Bundesliga 2017/18

[RW2]

I wouldn't give a single feck if Bayern lost because Frankfurt was just better. They weren't, they didn't earn shit just because they were able to achieve a 2:1 or 2:2 (to fit your narrative) if rules would have been applied correctly. Frankfurt was a hard working side with low football abilities, fair enough, they have to try everything to win, so they're playing destructive football, which is fine. That's what smaller clubs and weaker sides have to do.

It was the third handball that game (no yellows given) and it's a clear handball after seeing slowmo, not so clear in normal speed, hence why I'm saying Zwayer's fault is not paying enough attention towards the video, which speaks for itself in both cases.

Edit: third handball by Boateng

Do you want to discuss the league game in Frankfurt where Bayern won 1-0 through a goal from Vidal. . . who should have been sent off after 5 minutes?
In the second half . . . Vidal committed a second bookable offence. . . . Ref, Harm Osmers, hadn't got the balls to give him a second yellow. A minute later Heynckes substituted him.

Nah. . . Thought not.

 

[schwalbe]

It's a clear pen

How can people be such hypocrites just because it's against Bayern? If it was the other way around, they'd by all be furious talking about the myth of the Bayern bonus, but now, it's all okay. Whatever fits your reality, I guess.

That's how people are, especially football fans.

 

[do.ob]

How can (your words, not mine) a 50:50 decision be completely correct? It's 50:50! Also, it wasn't 50:50, it's a blatant hand ball and has nothing to do with bavarian glasses on my side, as I'm not in said camp. Your examples are not comparable, since, again, they had no VAR and were in a completely different game and, I tell you what - I'm against these kind of wrong decisions as well in any case. It's just sad to see people arguing for Zwayer's shitty calls because it's against Bayern, ignorance at its finest. Beside, you're not talking about the 94th minute. It's completely gamechanging. We obviously won't know what would have happened afterwards, but it wouldn't have turned out like this. I wouldn't give a single feck if Bayern lost because Frankfurt was just better. They weren't, they didn't earn shit just because they were able to achieve a 2:1 or 2:2 (to fit your narrative) if rules would have been applied correctly. Frankfurt was a hard working side with low football abilities, fair enough, they have to try everything to win, so they're playing destructive football, which is fine. That's what smaller clubs and weaker sides have to do. But saying they deserved it just because they worked their asses off and because Zwayer - again, a ref who has comprehensibly taken money in exchange for wrong decisions - made two wrong calls after having slowmo, is something stupid to say.

The ball is deflected from another player at very close range. Boateng would have to have super human reactions to intentionally handle that ball. For me it was the correct call without a doubt, but even if you say it was a 50/50 call it is correct to let the ruling stand because the burden of certainty on VAR reversals is higher than that. I also adressed the 94th minute numerous times. I would have given the penalty personally, but I can also guess at the refs reasoning, not all contact in the box is automatically a penalty and it looks like JM actively goes down, so while I don't agree with the judgement I can see how someone can be hesitant to overturn the decision under such pressure.

Whether or not Frankfurt deserved their win is another question entirely and it's answer is so subjective that I think it's kind of pointless to discuss it here with you.

 

[RW2]

Did I mention that James Rodriguez, the cheat, tried to get Marius Wolf sent off in December also with a non contact which was overturned by VAR?

And who was dispossessed for the first Eintracht goal yesterday?

Yep. . . Hamesssss, or Hammy, Rodriguez.

Karma.

 

[hasanejaz88]

This has escalated quickly.

 

[fcbforever]

It doesn't matter what the ref did, the Frankfurt players still worked their @sses off. Even if it was set for the ref to help them(IF, huge IF), the players wouldn't know that, it's not their fault.

The Bayern players should've respected the opposition.

Having lived in .DE for quite a while I can certainly say that Bayern are quite a classless club at times, that's well known.

