‘Number 10s’...

[Rozay]

What are their uses in top-level football? Other than making the game look pretty and stuff.

I mean, you have various types of 10s, but on the whole, they are pretty obsolete in the game now. They must now ‘evolve or become extinct’. Either be able to play wide, or add enough substance to their game to either play as a 9 (false 9 they are often masquerading as), or an 8, like say Coutinho, or Eriksen.

Ultimately though, did they con us all? Because of their often extreme levels of natural footballing ability, they were seen as essential 10/15/20 years ago. However, this statistical era (which I absolutely despise) has maybe exposed them. 7 goals 11 assists a season is still just 7 and 11, even if 2 of the 7 were goal of the season contenders, or they made 3 entries in the debate of ‘Best first touch you’ve ever seen’.

 

[RochaRoja]

The emergence of the deep lying playmaker in the '00s essentially made the classic number 10 obselete. Riquelme was the last true 10 at the top level and even then he was a bit of an anachronism.

A number 10 like Totti, who can act as a world class centre forward and playmaker at the same time would still get into any team in the world though.

 

[QoS]

Most top teams now can't afford the luxury of having a out and out number 10, they need all their midfield players to do "more".

 

[Renegade]

Agree with both of you. 10’s need to be versatile enough to fit into a 433. Riquleme is the last classic 10 I can remember.

 

[Pexbo]

This forum was obsessed with United signing a #10 between 2010-Mata.

Ozil, Sneijder, Hamsik and Gotze to name a few who we were obsessed with.

We tried and failed with Kagawa and Mata never made it his place here as tactics and squad balance never allowed it. Since then the game has moved on and the game has changed to a point where more technical number 10s are seen as obsolete with pacey inside forwards who carry the ball from deeper and wider preferred.

I expect a paradigm shift again soon with a different tactic emerging as the "modern approach" and a "new" type of player emerging for it to be built around.

 

[the_irish123]

This discussion was starting in late 90s, when LvG clashed with Rivaldo, shifting him to the wing to play 4-3-3.

 

[RooneyLegend]

The best player in the world is a no10.

 

[Rozay]

The best player in the world is a no10.

No he isn’t. He’s a 9.5.

 

[waza7111]

A bit of a strange thread. A lot of clubs still use number 10s successfully. Just because United don't it doesn't mean other clubs can't.

 

[K2K]

No he isn’t. He’s a 9.5.

Modric is an 8

Lol

 

[FootballHQ]

Best players to watch in football if you get the team structure right.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

This discussion was starting in late 90s, when LvG clashed with Rivaldo, shifting him to the wing to play 4-3-3.

Hello @fontaine

 

[Peyroteo]

Playing with a classical number 10 massively hurts the team when faced against teams capable of defending the space between the lines and it massively hurts them defensively by having to press with 1 less player. It makes it very hard to build a team around them.

Modern number 10s need to be versatile, fall on the wings more often, make different movements without the ball and press when they dont have the ball.

Either that or be good enough so the club builds the entire team around them.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I think the 3412/5212formation might get popular at some point, both cover the modern day requirements and give the number 10 the chance to dictate

 

[Rozay]

I think the 3412/5212formation might get popular at some point, both cover the modern day requirements and give the number 10 the chance to dictate

Possibly, but to what end? For a top team, the chances are you will be sacrificing wide men capable of getting 20 a season for this 10. As said by @SportingCP96 it will take a very special 10, and I doubt there will be enough of them to make it the formation of choice across the top of the game.

 

[bond19821982]

Big credit should goto Pep . He has realigned the old fashioned 433 style with bringing in wingers and No 10s to midfield roles.

Does any team has proper No 10s now?

 

[SadlerMUFC]

The problem with the classic #10 in todays game is that they tend to be lazy. Look at a player like Ozil. Emery wants his team to press and Ozil just wants to be a play maker and doesn't put in the work rate. So when he isn't busting a nut without possession it exposes the rest of his teammates. If a team is pressing that means everyone has to press or it becomes pointless.

