Why the negativity against Ed and the Glazers? Sorry I don't follow

[Sultan]

The issue isn't that. Somehow, we have a squad in which our defenders cannot play football and our wingers cannot dribble. We have not been able to sell players either. In fact, our squad was so bad when mourinho came in, that de gea was the only guy that one could say should have been in the starting 11. Now we have reinforced and plugged a few gaps. However Woodward should have been able to decipher this, as any football person who knew the predicament of the squad under LVG would know. For me, since his role also includes selling players at value, woodward has done a poor job on the football side of things. His buys have been overpriced, with the ones under Moyes and Van Gaal being complete flops, his sales have been well below value, and the contracts handed have been shockingly high. He needs to focus on the finance side, and leave the negotiations to a new person.

I agree some of the decisions over the last 5 years transfer activity has been horrendous. I'm not sure who takes the blame, mind. Manager, coaches, scouts, or Woodward or the owners for employing someone in this position.

Maybe Woodward has learnt from his past mistakes?

 

[Rory 7]

Because having a good product (ie performing well and winning things) will enhance the brand and improve the revenue the business generates.

I’m sure Ed as someone who has worked in senior positions all his career realises that and doesn’t operate on a short term/all about profit approach - or to coin your phrase “fast buck driven outlook”

And what evidence do you have that Ed Woodward is taking a long term approach to management of United. Go on, I’d love to hear this. And just to remind you, Ed is the Executive Chairman who has had three different men in charge of the Football side of your favourite sports brand in the last five years. Go on, evidence of long term planning for the sporting side of things from your hero Ed...

 

[Class of 63]

At no time in the clubs History have we been able to compete for the very best players in the world, not even when we were winning doubles and trebles, yet now, thanks to the Glazers long-term vision for the club, and everybodies fall guy Ed Woodward we can, which considering we've been off the pace for the last 4/5 years in the Premier League and Champions League is a remarkable achievement from them, yet still they get grief......

 

[Rory 7]

At no time in the clubs History have we been able to compete for the very best players in the world, not even when we were winning doubles and trebles, yet now, thanks to the Glazers long-term vision for the club, and everybodies fall guy Ed Woodward we can, which considering we've been off the pace for the last 4/5 years in the Premier League and Champions League is a remarkable achievement from them, yet still they get grief......

Eh. Okay.

 

[wolvored]

How so? As I said, if we judge by what happened, we were breaking transfer records left and right before Chelsea and City figuratively existed. Edwards also didn't want to sell until the Rock of Gibraltar fiasco and before that his own stunts that forced him to resign as chairman. He actually refused before that a Murdoch bid. The club's revenues are all that is needed for us to compete with the billionaires. You think that money we invested in the past few years comes out of Glazer's pockets? Hell no. You're also completely forgetting how much money wise football has grown in these past 15 years. You can't compare football finances now for any club with what was then. Back then Real Madrid buying Zidane for 45 million pounds was considered as absurd as PSG buying Neymar for 200 million today. We were easily paying that kind of money under Edwards and co before the Glazer takeover.

We also didn't have an owner man, we were floating on the stock market. Many people held shares, billionaires, millionaires, whatever. There was not a single owner. And Glazers weren't rich at all, relatively speaking, they brought the club with loans with which they later used the club's finances to pay.


He didn't change the landscape, he made Chelsea as rich of a club as us, but that didn't stop our financial might. We could still buy anyone we wanted and we had plenty of money to do so before the Glazer takeover. With the difference that back then the "biggest club in the world" actually meant something apart from finances. Every player wanted to play for us, not Madrid. Now, apart from finances, there are a number of clubs that are far ahead of us in terms of reputation.

Edwards tried to sell the club in 1989 for 10 million to Michael knighton. Google it if you don't believe me. He tried to sell to sky in 2000 and always wanted shut of it.

 

[Sultan]

Football clubs are being milked from players to the very top. I'm sure many jobs are just created for friends by friends within the football fraternity. So many leeches must be on the take within clubs.

