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Chairman Woodie

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I accept the point that yourself and @2cents have made about the Arabs not rejecting the terms of the partition but rather rejected any partition in principle. What I don't understand is your apparent insistence that Arab leaders should be blamed for a position which remained unchanged for decades and which, in the opinion of @2cents, was "understandable". For what it's worth, I also view the Zionist desire for a state and safe haven from European/Russian anti-semitism to be completely understandable. But ultimately, in order to realise this desire they became colonisers, backed up by a superpower, and therefore the aggressors.
My insistence on blaming Palestinian leaders is because of their apparent disinterest in improving the lives of the Palestinian people. It was opposition to Zionism that gave rise to Palestinian nationalism, not an aspiration for statehood. As Daniel Pipes notes:

"Palestinian nationalism originated in Zionism; were it not for the existence of another people who saw British Palestine as their national home, Sunni Arabs would have continued to view this area as a province of Greater Syria. Zionism turned Palestine into something worthy in itself. If not for Jewish aspirations, Sunni Arab attitudes toward Palestine would no doubt have resembled those toward the territory of Transjordan, an indifference only slowly eroded by many years of governmental effort." (Greater Syria, The History of an Ambition, pp. 68-69)
http://www.danielpipes.org/8025/the-year-the-arabs-discovered-palestine

I think Palestinian rejection of both the Peel Commission and the 1947 Partition Plan strengthen the point above.
Would you lay blame at the feet of Mandela had his rejection of Botha's offer of release in 1985 on the condition that he renounce violence not ultimately led to the end of apartheid? Would you blame him for the ANC's initial decision to resort to violence? Whatever decision the colonised party makes, they are still the victim of colonial aggression.

You also referred to more recent "opportunities for statehood". Are you talking about the great peacemaker Rabin's vision of "less than a state"? Or the generous offer at Camp David which Israeli Foreign Minister and negotiator Shlomo Ben Ami said he would have rejected as well? Or Annapolis which the US team recommended that Abbas not accept? The point is that there is no glaring missed opportunity. Simply decisions which may or may not have worked in the colonised party's favour.

So I say again. Israel should apologise. Not in 100 or 200 years when the Palestinians are all gone or living like Native Americans on their little reservations, but now. It may seem silly to some, but it could be a profound step towards mutual understanding and a lasting peace.
I don't view this conflict through the prism of post-colonialism. Post-colonialism automatically portrays Israel as the dominant party ("the aggressor") and the Palestinians as perennially powerless victims of historic injustice. This analysis neglects history. One, the shortcomings of Arab leaders, and; two, the willingness of Israel to compromise.

The underlined comes across as trying to minimise the significance of, and justify, Palestinian rejectionism. And what makes you think the Palestinians might disappear in 100 to 200 years?
 
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Nikhil

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I understand your point.

I think there is a failure in the Arab world to take a self-critical look at their values. I am not saying that individual Arabs are necessarily an exact copy of their culture. But there is a tendancy to demonstrate an overall narrative of victimisation and blaming others. If it's not blaming Israel, the United States, the British, or the West, it manifests itself in the form of conspiracy theories. It's like there is an aversion to self-reflection and criticism. Although living in closed regimes would also be a factor.

In contrast, the Israelis [can] the complete opposite. At times taking their self-reflection and self-directed criticism too far.
I agree with you 100%. Obviously, we can't generalise that everyone in the ME is like this. I have lived there for 20 years and have meet a few broad minded people. But overall, society there has a massive victimisation. There is a huge aversion to self reflection and critical thinking. Why bother with all that when you can easily blame the West, Israel, Iran? It absolves themselves from blame. Their leaders and politicians love it.
 

Super Hans

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My insistence on blaming Palestinian leaders is because of their apparent disinterest in improving the lives of the Palestinian people.
1. That's your opinion, far from proven fact.
2. For the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Is that any different to pretty much every leader past and present?

