Poppies and remembrance at football matches

[jontheblue]

Anyone with access to catch up should watch the Antiques Roadshow from last Sunday which I got round to watching last night. It's not a normal antiques roadshow episode. It's all about stories of war heroes from WW1 being the 100th anniversary of that war ending. Typically each segment is a family member with medals and some photos telling the story of that particular individual. No values whatsoever as they thought it would be tasteless to do so. It's the very essence of the poppy appeal - a really worthwhile watch.

The most difficult thing for me to stomach was the description of how once an end to the war had been agreed for 11am, the commanders kept sending troops out right up to very literally, the last second, knowing at 11am the guns would cease firing. Thousands died on that last day after an end had been agreed. Sickening.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Anyone with access to catch up should watch the Antiques Roadshow from last Sunday which I got round to watching last night. It's not a normal antiques roadshow episode. It's all about stories of war heroes from WW1 being the 100th anniversary of that war ending. Typically each segment is a family member with medals and some photos telling the story of that particular individual. No values whatsoever as they thought it would be tasteless to do so. It's the very essence of the poppy appeal - a really worthwhile watch.

The most difficult thing for me to stomach was the description of how once an end to the war had been agreed for 11am, the commanders kept sending troops out right up to very literally, the last second, knowing at 11am the guns would cease firing. Thousands died on that last day after an end had been agreed. Sickening.

An American man named Henry Gunther was the last to die in WW1, at 10:59.

Utterly inconceivable that some Generals were still throwing men in to combat despite knowing that the war was already over. George Ellison was the last British soldier to die, he served throughout the entire conflict.

Really just horrible. Can't imagine what it was like for the families to have lost them in that way.

 

[cyberman]

Singing chants about a guy who 'hates the Brits' .. yeah no, nothing to see here.

It's absolutely the same kind of song that would be getting roundly condemned if the shoe was on the other foot, and rightly so. If a bunch of English fans were singing a song about hating Ireland, hating a symbol of Irish war dead etc, every Irish poster on here would be up in arms about it.

Ah behave. There's plenty of English chants about the Irish that are never brought up.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Ah behave. There's plenty of English chants about the Irish that are never brought up.

I'm sure there are.

The difference is, I somehow doubt you'd get many people calling it 'class' if somebody posted a video of a bunch of EDL twats singing about how much they hate Ireland.

 

[Member 39557]

I'm sure there are.

The difference is, I somehow doubt you'd get many people calling it 'class' if somebody posted a video of a bunch of EDL twats singing about how much they hate Ireland.

There's a strong anti english sentiment amongst some that raised its head during the world cup. Just pop them on ignore and move on.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

There's a strong anti english sentiment amongst some that raised its head during the World Cup. Just pop them on ignore and move on.

Fair, I'll keep that in mind.

I do recall some of the bitterness during the World Cup. Shame some feel the need to let it spill over in to more important matters.

 

[cyberman]

I'm sure there are.

The difference is, I somehow doubt you'd get many people calling it 'class' if somebody posted a video of a bunch of EDL twats singing about how much they hate Ireland.

He hates scousers....

No need to compare a playful chant to the EDL!

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

He hates scousers....

No need to compare a playful chant to the EDL!

I wouldn't call a song about hating the poppy (no matter how the Irish feel about it, it's an important symbol to many in Britain), hating a sovereign and hating a country 'playful', but we obviously have different standards.

Like I said, pretty certain if it was a bunch of English lads it would be condemned as hate filled nationalism, but there you go.

 

[Jamie Shawcross]

Let players choose whether they want to or not, and completely respect their decision. At the end of the day, it is possible to pay your respects without having a plastic flower pinned to your coat. I for one can't stand the furore around the poppy/when someone doesn't wear one.

 

[Mogget]

Appropriate adverts..

Spoiler

 

[The Brown Bull]

It’s not racist, but its blatantly sectarian. And when you get down to it, its just as bad.

Exactly.

 

[Barca84]

You know the point he's making. Don't be a pedant.

