Whatever McCleans thoughts on the ra, Bobby Sands is an hero and martyr for many many Irish people and some of his quotes are superb. He transcends the political bullshit and is a legendary figure so McClean can quote away and have the full backing of the Irish people.
Poppies and remembrance at football matches
- Thread starter RW2
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I've the height of respect for the way McClean explained his position in his letter to Dave Whelan. I think throwing Bobby Sands and expletives into the Twitter mix was a stupid move. He had the moral high ground with most fair minded fans. He's allowed people to move the goalposts on him again with that tweet.
Not to open a can of worms but claiming the Bobby Sands stuff will afford him the full backing of the Irish people might be jumping the gun a bit.
Not to open a can of worms but claiming the Bobby Sands stuff will afford him the full backing of the Irish people might be jumping the gun a bit.
He's villified in equal measure. You do know that outside of your community some would have a very different view and certainly not give him their full backing?
I agree, but on the reverse side saying it is a symbol of oppression and ignoring the reasons behind it being the symbol of peace and remembrance is just as narrow minded. People should just be allowed to do what they feel is right for them.
He doesn't though, does he?
I'd wager there are plenty in Ireland who don't agree with plenty of what Bobby Sands did. You don't speak for an entire country.
Agreed. Bad move from him as he just feeds the frenzy. Then again if those are his beliefs he's perfectly within his rights to express them as are those who take offence.
And how many more over 30 years were killed by the IRA in Derry? The British army was not innocent, but let's not beat around the bush here and absolve the IRA (and also the unionist paramilitaries lest we forget) of the scummy and villainous actions that they themselves carried out.
If Matic lines up next game with a balaclava on it'll really kick off.
Who is absolving the IRA of anything?
What a ridiculous post.
Who compares the British military to a fecking terrorist organisation to score moral points?
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Republicans and IRA supporters. He just ignored the fact that despite bloody sunday happening, the paramilitaries killed more people. How is pointing this out ridiculous?
He's not wearing an IRA poppy?
It doesn't change Bloody Sunday, the cover up, slandering the victims name etc.
You don't see people attacking Hillsborough supporters do you? This was on an even worse scale than that.
Bloody Sunday could even be seen as the cause of James views due to how horrendous and personal they were, how can a what-aboutism be relevant here?
I'd wager there are very few Irish men or women that don't. Most wouldn't agree with the IRA, but Bobby Sands transcends that.
Yeah fair enough I worded that wrongly, but the point still stands, thousands upon thousands here will support him and I’d say the vast majority in Ireland do.
This isn’t the thread to get into the rights and wrongs of Bobby Sands etc, but McClean is dead right to use that particular quote. His treatment yearly by the English media and by some “fans” is disgusting, just look at the difference in how he is reported vs Matic. Coupled with Neil Lennons treatment in Scotland and it stinks of anti-Irish Catholic bias.
Did I say that it changed anything? You just ignored that I said the army was not innocent. Also pointing out the historical facts is now what-aboutism? Especially as I also mentioned the unionist paramilitary groups also, so is that what abouting them? Army's all over the world have done deplorable thing's its war. James McCLean is hypocritical for saying he won't wear a poppy for political reasons due to Northern Ireland when his own people did many crimes of their own. Sure, he doesn't wear a poppy...I mean what kind of point were making there? He still ignores the crimes done by the IRA.
I don’t know, but I’d say shooting civillians, shooting children and colluding with Loyalist gangs and aiding them to commit murders of civillians is pretty close to terrorism in my book.
His people? You're conflating Irish Nationalists with the IRA. They are not the same thing. My mam was a catholic from Northern Ireland, the IRA are certainly not her people.
Who the feck are his people?
Northern catholics? What kind of logic is that?
Its absurd. Our military may have commited war crimes in our own country against our own people but at least we're not too faced about it...
His own people you mean the IRA? Are you suggesting James McClean is a member/supporter of the IRA or are you suggesting every Catholic in Northern Ireland is a member/supporter of the IRA? If not then what the absolute feck are you on about mate?
