The Impossible Draft R1 - Brwned vs Pat_Mustard

[idmanager]

Meazza was obviously no winger and played pretty much the same position as V. Mazzola afaik.

Meazza had way more to his game in the attacking third while Mazzola was the kind of play maker who marshaled the midfield both during the attacking and defensive phases of the game. They should be okay.

Of course, I do think Meazza in his club career position (Left forward) would have been a brilliant fit with Mazzola at the diamond at the tip.

Against Pat I understand that might not be a huge advantage as compared to the current setup, but I had something like this in mind during the drafting phase for Brwned.

 

[Brwned]

Sorry I haven't been around much mate - had a busier than expected day.

There's not even a huge amount to argue about as we're broadly in agreement about the match. For all the attacking talent on show there won't be huge swathes of space available and it probably will be cagey enough. I'd disagree about the width issue though. Full backs gambling on getting forward is a basic tenet of modern football and I'm not willing to neuter the attacking output of one of the greatest full backs ever unless he was basically on a man-marking job against a Garrincha. As it is, that wing is only manned full-time on your team by Amoros. Both Facchetti and Amoros are excellent two way players but you'd back Facchetti to have the better match. Even if Facchetti does find himself stranded upfield when you counter (which is unlikely to happen that often), we've got a defensive colossus in Edwards to cover on that flank. I'm happy for Bessonov to play a bit more conservatively, both in light of Cha's goal threat and due to the fact that Bonhof is comfortable drifting out wide on that wing.

Speaking of Bessonov, I started making an all-touches video of him vs Atletico Madrid in the 86 ECWC final, hoping to profile him as an attacking full back, only to rage quit after half an hour when Baltacha went off injured and Bessonov switched to CB .

nightmare! I would've enjoyed that one myself! I was watching a ECWC game myself, Bobby Moore back in '65. I'd never realised he lifted that trophy at Wembley a year before the World Cup - kind of incredible! He actually had a brilliant game start to finish, but I got bored of the idea of making a highlights video pretty early on and just decided to watch the game!

Sorry I didn't mean there wasn't enough conversation between us - there's nothing we've disagreed on! I even agree with your point above when you put it that way I meant more the people who decisively voted either way, it's always good to get those folks involved if possible.

Cha Bum has weird positioning in that formation @Brwned . Was he really a left midfielder ? From all the videos I've seen of him he always seems to be running through the middle and he seem a goal scoring forward. Meazza was obviously no winger and played pretty much the same position as V. Mazzola afaik. Pat's personnel for diamond formation is more or less excellent and I can't see it breaking down through the middle with his midfield & defense. I think team brwned lacks the tools to exploit the narrowness of Pat's formation and think Pat would narrowly nick a win here with a solitary Romario goal.

On both counts that's not a fair representation, IMO. Cha absolutely was not someone who stuck down the middle - hence @Gio calling him a winger-cum-striker. Naturally there's not a lot of footage of him but here's a full game of his in a the UEFA cup final, spending most of his game on the right wing. Bear in mind this is him at 36, so far from Cha at the peak of his powers. But he's still decisive in a critical game. And the 10 minutes highlights video above has him doing all sorts of stuff from either wing. The other thing to bear in mind is that with the exception of Juve's version of the Zona Mista, you would've said the same thing about Bettega...he's not a winger. And that's true. But the role he played wasn't that of a winger.

On the flipside Meazza did not in any way play in the same position as Mazzola. He was dropped back as an inside forward for Italy because Schiavio and Piola were great centre-forwards and he was a complete attacker, but he was primarily a forward. Worth bearing in mind he got an assist for a goal in the World Cup from the wing, he was known for drifting all over the frontline (playing as a striker, left inside forward, right inside forward) and absolutely roasting pretty much every defender he faced at least once. He'd love that space out wide. Mazzola on the other hand was described as an early example of a box-to-box midfielder - an attacking player and a supreme playmaker, absolutely, but not anything like Meazza in style or the spaces they typically occupied.

 

[Brwned]

Some more info on my two Italian superstars who a lot of my midfield and attacking game revolves around...

Valentino Mazzola

“He alone is half the squad. The other half is made by the rest of us together.”

“He was a player who could carry the whole team and was the greatest Italian player of all time.”

Source

"If not for the events of May 4, 1949, the name Valentino Mazzola would probably be placed amongst the very best players of all time. On that day, the members of Il Grande Torino, the first super-team to emerge after the events of World War Two, were almost all killed on a hillside near Torino – at the Superga Basilica – in an air disaster that claimed the lives of nearly all the starters of not only Torino, but the Azzurri, the Italian national team. It’s a date that lives in infamy for followers of calcio.

Mazzola kept playing football and training hard during this time – from 1939-1942 he made 61 appearances for Venezia and began to hone and perfect his game. Already a fine midfielder, Mazzola was blooming into what we might call today a box-to-box midfielder, with the ability to also play in the centre-forward position. So versatile was his game that he could virtually play in any position on the field, even goalkeeper. A student of the game, quenching his thirst for knowledge that led him to study and train as a mechanic, Mazzola would spend hours learning the intricacies of calcio and how he could influence the game through better positioning.

