Pogba: "We Should Attack, Attack, Attack!"
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If Pogba made those comments under Ferguson then everyone would think he lost his mind. We didn't parked the bus under SAF.
He had a go because of how he was training. It says it in the article you posted. The Alice band was the straw. The training was the reason SAF was balling him out which led to the Alice band.
It is all about ego clashing with each other. Personally, the more I think about it, I see no real serious issues with what Pogba said.
We have all been saying this and many players have said it about their teams over and over again.
I swear, every week I hear players doing half time or full time interviews saying " we should have done this, we should have done that" in a way that contradicted their coach's tactics.
It never raised nearly the same amount of controversy.
The big difference is the "I'm not the manager but...", that's something that you seldomly hear or read. To me he clearly targeted the manager which is not something that you do in normal circumstance, so there is only two options either the situation isn't normal or Pogba is a moron.
Do you understand that the following is a general remark that applies to our current Pogba situation? Let me mark Fergie's conclusion in red again, it might help you understand what he is saying.
“My message would have been familiar to board members who knew me. The minute a Manchester United player thought he was bigger than the manager, he had to go. I used to say, 'The moment the manager loses his authority, you don't have a club. The players will be running it, and then you're in trouble.'”
Let me help you a little more:
"Ferguson said Beckham’s refusal to accept he had let down the team by not tracking back properly for one of the goals – and the fact details of the boot incident quickly appeared in the press – led to the United manager telling the board he had to go."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...thought-he-was-bigger-than-Alex-Ferguson.html
He criticised the manager in the press, answering every version of "why is the team so bad" with "it's because of X but I can't change it because I'm not the manager". That is unacceptable behaviour.
He had his ego bruised and fired back with the easiest possible target - the agenda the media has been pushing for years with Mourinho.
United tried to attack vs Wolves. They just did it really badly.
One of the reasons United can't "attack, attack, attack" is because they have to play 2 defensive midfielders behind Pogba because he is too important to do any defensive work.
When he gets dispossessed, costing the team a goal, because he has no options to play forward, maybe he should think about why that is.
It's really no coincide that after messing up in midfield and costing us a goal by being too adventurous that he came out with this. If he was restrained from attacking he'd have never attempted what he did.
Nothing but diversionary tactics from Pogba.
Nothing but diversionary tactics from Pogba.
He has always been a moron, no doubt about it
I agree in general, but if you read what he said about attacking, hes actually talking about the lack of movement and options and putting the opposition in trouble. United didn't attack in his mind or most peoples mind, they just had a lot of the ball and did feck all with it
The only bad thing he's said is the "It's not me" part. It shouldn't have come out from the vice captain. Paul's immature and he's slipped in a press interview. These things happen, yet it's a completely different story when u have a manager who's maturity almost matches that of his young and egoistical players. He should be the guy to manage his players from psychological point of view, but it doesn't feel like that at all. Jose's temperament triumphs rationality and that's a hell of an issue.
Well, one of the main reasons for the lack of options is because he basically demanded to play left of a 3 in a 4-3-3 so he only has 3 offensive targets. As a 2 in a 4-2-3-1 he would have more options.
But that would involve him putting in a defensive shift. It's his best position. He played really well there in the summer. But it's not glitzy enough for him so he won't do it.
That's strange considering no one at Juve or France had ever questioned Pogba's commitment. Could it be that Mou has mismanaged him? Lately he seems to struggle with players with talent (Mkhitaryan, Sanchez, Pogba, Martial and Rashford) while faring better with workhorses who do the donkey work (Lukaku, Lingard, Fellaini, Matic etc). Which kind of explains why at Real they were happy to see him gone while he got sacked at Chelsea. Who knows maybe his next vocation will be to make Burnley special again.
Very short sighted but predictable.
Its not about the number of players but the lack of movement, whether its a 433 4231 352 its always the same and I wasn't even talking about options for Pogba I was talking about United attacking in general
Are you serious? Pogba's form for France and his relationship with Deschamps had been very poor before the world cup. It's amazing how quickly everyone seems to forget that.
Either way, I'm not defending Mourinho. Pogba is responsible for his own behaviour and it was disgraceful. He now has to leave which is exactly what he wants.
You were talking about Pogba's comments, the comments that included "it's not me" over and over again. He was very clearly pointing the finger at others.
I agree that the movement in United's attack is a massive weakness whatever the system or whether Pogba is in the team or not. But it is more of an issue if you have fewer numbers in offensive areas. As a key creative player in the team (and someone who has had an impact on the shape of that team), Pogba is not entitled to point fingers and take no responsibility.
