where he had defensive responsibility as well.
I can't agree with that about the Champions League. Signing Sanchez didn't cost us in the Champions League, being utterly inept at both ends of the field in 2 games did that.
Yep, the manager's awful tactics cost us against Sevilla.
Martial would have been horrible against Sevilla at OT because we were pumping long balls to Fellaini. Martial plays on the ground, he is a technical forward.
Yeah, agreed.
I agree
Imagine being a Chelsea supporter and watching Salah this season and especially last night. I guess that feeling is about to become familiar.
If Chelsea had the foresight to keep KDB, Salah and Lukaku, can you imagine?
Yeah, they won one league, but those three along with hazard, they would be crushing all in their way. That's the difference between short term returns and long term building.
But I guess that's what we get with Mou, he's a short term manager who is far more concerned with his trophy haul, can't fault him for that.
If Chelsea had the foresight to keep KDB, Salah and Lukaku, can you imagine?
Yeah, they won one league, but those three along with hazard, they would be crushing all in their way. That's the difference between short term returns and long term building.
But I guess that's what we get with Mou, he's a short term manager who is far more concerned with his trophy haul, can't fault him for that.
He has the crown to the most overrated player in United's history. He hasn't even achieve anything yet at the club yet he has his legion of blind fans around here, it's beyond ridiculous
Wow good point, how has no one mentioned this before?
Wow, brand new information!
Seriously though, you need to take some time off Football Manager if you think real footballing aspects are as simple as that.
Salah permanently transferred from Roma from Chelsea on the 3rd of August 2016.
Mourinho was OUR bloody manager at that time.
Press - Mourinho sold Salah.
Mourinho was OUR bloody manager at that time.
Press - Mourinho sold Salah.
Eh? Salah was loaned out with option to buy. Roma took that option.
It wasn't Jose who sold him, it was Chelsea board though but it happened during Jose's time.
To be absolutely blunt, would you like Martial with his downbeat demeanor in the trenches next to you when the going gets tough.....me neither!
He's far too inconsistent and seems weak minded when he should be bloody minded and busting a gut with the attitude that says and displays on the pitch to Mourinho I'm undroppable but no he'd rather brood and strop when he's the actual author of his own downfall!
He's far too inconsistent and seems weak minded when he should be bloody minded and busting a gut with the attitude that says and displays on the pitch to Mourinho I'm undroppable but no he'd rather brood and strop when he's the actual author of his own downfall!
Will be a huge loss if he goes, got potential to be another one of those players who will haunt Jose in a few years the way Salah and De Bruyne have.
If you read or listen to any interview with a player they all talk very highly of Martial. Sanchez coming in hasn't helped his cause either. If he wants out than by all means you don't want any player at the club who doesn't want to be there but i'd be doing my upmost to keep him on board as he could be one of the worlds best in the future.
If you read or listen to any interview with a player they all talk very highly of Martial. Sanchez coming in hasn't helped his cause either. If he wants out than by all means you don't want any player at the club who doesn't want to be there but i'd be doing my upmost to keep him on board as he could be one of the worlds best in the future.
I like him but it appears too much like hard work to get a consistent tune out of him. The abilities there but just like his position in the French national side, there are better options that you generally know what you are getting. Like said already, not sure Jose ever really liked him but another inherited player that he is obligated to do something with. He'll probably be sold for 50m and the money used for a more Jose type player which will be a shame but no surprise when signing Sanchez as shown that football isn't just about having great attacking skills....
I like how Mourinho is still blamed for KdB and Salah despite the shitshow that is the Chelsea transfer policy. Do people not remember Emenalo refusing to refer to Mourinho by name in a statement after he was sacked? Granovskaia has been growing in influence since she came, there's every chance that she was the one that sanctioned both moves and Mourinho had no influence. In fact, Mourinho complained about lack of control in the season he was sacked, and Conte has been mouthing off the board for the whole of this season.
Yeap, Martial should stay and fight for his place.
It's not like Jose didn't play him, he gave him many games already, even against top team eg. Chelsea, etc. And the fact that after Sanchez joined, Mourinho planned on not getting new attacker this summer so all our attackers will guarantee to have plenty of games.
6 players for 3 or 4 positions every game in a long season, many games there for everyone and for Martial. Still not enough? Consider tactical decisions, form, injuries, fitness freshness, balance of team, etc.
M. United FC = Manchester United FC =/= Martial United FC
The Sanchez argument... yes Sanchez play many games, yet, ever since Alexis is here, are you sure Martial doesn't play?
From the sound of it, it's as if Sanchez played every single games never get dropped and Martial not playing at all or given very few games. In addition, it sounds like Martial never play at his favored position LM/LW anymore. Even when both are playing, it's as if Martial doesn't play there, nope never, he was shifted far and far away at RW and stay there...
Really? Should we rewatch all the games ever since Sanchez is here?
Martial not playing every game, so let's sack Mourinho...
It's not like Jose didn't play him, he gave him many games already, even against top team eg. Chelsea, etc. And the fact that after Sanchez joined, Mourinho planned on not getting new attacker this summer so all our attackers will guarantee to have plenty of games.
Lukaku, Sanchez, Mata, Lingard, Martial, Rashford.