 

[Rory 7]

Football clubs are being milked from players to the very top. I'm sure many jobs are just created for friends by friends within the football fraternity. So many leeches must be on the take within clubs.

@Sultan I agree with you, languge like 'leech' is inflamatory. But just because some fans go OTT on language, it doesn't mean there isn't legitimate criticisms to be made of these owners.

 

[breakout67]

We are top 3 financially in the world but top 10-20 in the footballing world. This is to be expected because the Glazers are business owners and Woodward is a financial and marketing expert. According to the papers (which could be bollocks) the hierarchy said that Alderweireld was not an upgrade on our centre backs and the only player that would be an upgrade is Varane. Anyone that builds a defense based on 'Varane for £100m or no centre backs' is incompetent.

 

[Foxbatt]

Woodward I am sure knows that he is not an expert on football. So when the Manager wants to buy players he feels is necessary to improve the squad, the money was available Now when Jose wanted to buy players the money was made available. However, no responsible person is going to give a an open check book to anyone. I am sure if Jose can justify he needs a right back or a striker or a midfield player then the money would be made available. We bought Lukaku last season. We have bought 7 players since Jose arrived. That is more than half the team for sure. Then people clamour to give home grown players a chance so it is obvious that we cannot buy 11 players if that is so is the case. None of the home grown players has been able to hold down a regular place because they have not shown that they are better than the others.
When Manchester United wants to buy a player then the price of the player goes through the sky too.
The problem with Jose is not the players. No matter who comes in he will not change his style and that is where we get into problems. This current team is good enough to beat most of the teams in the PL on any day if they are properly coached and the tactics right. We even beat City last season.

 

[M Bison]

And what evidence do you have that Ed Woodward is taking a long term approach to management of United. Go on, I’d love to hear this. And just to remind you, Ed is the Executive Chairman who has had three different men in charge of the Football side of your favourite sports brand in the last five years. Go on, evidence of long term planning for the sporting side of things from your hero Ed...

As I said in my earlier post, you’re suggesting Ed is too thick to do his job, I don’t believe he is.

 

[Class of 63]

Eh. Okay.

Go on then, give me a time

 

[Foxbatt]

United offered 55 million for Aldeweireld. For someone who is free in 2019 and who is 29 plus that is a good price. Levy refused. He wanted Mata and Martial. United refused to sell Martial. So that is how that deal fell through. Leicester asked 75 for Maguire. That is also a ridiculous amount.

 

[Rory 7]

As I said in my earlier post, you’re suggesting Ed is too thick to do his job, I don’t believe he is.

I never used any such language about his ability to 'do his job'. I think you seem a little confused about what is job is. I suggested he is clueless on what is needed to deliver sporting success for a football club. And the reason I believe that is he is fixated on the short-term and quick fixes. His managerial appointments and performance on transfers all point to how out of his depth he is on this front. Ed is an investment banker, a marketing guy. He's in the role of Exec Chairman of one of the worlds biggest football clubs for just over five years. I don't think he has shown any vision or strategic clarity on what he wants United (the football club), to be. I'm sure the owners love him, he's doing a great job for them. But I'm a football fan. Ed has done next to nothing for me.

 

[tjb]

I agree some of the decisions over the last 5 years transfer activity has been horrendous. I'm not sure who takes the blame, mind. Manager, coaches, scouts, or Woodward or the owners for employing someone in this position.

Maybe Woodward has learnt from his past mistakes?

The problem for me with the club over the past 5 years has been with the negotiations. Where other clubs make signings and sales seem easy, we make them seem impossible. Of all the clubs in the top 6 not named arsenal, we were the one that needed the most work done by 2016. We flopped in replacing the back 4, and have still not rectified the mistakes. We allowed agents and players ( di maria mostly) to fleece us. Its only with Mourinho that our squad looks anything like it did under Fergie, and due to the rapid inflation in the transfer market, it exaggerated the amount the man has spent. He is still paying the price for the incompetence of the club prior to his arrival, and this is why he consistently makes it clear that these players are not the type he is used to. Its so bad now, normal managers can afford to make a mistake or two in the market, but because of how bad we were before he came, and how much money we had spent, and the inflation in the market, each signing he makes is being dissected. For me, Lindelof and Mhikitaryan are the only two flops he has had.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Of course it’s the point, if Jose wanted Toby here but the numbers don’t stack up, then it’s not the right thing to do.