Can completely understand them. They were robbed, why should you stay? It was yet another sign that Zwayer is one of the worst referees in Germany and yet another example of how VAR is pointless.

 

[HerrLeinad]

Did I mention that James Rodriguez, the cheat, tried to get Marius Wolf sent off in December also with a non contact which was overturned by VAR?

And who was dispossessed for the first Eintracht goal yesterday?

Yep. . . Hamesssss, or Hammy, Rodriguez.

Karma.

So how about your "theory" that Bayern is always favored by refs? Does look kinda stupid after the game yesterday, doesn't it?

 

[RW2]

Can completely understand them. They were robbed, why should you stay? It was yet another sign that Zwayer is one of the worst referees in Germany and yet another example of how VAR is pointless.

They weren't robbed by Frankfurt and it wasn't Felix Zwayer receiving the trophy.

 

[RW2]

And in Zwayer's case, it's not an assumption that he's done game manipulations for money. It's proven fact.

Hang on there. Didn't Zwayer report the referee, Robert Hoyzer (who was subsequently found guilty of match fixing), he was acting as lineman for to the German authorities?
And had to suffer death threats from a Croatian gang as a result?

And here you are claiming he's a cheat because he happened to be involved in matches with the real cheat?

Pretty sure that's defamatory. . . Hope Zwayer's lawyers are not reading this site.

Also nasty on your part. Classless club with nasty supporters are Bayern.

 

[RW2]

He receveided money for wrong decisions; when everything fell apart and Hoyzer was basically already caught, he was the one who talked when shit got real. He was involved, he knew, he received money, he didn't report him to the DFB when everything went well for them and these facts alone should be enough for a referee to lose any credibility at all. He should have never refereed another football game in his life after these things came into public. But the DFB protected him: it took the journalists 10 years iirc to reveal his wrongdoings.
These statements are by no means punishable. What an incredibly laughable idea you came up with. The fact alone that you think Zwayer's lawyerS (as if he's such a big deal) would give a flying feck about any bullshit written on this forum shows how clueless you are. Also, why on fecking earth do you think my statements are punishable by any means? You seem to be extremely uninformed, considering you threatened me yourself.

Listen sunshine. . . . . You write defamatory stuff online . . . .You should expect consequences.

Where's your evidence that Zwayer received money for wrong decisions?
When was Zwayer convicted and subsequently found guilty of such a charge?

Zwayer must be one of the most rewarded "corrupt" match officials I've ever come across. He's been doing Bundesliga/UEFA (incl Champions League) matches for years, cup final yesterday. He's also off to the World Cup next month. . . As a VAR referee.

He's got friends in high places OR maybe he's not corrupt at all?

 

[Foxtrot]

I didn't follow the game but how did Bayern lose this?! They were massive favourites by far. Boggles my mind. Apparantely the ref took bribes?! Wtf this is such a serious allegation. In a nutshell, what happened?

 

[Foxtrot]

Chelsea shock United, Frankfurt shock Bayern.

Watch out Madrid

Chelsea and United was pretty much 50/50 or 45/55 its not a shock Chelsea beat United. United was just slight favourites and at one point, the line was favouring Chelsea. We also often tend to struggle against Chelsea. But yeah Bayern loss was a huge shock.

 

[belanglos]

zwayer received 300 euros from hoyzer in the game SV Wuppertal against Werder Bremen Amateure and zwayer knew a long time about hoyzer without telling anyone.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1376835-dfb.html - sorry it's in German :-/

btw - that was no handball from boateng.

 

[do.ob]

Yes, of course we can and we should have back then. If this current discussion is over, I strongly agree to look over this again. Overruling clear VAR slowmos is fraud and should face harsh consequences. It's just mind boggling that these refs make million dollar decisions based on a clear video slowmo and are still not able to get it right. And in Zwayer's case, it's not an assumption that he's done game manipulations for money. It's proven fact.

