Except that the Royal British Legion disagree with you on that. And that it does in fact represent that. This from their website:It's a symbol of rememberance and hope. It doesn't represent the glorification of war, nor does it vindicate the decision to go to war, or try to justify the actions of anyone. It certainly does not "stand for all the conflicts that Britain has been involved in."
Therefore that being the case it is completely and totally understandable why people like McClean, Matic and others that will surely follow do not want to wear the poppy.Wearing a poppy is a way of showing public appreciation for the service and sacrifice of the Armed Forces, veterans and their families in safeguarding our freedoms and values.
It represents all those who lost their lives on active service in all conflicts; from the beginning of the First World War right up to the present day. It also honours the contribution of civilian services and the uniformed services which contribute to national peace and security.
That isn't what it is says though, is it? Representing conflict, and appreciating and acknowledging the sacrifices of servicemen and women is not the same thing.Except that the Royal British Legion disagree with you on that. And that it does in fact represent that. This from their website:
Therefore that being the case it is completely and totally understandable why people like McClean, Matic and others that will surely follow do not want to wear the poppy.
The Irish potato famine was not 'genocide'.Even a basic understanding of history will explain the sensitivity of an Irishman being called a Potato by an Englishman. Its related to the genocide of the Irish via British policy in Ireland. I hope you are aware of that. My post about Henry being a ‘baguette muncher’ is in no way a racist trope and you know it. So don’t try and conflate two separate issues. You are going to great lengths to divert from your silly post earlier. Best for you to leave it now.
You are reaching now.That isn't what it is says though, is it? Representing conflict, and appreciating and acknowledging the sacrifices of servicemen and women is not the same thing.
Im not reaching at all. Its been my base point all along. It is not in support of the conflict, it's in support of those effected by those conflicts, and honouring those that have sacrificed so much in those conflicts. It's clear here that you, like others, are actively conflating the two points.You are reaching now.
If we can agree that it mentions all conflicts (which it does), why would it be expected that McClean, Matic and others should appreciate and acknowledge those people?
Sorry to be blunt about this but for them the "sacrafices" you mention are not viewed as such by them.
In McCleans case Im sure he views them very much as an occupying force. Seems pretty logical to me that he wouldnt want to pay tribute to that.
Its akin to asking the Palestinians in the Gaza strip to pay tribute to the Israeli soliders once a year.
So you would agree it represents and supports all those who have served in the British Military in every conflict since WW1 until present day?Im not reaching at all. Its been my base point all along. It is not in support of the conflict, it's in support of those effected by those conflicts, and honouring those that have sacrificed so much in those conflicts. It's clear here that you, like others, are actively conflating the two points.
You seem to be blurring the line between soliders who serve, and those who dictate how they serve. These people aren't the decision makers.
Would be a fine point if I was at any point suggesting he pays tribute. Which I'm not. So no, it's absolutely nothing like that.
To an extent. It doesn't knowingly support those, for example, who commit war crimes.So you would agree it represents and supports all those who have served in the British Military in every conflict since WW1 until present day?
No it represents and supports them all mate, knowingly or not. It's not the British Legions role to investigate and decide who committed murder or unlawful killings. There are still atrocities being investigated with enquiries in the near future lets remember. Taking that into consideration then people have every right to not want to actively support the appeal they know what it is and what it does and they are not confused or misguided in doing so.To an extent. It doesn't knowingly support those, for example, who commit war crimes.
No it isn’t. Inevitably and invariably, there will always be some element of misplaced charity, regardless of whether it’s the BL, or Oxfam, or a local shelter. Again, as this needs to be stressed, they support conflict in no way, and are themselves an advocate for peace. They do not knowingly support anyone involved in any sort of war crime, no matter how keen you are to conflate the two.No it represents and supports them all mate, knowingly or not. It's not the British Legions role to investigate and decide who committed murder or unlawful killings. There are still atrocities being investigated with enquiries in the near future lets remember. Taking that into consideration then people have every right to not want to actively support the appeal they know what it is and what it does and they are not confused or misguided in doing so.
People need to respect not only the decision of others to not wear one but also respect their reasons.
To an extent. It doesn't knowingly support those, for example, who commit war crimes.
Exactly. It represents them all.No it represents and supports them all mate, knowingly or not. It's not the British Legions role to investigate and decide who committed murder or unlawful killings. There are still atrocities being investigated with enquiries in the near future lets remember. Taking that into consideration then people have every right to not want to actively support the appeal they know what it is and what it does and they are not confused or misguided in doing so.