Torino played greedy football, as if the ball belonged to them; in their minds if the other team had the ball it must’ve be a mistake, they didn’t deserve it, and they pressed aggressively to win it back. Once the ball was back in the hands of Torino it was being pushed up the field to one of flanks through the star of the side and pin-up boy of calcio, Valentino Mazzola. The Italy hero always knew what to do with the ball, whether it was a pinpoint pass to a charging centre-forward or a blistering shot on goal, Valentino made the decisions. He rarely made mistakes."

Source

"Due to his outstanding performances in his three years at Venezia, interest in taking the quick, skilful attacking midfielder to a bigger club was high and so it was that, in 1942, Torino president Ferrucio Novo spent the handsome sum of 1.2 million lire on bringing Mazzola to the Granata where he was to become an icon and, undoubtedly, the greatest player that has ever pulled on the claret jersey. Not only that but Mazzola could also be considered to be one of the most complete football players of all time.

Rarely has a player combined such finesse, determination, spirit and magnificent footballing ability to the effect that the Torino captain did. He possessed a terrific ability to beat an opponent with his quick feet and pace as well as excellent aerial ability and an accurate, powerful strike with both feet."

Source

Giuseppe Meazza

"To have him in your team meant to start 1-0 up."

"I also saw Pele playing. He did not achieve Meazza's elegant style of playing. One day, I witnessed him doing something astonishing. He stopped the ball with a bicycle kick, elevating himself two meters from the ground. Then he landed with the ball glued at his foot, dribbled over an astonished defender, and then went on to score a goal with one of his hallmark shots, sardonic and accurate to the millimeter."

"Meazza was great, unbeatable, even if he would occasionally run into a frightful crisis, caused by his intense sexual activity and his passion for the game. When he took over on the field, he did things that left the mouth ajar."

"I'm not selfish on the field. I like that my team-mates score goals too, to the point I even get rebuked: 'You were supposed to shoot!' There is nothing worse than individualism."

"The following season, he netted 24 goals for his club and continued to deliver at international level. He hit a first-half hat-trick to help Italy to a 5-0 win over France in January 1931, and the following month, playing against Hugo Meisl's Austrian Wunderteam, he scored what he would later describe as the finest goal of his career. Picking up the ball on the halfway line, he had embarked on a solo run into the penalty area. Pausing in front of goalkeeper Rodolphe Hiden, he drew him off his line - "like the bullfighter calls the beast," as the great journalist Gianni Brera put it - before evading a challenge, flicking the ball from right foot to left and placing it into the empty net. The goal helped Italy to their first ever victory over Austria."

Source

"His dash, intelligence and rapid and powerful shooting, coupled with his peculiar capacity for enticing the goalkeeper out of his goal, have won for him many admirers, who declare that he is unrivalled."

Source

"It wasn't just his scoring talent that made him such a fantastic footballer, he also possessed skills on the ball that would even have Lionel Messi mesmorized. He was a complete footballer who used his passion for dancing the tango to assist him on the pitch with his trademark twists and turns. Though not the tallest player, he was excellent in the air, had a truly inspiring vision for the game across the field of play, and by playing with both feet, he was a brilliant passer of the ball. All these skills meant he could not only score countless goals, but he also provided many for his teammates too."

Source

 

[Brwned]

Great match, @Brwned at his best!

Still waiting to be convinced re a winner though, the summary above describing a stalemate looks pretty spot on to me at the moment!

I'll throw one thing out there - big moments in the biggest games...

Romario for all his unbelievable skill couldn't manage a goal in that World Cup final thanks to Baresi's masterful performance. I'd be hoping to see Moore to do the same here. Also has very few big goals to his name, in truth. Similarly there was no crowning moment of glory for Leonidas. What you do have is Rivera scoring the winning goal against Germany in that ridiculous semi-final in 1970!

On the other hand we have Cha Bum Kun, scorer in 2 of the 3 cup finals he played in - the last one being absolutely crucial, in a critical moment.

Meazza got an assist in both WC finals, along with scoring in both semi-finals. And while it's entirely forgotten by us lot these days, the Central European International Cup was a legitimate alternative to the World Cup at that time, with all three of the WC finalists in 1934 and 1938 coming from central Europe (Italy, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) and then you've got the Austrian Wunderteam thrown in on top. While winning back-to-back World Cups, Italy won back-to-back Central European International Cups - with Meazza scoring in the opening game of the 1931-32 tournament from the halfway line against the Austrian Wunderteam, and a hat trick in the final game of the 1929-31 tournament against the first great Hungarian team to win the cup...at the age of 20! And finally we have the Battle of Highbury, just a few months after Italy's 1934 WC win, and what many people in England considered the "real" World Cup final as England had abstained from the tournament - Meazza gets another two goals.