It's a clear pen and it's a clear handball. You, as many other people who argue in favor of Zwayer, simply like the outcome and therefor don't care about how everything led to Frankfurt winning.

No one is disputing that the ball touched Boateng's hand/arm, but that is only a foul if it happened intentionally, which wasn't the case here, so the ref let the goal stand. And I feel a bit sorry to bring this up, but as someone who supports a club with a convicted felon at the helm you surely must believe in the power of redemption? Why not extend the same good will to Zwayer. After all it's been 12 years.

 

[RW2]

In one of the slowmos from yesterday you could easily see how Boateng's arm moves actively towards the ball; his arm was waving unnaturally. While I agree that the distance between the ball/enemy to Boateng is relatively close, 2/3 from the relevant indications for a punishable hand ball according to the 17/18 rules are fulfilled. It's a handball and I think it shows some rule weaknesses that this is even some kind of debate. A shame considering the time there is to make hand ball rules more transparent and comprehensible. Lots of controverse decisions because of it.

Ah FFS. . . You're not still try to flog this dead horse over a handball that wasn't?

Doesn't matter about the penalty anyway. Lewandowski or Muller would have missed it because both are bottlers on big occasions. Just ask Real Madrid.

 

[fcbforever]

Since when is fjedn even a Bayern fan? Some people are just amazing hypocrites. From some I knew, some surprise me.

 

[do.ob]

I totally believe in the power of redemption, but it's not that complicated to see why a referee has to be held to higher standards than a partisan club official. The integrity of the ref interdependents strongly with the credibility of the whole sport. Hoeneß obviously is a very important person in german football business, but all things considered, as his wrongdoings were not related to football at all, I don't think it's comparable. Even a man like Hoeneß, as would Zwayer, has a right to claim his privay. If we'd be talking about, say, some drunk driving by Zwayer, I wouldn't give a shit, this wouldn't have anything to do with his integrity as a football referee. Even refs like Gräfe stepped out last year to talk about Zwayer's behaviour and how he shouldn't be refereeing high profile games anymore ("Wie kann so jemand bis in die Spitze der deutschen Top-Schiedsrichter kommen?"). He criticized Fandel and Krug (ref officials) directly and implied corruption between Zwayer and them.
In any case, this is a great example of tu quoque, hence nothing with substance. There's no connectivity between the two cases being discussed here, there's no logical causal context. No equality in injustice.
In one of the slowmos from yesterday you could easily see how Boateng's arm moves actively towards the ball; his arm was waving unnaturally. While I agree that the distance between the ball/enemy to Boateng is relatively close, 2/3 from the relevant indications for a punishable hand ball according to the 17/18 rules are fulfilled. It's a handball and I think it shows some rule weaknesses that this is even some kind of debate. A shame considering the time there is to make hand ball rules more transparent and comprehensible. Lots of controverse decisions because of it.

I agree that DFB should have dispersed a harsher punishment on Zwayer. But that was a mistake made by the DFB 12 years ago andas it stands he got his verdict, he served his time/ban. Now he made a mistake, the kind that others have made before him, and you bring up his 12 year old past to remove the benefit of the doubt completely. If you're equally harsh on Hoeneß he is still a white collar criminal, because a conviction and time served means nothing!? There's plenty of room for financial fraud and money laundering in football and after all Bayern have to pay taxes as well. So if you give one the benefit of the doubt and say he served his time he gets to start over, how can you deny it to the other guy?

And Boateng's arm was already in that motion before the ball went up into the air. Watching super slomos to try and judge whether or not some twitch could or could not have been an intentional attempt to steer the ball is precisely the kind of guess work that "only interfere in case of clear mistakes" is supposed to prevent.