People need to respect not only the decision of others to not wear one but also respect their reasons.
I'm not conflating anything mate, you are the one who keeps saying that not me. No where have i said the poppy appeal or the British Legion represents or supports war or conflict. What it does do though by the British Legions own admission, your admission and others is represent and support all the soldiers/military personnel from every British Conflict from WW1 to present day, knowingly or not.No it isn’t. Inevitably and invariably, there will always be some element of misplaced charity, regardless of whether it’s the BL, or Oxfam, or a local shelter. Again, as this needs to be stressed, they support conflict in no way, and are themselves an advocate for peace. They do not knowingly support anyone involved in any sort of war crime, no matter how keen you are to conflate the two.
Nor do you, or Mcclean either. So on that basis, because there's a very small chance that the BL might have unknowingly supported someone who committed a war crime, it's reason enough to not support the charity. I take it you show no support for any charity then unless they make exhaustive efforts to do background checks on everyone they help?I'm not conflating anything mate, you are the one who keeps saying that not me. No where have i said the poppy appeal or the British Legion represents or supports war or conflict. What it does do though by the British Legions own admission, your admission and others is represent and support all the soldiers/military personnel from every British Conflict from WW1 to present day, knowingly or not.
That's fact mate and the truth is you and i'm sure the British legion itself has no idea if they have supported people in the past, present or future who have been found to have committed atrocities. Or will in the future be found to have taken part in war crimes or unlawful killings. They will have no idea and possibly no inclination to find out if they have or are currently supporting people involved in Bloody Sunday and other similar incidents.
Exactly, spot on. Lets not forget the only reason poppies were put on football shirts was to sell them in auctions and raise money for charity, that was the original purpose for it. There was no political reason for including them on a shirt.Wearing a poppy should be a private, personal choice. Unfortunately it has become politicised, further driving unnecessary division when it was designed to bring people together.
good post..Having served in the Army, and been on numerous overseas tours, worked alongside officers from various countries including Germans, French and Irish. I find this thread very sad. Remebrance Day is where we should understand the sacrifice that people have given. When you join the military, you write a blank cheque, and the ultimate price may be your life.
The poppey was a flower that grew in the fields of death at Ypes which most people cannot even comprehend. It flourished despite the appalling conditions - it’s a sign of hope.
‘Profits’ from poppy sales go to the Royal British Legion who support our veterans, many of which need help and support.
I am extremely proud of my personal history. I respect anyone’s decision to not wear a poppey, it’s not compulsory. As a country I am proud that we have a couple of weeks each year where we remember our brave heroes, and it’s not just WW1 or WW2 - there have been very few years since 1946 where we have not seen the death of a British service person in conflict.
Thank goodness we still have people who are willing to put their lives on the line for their friends, their family, their country - they will continue to do this, whether you respect them on not, whether you are thankful for them or not. These are the people who help protect your freedoms, no matter their own politics, no matter which party is in power or what policies the government pursue. They are prepared to give their lives to protect yours - no matter what you think of them.
Wear a poppey with pride, or decide not to, you have the freedom to decide.
I don't know 100% but i know theres a very, very good chance they have or are still doing so. We're not talking about 1 or 2 people here mate.Nor do you, or Mcclean either. So on that basis, because there's a very small chance that the BL might have unknowingly supported someone who committed a war crime, it's reason enough to not support the charity.
If they're closely linked to the British Military then no. I don't support any charities that are even remotely likely to aid war criminals.I take it you show no support for any charity then unless they make exhaustive efforts to do background checks on everyone they help?
That doesn't matter though does it?Exactly, spot on. Lets not forget the only reason poppies were put on football shirts was to sell them in auctions and raise money for charity, that was the original purpose for it. There was no political reason for including them on a shirt.
I can fully understand why anyone would not wear one. The reason McClean gets so much flak is because he goes out of his way to rub people up the wrong way, and his reasons are for events that happened before he even born.
On the balance of probability every major charitable organization would have in some way I'm afraid. Even you must see how tenuous a link this is becoming in order to oppose the support of a wholly honest and good natured organisation.I don't know 100% but i know theres a very, very good chance they have or are still doing so. We're not talking about 1 or 2 people here mate.
Besides it's not just the financial side, they also represent them symbolically rightly or wrongly.
If they're closely linked to the British Military then no. I don't support any charities that are even remotely likely to aid war criminals.