But then we see a team like City who have essentially taken 2 numbers 10's (D Silva and DeBruyne) and turned them into #8's. Someone like Mourinho would never have the vision to play both of those players in central midfield. He would either play them both as wingers or select just one in a #10. He would look at them and think they weren't big enough to play as a #8. Pep has proved this to be false and changed the way that a classic #10 plays...

 

[the_irish123]

Big credit should goto Pep . He has realigned the old fashioned 433 style with bringing in wingers and No 10s to midfield roles.

Does any team has proper No 10s now?

Everton with Gylfi. No coincidence their defense is awful.

 

[Zehner]

I think in modern games almost every attacker plays as some kind of number 10. Wingers who cut in are effectively 10s, in a 4-3-3 the eights essentially play like 10s, the striker nowadays often distributes the ball and so forth. Look at City exemplarily. Not too long ago, Sterling, De Bruyne, Gündogan and both Silvas and possibly even Fernandinho would probably assume the role of a ten (exemplarily in a 4-4-2 with a diamond formation). It is not like the number 10s were extinguished, the modern tactical approach is rather playing as many of them simultaneously as possible.

However, it is definitely true that they have more defensive responsibilities now and if they won't adapt, like Özil exemplarily, they will inevitably fall short.

 

[Dante]

The best player in the world is a no10.

Rashford? Yeah, I agree.

 

[RedIceland]

Everton with Gylfi. No coincidence their defense is awful.

I wouldn't say Gylfi is a classic number 10 though. He has played in a 2 man midfield for years with Iceland and done great. His workrate is also top notch (he covered the most distance in the league of all players in the 16/17 season) and he's not a bad tackler. If he is a proper 10, then there are few 10s that can match his defensive output.

 

[Bwuk]

Pogba playing at 10 today and has been tremendous. It’s similar to how City at times used to push Yaya forward and have De Jong/Barry deep.

 

[Brwned]

I find it so odd how easily people fall into the trap of thinking the current way of playing is the best way of playing. It's just a trend. 442 was obsolete until Madrid won the CL with it. There's countless examples of that.

#10s have floated in and out of the game for generations and will continue to be. The idea that the most limited stats available have now suddenly allowed people to see the light, when managers who pick the teams have had good records of that for half a century, is so self important it's laughable.

 

[Peyroteo]

I find it so odd how easily people fall into the trap of thinking the current way of playing is the best way of playing. It's just a trend. 442 was obsolete until Madrid won the CL with it. There's countless examples of that.

#10s have floated in and out of the game for generations and will continue to be. The idea that the most limited stats available have now suddenly allowed people to see the light, when managers who pick the teams have had good records of that for half a century, is so self important it's laughable.

The standard 442 is pretty much obsolete, Atletico are the only top team keeping it alive and it doesn't exactly make wonders for them offensively. Madrid didn't really play 442. They played 4-3-whatever, people called it a diamond but it wasn't really a diamond.

 

[SportingCP96]

Possibly, but to what end? For a top team, the chances are you will be sacrificing wide men capable of getting 20 a season for this 10. As said by @SportingCP96 it will take a very special 10, and I doubt there will be enough of them to make it the formation of choice across the top of the game.

Aha I think you have me confused with @SCP mate

 

[SportingCP96]

Aha I think you have me confused with @SCP mate

Or maybe it was @Peyroteo I haven’t read through the thread yet haha.

 

[Brwned]

The standard 442 is pretty much obsolete, Atletico are the only top team keeping it alive and it doesn't exactly make wonders for them offensively. Madrid didn't really play 442. They played 4-3-whatever, people called it a diamond but it wasn't really a diamond.

If you're one of those weirdos that likes reading about football every single day, then I'd recommend reading Inverting the Pyramid. The wealth of evidence in there is firmly in favour of the idea that since 4 at the back became the norm in the late 50s, every single formation since then has simply rotated in and out of fashion as opposed to becoming obsolete.

If you're not arsed enough to read about the history that's cool, but the evidence is there. Formations are not better than each other. They're just better suited to supporting and defending certain styles of play, and different styles of play have taken hold due to a combination of the players' skillsets and the managers' preferences in each era.

