‘Number 10s’...

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

I'm not sure i can think of any very good/great players that had long careers at a high level(say circa 15 years) during my lifetime following football that suddenly couldn't cope because of changing tactical trends. Since the last big time of real tactical upheaval with the move to mostly 4 at the back, it's been 99% of the time all still variations of 4-4-2 and 4-4-3 with the big paradigm shift other than that being co-ordinated pressing tactics, which 90% of top league and NT's had come to grips with at a good standard by the mid- late 90s at the latest. Even to current day a lot of the managers that get the most recognition for their tactics like Guardiola, Klopp, Bielsa are still all just working in and refining that idea of team pressing/controlling space that has been around in slightly different guises for a long time now. THere's not been another big tactical shift anywhere near on that level since which would render whole positions like the attacking midfielder obsolete, rather we just see slightly different uses of them like Silva, De Bruyne at City, Rakitic at Barca etc...

Also, Zidane is being talked about here like he played all his career like his last 2-3 years or worse. He was part of very hard working, pragmatic Juventus and French sides and while not expected to cover ground or be a talented tackler like Deschamps or Davids, still had to put in a coordinated solid shift defensively...he wasn't a carried luxury player. A lot of the more genuinely lazy or unfit players in his kind of position weren't exactly lasting too long or being bought at big clubs back then either, see Prosinecki, Scifo, Marcelinho Carioca, Witschge, Korneev, Shalimov, Hagi, le tissier etc.. all great technicians on the ball that would likely have had far greater careers if it was a time where you could get away easily without much contribution off the ball or good 90 minute stamina.

 

[SportingCP96]

You were wrong. Again. As always.

your lucky you support my(our) club ahaha

 

[SCP]

your lucky you support my(our) club ahaha

Only crazy people would support that club.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I don't understand the OP. Pretty much every type of footballer has to evolve with the times. Keepers these days should be able to pass adequately. Fullback should be able to attack. CBs should often be able to bring the ball out and play. Wingers should be able to score goals. CFs being target men isn't enough anymore. So why are number 10s specifically being picked out as some sort of frauds?

David Silva and KDB are pretty much number 10s and they've adapted brilliantly into AMs in midfield. Same with Iniesta. Zidane would be employed the same way. Or is this a thread based solely on one or two footballers like Mesut Ozil?

 

[SportingCP96]

Only crazy people would support that club.

With all we have seen them go through I think I may be a little crazy myself I also probably aged in dog Years

Still would not choose any other team though

 

[Sky1981]

Because 10 plus 11 is 21

 

[RochaRoja]

The best player in the world is a no10.

Messi isn’t a number 10 in the true sense. He’s a striker/winger/playmaker hybrid.

 

[RochaRoja]

Difficult question regarding Zidane. What made him so brillant were his occasional moments of genius. He was always about improvisation. Doing things nobody would expect in moment.

But the game has changed since then. I have the impression that especially at the very top clubs you have a more structured game approach. If played as a 8, Zidane would have to adjusthis decision making. At the top, you nowadays want players with 90+% passing accuracy. Zidane was never like that. He loved taking risks and tried difficult passes, a bit like Özil. As a CM in the modern game he would have to constrain himself and emphasize on setting up attacks instead of finishing them himself. Or he'd have to play as a winger but I feel that wouldn't do him justice, either.

However, his time at Madrid proved that he is aware of these changes. I'm actually convinced that the player Zidane as one of the most intelligent footballers ever would be able to adjust his playing style - because technically there is probably no player in the game who is on his level.

It’s important to remember that Zidane, one of the greatest number 10s of all time, played mostly on the left of midfield from around 2002 to the end of his career.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Messi isn’t a number 10 in the true sense. He’s a striker/winger/playmaker hybrid.

By true you mean old fashioned. The game changes and players change with. If we're being so rigid there aren't any great true wingers either. Only forwards. It's pointless. There are plenty of 10s and playmakers in the game. They're just utilised differently to how the 80s would have done. KDB and Silva are better examples of you don't like the Messi one.

 

[RochaRoja]

De Bruyne and Silva are both central midfielders (although both started their careers in different roles). I don’t really see how De Bruyne would ever have been considered a 10 tbh. He was an attacking/right midfielder who was an outstanding crosser. Never considered him much of a playmaker or flair player.