As Daniel Pipes notes:
Daniel Pipes is hardly a neutral commentator. In any case, I think it's nonsense. The people living in Palestine, working the land for centuries, had a deep connection to it. Many of them subsistence farmers who knew no other way of life. To imply that Palestinian Nationalism was solely to spite Zionism is completely false. Palestinians were left with no choice in the wake of Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration to abandon the idea of pan-Arab nationalism and form their own national movement, particularly given the Zionists (and the British) were not interested in allowing the arabs to self-determine.
I think Palestinian rejection of both the Peel Commission and the 1947 Partition Plan strengthen the point above.
I don't remotely see how it does. And again, their rejection was "understandable".
I don't view this conflict through the prism of post-colonialism. Post-colonialism automatically portrays Israel as the dominant party ("the aggressor") and the Palestinians as perennially powerless victims of historic injustice. This analysis neglects history. One, the shortcomings of Arab leaders, and; two, the willingness of Israel to compromise.
The zionists themselves called it colonialism. I realise the term doesn't suit your argument, but we need to call things by their proper names. Clearly the zionists were the dominant party. They had their "iron wall". They had lots of money and influence. Interestingly, some zionists even exploited the anti-semitic image of "world dominating Jews" (Tom Segev, One Palestine Complete) to get their way.

Given that the rejection of partition was "understandable", could you give a few specific examples of "Palestinian rejectionism" which was so blatant as to warrant your position? Israeli rejectionism has been near constant its entire history. Only when compelled to compromise through force or diplomatic pressure has Israel ever softened its stance. And yet it continues to reject the broad consensus of the international community, as it has done for over 40 years. That's rejectionism.

And what makes you think the Palestinians might disappear in 100 to 200 years?
Well that would be the ideal scenario for many Israeli jews. 48% polled as desiring the expulsion of Arabs from Israel (without distinction between Israeli arab citizens or Palestinians in the occupied territories). https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/ Israel certainly has the strength to carry it out, so why not? All they need is another major war and they could do it again easily. I seem to remember Ben-Gurion being quoted to the effect that the rules are different during war time, referring to the freedom to expel arabs.

Edit: Here is a Ben Gurion quote to that effect although I'm pretty sure I was thinking of a different one:

“Regarding the Galilee, Mr. [Moshe] Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didn’t offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee.” (From a protocol of the Government of Israel, translated from Hebrew by Israel Shahak)

Further edit: "Ben-Gurion…understood that war changed everything; a different set of “rules” had come to apply. Land could and would be conquered and retained; there would be demographic changes. This approach emerged explicitly in Ben Gurion’s address at the meeting of the Mapai Council on 7 February: Western Jerusalem’s Arab districts had been evacuated and a similar permanent demographic change would be expected in much of the country as the war spread." (Benny Morris, 1948, pp. 39–40)
 
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Kaos

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Im just curious as to what Israel’s staunchest supporters here see as the ideal solution to dealing with the Palestinians. Fearless seems to think they have no entitlement to the land and should all be forcefully ‘deported’ to Jordan, but realistically what do the rest of you expect as being reasonable?
 

Fearless

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Im just curious as to what Israel’s staunchest supporters here see as the ideal solution to dealing with the Palestinians. Fearless seems to think they have no entitlement to the land and should all be forcefully ‘deported’ to Jordan, but realistically what do the rest of you expect as being reasonable?
This...

 

2cents

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Im just curious as to what Israel’s staunchest supporters here see as the ideal solution to dealing with the Palestinians. Fearless seems to think they have no entitlement to the land and should all be forcefully ‘deported’ to Jordan, but realistically what do the rest of you expect as being reasonable?
It's a tough question to answer, as the "ideal solution" and thinking "realistically" produce different visions. As a non-Israeli, ideally I'd love to see the two peoples living peacefully together in one democratic, binational/non-national state. But then I'd love to see that applied to the entire region. In any case, I don't think there's anything the Israelis can do to bring that about on their own as there's no indication significant numbers on either side want it.

So thinking realistically, if I was Israeli, my basic thinking would be to try and improve the lives of Palestinians as much as possible, and to promote a greater sense of empathy for their plight among Israelis, without thinking in terms of any kind of comprehensive peace plan for the time being, and without compromising any reasonable security concerns. In the West Bank I'd advocate for a complete halt to all settlement building and expansion, the dismantlement of all isolated and minor settlements, while offering incentives for those in some of the bigger settlements such as Ariel to relocate. I'd advocate doing whatever possible to minimize checkpoints and permit restrictions. I wouldn't advocate for a unilateral military withdrawal for fear of Hamas taking over the West Bank. Same applies to East Jerusalem.