No nothing pedantic about it. I used that example of Derek because you've got a clear Irish, English and then racial context. They didn't object to his Englishness (at least it wasn't detailed in the piece) it was specifically his race.

These aren't minor and unimportant details which is where you find pedants operating. If we want to seek solution to certain behaviours and feelings such as racism, nationalism, sectarianism and xenophobia then I think we need to correctly identify what they are and what's driving them. For example upthread someone claimed McClean was the victim of anti-Catholic sentiment but he isn't because that religious difference no longer really applies. Both countries are largely secular and similar in this regard and are Protestant and Catholic really only in a historical context.

Those who have taken issue with him are doing so on the basis of his Irish Republicanism and a perceived lack of respect for their own beliefs and culture. His nationality allied with his political beliefs and the history of the two countries are the cause of the tension not the fact that he is a caucasian. Any definition of racism also normally includes the belief in some sort of superiority of one race over another. Not only are those abusing McClean of the same race they are also unlikely to be doing so from a viewpoint of superiority or supremacy - it is more outrage and offence at his beliefs and actions.

Like I referred to upthread exploring commonality instead of accentuating the difference can be a really useful tool in promoting understanding and tackling division. In the case of McClean vs Stoke fans both parties believe themselves to be "sticking up" for their people and their culture.

 

[Green_Red]

Correct, and if we applied that same logic to any charity then we wouldnt donate money to anyone. They aren't willingly financially supporting war criminals.

But he's perfectly fine making his fortune in England? Paying taxes to the government that instructed those soldiers and in some instances covered up those war attrocities? And who continue to use those taxes on defence, some 2.1% of GRP. It seems he only holds onto his principles until he can make a bit of money from it.

-

I've already said that @stevoc, I said that in the post you responded to. What doesn't sit well with me is when he makes statement of it, much like he did when he turned his back on the flag. There's a difference between opting out and being disrespectful, particularly when you factor in the aforementioned hypocrisy.

There are literally thousands of Irish republicans that have no love for the British establishment that pay taxes in Britain primarily because they are Citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland by birth. There is no hypocrisy because, whether he likes to admit or not, he is a British citizen.

Surely the ability to choose your own political affiliation without being oppressed (in anyway) is a cornerstone of modern British values? Or do you disagree?

 

[rumac]

And how many more over 30 years were killed by the IRA in Derry? The British army was not innocent, but let's not beat around the bush here and absolve the IRA (and also the unionist paramilitaries lest we forget) of the scummy and villainous actions that they themselves carried out.

Just saw this. Who is absolving the IRA of anything? For what it's worth I don't particualrly like James McCleans occasional "up the Ra" utterances but that is an entirely seperate issue. No one is suggesting wearing symbols to commemorate IRA members who died, so it really is entirely irrelevant to the issue neing discussed.

 

[cyberman]

There are literally thousands of Irish republicans that have no love for the British establishment that pay taxes in Britain primarily because they are Citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland by birth. There is no hypocrisy because, whether he likes to admit or not, he is a British citizen.

Surely the ability to choose your own political affiliation without being oppressed (in anyway) is a cornerstone of modern British values? Or do you disagree?

Spot on.
Why would a man who was born and raised in Britain be a hypocrite for working in Britain?
Should all Republicans leave Northern Ireland to stay true to their values?
Its a very strange line to take

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Spot on.
Why would a man who was born and raised in Britain be a hypocrite for working in Britain?
Should all Republicans leave Northern Ireland to stay true to their values?
Its a very strange line to take

I think people that make this argument are under the impression that he is from the ROI. The fact is that a lot of people in the UK don't understand the political situation in Northern Ireland.

 

[ivaldo]

There are literally thousands of Irish republicans that have no love for the British establishment that pay taxes in Britain primarily because they are Citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland by birth. There is no hypocrisy because, whether he likes to admit or not, he is a British citizen.

Surely the ability to choose your own political affiliation without being oppressed (in anyway) is a cornerstone of modern British values? Or do you disagree?

Again, this point seems to have become distorted. I was using the logic of another poster to make a point.