If we’re going to use “number 10” to describe anything from strikers to midfielders the term becomes utterly meaningless.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Messi isn’t a number 10 in the true sense. He’s a striker/winger/playmaker hybrid.

He is and has been for eons now. At least since Pep moved him centrally given a false 9 is basically a 10 playing without a striker ahead of him.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Not at the very top. Zidane himself often lined up on the left, and I suspect that if Zidane was on the market today, not many top clubs would be in for him.

Crazy talk given Pogba is a less affluent man's Zidane and many clubs would love to have him.

 

[Brwned]

Nope. Not the Zidane that he was. Nobody gives a feck about your ‘brilliant first touch’. It’s not worth it. A few clubs might be in for him, but I suspect many would pass. Barca would have him with how they play, but I think the Zidane who plays as a 10 has no home in most of the top clubs. I think Chelsea would love him, especially as they have Kanté behind, but if he were to play centrally, Souness would want to kill him, and the same Ozil questions will come up. On the left, I can’t see a Liverpool swapping him for Mané for example.

You realise that Zidane played as a CM, left winger and #10, according to the tactical demands of his team, right? The problem you've raised in the OP is the exact same challenge he faced for pretty much his entire career.

Sometimes his club and country decided to give him total freedom as a #10, sometimes they asked him to make sacrifices. He was clearly better as a #10 but he had many matchwinning performances on the biggest stages outside his favoured position.

 

[redcafe_reader]

I think number 10 is still there, they are just able to do more (same with all other position in modern football) and therefore we called them a different name, shadow striker, inside forward, false nine.. all that jazz

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Nope. Not the Zidane that he was. Nobody gives a feck about your ‘brilliant first touch’. It’s not worth it. A few clubs might be in for him, but I suspect many would pass. Barca would have him with how they play, but I think the Zidane who plays as a 10 has no home in most of the top clubs. I think Chelsea would love him, especially as they have Kanté behind, but if he were to play centrally, Souness would want to kill him, and the same Ozil questions will come up. On the left, I can’t see a Liverpool swapping him for Mané for example.

I tend to give you the beneifit of doubt to not being a id**t, so will treat that as a wum.

I'd kill for peak Zidane at United. Would even sell Pogba for him.

 

[Rozay]

You realise that Zidane played as a CM, left winger and #10, according to the tactical demands of his team, right? The problem you've raised in the OP is the exact same challenge he faced for pretty much his entire career.

Sometimes his club and country decided to give him total freedom as a #10, sometimes they asked him to make sacrifices. He was clearly better as a #10 but he had many matchwinning performances on the biggest stages outside his favoured position.

I’m it saying Zidane ‘only’ played as a 10. I was referring to the opportunity cost of buying him to play in a different position. Some 10s have the ability to play elsewhere. As I said, in a few top clubs, the system really allows it. Like the Silvas at City. That’s how Pep likes to play - with 10s in front of a 6.

What I’m more referring to with 10s are pure 10s that we saw in previous eras. Or Mesut Ozil, as another example. He can simply be put in CM. He’s not a central midfielder though. You could maybe put him there with two sitting behind him to give him that freedom, but again, what I’m mainly questioning is the opportunity cost of doing so. Ozil is one you may want to take that chance with, as he has very extreme productivity with regards to creation. Not many have those numbers though. He’s not enough of a goal scorer either, so you may then feel it’s more ‘worth it’ to buy either another ‘proper’ midfielder who can do a bit more off the ball, or a proper second striker who can do a bit more going the other way.

With Zidane specifically, obviously he had fantastic quality. If hebwere at United, he would likely compete with Pogba for that place. Similar pros and cons will arise from that situation. He won’t put up much better numbers than Pogba is doing first of all. Pogba creates loads of chances every game, and Zidane won’t get 20 goals either. If it were today, you would basically get Souness on his back again for the same things in terms of defensive work. If there’s any improvement, it will be the simple difference in quality between Zidane and Pogba, but aesthetics aside, I don’t think there’s much in it anyway. But we would have had the same issues we’ve had with system over the past 3 years, probably trying to play Zidane in a two like Pogba and it not working.