With Gaza, I'd advocate for a serious consideration of Hamas's truce proposal(s) and use the current improved relations with the Saudis and Qatar to develop a long-term economic plan which would include an easing of all petty restrictions on imports and movement in and out, and the development of Gaza's infrastructure.

In general, I would try to promote a greater recognition among Israelis of Palestinian/Arab history and ties to the land, and an honest appraisal of the origins of the conflict, without linking it to any long-term plans until similar sentiments are reciprocated from the Palestinians. However I doubt there's much the Israelis can do to convince the Palestinians of their own ties to and rights in the land, such a shift may have to come with a more general transformation of the region's political culture.

I'd advocate for all this without the expectation that it would lead to peace, while making clear that if/when the Palestinians are ready for some serious discussions, they'll have a serious partner sitting opposite.
 
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Raoul

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That is not at all what I meant. I don't know if you've been following Indian news lately, but there's been a huge dip in industrial production and massive agrarian distress the past couple of years. Combine that with the lack of basic necessities in large parts of the country, you come to the realisation of the amount of work that is still to be done. Inspite of it all, look at the mudslinging that politicians indulge in before any state polls, it is pure garbage. It is all meant to distract people and protect elected officials from their performance coming under scrutiny.

It might be a surprise to you mate, but South Asia doesn't mean just Muslims. No need for searching for any sectarian meaning in what genuinely was an honest post from me about the similarities in how leaders in the ME and South Asia think.
Are you saying they would be in a better position if they changed political leadership ?
 

Synco

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Im just curious as to what Israel’s staunchest supporters here see as the ideal solution to dealing with the Palestinians. Fearless seems to think they have no entitlement to the land and should all be forcefully ‘deported’ to Jordan, but realistically what do the rest of you expect as being reasonable?
I wrote this last year in a discussion about the so-called one state solution; the basic situation hasn't changed, of course:
(...) the only true resolution I can imagine would be a somewhat amicable two-state solution, which seems impossible for the foreseeable future.
I have no idea what that could mean in terms of feasible arrangements on Jerusalem, the Golan, the larger settlement blocs; if there's a will there's a way, I hope.

But the crux is the second part: imo, any realistic prospect for this is thoroughly gone since the Oslo process resulted in the Second Intifada instead of a peace deal. Whether it was doomed from the start or not I can't say. So the practical and much more bleak question nowadays is what (not) to do in the absence of a realistic prospect of that kind.
 

Nikhil

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Are you saying they would be in a better position if they changed political leadership ?
They should change their mentality. Stop with the victimisation and look inwards. Be progressive and stop blaming others and getting manipulated by their "leaders". Be a force for good and contribute towards peace and progress in the region and in the world at large.
 

MJJ

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They should change their mentality. Stop with the victimisation and look inwards. Be progressive and stop blaming others and getting manipulated by their "leaders". Be a force for good and contribute towards peace and progress in the region and in the world at large.
The people getting killed should stop with the victimisation, the people who have nothing to eat, whose exports are being blocked, who have little to none electricity should try and be a force for good and contribute towards peace and progress in the world.

:lol: ffs how did your brain come up with that solution?
 

Raoul

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They should change their mentality. Stop with the victimisation and look inwards. Be progressive and stop blaming others and getting manipulated by their "leaders". Be a force for good and contribute towards peace and progress in the region and in the world at large.
Do you think this is feasible given their current predicament ?
 

Nikhil

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Do you think this is feasible given their current predicament ?
It is the only way. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, Gaza promptly votes for Hamas to form the civilian government. They kicked Fatah out in a conflict the minute they could. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Many countries even designate it to be a gang of terrorists.

The US and Israel will pursue negotiations with Fatah. They will never do so with Hamas. That is very clear. If Gazans continue to support and fight for and help Hamas, Gaza will continue to be in the state it is in, with the only help coming from Qatar and Turkey.
 

RedTiger

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It is the only way. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, Gaza promptly votes for Hamas to form the civilian government. They kicked Fatah out in a conflict the minute they could. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Many countries even designate it to be a gang of terrorists.

The US and Israel will pursue negotiations with Fatah. They will never do so with Hamas. That is very clear. If Gazans continue to support and fight for and help Hamas, Gaza will continue to be in the state it is in, with the only help coming from Qatar and Turkey.
The Israeli's and Americans have had close to 30 years to negotiate with Fatah before Hamas was even a speck in Sheikh Ahmed Yassin's eye. Why would the outcome be any different now?
 