And?Exactly, spot on. Lets not forget the only reason poppies were put on football shirts was to sell them in auctions and raise money for charity, that was the original purpose for it. There was no political reason for including them on a shirt.
I can fully understand why anyone would not wear one. The reason McClean gets so much flak is because he goes out of his way to rub people up the wrong way, and his reasons are for events that happened before he even born.
90 percent of the people who wear it weren't born for the events eitherExactly, spot on. Lets not forget the only reason poppies were put on football shirts was to sell them in auctions and raise money for charity, that was the original purpose for it. There was no political reason for including them on a shirt.
I can fully understand why anyone would not wear one. The reason McClean gets so much flak is because he goes out of his way to rub people up the wrong way, and his reasons are for events that happened before he even born.
Right, so if you had 10,000 injured British soldiers who would die without aid, but 20 of them had committed war crimes, you would completely refuse to support them?
War criminals make up a small % of those being helped, and overwhelmingly the BL does great work for men who badly need it. A small minority of those they help have committed crimes but this isn't the intention but just an unavoidable consequence.
People that go 'Yeah, I'd be fine if it was WW2/WW1 dead but not those war criminals who served in Ireland!' are being ridiculously naive. A small minority of British soldiers in EVERY CONFLICT EVER have committed war crimes, including during the world wars. There hasn't been a war in the history of mankind which was 100% just, in WW2 the British navy attacked and killed shipwrecked German sailors, the British army looted & pillaged in France and attempted rape by British soldiers was reported in Italy.
You will always get disgusting acts committed during war, but the BL doesn't endorse these charities it merely aims to help those who are suffering. People are absolutely free to decide whether they want to take part, but the charity is a good one which does fantastic work.
I have no issue with people from Ireland not wanting to wear the poppy, or anybody for that matter .. it's totally a personal choice and nobody should be pressurised in to it. I'm not here enforcing 'poppy fascism' because that would be ridiculous, it takes away the entire point .. it's a free choice to show respect or not.I get what your saying about the percentage etc, & I understand all conflict is never just, but when you are brought up only knowing and experiencing the negative things about the army like the majority of people in ireland, your perspective changes a little. trust me. In my personal experience as a kid the percentage was the other way around, the odd one was polite and friendly, whilst most pointed guns, intimidated, beat people up, called us names and laughed. Thats just what alot grew up to experience. But I try not to let it taint my view too much these days as i now know plenty of people that have served in army/navy, and most of them couldnt be any nicer.
Lets say for instance though I bow to the pressure and decide to wear one. I go to meet with one of my best friends whos teenage uncle was shot dead on Bloody Sunday by an unknown paratrooper. An incident which ripped apart his family at the time. Do i then give him that story that its only a percentage? No chance. Like i mentioned before that would be an insult to him if i showed up wearing something that is a tribute to the people that done that damage to his family. It just wouldn't be right.
Its not being naive. Its not being disrespectful to Britain. Its being respectful to people like my friend. Its just a simple choice. Its respectfully declining.
In a perfect world, the BL shouldn't have to exist in the form it does. The British government, unlike the Americans and the VA system, has always turned its back on its veterans. When Kipling wrote "Tommy," he knew what he was writing about.I don't view people not wearing poppies as disrespectful to Britain, all I am saying is that the notion that the BL supports war criminals is ridiculous. As a charity it's undeniably a good one which helps a lot of good people, it doesn't represent imperialism, or militarism, or any of that other shite. It's just a charity dedicated to helping ex servicemen and women who are suffering.
I don't disagree, the way the British government treats veterans is disgusting. Like discarded goods after they've served a purpose.In a perfect world, the BL shouldn't have to exist in the form it does. The British government, unlike the Americans and the VA system, has always turned its back on its veterans. When Kipling wrote "Tommy," he knew what he was writing about.
Well personally I don’t understand how you can feel so strongly about something when he wasn’t even born. He referred to the people that died on bloody Sunday as ‘my people’. I don’t get it. I wouldn’t refer to people where I was born as my people.That doesn't matter though does it?
So presumably it's all out mental this weekend. . . poppies, bugles, the works. . .
What a farce.
But you have ignored this point through this thread on a few occasions.Love it, hopefully they make lots of money for a great cause and fingers crossed it'll wind up as many people as possible who somehow get annoyed at people who are dead being remembered.
Such a 'farce' that people are actually bothered by this. Don't take part if you don't care, this is your right. Don't try and ruin it for the majority who do want to pay respects and do want to contribute. It's a part of the English game and hopefully it always be.