I agree entirely. I've said, many times, he's free to hold his own views and I'll respect them. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them though. The poppy doesn't represent what he and others think it represents, and the longer this opinion is voiced and remains uncontested, the further we move away from the crux of what the poppy campaign and the work of the British Legion is really about.

 

[Green_Red]

Again, this point seems to have become distorted. I was using the logic of another poster to make a point.

I agree entirely. I've said, many times, he's free to hold his own views and I'll respect them. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them though. The poppy doesn't represent what he and others think it represents, and the longer this opinion is voiced and remains uncontested, the further we move away from the crux of what the poppy campaign and the work of the British Legion is really about.

What does it represent then?

 

[ivaldo]

What does it represent then?

It's a symbol of rememberance and hope. It doesn't represent the glorification of war, nor does it vindicate the decision to go to war, or try to justify the actions of anyone. It certainly does not "stand for all the conflicts that Britain has been involved in."

 

[jontheblue]

It's a symbol of rememberance and hope. It doesn't represent the glorification of war, nor does it vindicate the decision to go to war, or try to justify the actions of anyone. It certainly does not "stand for all the conflicts that Britain has been involved in."

I agree fully. That's certainly the case for me and what I have always understood the purpose of the poppy to be. But I think it's surely fair to say that nobody can say what the poppy means to someone else, even if you think it's mistakenly. I can understand why someone who has strong feelings about a particular military conflict finds it hard not to conflate issues

 

[ivaldo]

I agree fully. That's certainly the case for me and what I have always understood the purpose of the poppy to be. But I think it's surely fair to say that nobody can say what the poppy means to someone else, even if you think it's mistakenly. I can understand why someone who has strong feelings about a particular military conflict finds it hard not to conflate issues

Which is why I say he has every right to not wear a poppy, but a certain level contestation needs to exist when he makes the sort of announcement he has. Of course that does not, in any way, justify the appalling reaction we've seen from a small selection of knuckle draggers.

 

[The Brown Bull]

It's a symbol of rememberance and hope. It doesn't represent the glorification of war, nor does it vindicate the decision to go to war, or try to justify the actions of anyone. It certainly does not "stand for all the conflicts that Britain has been involved in."

It was meant to be such but like it or not it has also become ( to some) a symbol of Imperialism, Militarism and colonialism and the outraged reaction of a certain cohort to any perceived slight only strengthens those perceptions.

 

[Moriarty]

Let players choose whether they want to or not, and completely respect their decision. At the end of the day, it is possible to pay your respects without having a plastic flower pinned to your coat. I for one can't stand the furore around the poppy/when someone doesn't wear one.

Better still, keep it out of football altogether. I've said before that sport and politics is a toxic brew and this illustrates the point. Back in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, it was unheard of for players to wear poppies. Remembrance Sunday was just that; a day when the dead from two wars were remembered. People wore poppies in the week leading up to the ceremony as a mark of respect for the fallen and then it was put away until the next year. The poppy has now taken on a meaning that was never intended and that, to me, is a sad comment on what we have become as a society.

 

[ivaldo]

It was meant to be such but like it or not it has also become ( to some) a symbol of Imperialism, Militarism and colonialism and the outraged reaction of a certain cohort to any perceived slight only strengthens those perceptions.

Erroneously so. Where's the logic that's brought it to this point? There's been misassociation and it needs to be challenged. Otherwise, it just becomes an accepted thing, which is what we are heading towards.

 

[sullydnl]

Erroneously so. Where's the logic that's brought it to this point? There's been misassociation and it needs to be challenged. Otherwise, it just becomes an accepted thing, which is what we are heading towards.

Well in Ireland's case it was because it was immediately associated with imperialist, militaristic and colonialist behaviour.

Spoiler

In 1924, The Irish Times reported that an estimated 40,000 people swarmed the streets of the capital, wearing poppies and singing British military tunes, commenting that “the display of Flanders poppies was not equalled by any city in the British Isles”.

The official figures of poppies sold in Ireland for that same year, as given by the British Legion, was 220,000.