Then we come to the wonderful Mario Coluna, used to being overshadowed by the spectacular Eusébio and the Italian duo are doing the same here. But before Eusébio joined that team, Coluna had already won a European Cup - the first European Cup any team other than Real Madrid had won. And they did it with a scorcher from Coluna himself. The following year Eusébio joins and the same happens again, another European Cup final, another scorcher from Coluna. Few players have scored in multiple European Cup finals, never mind back-to-back finals, never mind long rangers in back-to-back finals they won...that's real pedigree.

We've just saw what Kanté can do marking Messi, and we know how Romario faired against Baresi - with those two being so closely shackled it is about who can come up with the big goal in the big moments. And on the flipside Meazza has no destroyer facing him - Boszik was a wonderful all-rounder but as Pat describes him, he was a deep lying playmaker first and foremost. And there is no-one of Moore/Baresi's level to shackle him either, while Edwards is dealing with Valentino. With that little bit of freedom I think Meazza can be the star attacker here, and there can't be any question about the kind of damage he can do if he's allowed to take centre stage...

Meazza had way more to his game in the attacking third while Mazzola was the kind of play maker who marshaled the midfield both during the attacking and defensive phases of the game. They should be okay.

Of course, I do think Meazza in his club career position (Left forward) would have been a brilliant fit with Mazzola at the diamond at the tip.

Against Pat I understand that might not be a huge advantage as compared to the current setup, but I had something like this in mind during the drafting phase for Brwned.

To me that just seems a bit...boring. Surely we should be playing around with things here? The two greatest Italian club sides of all-time played with an entirely lopsided, "unbalanced" setup because it was ultimately about overloading certain areas, utilising the full pitch, luring the opposition into traps etc. This illusion of "balance" isn't something that real teams aspired for, so I don't know why it's held up as the gold standard on here personally.

In the end the only thing that would be discussed about that setup is the fullbacks, and Hapgood not being a modern fullback. We'd just be recycling the same discussions that happened dozens of times before, hoping the symmetry wins a few votes regardless. Surely that's not the aim here...

 

[Gio]

Tough one to separate. I think Pat's team is my favourite of all in the first round. Quality, fit, complementarity - it's all there in spades. Brwned's needs a bit of thought to get your head around. But he matches up well to Pat's main threats, with Moore probably the best man in the pool to tackle the almost unique skillset of Romario. Similarly, Kante could be a pain in the arse for Rivera (and the Italian was also a great coup so late on). And the lopsided Mista is well placed to mitigate the diamond with Cha Boom getting the freedom to play much higher.

To me that just seems a bit...boring. Surely we should be playing around with things here? The two greatest Italian club sides of all-time played with an entirely lopsided, "unbalanced" setup because it was ultimately about overloading certain areas, utilising the full pitch, luring the opposition into traps etc. This illusion of "balance" isn't something that real teams aspired for, so I don't know why it's held up as the gold standard on here personally.

Very true (although the mista has had some love here in the past). I gave up banging that drum a long time ago.

 

[idmanager]

To me that just seems a bit...boring. Surely we should be playing around with things here? The two greatest Italian club sides of all-time played with an entirely lopsided, "unbalanced" setup because it was ultimately about overloading certain areas, utilising the full pitch, luring the opposition into traps etc. This illusion of "balance" isn't something that real teams aspired for, so I don't know why it's held up as the gold standard on here personally.

In the end the only thing that would be discussed about that setup is the fullbacks, and Hapgood not being a modern fullback. We'd just be recycling the same discussions that happened dozens of times before, hoping the symmetry wins a few votes regardless. Surely that's not the aim here...

Don't get me wrong, I already agreed that it wouldn't have too much advantage against Pat and the current setup is quite fine. Its just the formation I imagined you had in mind when you were drafting.

Regarding the balance part, its not good to completely rule it out.
Meazza for example from the right was much more of an inside forward / AM rather than someone who would drift wide or score plenty of goals from. He also had a right winger alongside him when he played the inside forward role from the right for Italy.
The goals through his career at his peak came from the left. So did the assists from the wings you mention about from what I remember.
In that regards, Mazzola and Meazza will be a bit under used and overlapped.
Mazzola like Di Stefano did operate a lot from the deep, but first he was a tremendous creator and scorer from the Number 10 position which he will have to share space with Meazza here. Again, not to say it can't work.

Coming back to the formation I mentioned, it was from the POV of maximizing the output from Mazzola and Meazza and not this game in general.

 

[Tuppet]

On both counts that's not a fair representation, IMO. Cha absolutely was not someone who stuck down the middle - hence @Gio calling him a winger-cum-striker. Naturally there's not a lot of footage of him but here's a full game of his in a the UEFA cup final, spending most of his game on the right wing. Bear in mind this is him at 36, so far from Cha at the peak of his powers. But he's still decisive in a critical game. And the 10 minutes highlights video above has him doing all sorts of stuff from either wing. The other thing to bear in mind is that with the exception of Juve's version of the Zona Mista, you would've said the same thing about Bettega...he's not a winger. And that's true. But the role he played wasn't that of a winger.