Unlike Mou, Didier was able to take the best out of the player. Pogba might or might not need to leave. However Id rather see how he'll act under a manager whose previous 2 employees weren't happy to see his back. Someone who can rally the troops and actually beat a Championship club at home
Deschamps and Pogba have always had a very good relationship, there isn't a point where it was very poor despite his performances.
@CA_vampire you're being quite selective and picking only things that suit your narrative, completely ignoring the things that have greatly contributed to Pogba's recent demeanour, those being Mourinho's antics from day 1.
You're trying to draw parallels between SAF whom in his 27 years as a manager has never disrespected the club the way Mourinho did in his 2 years with us.
You're trying to draw parallels between SAF whom in his 27 years as a manager has never disrespected the club the way Mourinho did in his 2 years with us.
Honestly I think this goes as far back to that everton game we won last season, Jose was comfortable with the 4231, and despite the fact that mhiki wasplaying poorly he could still combine well with Lukaku. Pogba was the lead proponent in forcing a formation switch, cause " he needed cover to attack". We barely won any games playing 433 last season. Lukaku is not like Zlatan offensively and would rather stay closer to goal than drop deeper. He plays better won supported by a strike partner or number 10. Another factor is the defence. With Carrick in a 433, his passing ability and composure on the ball allowed him to be the main helper of relieving the defence of possession, Matic is not like Carrick and is a more proactive aggressive DM than one that just sits back. Pogba basically shifted the functions that were working to suit himself, and even these factors has not improved his attitude to defend.
You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is wrong. Mourinho did not disrespect our club, that's bulls-hit.
Also, in this thread we are discussing what Pogba said to the press, that " ... he is not the manager ... " ... but if he was, he'd do something else. That's disrespect to the manager.
But you are right in one aspect, we cannot find any exact parallels with Fergie because if a player in Fergie's time was such a moron as to say something like that to the press, he'd never come close to the first team or the training grounds ever again! Mourinho has shown too much patience compared to Fergie.
Uhm so Pogba saying he's not the manager is him disrespecting him but Mourinho throwing players under the bus whilst protecting his favourites, flirting with PSG, insulting legends, disrespecting the club with his post Sevilla comments, criticism of everyone and everything, undermining higher-ups with his constant moaning about the transfers, never ever taking any responsibility amongst the other things.
Do you think that maybe Mourinho's own antics have contributed to Pogba being more chatty than usual?
Fergie
A player is a player and the manager is the boss. In a ship, a sailor is a sailor and a captain is the captain. They are not equal.
I don't know why it is so hard for some of you to understand this. Have you ever worked in your life? Did you have a manager? a boss above you?
It is the third time I will quote SAF, but some people just cannot understand. Please read the following carefully. It is a GENERAL statement for all clubs and all situations between players and managers:
“My message would have been familiar to board members who knew me. The minute a Manchester United player thought he was bigger than the manager, he had to go. I used to say, 'The moment the manager loses his authority, you don't have a club. The players will be running it, and then you're in trouble.'”
Uhm so Pogba saying he's not the manager is him disrespecting him but Mourinho throwing players under the bus whilst protecting his favourites, flirting with PSG, insulting legends, disrespecting the club with his post Sevilla comments, criticism of everyone and everything, undermining higher-ups with his constant moaning about the transfers, never ever taking any responsibility amongst the other things.
Do you think that maybe Mourinho's own antics have contributed to Pogba being more chatty than usual?
A player is a player and the manager is the boss. In a ship, a sailor is a sailor and a captain is the captain. They are not equal.
I don't know why it is so hard for some of you to understand this. Have you ever worked in your life? Did you have a manager? a boss above you?
It is the third time I will quote SAF, but some people just cannot understand. Please read the following carefully. It is a GENERAL statement for all clubs and all situations between players and managers:
“My message would have been familiar to board members who knew me. The minute a Manchester United player thought he was bigger than the manager, he had to go. I used to say, 'The moment the manager loses his authority, you don't have a club. The players will be running it, and then you're in trouble.'”
Pogba might not be the brightest in the world. We did attack, just not very well. We were also shambolic at defending and he was the player that lost the ball and didn't track back when we conceded.
It's quite a danger sign when a player thinks like a fan regarding tactics, how easy are they to predict during the game then?
It's quite a danger sign when a player thinks like a fan regarding tactics, how easy are they to predict during the game then?
attack attack attack? OUTRAGEOUS statement by Pogba.
This is a man driven to succeed with United and have us be the menacing red devils we once were. He knows that's not going to happen with Mourinho and he's not going to just lay down and take it. I'm with him.
This is a man driven to succeed with United and have us be the menacing red devils we once were. He knows that's not going to happen with Mourinho and he's not going to just lay down and take it. I'm with him.