Although occasions of mass popularity, the Remembrance Day services and marches were politicised, secularised and divisive. Thousands of people walking through the streets of Dublin in military formation, waving Union Jacks and singing God Save the King, didn’t sit well with an Irish government who was trying to forge a nation of Irish language speakers and Roman Catholics.

The Remembrance Day marches were seen as provocative to the Irregulars, as the IRA were known at the time, and they became events of violence and disorder.

For context this was just eight years after the 1916 leaders were executed by the British army, three years after the Anglo-Irish peace treaty was signed, one year after the resulting civil war had ended and a full 13 years before Ireland escaped dominion status. It was also just two years after those delightful Black and Tan fellows had left the country.

It's hardly surprising at that point that watching these former British soldiers marching in formation through the streets of Dublin singing British army tunes, "God Save The King" and waving the Union Jack whilst wearing the poppy was seen as ever so slightly political, given it was obviously exactly that.

 

[The Brown Bull]

Better still, keep it out of football altogether. I've said before that sport and politics is a toxic brew and this illustrates the point. Back in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, it was unheard of for players to wear poppies. Remembrance Sunday was just that; a day when the dead from two wars were remembered. People wore poppies in the week leading up to the ceremony as a mark of respect for the fallen and then it was put away until the next year. The poppy has now taken on a meaning that was never intended and that, to me, is a sad comment on what we have become as a society.

Completely agree with this.

 

[The Brown Bull]

Erroneously so. Where's the logic that's brought it to this point? There's been misassociation and it needs to be challenged. Otherwise, it just becomes an accepted thing, which is what we are heading towards.

Challenged? Explain how you go about challenging it? The fact is that it has been turned into something it was never intended to be.

 

[Rory 7]

No nothing pedantic about it. I used that example of Derek because you've got a clear Irish, English and then racial context. They didn't object to his Englishness (at least it wasn't detailed in the piece) it was specifically his race.

These aren't minor and unimportant details which is where you find pedants operating. If we want to seek solution to certain behaviours and feelings such as racism, nationalism, sectarianism and xenophobia then I think we need to correctly identify what they are and what's driving them. For example upthread someone claimed McClean was the victim of anti-Catholic sentiment but he isn't because that religious difference no longer really applies. Both countries are largely secular and similar in this regard and are Protestant and Catholic really only in a historical context.

Those who have taken issue with him are doing so on the basis of his Irish Republicanism and a perceived lack of respect for their own beliefs and culture. His nationality allied with his political beliefs and the history of the two countries are the cause of the tension not the fact that he is a caucasian. Any definition of racism also normally includes the belief in some sort of superiority of one race over another. Not only are those abusing McClean of the same race they are also unlikely to be doing so from a viewpoint of superiority or supremacy - it is more outrage and offence at his beliefs and actions.

Like I referred to upthread exploring commonality instead of accentuating the difference can be a really useful tool in promoting understanding and tackling division. In the case of McClean vs Stoke fans both parties believe themselves to be "sticking up" for their people and their culture.

You know the point the poster was making. He was talking about anti-Irish sentiment. You know he was. Your smart remark that ‘the Irish aren’t a race’ is just that, a smart remark.

The Irish are an ethnically defined group based on culture, language, history and a range of other factors. I don’t particularly want to get into the rights and wrongs of McClean. However, I actually am not so sure that those abusing McClean aren’t doing so from a perceived sense of ‘superiority’; having been on the receiving end of that type of thing myself in the past I think I can talk from position of strength on this topic.

I do, however, want to call you out on a petty pointless post about race. I think you know what point the original poster was trying to make, there was no need to post the piece about the Irish not being race, it looks to me like a pretty pedantic smart ass quote that hasn’t really added anything to this thread.

 

[2cents]

There is no racism inherently involved in Irish prejudicial or xenophobic attitudes to the English nor is there in the other direction because Irish and English are the same race.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. During the days of Empire the Irish were often 'racialized' by their British masters as different - inferior, uncivilized, violent, etc. Here's an example:

Fair to say tropes such as these have survived to this day.