Everyone is ridiculing me now, but I read the same questions everytime we are linked with other similar top players today, like Fekir or Isco. ‘Where are we gonna put them?’. Some will say ‘Fekir can take Lingard’s place or upgrade Mata on the right’, but the response is usually ‘I would prefer a proper winger’. And this is the challenge on them to evolve. Some have, like Coutinho. He plays as a CM for club and country, and in any case, he has developed his game that his goal threat is worthy of accommodation I think. Ozil is struggling to find a home in modern football. Other pure 10s from previous generations like say, I dunno, Marcelo Gallardo, would probably be homeless in many top sides. Riquelme, I reckon, would be like a Pirlo today. Pirlo himself was a 10 before.

Ultimately, I think teams struggle to find justification to play a system with a number 10 nowadays. No point everyone listing off a number of teams who play them as 8s or 9s or whatever, I mentioned those already, even in the OP I believe. I’m just referring to the actual 10 role. My main point is currently, it doesn’t provide enough value to justify.

 

[Physiocrat]

Ultimately, I think teams struggle to find justification to play a system with a number 10 nowadays. No point everyone listing off a number of teams who play them as 8s or 9s or whatever, I mentioned those already, even in the OP I believe. I’m just referring to the actual 10 role. My main point is currently, it doesn’t provide enough value to justify.

I think the most likely setup for an Ozil type 10 would be either a 3412 or a diamond. In a 4231 you really want your 10 to score more and be more of a second striker

 

[Righteous Steps]

I’m it saying Zidane ‘only’ played as a 10. I was referring to the opportunity cost of buying him to play in a different position. Some 10s have the ability to play elsewhere. As I said, in a few top clubs, the system really allows it. Like the Silvas at City. That’s how Pep likes to play - with 10s in front of a 6.

What I’m more referring to with 10s are pure 10s that we saw in previous eras. Or Mesut Ozil, as another example. He can simply be put in CM. He’s not a central midfielder though. You could maybe put him there with two sitting behind him to give him that freedom, but again, what I’m mainly questioning is the opportunity cost of doing so. Ozil is one you may want to take that chance with, as he has very extreme productivity with regards to creation. Not many have those numbers though. He’s not enough of a goal scorer either, so you may then feel it’s more ‘worth it’ to buy either another ‘proper’ midfielder who can do a bit more off the ball, or a proper second striker who can do a bit more going the other way.

With Zidane specifically, obviously he had fantastic quality. If hebwere at United, he would likely compete with Pogba for that place. Similar pros and cons will arise from that situation. He won’t put up much better numbers than Pogba is doing first of all. Pogba creates loads of chances every game, and Zidane won’t get 20 goals either. If it were today, you would basically get Souness on his back again for the same things in terms of defensive work. If there’s any improvement, it will be the simple difference in quality between Zidane and Pogba, but aesthetics aside, I don’t think there’s much in it anyway. But we would have had the same issues we’ve had with system over the past 3 years, probably trying to play Zidane in a two like Pogba and it not working.

Everyone is ridiculing me now, but I read the same questions everytime we are linked with other similar top players today, like Fekir or Isco. ‘Where are we gonna put them?’. Some will say ‘Fekir can take Lingard’s place or upgrade Mata on the right’, but the response is usually ‘I would prefer a proper winger’. And this is the challenge on them to evolve. Some have, like Coutinho. He plays as a CM for club and country, and in any case, he has developed his game that his goal threat is worthy of accommodation I think. Ozil is struggling to find a home in modern football. Other pure 10s from previous generations like say, I dunno, Marcelo Gallardo, would probably be homeless in many top sides. Riquelme, I reckon, would be like a Pirlo today. Pirlo himself was a 10 before.

Ultimately, I think teams struggle to find justification to play a system with a number 10 nowadays. No point everyone listing off a number of teams who play them as 8s or 9s or whatever, I mentioned those already, even in the OP I believe. I’m just referring to the actual 10 role. My main point is currently, it doesn’t provide enough value to justify.

Don’t get the point though, Zidane spent a lot of his career on the left like Ronaldinho like Coutinho,like Iniesta like Pogba. He wasn’t a player who could just play in one position and also he wouldn’t draw the same criticism as Pogba because he’s playmaking was on a whole complete different level.