It may well be the case that evolutions in tactical, technical and physical preparation have gotten to a point where every player needs to be a complete footballer...but then I look at the best player of our generation and think, nah, certain players still justify being carried. It's possible #10s might fall out of fashion for the forseeable future but the idea that it has anything to do with the ability to record and review goals and assists is ignorant beyond belief.

And in di Maria's wonder season if you think that wasn't a 442, then 442 never really existed at the top level. A lopsided 442 was the standard 442. It's just splitting hairs.

 

[Peyroteo]

If you're one of those weirdos that likes reading about football every single day, then I'd recommend reading Inverting the Pyramid. The wealth of evidence in there is firmly in favour of the idea that since 4 at the back became the norm in the late 50s, every single formation since then has simply rotated in and out of fashion as opposed to becoming obsolete.

If you're not arsed enough to read about the history that's cool, but the evidence is there. Formations are not better than each other. They're just better suited to supporting and defending certain styles of play, and different styles of play have taken hold due to a combination of the players' skillsets and the managers' preferences in each era.

It may well be the case that evolutions in tactical, technical and physical preparation have gotten to a point where every player needs to be a complete footballer...but then I look at the best player of our generation and think, nah, certain players still justify being carried. It's possible #10s might fall out of fashion for the forseeable future but the idea that it has anything to do with the ability to record and review goals and assists is ignorant beyond belief.

And in di Maria's wonder season if you think that wasn't a 442, then 442 never really existed at the top level. A lopsided 442 was the standard 442. It's just splitting hairs.

I actually agree with the point you were making and what you're saying there, just that Madrid wasn't the best of examples.

 

[ROFLUTION]

This discussion was starting in late 90s, when LvG clashed with Rivaldo, shifting him to the wing to play 4-3-3.

Aye, Rivaldo was a great player

 

[Gio]

This debate over 10s and work rate isn't a new one. It isn't a modern phenomenon that all players have to contribute off the ball. If anything the game in the 1980s and 1990s was more defensive and relied on more graft from the full XI. Look at the challenges Baggio faced in his career to carve out a role despite being surrounded by 10 workhorses. The challenge today is more about accommodating a classic 10 in the 4-3-3 that is most frequently used at the top level. Yet at the same time a 4-2-3-1 basically accommodates up to 3 numbers 10s in the same team, which would have been next to impossible a generation ago.

I think in modern games almost every attacker plays as some kind of number 10. Wingers who cut in are effectively 10s, in a 4-3-3 the eights essentially play like 10s, the striker nowadays often distributes the ball and so forth. Look at City exemplarily. Not too long ago, Sterling, De Bruyne, Gündogan and both Silvas and possibly even Fernandinho would probably assume the role of a ten (exemplarily in a 4-4-2 with a diamond formation). It is not like the number 10s were extinguished, the modern tactical approach is rather playing as many of them simultaneously as possible.

However, it is definitely true that they have more defensive responsibilities now and if they won't adapt, like Özil exemplarily, they will inevitably fall short.

True.

The standard 442 is pretty much obsolete, Atletico are the only top team keeping it alive and it doesn't exactly make wonders for them offensively. Madrid didn't really play 442. They played 4-3-whatever, people called it a diamond but it wasn't really a diamond.

If by standard 442 you mean a flat four-man midfield then yes that has largely been made redundant at the very top level over the last 20 years. 4-4-2s are still alive though.

 

[Sgt.Major]

The best player in the world is a no10.

Nope, he's wearing 7.

 

[MJJ]

I mean there isn't really a good number ten in the world right now anyways. You can bet if a zico or zidane comes through, they would be playing as a number ten.

 

[Rozay]

I mean there isn't really a good number ten in the world right now anyways. You can bet if a zico or zidane comes through, they would be playing as a number ten.

Not at the very top. Zidane himself often lined up on the left, and I suspect that if Zidane was on the market today, not many top clubs would be in for him.