 

[Rory 7]

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. During the days of Empire the Irish were often 'racialized' by their British masters as different - inferior, uncivilized, violent, etc. Here's an example:

Fair to say tropes such as these have survived to this day.

Spot on. Racialised tropes very much remain to this day. In a previous life I worked with a well known company who have offices and staff in Dublin and London. At times the London staff referred to the Irish as ‘potatoes’. Senior executives in this multi-national, I kid you not. I left their employ I’m proud to say, best move I ever made.

 

[Barca84]

Spot on. Racialised tropes very much remain to this day. In a previous life I worked with a well known company who have offices and staff in Dublin and London. At times the London staff referred to the Irish as ‘potatoes’. Senior executives in this multi-national, I kid you not. I left their employ I’m proud to say, best move I ever made.

Personally I don't see that as evidence of "racialised tropes" remaining. I'd see a parallel there with a northerner working in London being the subject of jokes about being thick, flat cap wearing, a pigeon fancier that sort of thing. Stereotypes being exploited in a tribal sense and in your case to do with your nationality as opposed to being from a different region within the UK or being of a different race which you're not. There's equivalents in Ireland I know eg Cork v Dublin. It's very common.

The vast majority of people in England regard the Irish not as racially different but simply like them and neighbours. It confuses a lot of English when Irish folk take umbrage at not being recognised as different from them.

You posted something a few weeks ago that sort of fits your racial trope theory re Thierry Henry describing him as a:

cheating, handballing, invicible, baguette munching twat.

Do you regard yourself as employing a "racist trope" for referring to a Frenchman as a baguette muncher? Personally I wouldn't say the above confirms that but by your criteria it does. I'd say it clearly meets the definition of a xenophobic and bigoted comment perhaps but racist I'm not so sure. For a start he's French but then he's black yet there's no mention of his colour. I think sometimes that intent and context play a huge part in detecting underlying attitude.

Victorian attitudes to race and assumed superiority have little to no bearing on the Stoke fans reaction to McClean. They are largely of the past in the same way that children are no longer regarded as disposable and useful for putting up chimneys to clear them.

 

[Rory 7]

Personally I don't see that as evidence of "racialised tropes" remaining. I'd see a parallel there with a northerner working in London being the subject of jokes about being thick, flat cap wearing, a pigeon fancier that sort of thing. Stereotypes being exploited in a tribal sense and in your case to do with your nationality as opposed to being from a different region within the UK or being of a different race which you're not. There's equivalents in Ireland I know eg Cork v Dublin. It's very common.

The vast majority of people in England regard the Irish not as racially different but simply like them and neighbours. It confuses a lot of English when Irish folk take umbrage at not being recognised as different from them.

You posted something a few weeks ago that sort of fits your racial trope theory re Thierry Henry describing him as a:



Do you regard yourself as employing a "racist trope" for referring to a Frenchman as a baguette muncher? Personally I wouldn't say the above confirms that but by your criteria it does. I'd say it clearly meets the definition of a xenophobic and bigoted comment perhaps but racist I'm not so sure. For a start he's French but then he's black yet there's no mention of his colour. I think sometimes that intent and context play a huge part in detecting underlying attitude.

Victorian attitudes to race and assumed superiority have little to no bearing on the Stoke fans reaction to McClean. They are largely of the past in the same way that children are no longer regarded as disposable and useful for putting up chimneys to clear them.

Even a basic understanding of history will explain the sensitivity of an Irishman being called a Potato by an Englishman. Its related to the genocide of the Irish via British policy in Ireland. I hope you are aware of that. My post about Henry being a ‘baguette muncher’ is in no way a racist trope and you know it. So don’t try and conflate two separate issues. You are going to great lengths to divert from your silly post earlier. Best for you to leave it now.

 

[stevoc]

Again, this point seems to have become distorted. I was using the logic of another poster to make a point.

I agree entirely. I've said, many times, he's free to hold his own views and I'll respect them. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them though. The poppy doesn't represent what he and others think it represents, and the longer this opinion is voiced and remains uncontested, the further we move away from the crux of what the poppy campaign and the work of the British Legion is really about.

