It doesnt but when you have a team who conceded most of their goals to set pieces, its probably not a good idea to get worse at defending them dont you think?
Toby Alderweireld
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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"Double Toby's numbers and add 5 if you want"Vertonghen played 36 games to Toby's 14. Double Toby's numbers and add 5 if you want
Also the player who outperformed and replaced him
Sanchez 31 games to 14
That's not how stats work mateAlso, last season was clearly a bust for him, being injured for most of it, and being out of favour because of the contract situation, so he could never get a consistent run. Absolutely pointless using last season's stats. Over the course of his PL career he's regularly been excellent, end of.
So Toby's games which were plenty arent enough to say he isnt good enough, but Mina's couple of games in a 2nd string Barcelona team are enough to say he isnt good enough. I see how it is."Double Toby's numbers and add 5 if you want"
Also, last season was clearly a bust for him, being injured for most of it, and being out of favour because of the contract situation, so he could never get a consistent run. Absolutely pointless using last season's stats. Over the course of his PL career he's regularly been excellent, end of.
Over the course of his PL career he's been overrated.
It's the shockingly low number of interceptions that are telling ... he just had no pace at all and could not push up and win the ball higher up. That knee injury took it from him. Maybe he gets it back. Maybe he doesn't. But he has to have that "pop" he used to have to be what he once was (which was a fecking brilliant center half).Vertonghen played 36 games to Toby's 14. Double Toby's numbers and add 5 if you want
Also the player who outperformed and replaced him
Sanchez 31 games to 14
Funny a CB who is young and has so much pace averages just 1 interception per game and averages way too low tackles than Toby.
Btw Smalling averages more interceptions than both Spurs CBs. Except Lindelof and Rojo, every ManUtd CB averages more interceptions per 90 mins than Spurs CBs.
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The only relevant stat we need to be looking at
He has low interceptions because his role in the team isn't to press
https://www.footballwhispers.com/blog/how-toby-alderweireld-compares-europes-best
This is why taking stats out of context is a fool's errand
https://www.footballwhispers.com/blog/how-toby-alderweireld-compares-europes-best
This is why taking stats out of context is a fool's errand
Smalling does get a lot of stick on here, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone criticise his general ability in the air. Even those that don't rate him usually credit him with his ability in the air.
That will do me.
So we should sign another Chris Smalling type like Mina who is literally only useful at heading and not much else? or get extorted by Leicester for Maguire? I don't think the aerial part is our biggest weakness in defence. We need CB's who can pass through the lines more effectively and help our transitions, and an actual leader who can read the game and improve the defenders around him. For the money he would cost and the recent injury issues it may be a risk, but if we get Toby at his best he not only will comfortably be our best defender but one of the best in the league too.
So again because I know this place, I dont hate Toby and if we sign him then great because I think he can improve at United and do better than last season. But this stuff is why I'm very nervous about paying huge fees of £50 million+ for a 29 year old CB who's stats suggest would make our set piece defending, our main weakness, even worse.
So if we do pay £50 million+ I think its a big gamble. And to be honest I think Maguire would be less of one because he is good in the air and while he has his own issues with being caught up the pitch and out of position, he would surely improve us defensively from set pieces. So Toby is probably my 3rd choice out of the 3 unless he was quite cheap.
So if we do pay £50 million+ I think its a big gamble. And to be honest I think Maguire would be less of one because he is good in the air and while he has his own issues with being caught up the pitch and out of position, he would surely improve us defensively from set pieces. So Toby is probably my 3rd choice out of the 3 unless he was quite cheap.
Come on mate. Half of those are youngsters. Toby is a high profile defender not Alcides. Also you have missed Porto’s.
Pressers arent usually the interceptors, its the people who benefit from someone else pressing and making someone else play a pass thats not as safe or comfortable. Thats why it tends to start from the front
Stats wise Varane was among the worst CBs in the world cup.
In certain areas correct. Not in all. And his CB partner wasnt doing huge amounts more because they were in control of games a lot and didnt have a lot of defending to do.