So logically then you won't understand how people can feel so strongly about wearing the poppy and remembering the dead of the first and second world war since most of us weren't born when those events happened ?Well personally I don’t understand how you can feel so strongly about something when he wasn’t even born. He referred to the people that died on bloody Sunday as ‘my people’. I don’t get it. I wouldn’t refer to people where I was born as my people.
He’s got a massive chip on his shoulder. Matic explained his reasons, I get it, he saw first hand the problems caused by British Soldiers. And you know what because he’s a nice, quiet guy no one is on his back.
The abuse that McClean is getting is certainly out of order and I don’t condone that sort of behaviour but the way he goes out about it, he doesn’t help himself.
But it is a part of it now .. and a majority embrace it, whilst most who don't are just happy to shrug their shoulders, not take part but accept it. Then you have a small minority who are somehow bothered by people honouring dead British soldiers in England.But you have ignored this point through this thread on a few occasions.
It hasn't always been part of the English game. Leicester were the first PL team to wear it in 2003. United and Liverpool the last to join in 2010.
It's something relatively new to the game to be fair and something it survived long enough without. And look at the debate it sparks every single year. It honestly should be kept well well away from football and had it have been none of this nonsense debate would ever have rared it's head. Nor do I think most people would be any the wiser about the history and views of James mcclean or Nemanja Matic.
Are you still being pedantic about this? The abuse McCleans getting isn’t racist by definition but its basically as bad as racism.I am well aware of the history of the two countries. I've lived half my life in both. My point is straightforward and consistent. The abuse McClean gets is not racist - and being called a "potato" is nothing to do with racism as you know in the same way that you calling the French "baguette munchers" or "frogs" or the French calling English "rosbifs" is. It's derogatory name calling not based on race but on a cultural association. in 2018 England anybody remotely clued up and reasonable doesn't regard the Irish as a different race - quite the opposite in fact.
I think it's best if we leave it there too and to continue this we move it to the racism thread as this thread is specifically about Poppies in football not potatoes, baguettes, rosbifs and these "racist tropes" that you believe exist to this day.
So Save the Children has as much of a probability of aiding former British soldiers who committed war crimes as a charity that is specifically geared solely towards aiding former British Soldiers?On the balance of probability every major charitable organization would have in some way I'm afraid. Even you must see how tenuous a link this is becoming in order to oppose the support of a wholly honest and good natured organisation.
I'm sure the vast majority perhaps even all of the people involved in the British Legion are good folk only trying to help others. And wouldn't support or approve of the actions of some of the soldiers their charity represents.Does it represent them? You think you'll find many supporters of the BL, or BL themselves, support those war crimes?
Jesus. The bastards literally exported tonnes upon tonnes of food from Ireland, shooting or imprisoning any starving Irish who tried to take the food back. What did they think was going to happen, we’d eat the grass just?The Irish potato famine was not 'genocide'.
There was no aim for the extermination of the Irish people, which is what genocide is.
Certainly the British government didn't view the Irish with much importance and their response to the crisis was disgraceful, but it wasn't genocide. The British government didn't engineer a famine to kill the Irish, they simply adopted a policy of neglect because they didn't view it as financially beneficial to give proper aid.
So every Jewish person born after the 1940's should have no strong feelings about the holocaust either then?Well personally I don’t understand how you can feel so strongly about something when he wasn’t even born. He referred to the people that died on bloody Sunday as ‘my people’. I don’t get it. I wouldn’t refer to people where I was born as my people.
He’s got a massive chip on his shoulder. Matic explained his reasons, I get it, he saw first hand the problems caused by British Soldiers. And you know what because he’s a nice, quiet guy no one is on his back.
The abuse that McClean is getting is certainly out of order and I don’t condone that sort of behaviour but the way he goes out about it, he doesn’t help himself.
Bloody Sunday wasn't that long ago. Its his neighbours father's, uncles, brothers and children that died that day.Well personally I don’t understand how you can feel so strongly about something when he wasn’t even born. He referred to the people that died on bloody Sunday as ‘my people’. I don’t get it. I wouldn’t refer to people where I was born as my people.
He’s got a massive chip on his shoulder. Matic explained his reasons, I get it, he saw first hand the problems caused by British Soldiers. And you know what because he’s a nice, quiet guy no one is on his back.
The abuse that McClean is getting is certainly out of order and I don’t condone that sort of behaviour but the way he goes out about it, he doesn’t help himself.