 

[MJJ]

Not at the very top. Zidane himself often lined up on the left, and I suspect that if Zidane was on the market today, not many top clubs would be in for him.

I can see chelsea(with kante), psg(French connection and they already have pastore),madrid(rebuild), Atletico(lemar role) all going for him.

Even Bayern as they do use to play Muller in that position.

 

[SCP]

Aha I think you have me confused with @SCP mate

You were wrong. Again. As always.

 

[Zehner]

Difficult question regarding Zidane. What made him so brillant were his occasional moments of genius. He was always about improvisation. Doing things nobody would expect in moment.

But the game has changed since then. I have the impression that especially at the very top clubs you have a more structured game approach. If played as a 8, Zidane would have to adjusthis decision making. At the top, you nowadays want players with 90+% passing accuracy. Zidane was never like that. He loved taking risks and tried difficult passes, a bit like Özil. As a CM in the modern game he would have to constrain himself and emphasize on setting up attacks instead of finishing them himself. Or he'd have to play as a winger but I feel that wouldn't do him justice, either.

However, his time at Madrid proved that he is aware of these changes. I'm actually convinced that the player Zidane as one of the most intelligent footballers ever would be able to adjust his playing style - because technically there is probably no player in the game who is on his level.

 

[Bwuk]

Not at the very top. Zidane himself often lined up on the left, and I suspect that if Zidane was on the market today, not many top clubs would be in for him.

Sorry what? You don’t think top clubs would be in for Zidane?!?

He’d walk into every side in world football with ease.

 

[simonhch]

Not at the very top. Zidane himself often lined up on the left, and I suspect that if Zidane was on the market today, not many top clubs would be in for him.

Come on mate, have a word with yourself. You’ve taken it too far now. In a 4-3-3 Zidane would play as the most advanced of the three. As an 8.5. He’d walk into pretty much any team in the world. Just imagine him playing for Barça or City, with their systems.

Recent 10s like Bergkamp, and Cantona, would simply evolve to master other positions either as inverted forwards, false 9s, or 8.5s. The typical number 10 position has disappeared for now (although as with most things in football it is cyclical and could well reappear), but the type of player who was attracted to it, are simply molded into different roles these days. Kinda like how there are a dearth of classic 9s these days. Most strikers are more versatile forwards.

It’s not the players that have changed, just the training systems, demands, and tactics de rigeur.

 

[simonhch]

Difficult question regarding Zidane. What made him so brillant were his occasional moments of genius. He was always about improvisation. Doing things nobody would expect in moment.

But the game has changed since then. I have the impression that especially at the very top clubs you have a more structured game approach. If played as a 8, Zidane would have to adjusthis decision making. At the top, you nowadays want players with 90+% passing accuracy. Zidane was never like that. He loved taking risks and tried difficult passes, a bit like Özil. As a CM in the modern game he would have to constrain himself and emphasize on setting up attacks instead of finishing them himself. Or he'd have to play as a winger but I feel that wouldn't do him justice, either.

However, his time at Madrid proved that he is aware of these changes. I'm actually convinced that the player Zidane as one of the most intelligent footballers ever would be able to adjust his playing style - because technically there is probably no player in the game who is on his level.

With all due respect, it’s not a difficult question at all. Zidane played the way the era dictated. If he played today under a coach like Guardiola, do we think he would have any difficulties adapting to his instructions? Absolutely not. Zidane took risks because his coaches wanted him to. There is not a single starting xi in the world currently, he wouldn’t improve.

 

[Rozay]

Sorry what? You don’t think top clubs would be in for Zidane?!?

He’d walk into every side in world football with ease.

Nope. Not the Zidane that he was. Nobody gives a feck about your ‘brilliant first touch’. It’s not worth it. A few clubs might be in for him, but I suspect many would pass. Barca would have him with how they play, but I think the Zidane who plays as a 10 has no home in most of the top clubs. I think Chelsea would love him, especially as they have Kanté behind, but if he were to play centrally, Souness would want to kill him, and the same Ozil questions will come up. On the left, I can’t see a Liverpool swapping him for Mané for example.