 

[Brwned]

I’m it saying Zidane ‘only’ played as a 10. I was referring to the opportunity cost of buying him to play in a different position. Some 10s have the ability to play elsewhere. As I said, in a few top clubs, the system really allows it. Like the Silvas at City. That’s how Pep likes to play - with 10s in front of a 6.

What I’m more referring to with 10s are pure 10s that we saw in previous eras. Or Mesut Ozil, as another example. He can simply be put in CM. He’s not a central midfielder though. You could maybe put him there with two sitting behind him to give him that freedom, but again, what I’m mainly questioning is the opportunity cost of doing so. Ozil is one you may want to take that chance with, as he has very extreme productivity with regards to creation. Not many have those numbers though. He’s not enough of a goal scorer either, so you may then feel it’s more ‘worth it’ to buy either another ‘proper’ midfielder who can do a bit more off the ball, or a proper second striker who can do a bit more going the other way.

With Zidane specifically, obviously he had fantastic quality. If hebwere at United, he would likely compete with Pogba for that place. Similar pros and cons will arise from that situation. He won’t put up much better numbers than Pogba is doing first of all. Pogba creates loads of chances every game, and Zidane won’t get 20 goals either. If it were today, you would basically get Souness on his back again for the same things in terms of defensive work. If there’s any improvement, it will be the simple difference in quality between Zidane and Pogba, but aesthetics aside, I don’t think there’s much in it anyway. But we would have had the same issues we’ve had with system over the past 3 years, probably trying to play Zidane in a two like Pogba and it not working.

Everyone is ridiculing me now, but I read the same questions everytime we are linked with other similar top players today, like Fekir or Isco. ‘Where are we gonna put them?’. Some will say ‘Fekir can take Lingard’s place or upgrade Mata on the right’, but the response is usually ‘I would prefer a proper winger’. And this is the challenge on them to evolve. Some have, like Coutinho. He plays as a CM for club and country, and in any case, he has developed his game that his goal threat is worthy of accommodation I think. Ozil is struggling to find a home in modern football. Other pure 10s from previous generations like say, I dunno, Marcelo Gallardo, would probably be homeless in many top sides. Riquelme, I reckon, would be like a Pirlo today. Pirlo himself was a 10 before.

Ultimately, I think teams struggle to find justification to play a system with a number 10 nowadays. No point everyone listing off a number of teams who play them as 8s or 9s or whatever, I mentioned those already, even in the OP I believe. I’m just referring to the actual 10 role. My main point is currently, it doesn’t provide enough value to justify.

I think most people agree with you for the most part. You've just extended that point to certain extremes. For me, the three extremes were attributing this change in perception to stats, suggesting it is the death of #10s rather than the hibernation, and suggesting Zidane would suffer from it.

Stats might change what engaged fans like yourself think now, but the average fan still doesn't care about stats. And in any case, it was never the fans making the decisions. Managers have had far more information than we currently have since the 90s. They've had access to goals and assists for decades before that. That isn't the reason they're less popular now.

It is undeniable that #10s are less popular now, but that was true a decade ago. I'm sure you can find a thread just like this back then, and I'm pretty sure I was having a similar conversation. It isn't a new idea but the way you've portrayed it, it appears you think it is. Riquelme's 2006 WC is probably the last time a pure #10 had any impact on the world stage, and many people considered that the time when he was replaced by multi functional #10s - inverted wingers, deep lying playmakers, offensive #8s, false 9s, all that jazz - marked the end of his ilk. There is an argument to be made that they'll never come back, but the reality is we don't know. We do know it isn't because of rudimentary stats.

Zidane faced all of the problems you're raising now and overcame them. He would always have found a club that would make the sacrifices he required, because he was that good. He wasn't a good CM but a great CM, he wasn't a good (false) winger but a great one. He was a truly exceptional #10 but even then, not every team could afford that luxury. And it was a luxury then too. Ronaldinho would have loved to play as a pure #10 but had to be a nominal winger, and Eto'o would have to do two jobs to maintain some balance.

To compare him to Pogba is to do Zidane a disservice, IMO. The issues Pogba faces are not to do with style or approach but pure consistency and reliability. Zidane was one of the best of all time because his consistency amd reliability level was remarkably high for a player of his kind. Souness complains about things that at Zidane's peak, he didn't do. I expect Pogba to get to the level where no-one has reason to complain too, even if playing him still involves making sacrifices elsewhere.