What do you think the poppy represents?

And what do you think McClean thinks it represents?

 

[ivaldo]

Well in Ireland's case it was because it was immediately associated with imperialist, militaristic and colonialist behaviour.

Spoiler

In 1924, The Irish Times reported that an estimated 40,000 people swarmed the streets of the capital, wearing poppies and singing British military tunes, commenting that “the display of Flanders poppies was not equalled by any city in the British Isles”.

The official figures of poppies sold in Ireland for that same year, as given by the British Legion, was 220,000.

Although occasions of mass popularity, the Remembrance Day services and marches were politicised, secularised and divisive. Thousands of people walking through the streets of Dublin in military formation, waving Union Jacks and singing God Save the King, didn’t sit well with an Irish government who was trying to forge a nation of Irish language speakers and Roman Catholics.

The Remembrance Day marches were seen as provocative to the Irregulars, as the IRA were known at the time, and they became events of violence and disorder.

For context this was just eight years after the 1916 leaders were executed by the British army, three years after the Anglo-Irish peace treaty was signed, one year after the resulting civil war had ended and a full 13 years before Ireland escaped dominion status. It was also just two years after those delightful Black and Tan fellows had left the country.

It's hardly surprising at that point that watching these former British soldiers marching in formation through the streets of Dublin singing British army tunes, "God Save The King" and waving the Union Jack whilst wearing the poppy was seen as ever so slightly political, given it was obviously exactly that.

Interesting. Was it reported elsewhere at the time?

Challenged? Explain how you go about challenging it? The fact is that it has been turned into something it was never intended to be.

For one, refuting statements that state that "it stands for all the conflicts Britain have been in."

What do you think the poppy represents?

And what do you think McClean thinks it represents?

I've already said.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Having served in the Army, and been on numerous overseas tours, worked alongside officers from various countries including Germans, French and Irish. I find this thread very sad. Remebrance Day is where we should understand the sacrifice that people have given. When you join the military, you write a blank cheque, and the ultimate price may be your life.

The poppey was a flower that grew in the fields of death at Ypes which most people cannot even comprehend. It flourished despite the appalling conditions - it’s a sign of hope.

‘Profits’ from poppy sales go to the Royal British Legion who support our veterans, many of which need help and support.

I am extremely proud of my personal history. I respect anyone’s decision to not wear a poppey, it’s not compulsory. As a country I am proud that we have a couple of weeks each year where we remember our brave heroes, and it’s not just WW1 or WW2 - there have been very few years since 1946 where we have not seen the death of a British service person in conflict.

Thank goodness we still have people who are willing to put their lives on the line for their friends, their family, their country - they will continue to do this, whether you respect them on not, whether you are thankful for them or not. These are the people who help protect your freedoms, no matter their own politics, no matter which party is in power or what policies the government pursue. They are prepared to give their lives to protect yours - no matter what you think of them.

Wear a poppey with pride, or decide not to, you have the freedom to decide.

 

[sullydnl]

Interesting. Was it reported elsewhere at the time?

No idea, in all honesty I stumbled upon it through a Joe.ie article and gleefully dragged it back here so I could argue some more. My breadth of knowledge ends exactly there.

I did find a piece on the History Ireland website covering the reaction to poppy day in the 20's/30's though.

https://www.historyireland.com/20th...story/poppy-day-in-dublin-in-the-20s-and-30s/

 

[stevoc]

I've already said.

Fair enough mate

It's a symbol of rememberance and hope. It doesn't represent the glorification of war, nor does it vindicate the decision to go to war, or try to justify the actions of anyone.

Sadly mate it represents what people have come to think what it represents and there is a lot of people on both sides of the Irish sea who think the meaning of it has changed over the years. Certainly in the last 10 years in Britain and in the British media it has became something else entirely. It has become inextricably linked to the military.

If it was simply about remembering those who died in both World Wars lots of people in Ireland would wear one, my Grandfather and both his brothers fought in WW2 one of my great uncles died in France. If it was simply about remembering everyone military or otherwise who lost their lives in those conflicts then i and no doubt others would probably wear one. But unfortunately it doesn't and has been commandeered to now represent something else, and no amount of saying otherwise will change that.