 

[Acrobat7]

* This close to putting that RW guy on ignore *

 

[fcbforever]

* This close to putting that RW guy on ignore *

This forums equivalent of a drunk 50 something guy yelling insults at his TV

 

[HTG]

Sure he can do whatever he wants, doesn't make it less stupid though. This final, refereed by a ref who has demonstrably accepted money for wrong decisions before & covered up his colleagues dirty fraud business, is worth nothing. It was solely decided by Zwayer, not by Frankfurt. Even regarding the 1:2 by Frankfurt: the VAR and the use the ref himself makes out of the video can go as far back as the last ball winning act, in other words, back to Boateng's very obvious (third this game) hand balll. Discussing too much about the penalty isn't worth the time, it's a blatant fraud. Everybody saw it, it's as clear as it can get. Thing is, many people are happy now - that's why nothing will be done. The sport, the ref and Frankfurt lost a lot of credibility yesterday.

https://www.zeit.de/sport/2014-12/felix-zwayer-urteil-dfb-hoyzer-schiedsrichter

Nothing was done, nothing will be done. Sometimes german fans are being arrogant about Juventus, the seria A in general, betting scandals and what not. We're just better at covering it up and letting things just go by.

I don't disagree with you on Zwayer. He should be nowhere near this job. But that doesn't make our behaviour any less embarrassing. They should have stayed on the field, applauded their opponent like the grown men they are, and then they would have had all the time in the world, to whine and cry about the ref. But they didn't. They acted like spoiled and entitled brats, who couldn't cope with being on the receiving end of a shitshow like this for once.

To disregard Frankfurt's impressive performance isn't exactly classy, either.

 

[RW2]

The attacks on Zwayer from bitter Bayern fans are disgraceful.

Classless club, clueless fans.

No wonder they have so much money
Shower of tax dodgers
Expect everyone else to pay for them as well as roll over in a cup final.

 

[RW2]

Over the course of the 97+ minutes Bayern had four shots on target but, of course, its all Felix Zwayer's fault.

 

[fcbforever]

The attacks on Zwayer from bitter Bayern fans are disgraceful.

Classless club, clueless fans.

No wonder they have so much money
Shower of tax dodgers
Expect everyone else to pay for them as well as roll over in a cup final.

I hope your life is happier than it seems to be judging from your comments here.

 

[RW2]

I hope your life is happier than it seems to be judging from your comments here.

I've had a great weekend
Don't worry about that

Then I come on here and all I get are Bayern whingers
Blaming referees ... gimme a break .... I've seen enough Eintracht-Bayern matches to just laugh when I read of moaning Bayern fans regarding the referee.

They'll have the same season next season:
Hoeness fiddling the books, diving all over the gaff in penalty areas, getting all upset with referees who didn't pay parking tickets 15 years ago, and then collapsing to a Spanish team in the CL.

 

[fcbforever]

I've had a great weekend
Don't worry about that

Then I come on here and all I get are Bayern whingers
Blaming referees ... gimme a break .... I've seen enough Eintracht-Bayern matches to just laugh when I read of moaning Bayern fans regarding the referee.

They'll have the same season next season:
Hoeness fiddling the books, diving all over the gaff in penalty areas, getting all upset with referees who didn't pay parking tickets 15 years ago, and then collapsing to a Spanish team in the CL.

Don’t talk to your TV so much, it’s not good for you.

 

[Abizzz]

For the record i'm not a Bayern fan... I criticized Zwayer strongly and stand by that criticism, the same goes for my criticism towards the DfB and their referees. The fact that i'm happy to see Eintracht lift the cup doesn't change anything about Zwayer's dismal performance or his questionable history. He shouldn't be reffing any pro's at all if you ask me, let alone important games.

Actually i'm kind of glad it finally hit Bayern once, maybe something will change about it now. (I'm a Karlsruhe SC fan next to following United, we've been royally fecked by the DfB twice in the past decade, costing us the promotion to the Bundesliga in 2015 and the relegation from the 2nd into the third in 2012. Also when a game was proven to be fixed against us in 2004 the DfB proclaimed that the referee (who was paid to have the other team win) did not influence the game ).