Chairman Woodie

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1. That's your opinion, far from proven fact.
It’s an opinion grounded in history.

In short, as the socio-economic conditions in Palestine improved because of Jewish immigration the political situation deteriorated. This was because of Haj Amin al-Husseini, an ardent proponent of
Greater Syria, a rabid anti-Semite, and anti-Zionist. When the British and the French decided to split Palestine from Syria in April 1920, dashing hopes of Syrian unity, it was Husseini who fermented the riots among local Arabs. The Haycroft Commission of Inquiry found Arab enmity stemmed from the fear of Jewish self-determination.

In contrast, prior to the rise in popularity of pan-Syrianism, the Arabs of Palestine were content as Ottoman subjects. Not even the repressive Ottoman measures of 1915 turned the local population against the Ottoman suzerain. Their immediate loyalties were parochial. The locals exhibited no interest in the Arab National Movement. It took one full year before local opposition emerged to the
Balfour Declaration, and that was a group of Arab dignitaries and nationalists who supported pan-Syrianism – not Palestinian nationalism.

In short the radicalisation of Palestinian Arab public opinion was because of al-Husseini. This gained momentum in the 1930s, manifesting itself through encouraging violence, connections to the National Socialist Party in Germany, and rejection of Partition (Peel Commission). History repeated itself in 1947, when British officials travelled to Cairo to see whether al-Husseini would compromise on Partition. Again the answer was ‘No!’. His was a zero sum approach to Jewish national or collective rights.

In summary, al-Husseini allowed his vehement hatred of Jews and opposition to Jewish self-determination to take priority over the interests of the Palestinian Arabs.

Hence I find it difficult to agree that rejection of either partition proposals was understandable when the Palestinian Arabs: one, were content under Ottoman Rule; two, supported unity between Palestine and Syria under Faisal, and; three, did not seek statehood originally. The birth of Palestinian nationalism was a calculated decision to oppose Zionism, not an aspiration for statehood.


Daniel Pipes is hardly a neutral commentator.
Who qualifies as a neutral commentator, and how is it assessed?

In any case, I think it's nonsense. The people living in Palestine, working the land for centuries, had a deep connection to it. Many of them subsistence farmers who knew no other way of life. To imply that Palestinian Nationalism was solely to spite Zionism is completely false. Palestinians were left with no choice in the wake of Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration to abandon the idea of pan-Arab nationalism and form their own national movement, particularly given the Zionists (and the British) were not interested in allowing the arabs to self-determine.
The Arabs of Palestine had a number of reasons for supporting pan-Syrianism. One of those reasons was unity between Palestine and Syria under Faisal ending the prospect of Jewish self-determination. But in April 1920 the British and French decided to split Palestine from Syria, dashing any hopes of unity and keeping Zionist aspirations alive. On the same month, al-Husseini, a proponent of Greater Syria, and anti-Zionist, incited riots among local Arabs in Palestine in opposition to Zionism. Eight months later, at the Third Palestinian Congress, Palestinian nationalism was born. This birth of Palestinian nationalism at this point was no coincidence because it provided a means of opposing Zionism. That opposition manifested itself in the form of rejecting compromises and inciting violence, led by none other than al-Husseini.

I don't remotely see how it does. And again, their rejection was "understandable".
Answered in the above.

The zionists themselves called it colonialism. I realise the term doesn't suit your argument, but we need to call things by their proper names. Clearly the zionists were the dominant party. They had their "iron wall". They had lots of money and influence. Interestingly, some zionists even exploited the anti-semitic image of "world dominating Jews" (Tom Segev, One Palestine Complete) to get their way.

Given that the rejection of partition was "understandable", could you give a few specific examples of "Palestinian rejectionism" which was so blatant as to warrant your position? Israeli rejectionism has been near constant its entire history. Only when compelled to compromise through force or diplomatic pressure has Israel ever softened its stance. And yet it continues to reject the broad consensus of the international community, as it has done for over 40 years. That's rejectionism.


Well that would be the ideal scenario for many Israeli jews. 48% polled as desiring the expulsion of Arabs from Israel (without distinction between Israeli arab citizens or Palestinians in the occupied territories). https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/ Israel certainly has the strength to carry it out, so why not? All they need is another major war and they could do it again easily. I seem to remember Ben-Gurion being quoted to the effect that the rules are different during war time, referring to the freedom to expel arabs.

