How many of those would you have taken before him in the summer 2017 with no hindsight. 3? 4?
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Yeh right....most of 'us'
My bad.....
I'd rather focus on what he can do, than what he can't. I'd take scoring goals over a first touch any day....that said, coaches always told me the first touch set you up for scoring goals...?
Aubameyang, Richarlison, Vardy, Icardi, Mandzukic would have been no brainers for me. Lacazette hovers between below and here as I just didn't watch him enough to know.
Arnautovic, Insigne, Mertens, Wilson I either wouldn't have been sure on/wouldn't know enough about.
It doesn't really matter to be honest as hindsight makes us look stupid for missing a load of players. What matters is how we address the fact that Lukaku won't fit into this fluid, pacey front 3 because he isn't that player. Not his fault, just his playing style - will he be moved on or will we try and shoehorn him in and block another striker's path?
Christ.... an ability to do the hardest thing in football 100 times without being able to control a ball. That's some magic trick. Also doing it more times than any other Belgium player....bloody hell this lads is lucky and all that without a first touch???
There's absolutely no way anyone would've taken Arnautovic before Lukaku that's for sure I wouldn't take his now tbf. I think Auba and Icardi are certs, Vardy was deemed hot and cold and too big a question mark if the memory serves. The rest, bar likeIsaid, is not even question. We tend to forget what we thought/felt last month, let alone 1,5 half year ago. All this fuelled by the fact Rom's been shite for the last 3 months or so, which is an eternity on a message board.
Not to mention that Messi could not be further from the ‘laziest player on the planet’. He’s extremely hardworking!
I don’t think the sentiment of your post is correct, unless I’m misreading. You seem to be saying people were not questioning Lukaku’s signing at the time? I don’t think that’s true at all. Go back just one week before we were linked with him, and check the tone of conversation on here regarding him. It was a far from unanimous agreement that he was a United player. In fact, I think the consensus was that he wasn’t good enough.
That said, I thought he’d be better than he is now, but I’d seen enough to know that he had no more footballing ability than a standard centre half well before he came here.
I think he'll struggle to displace Rashford.
What I mean is that I believe there's not one person who would've chosen Arnautovic before Lukaku. Or Wilson. Or Richarlison. I seem to remember he was seen as decent acquisition, PL proven. Not fancy perhaps but adequate.
That’s probably all true. Especially the first part.
This is incidental to the overall discussion, but this is so far from the truth that the only real explanation is you don't watch Messi that often. He spends a lot of time walking (more than almost any other player on the planet) and covers far, far, less distance than any other player playing his position. It's obvious to the naked eye, and backed up by stats.
This article covers a lot of the raw data: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than-most-players-run/
He's 31 years now. Of course he'll focus his work on offensive side rather than consuming it in running around.
But back when he was in Lukaku's age :
Some of the quick passing we did in the final third, especially for the 2nd goal (against Huddersfield), would not have resulted in a goal, had Lukaku been passed the ball.
Lukaku would do fine if he is the final person to touch the ball, but he should not be used in a role where he is expected to help build up play. In 2018, for a striker not to be able to build up play seems like an oxymoron.
I just don't see him as being an option for us. If we need to go long ball, I think Fellaini is a better player.
In saying all of the above, he should be given a chance, but if his poor form continues, we need to ship him out in the Summer and accept that he is basically useless to a team which aspires to win the league.
He should start on the bench and work his way up by playing last 20-30 minutes each game. If he's still as shite, sell in summer.
Agreed.
But when he was scoring all those goals, he was a lot slimmer. The wrestler's physique which he currently has, is not the same physique which scored all those goals.
Another point of note is that he seems unable to score against the top sides. And when going for the big trophies, we need a striker who is able to score goals against those big teams.
For me, Rashford is better. I'd love to see Greenwood be given a go, as Rashford's back up. Don't forget that we also have Sanchez, who may come good, under Ole. The quick passing and high pressing we play under Ole, will suit Sanchez.
Jose was trying to do that, but he was still shite.
Except the insinuation that this is a new development or a result of age is as demonstrably incorrect as the post I replied to. The simple fact is that Messi isn't a very hardworking player, and hasn't been for most of his career. As this article notes (itself four years old) this has been observable since at least 2010 (and Ken Early made a similar point during the same world cup).
Messi may have run more when he was younger, but the simple fact is for an awful lot of his career he's been an absolutely massive outlier in terms of how little distance he covers to impact games as much as he does. Why, or even how, he does so is a separate (much more interesting) discussion completely incidental to the original poster's argument that Messi was actually an example of an 'extremely hardworking' player. The fact you can draw a 14 minute video out of his nearly ~800 career games of him winning the ball back is neither here nor there.
Why should I read an article instead of watching it with my own eyes ?
Messi was doing the pressing very high on the pitch. He doesn't track back, because the instructions in Barca aren't that but when they press higher or when the ball is near to him with an opposition he presses and tries to recover it, as you can see in the video. Of course, at the age of +30 he'll start consuming his efforts to the offensive side as he doesn't have the same stamina as before.
And anyway, the comparison of Lukaku and Messi hardwork is ridiculous from the start because Lukaku isn't going to offer 1/3 of what Messi provides upfront to give him the excuse of being "lazy" as the current Messi. In fact, hardworking is the only thing a limited striker like Lukaku can offer so imagine if it's not present.
Have you watched him live? It's actually surprising how little he moves until the ball is within a few feet of him.
Currently he's not hardworking anymore I said it. He's 31 so obviously he'll save all his efforts for when he has the ball instead of consuming his stamina in running. When he was same age as Lukaku he was pressing high when there's a chance as the video I posted, but now he needs to manage his stamina.