Sorry for bumping this thread again, it's become a shitshow of a thread and i'm aware that it wont be of any interest to many of you... So i'll stop posting here for a bit.

 

[RW2]

For the record i'm not a Bayern fan... I criticized Zwayer strongly and stand by that criticism, the same goes for my criticism towards the DfB and their referees. The fact that i'm happy to see Eintracht lift the cup doesn't change anything about Zwayer's dismal performance or his questionable history. He shouldn't be reffing any pro's at all if you ask me, let alone important games.

Actually i'm kind of glad it finally hit Bayern once, maybe something will change about it now. (I'm a Karlsruhe SC fan next to following United, we've been royally fecked by the DfB twice in the past decade, costing us the promotion to the Bundesliga in 2015 and the relegation from the 2nd into the third in 2012. Also when a game was proven to be fixed against us in 2004 the DfB proclaimed that the referee (who was paid to have the other team win) did not influence the game ).


Sorry for bumping this thread again, it's become a shitshow of a thread and i'm aware that it wont be of any interest to many of you... So i'll stop posting here for a bit.

Jeez . . . This thread is turning into a whingefest for fans who hold grievances from a previous life against referees regarding the teams they support.

Lots of WUMMING going on.

 

[RW2]

I wish you were WUMMING, but sadly you are probably for real

I've no time for WUMMERS.

Bayern fans should accept their defeat with dignity and not insult their opposition by walking off like spoilt brats after defeat.
I believe Bayern are the first team ever to do this.

 

[Blackwidow]

I've no time for WUMMERS.

Bayern fans should accept their defeat with dignity and not insult their opposition by walking off like spoilt brats after defeat.
I believe Bayern are the first team ever to do this.

I just see a bad winner...

I watched the Cup final against Stuttgart from 2013 that I still have on my disk to look how it was in 2013. The Stuttgart players did not have any chance to escape as their was a line of marshalls between them and the escape path into the catacombs. Else I do not think they would have stayed either. If that escape route would not have been open on Saturday I am pretty sure the Bayern players would have followed everybody back on the pitch so that every Non-Bayern-fan still could wallow in pictures of their sad faces instead of celebrating with the winners. I bet there would not be more than a line in a newspaper if the Stuttgart players would have left into the catacombs in 2013. Or if the Frankfurt players would have left in case Bayern would have gotten that penalty and would have won in extratime. I do not even think it matters for the Frankfurt players.

Just shows that for a lot of people Bayern losing is more important than their own wins... As long as it is like this nobody needs to wonder why the situation in the Bundesliga is like it is.

 

[Kasper]

I just see a bad winner...

I watched the Cup final against Stuttgart from 2013 that I still have on my disk to look how it was in 2013. The Stuttgart players did not have any chance to escape as their was a line of marshalls between them and the escape path into the catacombs. Else I do not think they would have stayed either. If that escape route would not have been open on Saturday I am pretty sure the Bayern players would have followed everybody back on the pitch so that every Non-Bayern-fan still could wallow in pictures of their sad faces instead of celebrating with the winners. I bet there would not be more than a line in a newspaper if the Stuttgart players would have left into the catacombs in 2013. Or if the Frankfurt players would have left in case Bayern would have gotten that penalty and would have won in extratime. I do not even think it matters for the Frankfurt players.

Just shows that for a lot of people Bayern losing is more important than their own wins... As long as it is like this nobody needs to wonder why the situation in the Bundesliga is like it is.

Yeah, every final loser so far has just coincidentally been forced to stay, caged by security forces, while Bayerns Players we're basically goaded to leave the pitch.

Other than trolling & provoking, you didn't say anything which has any value, so I guess that really shows how many arguments can be made for your view.

Yeah, you're "Lolz you probably never set a foot on a pitch" argument really deserved a proper answer, I apologise!