Other than that, I agree with you. #10s are out of favour and Ozil is a good example of that. I think he's also not at his peak any more but it is difficult for him to find a place anywhere for any big team, and he might have to drop down a tier. That's in large part due to the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, Sarri etc. putting the system above the players. Since the decline of Sacchi, most managers were much more flexible in their approach. Now the best managers all seem to be playing very systematic football and getting some amazing results. In those conditions, specialist #10s who don't work hard have very little place in the game. I'd be very surprised if that remains the case for the next 2 decades but I really haven't a clue.

P.S I think Isco has already proven himself as an excellent offensive CM, much like David Silva. Not as good yet and with more deficiencies, but good enough that I'd take him here for that role in an instant. And he would be very dangerous under Guardiola.

 

[Rozay]

Don’t get the point though, Zidane spent a lot of his career on the left like Ronaldinho like Coutinho,like Iniesta like Pogba. He wasn’t a player who could just play in one position and also he wouldn’t draw the same criticism as Pogba because he’s playmaking was on a whole complete different level.

I think I addressed that point. Exactly, he spent a lot of time on the left, like Coutinho, like Isco. Not like Ronaldinho though. The point is, once you get past the brilliant touch, of you’re a top side looking for a left winger, would you sign Zidane? Would you give up Mané for Zidane if you were the Liverpool boss?

 

[Righteous Steps]

I think I addressed that point. Exactly, he spent a lot of time on the left, like Coutinho, like Isco. Not like Ronaldinho though. The point is, once you get past the brilliant touch, of you’re a top side looking for a left winger, would you sign Zidane? Would you give up Mané for Zidane if you were the Liverpool boss?

But who’s to say Zidane wouldn’t play in midfield, Wijnaldum a former number 10/7 has because of his strength and ball rentention which Zidane had, or in place of Shaqiri who has fitted in with little problems, when you’re that good managers will always find a way to fit you in, Klopp did the same with Coutinho didn’t he, putting him in midfield to allow the front three to play together. Guardiola has done the same with Both Silva’s also, Zidane was good enough to play a myriad of roles.

When you play the three in a 4-3-3 sometimes you’re essentially playing with a number 10 anyways, one DM another box to box with more responsibilities to defend and another creative player like Zidane who could do a bit of defending but is there to playmake create and score the odd goal, he would fit in any era.

 

[Brwned]

I think I addressed that point. Exactly, he spent a lot of time on the left, like Coutinho, like Isco. Not like Ronaldinho though. The point is, once you get past the brilliant touch, of you’re a top side looking for a left winger, would you sign Zidane? Would you give up Mané for Zidane if you were the Liverpool boss?

He would play exactly the same role Coutinho played for Liverpool, sometimes on the left but often as an offensive CM, and Coutinho in that position was one of their best players. Zidane would obviously be much better. You've reduced him to much less than he was.

 

[Rozay]

I think most people agree with you for the most part. You've just extended that point to certain extremes. For me, the three extremes were attributing this change in perception to stats, suggesting it is the death of #10s rather than the hibernation, and suggesting Zidane would suffer from it.

Stats might change what engaged fans like yourself think now, but the average fan still doesn't care about stats. And in any case, it was never the fans making the decisions. Managers have had far more information than we currently have since the 90s. They've had access to goals and assists for decades before that. That isn't the reason they're less popular now.

It is undeniable that #10s are less popular now, but that was true a decade ago. I'm sure you can find a thread just like this back then, and I'm pretty sure I was having a similar conversation. Riquelme's 2006 WC is probably the last time a pure #10 had any impact on the world stage, and many people considered that the time when he was replaced by multi functional #10s - inverted wingers, deep lying playmakers, offensive #8s, false 9s, all that jazz. There is an argument to be made that they'll never come back, but the reality is we don't know. We do know it isn't because of rudimentary stats.

Zidane faced all of the problems you're raising now and overcame them. He would always have found a club that would make the sacrifices he required, because he was that good. He wasn't a good CM but a great CM, he wasn't a good (false) winger but a great one. He was a truly exceptional #10 but even then, not every team could afford that luxury. And it was a luxury then too.