How does that relate to Ed Woodward supporting Jose?

 

[wolvored]

Woodward I am sure knows that he is not an expert on football. So when the Manager wants to buy players he feels is necessary to improve the squad, the money was available Now when Jose wanted to buy players the money was made available. However, no responsible person is going to give a an open check book to anyone. I am sure if Jose can justify he needs a right back or a striker or a midfield player then the money would be made available. We bought Lukaku last season. We have bought 7 players since Jose arrived. That is more than half the team for sure. Then people clamour to give home grown players a chance so it is obvious that we cannot buy 11 players if that is so is the case. None of the home grown players has been able to hold down a regular place because they have not shown that they are better than the others.
When Manchester United wants to buy a player then the price of the player goes through the sky too.
The problem with Jose is not the players. No matter who comes in he will not change his style and that is where we get into problems. This current team is good enough to beat most of the teams in the PL on any day if they are properly coached and the tactics right. We even beat City last season.

agree with the last bit. Any other coach could get a good tune out of the players but mou is incapable of this due to his stubbornness of playing to the players strengths instead of his tactics which ain't working

 

[M Bison]

I never used any such language about his ability to 'do his job'. I think you seem a little confused about what is job is. I suggested he is clueless on what is needed to deliver sporting success for a football club. And the reason I believe that is he is fixated on the short-term and quick fixes. His managerial appointments and performance on transfers all point to how out of his depth he is on this front. Ed is an investment banker, a marketing guy. He's in the role of Exec Chairman of one of the worlds biggest football clubs for just over five years. I don't think he has shown any vision or strategic clarity on what he wants United (the football club), to be. I'm sure the owners love him, he's doing a great job for them. But I'm a football fan. Ed has done next to nothing for me.

Ed isn’t a marketing guy, he’s a chartered accountant and former investment banker. He’s in charge of running a business, the business just happens to be in sport and as such, needs to understand the product in order to make it a success.

Anyone appointed to run a business would typically look at the longer term (3-5 years) in order to maximise returns, not just the near term.

Let’s agree to disagree anyway, we’re not going to agree!

 

[Rory 7]

Go on then, give me a time

Robson 1980
Keane 1993
Van Nistelrooy 1997
Stam 1998
Ferdinand 2002
Veron 2002
Rooney 2004

Yeah, you're right. We could never compete for the best players in the world

 

[M Bison]

Robson 1980
Keane 1993
Van Nistelrooy 1997
Stam 1998
Ferdinand 2002
Veron 2002
Rooney 2004

Yeah, you're right. We could never compete for the best players in the world

We agree on this at least

 

[Rory 7]

We agree on this at least

I don't we disagree as much as you might think. I'm not criticising the Glazers on lack of investment of lack of financial nous. I'm criticising their lack of vision for where they want the sports side of their 'business' is going.

 

[Class of 63]

Robson 1980
Keane 1993
Van Nistelrooy 1997
Stam 1998
Ferdinand 2002
Veron 2002
Rooney 2004

Yeah, you're right. We could never compete for the best players in the world

Impressive list, we could do with one or two of them now, but how many of them were the very best, and not just potentially the best in the World at the time of their signing which is the point I was making, I don't recall Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and the like competing for their services at the time either.

 

[JPRouve]

Robson 1980
Keane 1993
Van Nistelrooy 1997
Stam 1998
Ferdinand 2002
Veron 2002
Rooney 2004

Yeah, you're right. We could never compete for the best players in the world

For what it's worth they were the biggest shareholders when we bought Rooney.