 

[Kasper]

Well, if that's your reasoning behind your provocative statement, it's safe to say you willingly chose ignorance, considering I've posted enough arguments to prove my point.
Btw I have no problems with incorrect grammar/ortography as we're all most likely not native speakers, but why can't so many people distinguish between your and you're? And were and we're? I don't want to be a picky idiot, so I hope this doesn't come as some kind of wumming or anything, but honestly, I just don't understand that inability.

It's not inability it's the often annoying autocorrect function of phones:

 

[do.ob]

Zwayer gave a statement via Kicker:

"A corner kick was my initial ruling, despite seeing that Martinez went down. It wasn't clear to me why though, so I consulted Bastian Dankert the VAR. He told me that there was contact and I should take a look at it myself."
"I saw the contact, but in my view it wasn't an intensive contact, because Martinez was able to put that feet stable on the ground without a change in motion/direction, before his other leg went up in front of him and he fell down."

Regarding whether or not Boateng's kick was a punishable offence:
"Not for me, because while watching the video I couldn't see a contact that was cause for Martinez's fall. Contact and effect didn't add up to me. In the video I didn't see a contact that convinced me to reverse my initial perception and ruling. Even two days later I still stand by that decision".

He also says that people shouldn't automatically expect a reversal just because a referee takes a look at the video and that contact is not automatically an offence.

They also have a statement from referee coordinator Lutz Michael Fröhlich:
"We can understand the reasoning of Zwayer, but at the same time we in the comission have deep thoughts about whether or not such decisions are comprehensible to the public, because their opinion leans heavily towards a penalty."

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/dfbpokal/startseite/724328/artikel_zwayer-ich-stehe-zu-meiner-entscheidung.html

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Over the course of the 97+ minutes Bayern had four shots on target but, of course, its all Felix Zwayer's fault.

Love this stupid argumentation that always comes up. We can't criticise the ref if the team didn't play well enough to win anyway. There is no relation or correlation between the twot whatsoever. It wouldn't matter if Bayern had their worst performance with zero shots on target. It's still the ref's fault this didn't go to extra time. I'm saying that not possibly being able to dislike Bayern more. Yet I can't enjoy their loss because of that decision.

 

[do.ob]

load of crap excuses to be honest, it would've been much better if he just admitted that he failed to make the right decision

I'd call it an explanation rather than an excuse.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Decent explanation. Way to many players fall down at the slightest contact and expect a penalty, good to see referees going back and considering the amount of contact.

 

[Kasper]

Logical explanation and with all those divers around, it's good to have a referee standing up for the integrity of the game!

 

[Balu]

Zwayer as a symbol for the integrity of the game. Who would have thought that?

 

[Abizzz]

How is Martinez falling relevant? He was kicked, and kicking people like that is clearly a foul whether they fall or not...
Appreciate the explanation though, at least it will keep people from claiming that having a shot from the edge of a crowded penalty box is somehow an advantage over a penalty kick.

 

[Acrobat7]

Even Boateng (Frankfurt version) admitted that he kicked Martinez and it should have been a pen. Dunno why there still is an argument about it.
Zwayer fecked up.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Love this stupid argumentation that always comes up. We can't criticise the ref if the team didn't play well enough to win anyway. There is no relation or correlation between the twot whatsoever. It wouldn't matter if Bayern had their worst performance with zero shots on target. It's still the ref's fault this didn't go to extra time. I'm saying that not possibly being able to dislike Bayern more. Yet I can't enjoy their loss because of that decision.

Bayern is deflecting the blame for the loss on the ref, it is like 95% of the post-match conversation is only about him. How about talking about the shit performance by James, at fault for the first goal?

Or why the focus on a supposed handball 80m away from goal instead of the two defenders, who had the advantage in numbers and still looked like fools out there. And that was not Neymar or Dembele, that was the mighty Ante Rebic of 8th placed Frankfurt.

I am not saying it was not a horrible performance by the ref, it was. That should be no excuse though for a really bad Bayern performance in a „big“ match against a lowly rated opponent.