Edit: Here is a Ben Gurion quote to that effect although I'm pretty sure I was thinking of a different one:

“Regarding the Galilee, Mr. [Moshe] Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didn’t offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee.” (From a protocol of the Government of Israel, translated from Hebrew by Israel Shahak)

Further edit: "Ben-Gurion…understood that war changed everything; a different set of “rules” had come to apply. Land could and would be conquered and retained; there would be demographic changes. This approach emerged explicitly in Ben Gurion’s address at the meeting of the Mapai Council on 7 February: Western Jerusalem’s Arab districts had been evacuated and a similar permanent demographic change would be expected in much of the country as the war spread." (Benny Morris, 1948, pp. 39–40)
I think the increasingly distant two-state solution more likely than that scenario.
 

Chairman Woodie

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And that's exactly where we are today.
But why engage in statehood and nation building when they can use their hapless people to gain sympathy and enrich themselves from the proceeds of their self-inflicted plight with global taxpayer's money?
 

berbatrick

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But why engage in statehood and nation building when they can use their hapless people to gain sympathy and enrich themselves from the proceeds of their self-inflicted plight with global taxpayer's money?
They are living without clean water, functional drains, essential medicines and the ability to meet friends and family. Enriched!
 

berbatrick

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My criticism was directed at the Palestinian leadership, not the people.
Fair enough.


Yeah but they have attack tunnels at £1M each, and the Palestinian leaders are billionaires thanks to the $16.3 Billion funnelled to them.
Many (overwhelming majority, AFAIK) tunnels were built for smuggling the very vital supplies I listed and have been jointly destroyed by Egypt and Israel.
 

Chairman Woodie

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Many (overwhelming majority, AFAIK) tunnels were built for smuggling the very vital supplies I listed and have been jointly destroyed by Egypt and Israel.
Hamas don't need tunnels to smuggle vital supplies into Gaza. That is one of the purposes of the crossings. Neither would Hamas need to smuggle in vital supplies if they accepted aid when it is offered.

 

thegregster

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In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate for Palestine. Like all League of Nations Mandates, this mandate derived from article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant, which called for the self-determination of former Ottoman Empire colonies after a transitory period administered by a world power.[14] The Palestine Mandate recognized the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and required that the mandatory government "facilitate Jewish immigration" while at the same time "ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced".[15]

Disagreements over Jewish immigration as well as incitement by Haj Amin Al-Husseini led to an outbreak of Arab-Jewish violence in the Palestine Riots of 1920. Violence erupted again the following year during the Jaffa Riots. In response to these riots, Britain established the Haycraft Commission of Inquiry. The British Mandatory authorities put forward proposals for setting up an elected legislative council in Palestine. In 1924 the issue was raised at a conference held by Ahdut Ha'avodah at Ein Harod. Shlomo Kaplansky, a veteran leader of Poalei Zion, argued that a Parliament, even with an Arab majority, was the way forward. David Ben-Gurion, the emerging leader of the Yishuv, succeeded in getting Kaplansky's ideas rejected.[16]
The Palestinian people were denied free elections by Ben-Gurion and the British.
 

berbatrick

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Hamas don't need tunnels to smuggle vital supplies into Gaza. That is one of the purposes of the crossings. Neither would Hamas need to smuggle in vital supplies if they accepted aid when it is offered.

Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse" while avoiding a humanitarian crisis, according to U.S. diplomatic cables published by a Norwegian daily on Wednesday.

Three cables cited by the Aftenposten newspaper, which has said it has all 250,000 U.S. cables leaked to WikiLeaks, showed that Israel kept the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv briefed on its internationally criticized blockade of the Gaza Strip.

The territory, home to 1.3 million Palestinians, is run by the Islamist Hamas group, which is shunned by the West over its refusal to recognize Israel, renounce violence or accept existing interim Israeli-Palestinian peace deals.

"As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to (U.S. embassy economic officers) on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge," one of the cables read.