It certainly does not "stand for all the conflicts that Britain has been involved in."

This is from just a few posts above, as i said mate it represents what people think it represents.

As a country I am proud that we have a couple of weeks each year where we remember our brave heroes, and it’s not just WW1 or WW2 - there have been very few years since 1946 where we have not seen the death of a British service person in conflict.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Fair enough mate



Sadly mate it represents what people have come to think what it represents and there is a lot of people on both sides of the Irish sea who think the meaning of it has changed over the years. Certainly in the last 10 years in Britain and in the British media it has became something else entirely. It has become inextricably linked to the military.

If it was simply about remembering those who died in both World Wars lots of people in Ireland would wear one, my Grandfather and both his brothers fought in WW2 one of my great uncles died in France. If it was simply about remembering everyone military or otherwise who lost their lives in those conflicts then i and no doubt others would probably wear one. But unfortunately it doesn't and has been commandeered to now represent something else, and no amount of saying otherwise will change that.



This is from just a few posts above, as i said mate it represents what people think it represents.

Well, I respect your point of view, and can't argue with your perspective.

Mine is different, and I suspect our circles are very different. Just because you feel some people have (miss) appropriated Remembrance Day, doesn't mean that it's not valid for millions of people - this is not some sort of BNP rally.

If we don't remember the past, however unpalatable at times, we can't learn from it. I have served side by side with German, Iraq, Afganjstan and Irish soldiers - all of whom in our recent histories have been enemies and our countries have been at war with each other. Understanding and remembering our conflicts helps us move forward.

 

[stevoc]

Well, I respect your point of view, and can't argue with your perspective.

I respect and understand where you're coming from as well mate i do.

Mine is different, and I suspect our circles are very different. Just because you feel some people have (miss) appropriated Remembrance Day, doesn't mean that it's not valid for millions of people - this is not some sort of BNP rally.

I'm not suggesting its anything like that, all i'm saying is it's meaning has changed over the years for better or worse and for some to suggest otherwise is a bit pointless at this stage. It is what it is, it has came to represent and aid the soldiers of every conflict the British military has been involved in. Now don't get me wrong i believe the vast majority of those guys (including those who served in Ireland) are no doubt good people just doing their job and wanting to serve their country. For the most part it's a noble career choice.

But there is a small percentage who did some pretty evil stuff to a few members of my family in my home town and other people in other cities in NI which means i can't in all good conscious support or wear the poppy. I have no problem with other people wearing them, my wife wears one most years. But to have someone say that i and others are wrong for feeling that way or that we are are in some way confused is in my opinion a little insulting.

If we don't remember the past, however unpalatable at times, we can't learn from it. I have served side by side with German, Iraq, Afganjstan and Irish soldiers - all of whom in our recent histories have been enemies and our countries have been at war with each other. Understanding and remembering our conflicts helps us move forward.

I agree mate.

 

[Barca84]

Even a basic understanding of history will explain the sensitivity of an Irishman being called a Potato by an Englishman. Its related to the genocide of the Irish via British policy in Ireland. I hope you are aware of that. My post about Henry being a ‘baguette muncher’ is in no way a racist trope and you know it. So don’t try and conflate two separate issues. You are going to great lengths to divert from your silly post earlier. Best for you to leave it now.

I am well aware of the history of the two countries. I've lived half my life in both. My point is straightforward and consistent. The abuse McClean gets is not racist - and being called a "potato" is nothing to do with racism as you know in the same way that you calling the French "baguette munchers" or "frogs" or the French calling English "rosbifs" is. It's derogatory name calling not based on race but on a cultural association. in 2018 England anybody remotely clued up and reasonable doesn't regard the Irish as a different race - quite the opposite in fact.

I think it's best if we leave it there too and to continue this we move it to the racism thread as this thread is specifically about Poppies in football not potatoes, baguettes, rosbifs and these "racist tropes" that you believe exist to this day.