Why are you even comparing the IRA with the British Army in the context of this discussion. Theres no national campaign asking footballers to wear a symbol to commemorate fallen IRA men as far as i know. It's also not in the slightest bit hypocritical for someone to choose not to wear a poppy based on the British Army's actions in Northern Ireland.
It's bullshit. Portugal was never invaded by the UK, nor were they in opposite sides in any war. In fact, the UK and Portugal are the oldest military alliance in the world.
Same can be said of Brazil. Only from these two countries there are more than 20 players in the Premier League
EDIT: Well, Portugal was in a forced dinastic union with Spain during the 30 years war, but if that's the reason for our (and Brazil's) inclusion it sounds a bit silly.
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The IRA wouldn't exist but for the British Army so maybe he can commemorate that with a poppy.
That's a great read. I'm old enough to have had a dad who saw active service abroad for the duration of the Second World War (and grandfathers who both fought in the First), and to me the poppy is simply remembering all those men just like my dad who didn't come back home, wherever home happened to be. It transcends creed and country, it's about the extraordinary sacrifices made by ordinary people.
My dad used to take me to the war memorial in our town every year for the Remembrance service. He never talked about it, but he never forgot, either.
I have my grandfather's WW1 medals and from them researched what happened to him (he died when I was 6yo many years ago)
Bert signed up in the East End as an 18yo and 3 months later landed in France. He survived to make it the the 2nd battle of Ypres where the Germans first used chlorine gas. He survived Ypres but 8 months later had his arm taken off by machine gun fire and was sent home. It saved his life and therefore led to mine. His regiment lost 75% of it's men.
I no longer wear the poppy but I'll be thinking of Bert and his pals who didn't come home.
Bert signed up in the East End as an 18yo and 3 months later landed in France. He survived to make it the the 2nd battle of Ypres where the Germans first used chlorine gas. He survived Ypres but 8 months later had his arm taken off by machine gun fire and was sent home. It saved his life and therefore led to mine. His regiment lost 75% of it's men.
I no longer wear the poppy but I'll be thinking of Bert and his pals who didn't come home.
It is not entirely true. That old alliance is basically broken and it's only referrerd as a politically correct fun fact. Not only GB corsaires pilled, raped and burn azorean islands and portuguese comercial boats, you are also conveniently forgetting the 1890 ultimatum incident.
Remember: a pirate is a freelancer, but a Corsair is under the protection of the british crown.
Also, Portugal's national anthem last verse was showing our hate against the brittish, but it was changed for political reasons.
The verser used to say:
"Contra os bretões, marchar, marchar." (In a rough translation, "against the brittains, march, march" )
It was changed for:
"Contra os canhões marchar, marchar"
In my opinion, it’s a matter of choice, and people shouldn’t be abused if they don’t want to wear one.
I have great respect for the men and women who fought in the wars, especially in the second war in the fight against fascism.
I have great respect for the men and women who fought in the wars, especially in the second war in the fight against fascism.
I've only discovered in the last few years that my great grandfather fought in the first world war. I'm an Irish nationalist raised not too far from where James McClean grew up and only found out about the fact when my uncle died and my great gandfather's medals passed on to my Dad. My father had always known but in Irish catholic families in the north of Ireland it was like a dirty little secret that was never talked about. In recent years though my Dad started getting really interested and researched the history and even travelled over to Amiens to see where his grandfather had died. Turns out he had first served in the Second Boer war and then did 2 tours during the First World war.
Now here's the dicotomy, the same uncle who passed on those medals to my own father had also been interned without trial by the British Army in the 1970s simply because he was an Irish nationalist. My father himself attended many civil rights marches in and around Derry during the 60s and 70s including the march that preceded the bloody sunday massacre. He had to identify the bodies of friends shot dead by british army soldiers and in doing so was threatened by those same soldiers. Although he has never talked to me about it and I have never been able to ask him, I know from my Mum that he was abducted, beaten and held for 3 days by the british army on the very day they brought their first child, my sister, home from hospital. Despite all he witnessed and experienced, he doesn't hate Britian or the British. He has loved United since the 60s, worked in England for varous periods in his life when work was scarce at home. He would never wear a poppy for much the same reasons as James McClean has outlined, nor would I for that matter and anyone who would take issue with his reasons for that are clearly blinded by jingoism.