 

[Christie]

Again you’re guessing without knowing any of the facts and basing what you’re saying on media reports that have very little substance. All we know is Ed didn’t agree with Jose on his targets and the prices quoted, which is a perfectly reasonable approach from Ed. If Ed did pull the plug on Toby and Maguire at the prices reported in the media, I think he made the right call.

In regards the final point, at no point did I say we’re skint, I said the numbers didn’t work which is something completely different!

So if you don't know any facts and are guessing and basing what you’re saying on media reports that have very little substance, why are you so sure Mourinho is at fault and Ed is making the right call? Why can't you defend Mourinho and examine Ed as well, since you have no idea what is going on anyway?

The inability to make the numbers work clearly means we are skint. We have been priced out of the market and are unable to compete with what little money with have.

Can people please stop ignoring this glaringly obvious point?

The Glazers have been anything but tightfisted when it comes to transfer market expenditure, this point has been made on numerous occasions throughout this thread yet people insist on suggesting otherwise. So annoying.

Yes you are right. The quote itself clearly states we have spent a great deal, second only to City and thus we have finished second. But somehow, people just aren't satisfied when we perform up to expectations.

If you want to compete, you need to spend close to the the top clubs have done which we did not do since the last few years of Fergie.

Because having a good product (ie performing well and winning things) will enhance the brand and improve the revenue the business generates.

I’m sure Ed as someone who has worked in senior positions all his career realises that and doesn’t operate on a short term/all about profit approach - or to coin your phrase “fast buck driven outlook”

Yes Ed is smarter than you think. He clearly knows spending to compete isn't worth the money. Thus he is now going for the "Value for money Top 4 approach", which is similar to what Arsenal had adopted. However that isn't what Mourinho has signed up for and what the fans will stand for as well.

 

[Rory 7]

Impressive list, we could do with one or two of them now, but how many of them were the very best, and not just potentially the best in the World at the time of their signing which is the point I was making, I don't recall Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and the like competing for their services at the time either.

different times.

United always competed at the top table. The amount of signings from overseas coming to England were few and far between until the PL years. United have done pretty well at signing the best in the world. We even did pretty well at spotting the best in the world a youth level, look no further than Ronaldo for example. And lets not forget Fergie didn't pursue Zidane! There's one that got away. During that same period I only recall a handful of 'sagas' where we 'missed out' on world stars we supposedly wanted. Batistuta was a recurrent link. As was Wesley S. We've only started losing out regularly in recent years. Spot the link?

 

[Rory 7]

For what it's worth they were the biggest shareholders when we bought Rooney.

credit where credit is due. The leeches

 

[HoopsMcCann]

If there were hugely talented players available that would be an obvious upgrade to what we have, I'm sure we'd be signing them.

My totally baseless thought is RM and MUFC kept their powder dry this summer in order to break the bank for Neymar and Mbappe next summer.

 

[HoopsMcCann]

Go on then, give me a time

The world cup winner who broke the transfer fee record 3 years ago? Dude's still in the team. Captain in the first 2 matches.

 

[Revan]

Robson 1980
Keane 1993
Van Nistelrooy 1997
Stam 1998
Ferdinand 2002
Veron 2002
Rooney 2004

Yeah, you're right. We could never compete for the best players in the world

That is a combination of British/Irish talent, and young players with high potential. Neither of them, bar possibly Veron was anywhere close to best in the world when we signed them. Veron best comparison would be Di Maria.

To be fair, it ain't that it has changed very much under Glazers considering that only Pogba came as what was considered a genuine world class player (Sanchez to a lesser degree), but at least we have been trying with the likes of Griezmann and Bale, while before the likes of Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo or even Batistuta (who was playing for Fiorentina) were totally out of our reach.

 

[JPRouve]

credit where credit is due. The leeches

One thing about your list and I believe that it was the point of the original poster. 4 players were british and bought relatively young, 2 came from Netherland from clubs with little financial power or ability to retain good players and Veron. While United was able to attract top young talents, the club has seldomly be a destination for WC talents in their prime, our strategy was to target talent and make stars. The previous PLC wage structure was probably the reason for that though.