On the flipside Meazza did not in any way play in the same position as Mazzola. He was dropped back as an inside forward for Italy because Schiavio and Piola were great centre-forwards and he was a complete attacker, but he was primarily a forward. Worth bearing in mind he got an assist for a goal in the World Cup from the wing, he was known for drifting all over the frontline (playing as a striker, left inside forward, right inside forward) and absolutely roasting pretty much every defender he faced at least once. He'd love that space out wide. Mazzola on the other hand was described as an early example of a box-to-box midfielder - an attacking player and a supreme playmaker, absolutely, but not anything like Meazza in style or the spaces they typically occupied.

Fair points. I didn't have too much of a problem with Meazza & Mazzola anyway was just mentioning that they both played inside forward role in their teams. Not convinced with Cha Bum's wing credentials but you are right that Bettega made it work and he seem more of same profile as Cha Bum.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'll throw one thing out there - big moments in the biggest games...

Romario for all his unbelievable skill couldn't manage a goal in that World Cup final thanks to Baresi's masterful performance. I'd be hoping to see Moore to do the same here. Also has very few big goals to his name, in truth. Similarly there was no crowning moment of glory for Leonidas. What you do have is Rivera scoring the winning goal against Germany in that ridiculous semi-final in 1970!

On the other hand we have Cha Bum Kun, scorer in 2 of the 3 cup finals he played in - the last one being absolutely crucial, in a critical moment.

Meazza got an assist in both WC finals, along with scoring in both semi-finals. And while it's entirely forgotten by us lot these days, the Central European International Cup was a legitimate alternative to the World Cup at that time, with all three of the WC finalists in 1934 and 1938 coming from central Europe (Italy, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) and then you've got the Austrian Wunderteam thrown in on top. While winning back-to-back World Cups, Italy won back-to-back Central European International Cups - with Meazza scoring in the opening game of the 1931-32 tournament from the halfway line against the Austrian Wunderteam, and a hat trick in the final game of the 1929-31 tournament against the first great Hungarian team to win the cup...at the age of 20! And finally we have the Battle of Highbury, just a few months after Italy's 1934 WC win, and what many people in England considered the "real" World Cup final as England had abstained from the tournament - Meazza gets another two goals.

Then we come to the wonderful Mario Coluna, used to being overshadowed by the spectacular Eusébio and the Italian duo are doing the same here. But before Eusébio joined that team, Coluna had already won a European Cup - the first European Cup any team other than Real Madrid had won. And they did it with a scorcher from Coluna himself. The following year Eusébio joins and the same happens again, another European Cup final, another scorcher from Coluna. Few players have scored in multiple European Cup finals, never mind back-to-back finals, never mind long rangers in back-to-back finals they won...that's real pedigree.

We've just saw what Kanté can do marking Messi, and we know how Romario faired against Baresi - with those two being so closely shackled it is about who can come up with the big goal in the big moments. And on the flipside Meazza has no destroyer facing him - Boszik was a wonderful all-rounder but as Pat describes him, he was a deep lying playmaker first and foremost. And there is no-one of Moore/Baresi's level to shackle him either, while Edwards is dealing with Valentino. With that little bit of freedom I think Meazza can be the star attacker here, and there can't be any question about the kind of damage he can do if he's allowed to take centre stage...

I'd say that's a slightly harsh appraisal of my lads' big match credentials

Romario scored 5 goals in a single World Cup, including goals in the quarter final and the winner in the semi-final. He also scored in every match of the final stage of the 1989 Copa America en route to winning the tournament. He scored a hat trick vs Real Madrid in El Clasico. His performance in the WC 94 was actually quite good, and he did keep his nerve in the penalty shootout FWIW:


And for all Baresi's 1994 heroics, there's no doubt that Romario can tie defenders from that top tier in knots:


His partner Leonidas was impeccable on the biggest stage, scoring in every World Cup match he ever played, with a total of 8 goals in 5 WC matches. There can't be many players in history who can top that. Rivera, in addition to his decisive contribution vs West Germany that you mentioned, was superb in Milan's dismantling of Cruyff's Ajax in the 1969 CL final:


Bonhof was man of the match vs Liverpool in a UEFA Cup final even in a losing effort, while Godin's credentials are built in large part upon his brilliant big-match mentality.

 

[Brwned]

Don't get me wrong, I already agreed that it wouldn't have too much advantage against Pat and the current setup is quite fine. Its just the formation I imagined you had in mind when you were drafting.

Regarding the balance part, its not good to completely rule it out.
Meazza for example from the right was much more of an inside forward / AM rather than someone who would drift wide or score plenty of goals from. He also had a right winger alongside him when he played the inside forward role from the right for Italy.
The goals through his career at his peak came from the left. So did the assists from the wings you mention about from what I remember.
In that regards, Mazzola and Meazza will be a bit under used and overlapped.
Mazzola like Di Stefano did operate a lot from the deep, but first he was a tremendous creator and scorer from the Number 10 position which he will have to share space with Meazza here. Again, not to say it can't work.

Coming back to the formation I mentioned, it was from the POV of maximizing the output from Mazzola and Meazza and not this game in general.

Can you elaborate more on the idea that Meazza became a totally different player playing on the left vs. the right...and why one would lead to the other?