But you need to explain how is Pogba saying "he's not the manager" a suggestion he's bigger than the club and the manager?
If we're going by the hierarchy than Mourinho should have been sacked for all the pressure he was putting on Woodward with his daily moaning about transfers.
'We need to add to our squad, I gave the list to Woodward 8 months ago, why are players not here you need to ask Mr. Woodward' and the other things he said, is this not him undermining Woodward?
Before the world cup Deschamps really struggled to get good performances from Pogba and was widely criticised for it. The ironic thing is that he eventually got the best out of Pogba in a role Jose wanted him to play but Pogba didn't want to play in at United.
I doubt he really thinks like a fan. "Attack, attack, attack" was just appealing to the lowest common denominator.
In few words Didier succeeded were Mourinho failed.
Look I am willing to give Mou the benefit of the doubt IF Pogba was the only players he had issue with. As said, Pogba has never had any issues with Juventus or France. Yet, he's the sort of player you need to build a squad around. So one can understand if managers ends up losing patience with him, although tbf Conte did took the best of the boy and character wise he makes the likes of Mourinho look like cuddly teletubbies.
However these issues aren't reserved to just Pogba. Mou went very hard on Shaw in the past with rumours of him turning Everton down this summer forcing Mou's hand to keep him. The gaffer has also issues with Martial and Woodward. Meanwhile DDG was set to sign a new contract but everything went cold on that side and Sanchez and Rashford's performances had nosedived under him. Out of the 10 signings he already made Mou had burnt bridges with 2 (Mkhitaryan and Pogba) and he seem losing interest in another 2 (Bailly and Lindelof) as he's quite determined to add a new CB to the team. That's 40% of the transfers made. Meanwhile his assistant left him, he had arguments with his former doctor Eva Carniero and his relationship with Emenalo are known to be tense.
We're also talking here about a guy who lost the dressing room at Chelsea and there's every chance he did the same at Real too. So I really wonder if he's mismanaging Pogba and Martial in the same way he did with De Bruyne, Lukaku and Salah. Imagine what sort of team Chelsea would have had with those around.
TBF he seem to have the support of the grafters ie the Valencias, the Lingards, the Fellainis and of course Matic. However, he need to understand that we're Manchester United. Our aim is to seriously compete for the CL not to bully ourselves in remaining in the EPL. So seriously, if he can't handle the talented players anymore then maybe its time for him to move to a club were these sort of players are somehow rare. I suggest Stoke would be the right fit. He might even be able to take his beloved Lindelof and Fellaini with him if he asks nicely.
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This is a good assessment. It's bigger than Jose v. Pogba, has been for a long time. It's just that Pogba is the "star" so it makes more headlines. If this was out of character for Jose to lose the dressing room i'd have more patience, but it's exactly his character. So it will not get any better. We knew this "could" happen but hoped it wouldn't. Guess what...it has. So now we need to be smart and move on.
These posts are the most sensible I've seen on this but also kind of highlight Mourinho's failings. He just doesn't seem to command the respect required of the players to instill this kind of high end mentality, and he continues to pick and play Pogba in spite of the numerous times he has been undermined and the numerous times Pogba's performances have stunk of him not putting the need of the team before his own ambitions.
Pogba has been a bone of contention for a long while for me and one thing I know is that with Ferguson, if a player wasn't getting the message and was acting up, he wouldn't be picking them week after week or trying to fit the rest of his team around them. They would have to be our best player every game for him to tolerate even a fraction of it.
Pogba even as a teenager wasn't prepared to listen to Ferguson so I suspect I can guess how things would have ended there.
The idea of a player telling Ferguson via the media how to manage his team is completely laughable.
Rooney tried this with the "lack of ambition" stuff and Ferguson most certainly did criticise him in public, at some length, and I believe news was not so accidentally leaked out of Rooney having to issue a grovelling apology to Ferguson and the entire team afterwards...and this is Rooney, who at this point had been a key part of a succesful team for a number of years so actually had some leverage to play with. Not someone like Pogba who's turned up and fannied around for a bit without really proving anything to anyone.
If Pogba had tried this under Fergie I suspect you'd just not have seen him in a United shirt again...and by "this" I probably just mean the refusing to do what his manager asked against Tottenham, because there would certainly have been zero tolerance from Ferguson for any more bullshit after that, IF that wasn't the last straw in itself.
The difference betwween this and Mourinho currently for me is that Sir Alex commanded such a hiigh level of winning mentality from the players, that when something like this did happen he could easily slap it down or if it came to it get rid of the player. Mourinho on the other hand is having to resort to things like moaning in the program notes about players not trying hard enough...as if he is looking for support from elsewhere to help bring them in line.