To compare him to Pogba is to do Zidane a disservice, IMO. The issues Pogba faceless are not to do with style or approach but pure consistency and reliability. Zidane was one of the best of all time because his consistency amd reliability level was remarkably high for a player of his kind. Souness complains about things that at Zidane's peak, he didn't do. I expect Pogba to get to the level where no-one has reason to complain too, even if playing him still involves making sacrifices elsewhere.

Other than that, I agree with you. #10s are out of favour and Ozil is a good example of that. I think he's also not at his peak any more but it is difficult for him to find a place anywhere for any big team, and he might have to drop down a tier. That's in large part due to the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, Sarri etc. putting the system above the players. Since the decline of Sacchi, most managers were much more flexible in their approach. Now the best managers all seem to be playing very systematic football and getting some amazing results. In those conditions, specialist #10s who don't work hard have very little place in the game. I'd be very surprised if that remains the case for the next 2 decades but I really haven't a clue.

P.S I think Isco has already proven himself as an excellent offensive CM, much like David Silva. Not as good yet and with more deficiencies, but good enough that I'd take him here for that role in an instant. And he would be very dangerous under Guardiola.

I think stats has some relevance in the conversation, not cold hard numbers in themselves, but when considering opportunity cost. I think playing a pure 10, brilliant as he may be, is unlikely to give you as much output as an even less talented alternative. Like, we tried Shinji behind the striker. He may have had more silk than Rooney, but the 9.5 that was Rooney gave us more value I think. If Klopp has to choose between Zidane and Mané to play left-side today, I think Mané wins too. It’s not exactly a numbers game, but when you weigh up the pros and cons, the superior technique is perhaps not worth enough.

I’m also not saying they will ‘never’ come back either. Maybe they will, I’m speaking of the now, and recent past. Football is forever evolving of course. In the current game, players like Januzaj are not making it at the very top because he had everything but the pace needed to play wide. In reality, he has all the tools to be a very good 10, but he’s been a victim of the current trends.

With regards to Pogba/Zidane - as you might have realised on this forum, I’m a huge Pogba fan. I don’t think there’s much in it between them in terms of attributes. Zidane was pure genius, but I see the amount of chances Pogba creates here - would Zidane really create many more? Surely he will also struggle going the other way like Pogba does, which will have Souness on his back, showing clips of Zidane walking back as we concede a goal, or switching off on a cross etc. The highlights reel may we’ll be better, but I think the cons will be similar, bar consistency, although Pogba is still just 25.

With Zidane specifically, my main point was him as a 10. He’s considered by many as the best 10 ever. This is why I used his name. I mean even a 10 as good as him may not be accommodated by a top team, as the numbers wouldn’t justify it. Countering with they will play him elsewhere doesn’t really argue that point per se. He could play elsewhere, but if a top team wouldn’t sign even Zidane to play as a 10, then that tells a story of the plight of the role today. I agree with him being excellent in the Pogba role, and Isco could do it too. Wide left, the opportunity cost is too high I think. In the Pogba role, I think that’s where the last of them are hiding in today’s game, which is what I meant by ‘evolve or become extinct’. Coutinho, Silva, Isco have adapted to the LCM role. Zidane could have done it too, but my main point was that even he probably wouldn’t be afforded the 10 role, as there simply wouldn’t be enough benefit to outweigh the negatives.

 

[Gio]

I think I addressed that point. Exactly, he spent a lot of time on the left, like Coutinho, like Isco. Not like Ronaldinho though. The point is, once you get past the brilliant touch, of you’re a top side looking for a left winger, would you sign Zidane? Would you give up Mané for Zidane if you were the Liverpool boss?

He goes into midfield. Given how much they've struggled to control midfield at the top level, Zidane would improve them immeasurably.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Zidane did it before all these names, that’s the point he alreaady evolved when he was leading Madrid to CLs playing from the left. You’re simply using Pogbas time at United to say he would have struggled, but Pogba didn’t have such problems at Juventus, and Pogba and Zidane while both talented still had differences, for one Zidane was more in line with a Modric in that he had a better understanding of playmaking, Modric of course himself played many times as a 10 before settling as a out and out CM in his last few seasons at Madrid, Kroos the same and he is even less physically inclined than Zidane.