@Pat_Mustard look forward to watching those videos later! I do love Romario. I've generally found him somewhat pigeon-holed and underrated due to his insane goals record...he had magic in those boots!!

 

[Enigma_87]

Meazza had way more to his game in the attacking third while Mazzola was the kind of play maker who marshaled the midfield both during the attacking and defensive phases of the game. They should be okay.

Of course, I do think Meazza in his club career position (Left forward) would have been a brilliant fit with Mazzola at the diamond at the tip.

Against Pat I understand that might not be a huge advantage as compared to the current setup, but I had something like this in mind during the drafting phase for Brwned.

That would be something I've voted for. Just replace Weah with Meazza and plays a lot to Brwned strengths.

Weah vs Schulz could create all sorts of issues and that back three Moore/Pereira and Kante shielding would limit the Rivera/Romario combo as Kante would have to deal with Rivera directly considering what Netto would also bring to the midfield battle.

As it is Kante has a lot of defensive duties to run, whilst Netto would bring a lot of balance in that midfield battle considering what he's up against.

 

[idmanager]

Can you elaborate more on the idea that Meazza became a totally different player playing on the left vs. the right...and why one would lead to the other?

Sure, based on what I have read, at Inter he started off as a striker and then moved to the Left wing forward / inside left positions. Was really prolific and scored almost 2 in 3 games for Inter Milan.

For the national team in the WC's though, he very rarely started at that position.
He did play the number 9 and inside left role early in his career but not a lot from the 1934 world cup
In the world cups, he played in the inside forward role and played it spectacularly.
But it did impact his goals outcome. Scored only 3 in 9 games in the 2 WC combined with 1 being a penalty and one a set piece.
You can see the difference in his scoring rates before and after in general.

Italy national team
Year Apps Goals
1930 5 6
1931 6 5
1932 4 2
1933 5 5
1934 9 7
1935 3 2
1936 4 2
1937 5 1
1938 6 3
1939 6 0
Total 53 33

He was right footed so you imagine why he would have scored more goals as a left forward. He hardly ever played as a pure striker though except for his teen years.

His assists tally of course was always amazing for Italy at the WC's as he was the main creator along with Ferrari through whom everything went.
He won the golden ball at the WC not for his goals from the right but for his play making skills.

Again only based on what I have read, he did like to drift wide from time to time but that was mostly left sided. I don't have any links handy right now though.

 

[harms]

Bonhof was man of the match vs Liverpool in a UEFA Cup final even in a losing effort

Plus he assisted Gerd Muller's winning goal in the WC 74 final and provided 4 assists in the semi-final and final of 76 Euros

 

[Indnyc]

Except for Ernst Hapgood

I was on Mobile and reading about Ernst Ocwirk! Complete brain fart

 

[Physiocrat]

I was on Mobile and reading about Ernst Ocwirk! Complete brain fart

I thought it was a Nazi salute joke.

 

[Brwned]

Sure, based on what I have read, at Inter he started off as a striker and then moved to the Left wing forward / inside left positions. Was really prolific and scored almost 2 in 3 games for Inter Milan.

For the national team in the WC's though, he very rarely started at that position.
He did play the number 9 and inside left role early in his career but not a lot from the 1934 world cup
In the world cups, he played in the inside forward role and played it spectacularly.
But it did impact his goals outcome. Scored only 3 in 9 games in the 2 WC combined with 1 being a penalty and one a set piece.
You can see the difference in his scoring rates before and after in general.

Italy national team
Year Apps Goals
1930 5 6
1931 6 5
1932 4 2
1933 5 5
1934 9 7
1935 3 2
1936 4 2
1937 5 1
1938 6 3
1939 6 0
Total 53 33

He was right footed so you imagine why he would have scored more goals as a left forward. He hardly ever played as a pure striker though except for his teen years.

His assists tally of course was always amazing for Italy at the WC's as he was the main creator along with Ferrari through whom everything went.
He won the golden ball at the WC not for his goals from the right but for his play making skills.

Again only based on what I have read, he did like to drift wide from time to time but that was mostly left sided. I don't have any links handy right now though.

For the 12 games in 1938 and 1939, he was suffering quite badly with injury...

However, the player had been suffering injury problems during the tournament, and his fitness would become an increasing concern as he made only 16 appearances in the 1938-39 season.

His club reclaimed the Scudetto in the 1939-40 season, but Meazza made no contribution. He was suffering badly with a foot problem - described as a "foot of ice" - that saw spasms in his arteries limit blood circulation. It was with some surprise, then, that in November 1940 he signed for AC Milan.

It was several weeks before he was able to make his return to action and, when he did play, he was clearly past his best. There were odd glimpses of the Meazza of old, and his football brain was as sharp as ever, but his body could no longer keep up. Gianni Brera later wrote that, during his time with the Rossoneri, he had looked as though he were "on the verge of dropping dead any minute".

Spoiler: "That frozen foot of Meazza" (from "Il Calcio Illustrato", December 1939)

And after the beating his feet took in his early years...it's not hard to guess why!