6 players for 3 or 4 positions every game in a long season, many games there for everyone and for Martial. Still not enough? Consider tactical decisions, form, injuries, fitness freshness, balance of team, etc.
M. United FC = Manchester United FC =/= Martial United FC
It's true there is still weaknesses to his game, but hey he's already working on improving those - off the ball movements and defensive contributions (pressing, drop back, following runners, etc). Should continue to improve those plus adding necessary urgency to his game. Off the ball movements is still not good, but I can see he's trying already. I have no complaints of his defensive play, although very rare times he switch off. His consistency is actually not that bad for a young player, impressively consistent in goals contribution. His overall play need to be more consistent.
His attitude so far is not as bad as many people make it sounds. Team spirit is there. At times when he's not playing at the bench, he seems to be displeased.. which is a useful ego, showed that he care and wants to play. Use it as a drive to steal a regular spot.
Patience.
His attitude so far is not as bad as many people make it sounds. Team spirit is there. At times when he's not playing at the bench, he seems to be displeased.. which is a useful ego, showed that he care and wants to play. Use it as a drive to steal a regular spot.
Patience.
The Sanchez argument... yes Sanchez play many games, yet, ever since Alexis is here, are you sure Martial doesn't play?
From the sound of it, it's as if Sanchez played every single games never get dropped and Martial not playing at all or given very few games. In addition, it sounds like Martial never play at his favored position LM/LW anymore. Even when both are playing, it's as if Martial doesn't play there, nope never, he was shifted far and far away at RW and stay there...Really? Should we rewatch all the games ever since Sanchez is here?
Martial not playing every game, so let's sack Mourinho...
I was wondering if Jose had him in mind when he said we won't be spending too lavishly as we are banking on some internal development and want to give our younger players the full opportunity to fulfill their potential or if he was just hinting at Rashford, Pereira, McTominay, TFM and Tuanzebe.
Not buying heavily in defense would make sense as TFM and Tuanzebe deserve playing time now, he's obviously said we are investing in midfield with Fellaini and Carrick leaving and he's denied that he wants to add to the attack. May be Sanchez was bought after Griezmann confirmed he's going to Barcelona instead.
Not buying heavily in defense would make sense as TFM and Tuanzebe deserve playing time now, he's obviously said we are investing in midfield with Fellaini and Carrick leaving and he's denied that he wants to add to the attack. May be Sanchez was bought after Griezmann confirmed he's going to Barcelona instead.
Salah wasnt good enough back then ffs. Even chelsea's fan will be in huge surprise knowing what Salah has become today.
You talked like you already know what will happen 3 or 4 in the future. Mind i ask you who's gonna be POTY next 4 years?
Big clubs always concern about trophy and glory first and foremost.
If Wil Zaha or Obertan suddenly turned in Messi-esque performances would you blame Fergie for not seeing the potential?
What if Martial had already indicated before the January window, that he wasn’t signing a new contract?
That would be another reason why we went all out to get Sanchez.
That would be another reason why we went all out to get Sanchez.
Definitely not in the case of Obertan.
His behaviour suggests otherwise though, at least in my opinion. Social media posts, videos and stuff you see with and about him is all positive and you can tell he really enjoys being around this club and his teammates.
If a player has Messi potential SAF would see it no mattet how raw. Don't downplay the man's eye for youth talent. Jose seems to have a blindspot in that regard. Also I don't think SAF sold Zaha.
Fergie never worked with Zaha, he just signed him before he left.
If Zaha started playing like Messi I would definitely blame Fergie the guy who signed him, definitely not Moyes for not playing him and also not Van Gaal for selling him, the blame would have to be placed right at the door of Sir Alex!
Unfortunately I think he is a gonner.
No doubt in my mind that he will go on to be a quality player, just not here at United.
No doubt in my mind that he will go on to be a quality player, just not here at United.
People need to watch the Tottenham or City game to realize Sanchez is way above the payer Martial is. Sanchez sees the game in 360 degress , Martial sees it in 90 (always coming short for the pass) he has good technique but Martial is not flexible. Sanchez starts on the left but is very quick to read the game and sense opportunities which led to his quick thinking assists for Pogba (Pogba also mentioned Sanchez told him in training to always make a run into the box once he spots Sanchez with the ball and he would find him with a pass) as well as Smalling. Against Tottenham as soon as Pogba took possession of the ball on the left, Sanchez sprinted for goal and snuck in between the centerbacks in a position to receive the cross for his goal.
Not to mention Sanchez even with all his talent is a work-horse who needs no prodding. The man puts in such a crazy amount of work you suspect he's still running.
Thats the difference between experience and youngsters and Martial has a long way to go to understand the mental part of the game. It is the reason both Nani and Quaresma both better skilled players than Martial struggled to make an impact in the game commensurate with their on the ball skills.
Not to mention Sanchez even with all his talent is a work-horse who needs no prodding. The man puts in such a crazy amount of work you suspect he's still running.
Thats the difference between experience and youngsters and Martial has a long way to go to understand the mental part of the game. It is the reason both Nani and Quaresma both better skilled players than Martial struggled to make an impact in the game commensurate with their on the ball skills.