 

[Rory 7]

That is a combination of British/Irish talent, and young players with high potential. Neither of them, bar possibly Veron was anywhere close to best in the world when we signed them. Veron best comparison would be Di Maria.

To be fair, it ain't that it has changed very much under Glazers considering that only Pogba came as what was considered a genuine world class player (Sanchez to a lesser degree), but at least we have been trying with the likes of Griezmann and Bale, while before the likes of Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo or even Batistuta (who was playing for Fiorentina) were totally out of our reach.

And was anyone else in England buying the 'best in the world' when we were buying Keane, Ferdinand, Stam and RVN? I don't think so. It was really only when Chelski got their windfall that we saw English clubs seriously pursuing established global stars. Not fair to claim United weren't at the top table in transfers during the peak years of Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo or Batistuta; established 'stars' like that coming to England is a new phenomenon. We clearly were top dogs in Britain and more than punched above our weight when needed, we could always compete for the best when needed.

 

[Rory 7]

One thing about your list and I believe that it was the point of the original poster. 4 players were british and bought relatively young, 2 came from Netherland from clubs with little financial power or ability to retain good players and Veron. While United was able to attract top young talents, the club has seldomly be a destination for WC talents in their prime, our strategy was to target talent and make stars. The previous PLC wage structure was probably the reason for that though.

I agree. But you've just re-confirmed my original point. We had a strategy. Now, we don't....

 

[JPRouve]

And was anyone else in England buying the 'best in the world' when we were buying Keane, Ferdinand, Stam and RVN? I don't think so. It was really only Chelski got their windfall that we saw English clubs seriously pursuing established global stars. Not fair to claim United weren't at the top table in transfers during the peak years of Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo or Batistuta; established 'stars' like that coming to England is a new phenomenon. We clearly were top dogs in Britain and more than punched above our weight when needed, we could always compete for the best when needed.

Arsenal? During that period of time, they purchased the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Vieira, Pires and many others.

 

[MDFC Manager]

I don't we disagree as much as you might think. I'm not criticising the Glazers on lack of investment of lack of financial nous. I'm criticising their lack of vision for where they want the sports side of their 'business' is going.

I think that's a fair summary. Hiring 3 duds in a row hasn't helped in the slightest.

 

[Class of 63]

different times.

United always competed at the top table. The amount of signings from overseas coming to England were few and far between until the PL years. United have done pretty well at signing the best in the world. We even did pretty well at spotting the best in the world a youth level, look no further than Ronaldo for example. And lets not forget Fergie didn't pursue Zidane! There's one that got away. During that same period I only recall a handful of 'sagas' where we 'missed out' on world stars we supposedly wanted. Batistuta was a recurrent link. As was Wesley S. We've only started losing out regularly in recent years. Spot the link?

We didn't miss out on many we wanted because we knew what market we were shopping in, Harrods was for the financial elite, but we're slowly getting there.

 

[Rory 7]

Arsenal? During that period of time, they purchased the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Vieira, Pires and many others.

Bergkamp had been struggling in Italy I think and pre-dated Wenger. Henry was a failure at Juve. Vieria was underage talent as was Pires. I thought the OP point was about established global stars. None of these were at the time Arsenal signed them.

United didn't compete for 'established global stars' because we didn't need to. We were top dogs in England so we competed for the best players, in line with our strategy, to dominate England and in turn Europe. It was a genunine plan and recruitment strategy. It worked. Times have changed. Now the guys in charge are throwing money at our problems in a pretty random ramshakle way. How people can say these owners are good for the club is beyond me. Just because they've been brilliant at revenue generation and splashed the cash on Pogba doesn't make them worthwhile to me. Interestingly Fred is now in our top ten transfers. Amazing when you think about it and evidence again of just how things have changed.

 

[M Bison]

So if you don't know any facts and are guessing and basing what you’re saying on media reports that have very little substance, why are you so sure Mourinho is at fault and Ed is making the right call? Why can't you defend Mourinho and examine Ed as well, since you have no idea what is going on anyway?