Meazza had to fight for his dream. He had grown up playing with rolled up rags in lieu of a ball, and his mother - who took against her son's dream - hid his shoes in a bid to stop him playing. "I had to wrap bits of cloth around my feet, but it actually served me much better than boots, although my feet would often end up bleeding after a frantic football session in the fields."

So if you remove those last two years, he had 30 goals in 41 games (0.73 gpg) - better than his record of 241 goals in 348 appearances for Inter in his first stint (0.69 gpg). It is undoubtedly true that he played on the right for Italy, and the left for Inter - but the numbers illustrate that he was remarkable prolific from either position. He just managed to be a supreme playmaker on top of that for Italy, at least in part because the Italian team was a level above the Inter team and provided him with more goal threats to hit.

 

[Brwned]

Just to bring a bit more colour to what is surely the most unknown outfield player here, I'm going to pull some of that info out of the spoilers...

Eddie Hapgood

Key Achievements / Career Overview
A virtual ever-present (and eventual captain) in one of the most dominant teams in English football: Chapman's Arsenal. They were the first English team to win 4 league titles in a 5-year span: the only teams to repeat that feat were Liverpool in the 80s and United in the 90s and 00s.

Also captained England during a particularly acrimonious period, summed up by two games: "The Battle of Highbury" and the game against Germany when England were forced to give a Nazi salute. At the Battle of Highbury they beat Italy just a few months after they'd won the World Cup, underlining the quality of that England side - a side made up of 7 Arsenal players, underlining the dominance of that Arsenal team not only domestically but internationally.

Style of Play
In Jeff Harris' book, "Arsenal Who's Who", he describes him as being technically exceptional, elegant, calm and with great anticipation. Arsenal's assistant manager Bob Wall describes him as setting the highest possible standard in technical skill. Described in the Oxford Biography as having exceptional speed and outstanding heading, allied with his outstanding positioning, anticipation and timing of tackles, and setting the standard for "footballing fullbacks" thereafter.

Remembered by many as being one of the few players that could contain the great Stanley Matthews, most notably in a charity game during WWII between Arsenal and an RAF XI, when Matthews was so subdued that Hapgood drew boos from the crowd for preventing them from seeing their hero dazzle with some magic.

Initially he played as one of the back 2 in a 235 formation, he established himself as a legend of the game as a left full back in Chapman's "revolutionary" 325 and is at home in this inside-left position, capable of matching up one on one vs. Stanley Matthews or tucking in and acting as a third centre back. Ideal for the Gentile role of half centre back, half full back - pure defender.

Quotes

"The dressing room erupted. There was bedlam. All the England players were livid and totally opposed to this, myself included. Everyone was shouting at once. Eddie Hapgood, normally a respectful and devoted captain, wagged his finger at the official and told him what he could do with the Nazi salute, which involved putting it where the sun doesn't shine."

"Hapgood's many splendid attributes included, being technically exceptional, he showed shrewd anticipation and he was elegant, polished, unruffled and calm."

"Hapgood was an extraordinary youngster. Confident beyond his years, some people found him insufferable at times. But it was the supreme confidence in his own ability which made him such a great player."

"He (Hapgood) played his football in a calm, authoritative way and he would analyse a game in the same quiet, clear-cut manner. Eddie set Arsenal players the highest possible example in technical skill and personal behaviour."

All above quotes from here

"Arsenal's success in the 1930s, which brought five league championships and three cup final appearances, was based on Chapman's strategy of sound defence and rapid counter-attack. Hapgood, as left full-back, played a key role in this system. Of average height and medium build, a non-smoker and teetotaller, he relied upon exceptional speed, precision in the tackle, excellent positional sense, and, despite his height, outstanding heading ability. He always strove for a high level of physical fitness, encouraged by Arsenal's advanced training methods. In the Arsenal defensive formation the full-backs provided cover for the ‘stopper’ centre-half, and in this role Hapgood shaped a new style of full-back play which contrasted with the crude physical methods employed by many full-backs of his day. His technique was to manoeuvre his opponent away from dangerous positions, dispossess with a well-timed tackle or interception, and set up an attack with a shrewdly placed, often short, pass. He rarely used the shoulder charge. His method was acknowledged by his most redoubtable opponent, the Stoke City and England right-winger Stanley Matthews, whose threat Hapgood contained more effectively than most: '[Hapgood] could give and take a pass; a classic player, one of the first footballing full-backs' (Miller, 35). His method became the benchmark by which future generations of full-backs set their standard."

Oxford Biography

One of great defenders pre-WWII, no question. The fact he's going unmentioned up against a strike duo of Romario and Leonidas is only a good thing, but still, for those who didn't get a chance to read some of the spoilers stuff earlier!

He was also known for being one of the first footballers to write an autobiography...but by all accounts it was decidedly dull!

 

[Brwned]

Something like this may look a bit more neater and attract more votes. The whole pitch looks occupied and it looks a bit more balanced even though everyone is more or less in the same position as your original picture.