Israel wanted the coastal territory's economy "functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis", according to the Nov. 3, 2008 cable.
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5103917

For the last 25 years, Israel has imposed increasingly strict restrictions on travel to and from the Gaza Strip. Those restrictions affect nearly every aspect of life in Gaza, including the ability of human rights workers to document violations of human rights and international humanitarian law (IHL) and to advocate for their remediation. While Israel makes exceptions to its travel ban for what it calls humanitarian reasons, as a rule, it does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades, rendering Palestinians in Gaza dependent on foreign ports to travel abroad. It also severely restricts all travel between Gaza and the West Bank, recognized as a single territorial unit, even when the transit does not take place via Israeli territory.

Egypt has kept its border crossing with Gaza, Rafah crossing, mostly closed since 2013, opening it every several weeks to allow passage for a few thousand people. It has refused permission for foreign human rights workers to enter Gaza via the Rafah crossing in recent years and has restricted the ability of Palestinian human rights workers to cross. In justifying its restrictions on access via Rafah, Egypt says that Israel, as the occupying power, is responsible for Gaza, and it also cites the security situation in the area of Egypt's Sinai Peninsula bordering Gaza, where an affiliate of the Islamic State has engaged in violent confrontations with the Egyptian military since 2013, killing hundreds. But Egypt began greatly restricting transit through Rafah before the security situation in the Sinai deteriorated and shortly after the military's July 2013 removal of former President Mohamed Morsy, whom the military accused of receiving support from Hamas. While Egypt does not owe obligations to Palestinians under the law of occupation and can, with some important limitations, decide whom to allow to enter its territory, its actions are exacerbating the impact of Israel’s travel restrictions on residents of Gaza.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/04/...rictions-access-and-gaza-human-rights-workers

The Palestinian Ministry of Health said that the Israeli occupation authorities prevented a government medical delegation from entering the Gaza Strip.

In a statement on Sunday that the occupation authorities refused to issue the necessary permits for members of the medical delegation formed by the Minister of Health d. Jawad Awad to assist medical personnel in the Gaza Strip.
http://english.pnn.ps/2018/05/13/israel-blocks-medical-delegation-from-entering-gaza/

Israel will cut electricity supplies to the Gaza Strip after an agreement with the Palestinian Authority to put pressure on Hamas. The decision is expected to shorten the daily average of four hours of power Gaza's two million residents receive by 45 minutes, Israel's security cabinet said.

Human rights groups have warned of a humanitarian crisis as the electricity shortages could leave schools, hospitals and businesses unable to operate fully. Clean water supplies have begun to dwindle as desalination plants are left without power.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ian-authority-hamas-settlements-a7787916.html

LONDON (Thomson Reuters Foundation) - Israel’s blockade of building materials for Gaza has created one of the highest levels of unemployment in the world and made it impossible for the small coastal enclave to recover from the war a year ago, aid agencies said on Wednesday.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gaza-recovery-aid-idUSKCN0PI1XJ20150708
 

Synco

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Many (overwhelming majority, AFAIK) tunnels were built for smuggling the very vital supplies I listed and have been jointly destroyed by Egypt and Israel.
But for all I know also weapons, and materials for building military infrastructure, attack tunnels and rockets to be fired at the Israeli population. Dual-use, so to say.

There's no denying the blockade's severe impact on living conditions in Gaza. But it also seriously hampers Hamas' ability to attack Israel, which they would, should conditions allow it. So as for your rejection of the claim there's no need for any smuggling of vital supplies, I'm sure you're right. But I'm also sure you aren't right when portraying these tunnels as merely civilian enterprises.

Generally speaking, there's a deep-seated habit to only ever talk about the convenient parts of that ugly ME reality in order to create false unambiguity. This turns any meaningful complaint into propaganda, no matter the intention (can be seen with certain pro-Israel posts as well).
 

Super Hans

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It is the only way. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, Gaza promptly votes for Hamas to form the civilian government. They kicked Fatah out in a conflict the minute they could. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Many countries even designate it to be a gang of terrorists.

The US and Israel will pursue negotiations with Fatah. They will never do so with Hamas. That is very clear. If Gazans continue to support and fight for and help Hamas, Gaza will continue to be in the state it is in, with the only help coming from Qatar and Turkey.
1. What was Israel’s motivation for withdrawing from Gaza?

2. It was not just Gaza that elected Hamas. This was the Palestinian parliamentary elections.

3. They only kicked out Fatah AFTER Fatah colluded with the US and Israel to execute a coup against Hamas, which Hamas foiled.