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He absolutely is not and giving him a more withdrawn disciplined role is how Deschamps got the best out of him. He's just not consistent enough to build a team around.
Agree. The myth of building a team around him needs to stop. United is actually built around Pogba and it's not working. We got some few brilliant games from him followed by a disastrous game and our form is affected by it. He was just part of the croup in Juve and now in France. That's how they succeeded.
You can't build a team around someone as inconsistent and frustrating as Pogba. Build a team around Ronaldo, and he will score you +40 goals a season and bring you CL. Build one around Messi, and you will get 30-40 goals plus loads of assists and league titles. Build a team around Pogba and you will get the likes of Wolves matches a lot. We shouldn't build a team around. Should just be part of the croup. If you're building your team around a player, he must be consistent as hell.
Agreed. Nobody can build a team around a midfield player. If you look in history the top midfielders are always part of teams with strong attack also. Here we don't have that so there's no point.
I agree with this. His biggest weakness is his ability to get the squad on his side. When something like this happens the rest of the squad are as likely to side with the player (despite his disgraceful behaviour) as the manager.
It's hard to argue with those who say he's brought it on himself with the public criticism of players. I think he struggles to identify with the modern player.
If he's going to behave that way he either needs incredibly strong leadership above him at the club or be very successful. He hasn't had either of those. The disharmony has been very obvious since January and the best chance this season was a flying start.
It's extremely disappointing to hear that Pogba is going to play this weekend. The club needs to take a strong stance and putting him in the reserves until Christmas is their best play.
Martial and pogba were immense that game they haven’t played those positions since .
If we are going to stay with the Mourinho style 4-3-3 we have been playing the last year or so I am going to argue that Pogbas best position would be at No6.
Pogbas strengths are to be on the ball as much as possible with as many options in front of him as possible. Under Mourinho thats only going to happen if he plays in a double pivot or alone as a No6. Now we seem stuck on one No6 and if so: thats where Pogba should play IMO.
Mourinho doesnt commit players in front of the ball as other more "offensive" managers do. It means that Pogba usually has between 1-3 players in front of him when we do get the ball to him in the No8 position, which happens to seldom to begin with. Its a hard ask from him to create something from those prerequsites. It really is.
Its something compeltely different to play as an No8 in Barca and/or City where he would have 5-6 players in front of him in that position.
If I were Mourinho, I would put him at No6, give him the armband and ask him to prove himself. If he doesnt and Mourinho stays, Im sad to admit that he has no place in the team.
Im not Mourinho though, and its of course never going to happen.
Pogba is always going to be wasted in a Mourinho team used the way he is being used now though.
Pogbas strengths are to be on the ball as much as possible with as many options in front of him as possible. Under Mourinho thats only going to happen if he plays in a double pivot or alone as a No6. Now we seem stuck on one No6 and if so: thats where Pogba should play IMO.
Mourinho doesnt commit players in front of the ball as other more "offensive" managers do. It means that Pogba usually has between 1-3 players in front of him when we do get the ball to him in the No8 position, which happens to seldom to begin with. Its a hard ask from him to create something from those prerequsites. It really is.
Its something compeltely different to play as an No8 in Barca and/or City where he would have 5-6 players in front of him in that position.
If I were Mourinho, I would put him at No6, give him the armband and ask him to prove himself. If he doesnt and Mourinho stays, Im sad to admit that he has no place in the team.
Im not Mourinho though, and its of course never going to happen.
Pogba is always going to be wasted in a Mourinho team used the way he is being used now though.
Maybe the term 'building a squad around him' is inappropriate. However he does need the right sort of players around him. Conte did that with Pirlo and Vidal. The former provided great vision to the game and didn't mind helping in the dirty work. Meanwhile the latter provided, energy and muscle to the game. That allowed Pogba to play a more relax role ie were he had the time and space to express himself better. That game is what convinced United and Real to engage into a bidding competition to get him.
Pogba thrive in a team were there's plenty of movement going. Which might explain why he's struggling in Mou's rigid and defensive system.
So, Deschamps replicated the Pirlo/Vidal dynamic and gave him a relaxed role? You're right, Kante and Pirlo are like peas in a pod.
Or maybe, is it possible that Pogba just got his head in the game over a shorter tournament format and put the required effort in, in a central midfield position?
Could it also be that at Juve, he was a young kid trying to earn his spot whereas he thinks he's king shit at United where he dictates his exact position and the team's formation so he doesn't have to do much leg work whenever he doesn't feel like it?
The case of no Fred while he scored in the last league match and had a very good game is more astonishing than Perreira's case