Spurs on the other hand, Verthongen is getting through lots of work when partnered with Toby. And Sanchez (who replaces Toby in the team) while doing less than Verthongen still does a fair bit more than Toby. So not the same at all. The work is there to do, he just doesnt do as much
I'm a little nervous to hear all this talk that he's not that good in the air. That surely has to be the one key element for a centre back in England. Yes you need more than that, but it's not great if we're talking colossal fees.
He wa among lowest in tackles and interceptions per game. The very 2 stats you selected, same with Umtiti too and both had excellent world cup.
@RedNed77 has blown that argument to smithereens #2740
What makes you think i'm basing my opinion of Mina on games at the World Cup, we were scouting him @ Sante Fe and Palmeiras, remember thinking at the time the little I saw of him at club level that he looks a player but hope we don't sign him because he's got a shit name
, so yeah the club and I have been aware of him for a few years.It's all about opinions, and to be honest i'd be happy if any of the three are signed by teatime on Thursday now, if the price is right, but having a wee bit more confidence in our crocks and chancers than most on here, and still having high hopes for Axel and TFM it tickles me that so many are happy for the club to pay circa £60m for nothing more than a Steady Eddy who will probably be ready for the Travellers yard in two or three years than the other two when we are not obviously desperately short in that area.
Opinions eh, who'd have 'em ?
I didnt select them at all. I showed all the defensive stats listed and it was the aerial duels that concerns me since thats our weakness
Again if his partner isnt doing a lot of work either as you just said, thats because there isnt a lot of work to do. When the partner is doing loads of work and the player who came in and replaced Toby was also doing quite a lot, but Toby is the odd one out then thats not a good look. It shows there is work to do but he doesn't take responsibility to do it himself.
If signing Alderweireld, keep Smalling and pair them - perfectly balanced partnership. Big Mike is only disposable if Maguire also arrives to partner Toby.
I must be the only person who thinks Smalling is the weakest of our centre-backs, or at least one of the key culprits for our slow style of play and deep midfield.
Has there been any reliable papers/people reporting this is ON?
Seriously? Just look at Jose’s defensive record over the years and let’s have that conversation again@RedNed77 has blown that argument to smithereens #2740
What makes you think i'm basing my opinion of Mina on games at the World Cup, we were scouting him @ Sante Fe and Palmeiras, remember thinking at the time the little I saw of him at club level that he looks a player but hope we don't sign him because he's got a shit name
It's all about opinions, and to be honest i'd be happy if any of the three are signed by teatime on Thursday now, if the price is right, but having a wee bit more confidence in our crocks and chancers than most on here, and still having high hopes for Axel and TFM it tickles me that so many are happy for the club to pay circa £60m for nothing more than a Steady Eddy who will probably be ready for the Travellers yard in two or three years than the other two when we are not obviously desperately short in that area.
Opinions eh, who'd have 'em ?
Carvalho played 7 seasons at Chelsea, he also inherited Terry and the rest were brought as backup for less than 10m each. Paulo Fereira was also pretty useful signing, not to mention Ashley Cole and Belletti for 3-4m was it?
Next is Lucio who was absolute rock and vital for Inter in that treble year.
Zouma is the only "high profile" signing you can call it a failure over the years. You can't seriously compare Toby type of signing to bringing up some odd backup at 2-3m. It's like saying Fergie had a poor transfer record due to bringing guys like Dong and Ljajic, Tosic, etc..
Defensively our best, attackingly our worst. Difficult to get the right balance really.
Without him we look a shambles in the air, with him we slow our attack down too much.
Fereira came in as a record for a right back and nowhere near lived up to the hypeSeriously? Just look at Jose’s defensive record over the years and let’s have that conversation again
Carvalho played 7 seasons at Chelsea, he also inherited Terry and the rest were brought as backup for less than 10m each. Paulo Fereira was also pretty useful signing, not to mention Ashley Cole and Belletti for 3-4m was it?
Next is Lucio who was absolute rock and vital for Inter in that treble year.