4. Out of the world’s 190-odd countries, how many do you think consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation? The ANC was a designated terrorist organisation. So was the IRA and many others that were worthy enough to be negotiated with. The term “terrorist organisation” is lazy and simplistic, used to dehumanize Hamas. Hamas is a resistance group, born of occupation that used abhorrent tactics in the past, far less so today. It is well-understood that Hamas is capable of evolving, and experts agree that the organisation has evolved since it became a serious political player. The tactic of collectively punishing Gazans in order to defeat Hamas is not only illegal and immoral, Israel itself acknowledges that it has failed.

Hamas has been dropping hints for years that it is ready to negotiate peace. That avenue has to be pursued rather than periodically obliterating a captive population living in a territory which the UN has said is now uninhabitable.
 

fishfingers15

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1. What was Israel’s motivation for withdrawing from Gaza?

2. It was not just Gaza that elected Hamas. This was the Palestinian parliamentary elections.

3. They only kicked out Fatah AFTER Fatah colluded with the US and Israel to execute a coup against Hamas, which Hamas foiled.

4. Out of the world’s 190-odd countries, how many do you think consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation? The ANC was a designated terrorist organisation. So was the IRA and many others that were worthy enough to be negotiated with. The term “terrorist organisation” is lazy and simplistic, used to dehumanize Hamas. Hamas is a resistance group, born of occupation that used abhorrent tactics in the past, far less so today. It is well-understood that Hamas is capable of evolving, and experts agree that the organisation has evolved since it became a serious political player. The tactic of collectively punishing Gazans in order to defeat Hamas is not only illegal and immoral, Israel itself acknowledges that it has failed.

Hamas has been dropping hints for years that it is ready to negotiate peace. That avenue has to be pursued rather than periodically obliterating a captive population living in a territory which the UN has said is now uninhabitable.
Are you seriously suggesting that Hamas is simply a resistance movement and any other interpretation is lazy and simplistic? I mean, that's out there, man.
 

MDFC Manager

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Hamas don't need tunnels to smuggle vital supplies into Gaza. That is one of the purposes of the crossings. Neither would Hamas need to smuggle in vital supplies if they accepted aid when it is offered.

"When an Italian tells me it's pasta on the plate I check under the sauce to make sure"
 

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1. What was Israel’s motivation for withdrawing from Gaza?

2. It was not just Gaza that elected Hamas. This was the Palestinian parliamentary elections.

3. They only kicked out Fatah AFTER Fatah colluded with the US and Israel to execute a coup against Hamas, which Hamas foiled.

4. Out of the world’s 190-odd countries, how many do you think consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation? The ANC was a designated terrorist organisation. So was the IRA and many others that were worthy enough to be negotiated with. The term “terrorist organisation” is lazy and simplistic, used to dehumanize Hamas. Hamas is a resistance group, born of occupation that used abhorrent tactics in the past, far less so today. It is well-understood that Hamas is capable of evolving, and experts agree that the organisation has evolved since it became a serious political player. The tactic of collectively punishing Gazans in order to defeat Hamas is not only illegal and immoral, Israel itself acknowledges that it has failed.

Hamas has been dropping hints for years that it is ready to negotiate peace. That avenue has to be pursued rather than periodically obliterating a captive population living in a territory which the UN has said is now uninhabitable.
2. True.

3. This was a claim made by the Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu Zuhri. I know there was/is connections between U.S. and Fatah. But I have no reason to believe Zuhri's claim.

4. "Terrorist organisation" is not a lazy and simplistic term used to dehumanise Hamas. It reflects the tactics Hamas employ and glorify on their website. Moreover, the only reason those tactics are not as effective today is because of Israeli security measures - not Hamas.

It is not illegal impose a blockade, and calling
it "collective punishment" is a misrepresentation of the legal phrase.
 
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Super Hans

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2. True.

3. This was a claim made by the Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu Zuhri. I know there was/is connections between U.S. and Fatah. But I have no reason to believe Zuhri's claim.

4. "Terrorist organisation" is not a lazy and simplistic term used to dehumanise Hamas. It reflects the tactics Hamas employ and glorify on their website. Moreover, the only reason those tactics are not as effective today is because of Israeli security measures - not Hamas.

It is not illegal impose a blockade, and calling
it "collective punishment" is a misrepresentation of the legal phrase.
1. Do you have a comment on Israel's motivation for the withdrawal?