@Edgar Allan Pillow can you use this image for the last couple of hours? Can't imagine there's many votes left but worth a go!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm sitting in a doctor's clinic and finding it hard to do a picture swap on phone. Will try again...

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Pat seems to have pulled away in Fergie time! Hard luck @Brwned congrats @Pat_Mustard

 

[harms]

Great team and effort @Brwned

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

If visual appeal is what people are after that's cool, but accuracy...it doesn't exist in any graphics by anyone.

It not just appeal, but how we communicate our thoughts to others. It works hand in hand with the write-up.

 

[Theon]

Hard luck @Brwned

Went for you on the strength of your arguments and I did think you matched up well against Pat’s strengths - plus you had a viable counter attacking approach to pull off an upset.

Overall though I don’t think anyone was beating @Pat_Mustard this round, bar maybe Enigma. He drafted perfectly and got a lot of his key men in perfect moments draft wise (Edwards in particular was a coup).

 

[Brwned]

Bugger! Well played as always @Pat_Mustard!

 

[antohan]

Good to see you back @Brwned

I'm a sucker for zona mista but you are unfortunately facing some big time favourites of mine and catching me with high hopes of the Pharaoh in GODin mode.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Good to see you back @Brwned

I'm a sucker for zona mista but you are unfortunately facing some big time favourites of mine and catching me with high hopes of the Pharaoh in GODin mode.

Thoughts about QF?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Great presentation @Brwned - template for others, that.

No issues with the zona mista, players suit it well. Bit of a hard-sell, though, I suppose. Kudos on the effort - leftfield, interesting inclusions, Cha not least (in a key role, nothing less, which is ballsy).

Still, let's not forget that @Pat_Mustard has done very little wrong here. Mix of overwhelming individuals, vote winners and a setup which makes sense.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Well done @Brwned .... I'll be honest, not football officianado like majority here so while I get the gist of zona mista, probably just didn't grab me and my simple brain could cope more easily with @Pat_Mustard formation, plus some of my favourites in his team.

Thanks for the info on Cha Bum-kun too... knew the name but read up on him (after your pick) and watched your videos.... surprised me, really nicelooking, fluid player?

 

[antohan]

Thoughts about QF?

We need to knick a 1-0 or draw with penalties and won't have our top scorer. Would have called it 50-50, now 35-65 (I'm an optimist).

Agree on not rushing him though, if it got worse the final prize would be 0-100 and the final prize is the entire point.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

We need to knick a 1-0 or draw with penalties and won't have our top scorer. Would have called it 50-50, now 35-65 (I'm an optimist).

Agree on not rushing him though, if it got worse the final prize would be 0-100 and the final prize is the entire point.

Is he definitely out? Thought it was unlikely but undecided yet?

Biting aside, Suarez is a good player and think could do a decent job as a sole striker? Pack the midfield, make sure they have runners, 451?

 

[antohan]

Is he definitely out? Thought it was unlikely but undecided yet?

Biting aside, Suarez is a good player and think could do a decent job as a sole striker? Pack the midfield, make sure they have runners, 451?

Suarez is past it. Will cause trouble, sure, but Cavani has been more important to us for some time now.

Definitely out and on the bench. May come on second half if we are desperate but can't for the life of me see Tabárez starting him unless he has made a miracle recovery tomorrow.

Touch and go means bench with Tabárez and sticking to that logic has usually brought the best out of those filling in. It's not "you are only there because Cavani is injured" but "you are there because we trust you, you are part of the squad because you have a role to play in all this".

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Suarez is past it. Will cause trouble, sure, but Cavani has been more important to us for some time now.

Definitely out and on the bench. May come on second half if we are desperate but can't for the life of me see Tabárez starting him unless he has made a miracle recovery tomorrow.

Touch and go means bench with Tabárez and sticking to that logic has usually brought the best out of those filling in. It's not "you are only there because Cavani is injured" but "you are there because we trust you, you are part of the squad because you have a role to play in all this".

Out of all the fan nationalities to be negative about Suarez, I didn't think it'd be a Uruguayan. I think he'll do fine.... we'll see? (Working , have to tape it, then watch second I get home, before second match)

Stuani play upfront?

 

[antohan]

My guess is we will start Stuani as a side midfielder in the same role Cavani had in 2010, helping the team morph from 4-5-1 (actually 4-1-4-1 tomorrow) to 4-4-2

The problem is he has always done that on the right and we need it on the left. Rodríguez isn't fit at all and I'd rather play Nández (right) than De Arrascaeta (most likely candidate for left). The middle three of Torreira, Bentancur and Vecino is untouchable IMO.

 

[antohan]

One way around it is playing Laxalt in the Palito Pereira role of 2010. The default was 4-4-1-1 and Palito would drop back as a LWB with Cavani pushing up and making it 5-3-2.

Nández benched and Stuani would work perfectly as Cavani v.2010. Gastón Silva at LB cum CB or Cáceres back to the left cum CB with Varela right (prefer the former).

The key difference would be Bentancur is nowhere near Forlán 2010.

 

[Enigma_87]

We need to knick a 1-0 or draw with penalties and won't have our top scorer. Would have called it 50-50, now 35-65 (I'm an optimist).