Zouma is the only "high profile" signing you can call it a failure over the years. You can't seriously compare Toby type of signing to bringing up some odd backup at 2-3m. It's like saying Fergie had a poor transfer record due to bringing guys like Dong and Ljajic, Tosic, etc..
Right now, he's probably our strongest. He is the only one other than Lindelof who is consistently available for selection.
For me, the issue is that we can't put together a settled pairing even if we wanted to as Lindelof hasn't been trusted to this point and the other three never stay fit for long enough.
I don't think you're quite 'getting it'. You're trying to suggest Alderweireld is somehow terrible - and not by using evidence, but by trying to transpose statistics onto him. Not just valid statistics either, but absolutely useless ones.
Have you not stopped to think that the scenarios a player finds himself in (especially a defender) is a direct result of his team mates? If Sanchez and Vertonghen had to clear more balls, block more shots, and head more balls, it might have even the slightest to do with the mistakes that each other might have made when playing alongside each other?
Ekeke always does this with stats.
Apart from playing 50 games in his first season helping Chelsea win the title for first time in 50 years? Guess RvP was a shit signing for us also?
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No it doesn't work like that. Basic stats to compare CBs never works, go and check Mustafi's tackles and interceptions last season, he was among the best CBs as per stats but going by his performance he was among the worst. Using some stats to rate CB is just waste of time.
Matip played in the same team as Van Dijk, Matip averaged more interceptions and tackles per game, everyone knows who had good season and who was average.
Not to mention that Jarosik was a fecking centre midfielder!
Zouma looked the real deal until a serious injury too.
And that Bayern goal right there is a good example of why we're weak defending set plays in the air. De Gea isnt confident to come and Smalling cant win everything
There was no hype, just a big fee. Most people didn't have a clue who he was. He was a good signing and a terrific club servant (he's still at the club).
You aren't but seems that he's a darling around here and probably still considered one of the best CB's in the league.
aye, indeed. But let's even let Zouma slide as a bad signing and one that he didn't really brought in the first team. The rest are hardly something to beat him with.
Also Alex had a pretty good season at Hiddink from memory and was scored some important goals in the CL as well that year reaching the SF's.
He's a fast player. I think you're looking on the wrong direction to blame Smalling for our slow play and defending deep. We can have Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Lindelof in any combination, the style would be the same. We can have Baresi as CB, and our play would still be slow and defending deep.
Do you think if SAF had Smalling at CB, our play would be slow and defending deep?
I'm confident he'll bring us the attacking flair that we're missing.
I remember at the time he was being talked about as the best right back in world football, hence the big fee. He was up and down at Chelsea
I honestly have no opinion on this guy. We need a ball playing CB so, if he's good at that, then cool, but I'd much prefer Maguire.
I do think a ball playing CB will help our football. It'll give us more composure at the back when being pressed allowing us to play out from the back and hit them on the break with them having committed players to the high press instead of hoofing it aimlessly, it'll help us build-up quicker instead of passing sideways and dilly-dallying on the halfway line, t'll give more space to our CMs who come deep as the opposition will have to press our ball playing CB more instead of letting them have the ball as, with our other CBs, they know that they'll most likely do nothing with it, etc.
I do think a ball playing CB will help our football. It'll give us more composure at the back when being pressed allowing us to play out from the back and hit them on the break with them having committed players to the high press instead of hoofing it aimlessly, it'll help us build-up quicker instead of passing sideways and dilly-dallying on the halfway line, t'll give more space to our CMs who come deep as the opposition will have to press our ball playing CB more instead of letting them have the ball as, with our other CBs, they know that they'll most likely do nothing with it, etc.
I think Maguire is better than Smalling but I don't think Smalling is bad aerially - that's one of his biggest strengths. Probably his biggest, really. I actually think they'd make an alright partnership like Blind formed with him. Though, and I may be wrong on this, Smalling made a lot of substitute appearances at the end of games when we were shutting up shop, right? That probably contributed to his high stats in that regard. Still, I can't say I'm surprised. As highly as I rate Maguire aerially Smalling himself is very good, too.
Not needed. Our whole team are defenders.
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