I'm not blaming Jose for anything, which is why i dont feel the need to defend him. If Ed disagreed with Jose's proposed signings thats a perfectly reasonable thing to do in his role. Neither are wrong, thats just life/work.

The inability to make the numbers work clearly means we are skint. We have been priced out of the market and are unable to compete with what little money with have.

No it doesnt - it means we dont want to overpay! The same way you probably wouldnt pay £5 for a milky bar, the numbers dont work!

Yes Ed is smarter than you think. He clearly knows spending to compete isn't worth the money. Thus he is now going for the "Value for money Top 4 approach", which is similar to what Arsenal had adopted. However that isn't what Mourinho has signed up for and what the fans will stand for as well.

Again, you're guessing and basing this assumption on nothing. We've spent a fortune in recent years, far more than Arsenal, so I dont believe this top 4 claim to be the case but the only fact i can go on is the level of investment in recent years.

 

[Christie]

Woodward I am sure knows that he is not an expert on football. So when the Manager wants to buy players he feels is necessary to improve the squad, the money was available Now when Jose wanted to buy players the money was made available. However, no responsible person is going to give a an open check book to anyone. I am sure if Jose can justify he needs a right back or a striker or a midfield player then the money would be made available. We bought Lukaku last season. We have bought 7 players since Jose arrived. That is more than half the team for sure. Then people clamour to give home grown players a chance so it is obvious that we cannot buy 11 players if that is so is the case. None of the home grown players has been able to hold down a regular place because they have not shown that they are better than the others.
When Manchester United wants to buy a player then the price of the player goes through the sky too.
The problem with Jose is not the players. No matter who comes in he will not change his style and that is where we get into problems. This current team is good enough to beat most of the teams in the PL on any day if they are properly coached and the tactics right. We even beat City last season.

I'm sure it is so hard to justify that we needed new full backs, wingers and a CB. Most of the forums can see it, but somehow it is so hard to make a case. Or do you agree with Ed that our CBs and FBs and Wingers are good enough to win the league?

Jose clearly identified and justified the areas that needed improvement. Most of the forum here can agree with that. The reason why this discussion exists is that money is not made available for it. The CEO even came down to say that the targets were not an improvement to what we have and only Varane was worth it!

But sure, keep blaming Jose. Just get a new head coach, the new guy will certainly bring this team to over 100 points in the league with our fantastic team.

United offered 55 million for Aldeweireld. For someone who is free in 2019 and who is 29 plus that is a good price. Levy refused. He wanted Mata and Martial. United refused to sell Martial. So that is how that deal fell through. Leicester asked 75 for Maguire. That is also a ridiculous amount.

Aside from the fact that the figures and deals are completely made up (we did not even bid for Alderweireld), the fact that you think the amounts are ridiculous means we have clearly been priced out. Liverpool just bought a CB for 75 million and a keeper for 65 million. Chelsea just bought a keeper for 75 million. That is the going rate for players now. If you think those amounts are ridiculous than it clearly means we cannot afford to build a top squad as that is too ridiculous an aim for us.

If Liverpool laughed at paying 75 million for a CB and 65 million for a keeper we'd be be breathing a sigh of relief now instead of melting down.

 

[Rory 7]

We didn't miss out on many we wanted because we knew what market we were shopping in, Harrods was for the financial elite, but we're slowly getting there.

We didn't miss out on many because we didn't need to pursue many. We had a plan for the football side of things that was hugely successful. Thats all gone now. It ended, with no plan to continue it, the day SAF left. Thats the tradegy of the Glazers regime. No plan, no vision and no end in sight. Depressing.

 

[Class of 63]

The world cup winner who broke the transfer fee record 3 years ago? Dude's still in the team. Captain in the first 2 matches.

You do realise you're backing up my argument don't you ?

 

[MDFC Manager]

The fact that we're no longer the number one destination for British/Irish talent is a major concern. Fergie would have got Kane 3 seasons ago.