3. How about Bush administration official, David Wurmser? “It looks to me that what happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen.” https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804

4. What tactics are you referring to? Say, in the last decade.

It is impossible to know that the virtual disappearance of Hamas terrorist attacks is solely or even mainly "because of Israeli security measures".

Collective punishment:
Human Rights Watch (2009): the blockade “amounts to collective punishment of the civilian population, a serious violation of international humanitarian law.”

UN Report of the International Fact-Finding Mission to Investigate Violations of International Law, Including International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights Law, Resulting from the Israeli Attacks on the Flotilla of Ships Carrying Humanitarian Assistance (2010), chaired by retired ICC judge: “One of the principal motives behind the imposition of the blockade was a desire to punish the people of the Gaza Strip for having elected Hamas. The combination of this motive and the effect of the restrictions on the Gaza Strip leave no doubt that Israel’s actions and policies amount to collective punishment as defined by international law.”

International Committee of the Red Cross (2010): “The whole of Gaza's civilian population is being punished for acts for which they bear no responsibility. The closure therefore constitutes a collective punishment imposed in clear violation of Israel's obligations under international humanitarian law.”

Amnesty (2010): “As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.”
 

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@Super Hans

I wonder did VF publish those confidential documents. I'll do some research.

The building of the barrier, the imposition of the blockade and destroying tunnels limit opportunities for terror. It has forced Hamas to resort to less effective alternatives (i.e. firing rockets and explosive laden kites) compared to suicide bombings. The barrier alone resulted in a drop in suicide bombing by 84% in less than two years.

Blockades and other forms of economic sanctions are permitted in international law, which sadly means civilians will suffer through no fault of their own. For example, the law governing blockades is outlined in the San Remo Manual.
 

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In my experience, many activists employ the same argument when demanding Israel unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank.

Fool me once ...
 
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Mozza

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Israel left Gaza to concentrate on stealing land in the West Bank, it wasn’t a concession, it wasn't a move towards peace
 

Super Hans

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In my experience, many activists employ the same argument when demanding Israel unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank.

Fool me once ...
I guess those BBC reporters didn't hear Dov Weisglass, Ariel Sharon's close advisor and the man in charge of the withdrawal, when he discussed it with Haaretz months before the withdrawal. His words deserve extended quotation:

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

AND

"That is exactly what happened. You know, the term `peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."

It's exactly what i've been saying. Israel doesn't want peace because the of the costs it would incur, and greatly prefers the fallback option.

It's also interesting that Douglas Carswell seems utterly oblivious that the rocket fire could be a retaliation to the murder of over a hundred Palestinian protesters, medics and journalists and the maiming of thousands more.
 

Chairman Woodie

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I guess those BBC reporters didn't hear Dov Weisglass, Ariel Sharon's close advisor and the man in charge of the withdrawal, when he discussed it with Haaretz months before the withdrawal. His words deserve extended quotation:

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

AND

"That is exactly what happened. You know, the term `peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."

It's exactly what i've been saying. Israel doesn't want peace because the of the costs it would incur, and greatly prefers the fallback option.
You have either distorted or misunderstood the crux of Weisglass' comments.

Weisglass was recapping the long established Israeli position that there will be no negotiating with the Palestinians until their leadership abandons terrorism.

As the Palestinians were not prepared to abandon terror, and because the continuation of Palestinian terror had stalled the 2002 Road Map, Weisglass added, that unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip was necessary to preserve this vision for a peaceful Palestinian state.

Weisglass concludes by saying Israel is not prepared make the sacrifices necessary under the Road Map "until the Palestinians turn into Finns" (i.e. renounce terrorism).
 
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Mozza

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You have either distorted or misunderstood the crux of Weisglass' comments.

Weisglass was recapping the long established Israeli position that there will be no negotiating with the Palestinians until their leadership abandons terrorism.

As the Palestinians were not prepared to abandon terror, and because the continuation of Palestinian terror had stalled the 2002 Road Map, Weisglass added, that unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip was necessary to preserve this vision for a peaceful Palestinian state.

Weisglass concludes by saying Israel is not prepared make the sacrifices necessary under the Road Map "until the Palestinians turn into Finns" (i.e. renounce terrorism).
The point of a peace process is to bring about a state of peace. If the Palestinians must renounce terrorism before they negotiate why would Israel negotiate once they had peaceful Palestinian leadership?