Agree on not rushing him though, if it got worse the final prize would be 0-100 and the final prize is the entire point.

France is the better team of individuals, but I guess you'll want it more. In terms of mentality Uruguay is probably the best team left. That and the strong defence is really a bad fit for France.

To me the best two teams left in the competition will meet tomorrow.

 

[antohan]

France is the better team of individuals, but I guess you'll want it more. In terms of mentality Uruguay is probably the best team left. That and the strong defence is really a bad fit for France.

To me the best two teams left in the competition will meet tomorrow.

I've no doubt we are the better and more tactically disciplined TEAM, they have individual talent in spades though and with us under siege and lacking the outlet of a two-pronged WC strike pair one mistake and we are done.

And then there's the ticking timebomb of Suárez getting frustrated

 

[Brwned]

Good to see you back @Brwned

I'm a sucker for zona mista but you are unfortunately facing some big time favourites of mine and catching me with high hopes of the Pharaoh in GODin mode.

Hey Anto

Can't argue with that at all! I said from the beginning I'm a big fan of @Pat_Mustard's team - as is inevitably the case! Same with @Gio. Over the years I wondered if there was some bias creeping in there because they're good folk and fellow football weirdos, but in this case I had every reason to want Pat to lose...and I still loved his team! Hence why I went all out on the quotes and all that jazz - I needed something to tip the scales! And ultimately that's always been the most fun part for me. Reminding myself how good Moore was, discovering the depths of Hapgood's reputation, uncovering the stories about Valentino Mazzola...all great fun! And I think the slightly out there tactic counted for very little in reality - a 60/40 win seems perfectly reasonable given how well-made Pat's team was!

Well done @Brwned .... I'll be honest, not football officianado like majority here so while I get the gist of zona mista, probably just didn't grab me and my simple brain could cope more easily with @Pat_Mustard formation, plus some of my favourites in his team.

Thanks for the info on Cha Bum-kun too... knew the name but read up on him (after your pick) and watched your videos.... surprised me, really nicelooking, fluid player?

Likewise! I'd knew a little bit of him before - was probably first introduced to him when Gio drafted him, then read up about him being the Asian player of the century etc. But this was the first time I really looked into him and I do genuinely think he was a near-perfect fit for Bettega's really bizarre role of half target man, half all-action wide midfielder. Totally appreciate @Tuppet's scepticism given his consistent portrayal as a forward in a front two but he could do a bit of everything all over that attacking third, and Matthaus' comments right after the match and 20 years later really capture the different dimensions to his game. The kind of player that made an attack tick without ever needing to be at the centre of the game, while at the same time providing real individual quality in his dribbling, goalscoring and final passes. And he was such a selfless player off the ball. The fact he kept that going at the highest level until 36, especially given the kind of all-action player he was, really speaks volumes about his career contribution. I'm happy to have helped share his story!

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This is from John Foote's Calcio book on Valentino:

 

[Moby]

Plus he assisted Gerd Muller's winning goal in the WC 74 final and provided 4 assists in the semi-final and final of 76 Euros

Mentioning Bonhof is like showing a bat signal for harms.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

This is from John Foote's Calcio book on Valentino:

Spoiler

Great stuff mate.

Can't argue with that at all! I said from the beginning I'm a big fan of @Pat_Mustard's team - as is inevitably the case! Same with @Gio. Over the years I wondered if there was some bias creeping in there because they're good folk and fellow football weirdos, but in this case I had every reason to want Pat to lose...and I still loved his team! Hence why I went all out on the quotes and all that jazz - I needed something to tip the scales! And ultimately that's always been the most fun part for me. Reminding myself how good Moore was, discovering the depths of Hapgood's reputation, uncovering the stories about Valentino Mazzola...all great fun! And I think the slightly out there tactic counted for very little in reality - a 60/40 win seems perfectly reasonable given how well-made Pat's team was!

Cheers mate and well played! I hope you stick around the drafts and don't go into retirement as your input was superb.

Hard luck @Brwned

Went for you on the strength of your arguments and I did think you matched up well against Pat’s strengths - plus you had a viable counter attacking approach to pull off an upset.

Overall though I don’t think anyone was beating @Pat_Mustard this round, bar maybe Enigma. He drafted perfectly and got a lot of his key men in perfect moments draft wise (Edwards in particular was a coup).

Thanks mate. I was pretty lucky in the drafting with certain crucial players lasting back to me, as with all the blocks and restrictions there was very little margin for error after I'd committed to the diamond formation. I'm probably buggered in the reinforcements though as it'll be tough to strengthen significantly without changing formation.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Plus he assisted Gerd Muller's winning goal in the WC 74 final and provided 4 assists in the semi-final and final of 76 Euros

I forgot it was him that assisted Muller in the WC final. That would actually have been an ideal example of him providing width on the right wing. @Moby is right that Bonhof has attracted quite a cult-like following from a few of us . He's pretty much my go-to guy whenever I play a diamond, and I'm going to try him at wing back some time soon.