And as I said, Lukaku can't offer 1/3 of what "current" Messi provides to be excused for being lazy. Lukaku is a limited player who has only his hardworking and aggressive style to justify his presence upfront so imagine if it's not there too. This excuse is suited more for technical players.
Because I don't think you've actually seen that much of him, or your memory isn't that good. Pick one of the two.
I think your biggest problem, though, is that you think I'm interested in the ludicrous Lukaku comparison (which wasn't mine) or that I am criticising Messi. I'm interested in neither. In fact, I would argue that one of the reasons that the debate I interjected in is so weird is because of the fact Messi is so unique in his ability to impact games whilst walking. It's not something that any player has been able to replicate, and its a fairly daft thing to try and hold up in defence of Lukaku who couldn't be further from Messi in most other aspects of his game.
It's even dafter, however, to try and argue that Messi works particularly hard on the pitch. He doesn't, and he hasn't going back a long time. We can point out the fact that it's ludicrous to compare Lukaku to Messi for a whole host of reasons without inventing alternate realities.
If you mean "working hard" tracking back or things like these, Messi has never done a tracking back or rarely does it. By working hard people mean pressing high and moving a lot in final third. Prime Messi was moving. He's just now consuming his stamina but he wasn't static or lazy when he was younger.
I last saw him when he was 27, he was walking around most of the game. He's never been a particularly hard working player on the defensive side but he looks it on TV because the cameras are on him only when the ball is near.
Hard working doesn't mean tracking back and defending on your side. Messi never or rarely did that, and no manager is daft enough to tell him to track back. People don't want Lukaku to defend or track back either. It means he moves a lot in the final and high presses when there's a chance. Lukaku is very static upfront and barely moves nowadays. He can't be excused for that because he's not a technical player and it's pace and physique that're his best traits, so he can't be standing still upfront waiting for the ball to reach him.
Man Messi's one of the most static players I've ever seen. It's an amazing thing. His mind might be working at 100 miles an hour but his body isn't, in any aspect of the game.
He started managing his energy under Guardiola and his injuries started to disappear. Since then he's only ever gotten less energetic. There's lots of benefits to that but his lack of movement off the ball has caused his club and country plenty of issues in plenty of games. A lot of those issues are there as a result of Lukaku's lethargy or lack of alertness too.
Don't disagree that he's not now hardworking per se. I said it.
You've said explicitly he's conserving his energy now he's 30+. He clearly hasn't started conserving more energy now than he was in his late 20s, and the changes between 25 year old Messi and 30 year old Messi are so subtle that they just aren't worth mentioning. What you've implied beyond that is at one point he was a hardworking player. Maybe in his early years but not at Lukaus age, not a chance.
Except there's nothing to support the argument that Messi is a particularly hard worker here, either. In fact, the evidence suggests otherwise: he's significantly 'worse' at it than almost all comparable players.
God knows what time period you think 'Prime Messi' entails, but you're not describing how he has played on or off the ball for about 10 years. If that was the last time you saw him I suggest catching a Barcelona game again sometime soon, you're missing out on some player.
Why are you using the present verb when I have stated several times now he's not anymore ? I'm talking about when he was same as Lukaku age and the video I posted is the evidence you're asking for when he was younger.
Why we discussing Messi in the Lukaku thread?
Did I miss something? What’s Lukaku done to be compared to the great man?
Did I miss something? What’s Lukaku done to be compared to the great man?
Because the only poster who thinks there's a difference between Messi at 25 and Messi at 31 on this front is you, and you're wrong.
If you believe so. You asked for an evidence and I brought it.
And as I said, you can't use current Messi being lazy as an excuse for Lukaku being lazy, for the reasons we all know.
I've a feeling a lot of these posts are going to age badly. The guy who nearly beat kane to 100 goals just got an attacking manager. No question he needs to lose muscle and get his pace back but he is a prolific striker over a lot of years, and we have a strikers manager now
I'm afraid I never asked you to provide evidence, but let's draw a line under this whole debate and agree on a far more basic point: You can't use anything that Messi does as an excuse for anything Lukaku does because Messi is on a different stratosphere to Lukaku.
We agree on thing at least.
I'm happy to have him back. Really want to see if Ole can have an affect on him and how we set up with him in the team. Of course, if he is poor he shouldn't start. I don't think Ole will either. The days of "My captain shall always play" and starting out-of-form players are hopefully over.
Are you denying that his 1st touch is sunday league level? Don't you ever seen an average striker with good scoring record? There are many average who had good number of goals at small clubs and struggled when they went a bigger clubs (Ings, Heskey, Carrol, Benteke,...). His form for the Belgium means nothing, many average players have good performances for their NT.
How many times did you watch Messi play? Or is it accasionaly in some big games and read his stats, like many who think Ronaldo is better do, and base your judgement on that. I see @NinjaFletch have already given you some stats to back what I said.
Just come in here and people are comparing him to Messi.
I'll exit swiftly.
I'll exit swiftly.
If you take the emotion out of it and think about what you are saying with the utmost respect, it's nonsense. I think he struggles more in certain situations that are more reliant on making the decisions before the first touch. He not a lone striker despite his size but play the ball through for him to run onto, his goal scoring record proves he's one of the best. The idea that playing for smaller clubs but consistently at his age scoring 20 goals every season, is stupidly incredibly when compared to those who mainly had to play for PL winning teams to do the same. It's no fluke and he had a very good first season here, in fact must be one of the best goal scoring first seasons as a Utd player.
None of the players mention has consistently scored goals in this way.
His form for Belgium means something if you are from that country and want to get to WC semi finals and again proves his ability to score goals which arguably is harder at international level is no fluke too.
Jose did him no favours, played him when his form was poor to prove a point. He played too many games in general which made him appear 'undroppable'.
We'll see a very different Rom in this team but like Pogs, the vultures will always be circling no doubt....
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