Now here's the dicotomy, the same uncle who passed on those medals to my own father had also been interned without trial by the British Army in the 1970s simply because he was an Irish nationalist. My father himself attended many civil rights marches in and around Derry during the 60s and 70s including the march that preceded the bloody sunday massacre. He had to identify the bodies of friends shot dead by british army soldiers and in doing so was threatened by those same soldiers. Although he has never talked to me about it and I have never been able to ask him, I know from my Mum that he was abducted, beaten and held for 3 days by the british army on the very day they brought their first child, my sister, home from hospital. Despite all he witnessed and experienced, he doesn't hate Britian or the British. He has loved United since the 60s, worked in England for varous periods in his life when work was scarce at home. He would never wear a poppy for much the same reasons as James McClean has outlined, nor would I for that matter and anyone who would take issue with his reasons for that are clearly blinded by jingoism.
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That's how I see the poppy Penna, a symbol of ordinary men and women, who fought to defend their country in those horrific world wars.
This is literally political.
Bolivia and Paraguay are actually the only countries in South America to have never been invaded by Britain.
Brilliant and moving post. Maybe certain posters in here could read, and think about, before bringing ugliness and nastiness to the Caf.
Tbh, if Matic lines up at all, I'lI be pissed off.
Good post..
Just like McClean i'm also born and bred in Derry but having been living here in Manchester for a good few years now. I don't wear one and have never been questioned why not as of yet. Its not something i've been hugely passionate about or ever felt like ranting about, i've never needed to- to be honest, thats just the way it has been, my decision and thats it.. but my reason would probably be something along the same lines as James considering history and my experiences growing up.
But that second paragraph above sums up some of the things when discussing the topic I rarely dare to bring up or try to explain (usually reluctantly as im aware of the of how it's met), as generally things like that are simply scoffed at here, as if im flat out lying and they simply didn't happen. Unbelievable ignorance at times. Ive become quite aware how little a lot of people actually know about what has happened within N.I over the years. So in general im very hesitant to bring up NI politics anymore as i know the response it will likely get,.. as to be totally honest, most people are not really interested and generally don't care and don't want to hear it.
But all that aside. Over the whole topic. People need to chill the f*ck out over it and let it be. Its been blown so much out of proportion recently. But i know for a fact it will be rinse & repeat next year.
Is it true that United and Liverpool were the last clubs to bow to pressure and wear the poppy? I can remember back in the 70s and well into the 80s there was none of this fuss made over the wearing of a poppy and remembrance of those lost in wars.Its become an issue now created by right wingers to cause division and stir up their base.A bit disturbing in my view.
My late grandfather fought in the first World War and never wore a poppy.
My late grandfather fought in the first World War and never wore a poppy.
Indeed. The symbol has definitely been coopted by the right such that the poppy says more about your political stance than the actual remembrance these days. As a result I choose not to wear one.
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Yes. In 2009 every team bar United and Liverpool wore the poppy. They started in 2010.
Leicester were the first PL team to start wearing them in 2003.
We would have sent a gunboat or two but not much point in doing that. I hear that Bolivia does have a navy though and wants its coastline back. Call us if that happens. ;-)
No, my friend, we haven't, but Poles have much to be aggrieved about when it concerns Britain's treatment of their men in 1945. They weren't allowed to take part in the victory parade in London for fear of offending Stalin. My father used to speak in glowing terms about the Poles he met in the RAF when he flew with Bomber Command. It wasn't just the fighter pilots of 1940. The Poles mustered several squadrons that were in the thick of the fighting during the air offensive against Germany. It was the Poles under General Anders who took Cassino and it was General Sosobowski who led his airborne troops in at Arnhem. They deserve the undying thanks of this nation and a grovelling apology from the political class that betrayed them.