 

[Rozay]

He would play exactly the same role Coutinho played for Liverpool, sometimes on the left but often as an offensive CM, and Coutinho in that position was one of their best players. Zidane would obviously be much better. You've reduced him to much less than he was.

He will play there agreed. But point is, even he, as good as he was, would struggle to command the 10 role, in it’s purest form anyway.

I think some of my points are overlapping. I do agree with much of your points, and I’ve said 10s have adapted their roles. Ozil can’t play cm though, and he’s perhaps the example I should focus on to make my point. Within Ozil’s own career span, he was lauded and wanted by the top teams, and has reached a point where none know what to do with him. Others have had qualities to play in roles that ARE more useful for the team, but for those who are still just 10s, they are struggling. Coutinho does a lot of off the ball work, which enables him to be part of the three. Pogba is forever being told he needs to do more of it. Ozil cannot, and is a sub.

 

[Rozay]

He goes into midfield. Given how much they've struggled to control midfield at the top level, Zidane would improve them immeasurably.

But he doesn’t go into 10. You can physically put a footballer anywhere. You can play Zidane at centre half because you decide you want more control there if you feel like it. But the point is, if you don’t put a 10 as good as Zidane at 10, then you won’t put anyone there, as Ozil is finding out. Unless you are now calling yourself an 8, or 8.5, there’s no place for you.

 

[Brwned]

I think stats has some relevance in the conversation, not cold hard numbers in themselves, but when considering opportunity cost. I think playing a pure 10, brilliant as he may be, is unlikely to give you as much output as an even less talented alternative. Like, we tried Shinji behind the striker. He may have had more silk than Rooney, but the 9.5 that was Rooney gave us more value I think. If Klopp has to choose between Zidane and Mané to play left-side today, I think Mané wins too. It’s not exactly a numbers game, but when you weigh up the pros and cons, the superior technique is perhaps not worth enough.

I’m also not saying they will ‘never’ come back either. Maybe they will, I’m speaking of the now, and recent past. Football is forever evolving of course. In the current game, players like Januzaj are not making it at the very top because he had everything but the pace needed to play wide. In reality, he has all the tools to be a very good 10, but he’s been a victim of the current trends.

With regards to Pogba/Zidane - as you might have realised on this forum, I’m a huge Pogba fan. I don’t think there’s much in it between them in terms of attributes. Zidane was pure genius, but I see the amount of chances Pogba creates here - would Zidane really create many more? Surely he will also struggle going the other way like Pogba does, which will have Souness on his back, showing clips of Zidane walking back as we concede a goal, or switching off on a cross etc. The highlights reel may we’ll be better, but I think the cons will be similar, bar consistency, although Pogba is still just 25.

With Zidane specifically, my main point was him as a 10. He’s considered by many as the best 10 ever. This is why I used his name. I mean even a 10 as good as him may not be accommodated by a top team, as the numbers wouldn’t justify it. Countering with they will play him elsewhere doesn’t really argue that point per se. He could play elsewhere, but if a top team wouldn’t sign even Zidane to play as a 10, then that tells a story of the plight of the role today. I agree with him being excellent in the Pogba role, and Isco could do it too. Wide left, the opportunity cost is too high I think. In the Pogba role, I think that’s where the last of them are hiding in today’s game, which is what I meant by ‘evolve or become extinct’. Coutinho, Silva, Isco have adapted to the LCM role. Zidane could have done it too, but my main point was that even he probably wouldn’t be afforded the 10 role, as there simply wouldn’t be enough benefit to outweigh the negatives.

Your point about stats makes no sense because managers have had access to those stats for years, and have used them to inform decisions for years. Access to stats hasn't changed their perspectives. Other things have. We know that for certain. It is only the fans perspectives that might have changed because of stats. I would guess stats have played a role in changing perceptions, mostly for the worst. The idea of Zidane being perceived as not contributing enough now is one of the worst consequences of the Ronaldo and Messi era.

 

[Rozay]

Your point about stats makes no sense because managers have had access to those stats for years, and have used them to inform decisions for years. Access to stats hasn't changed their perspectives. Other things have. We know that for certain. It is only the fans perspectives that might have changed because of stats. I would guess stats have played a role in changing perceptions, mostly for the worst. The idea of Zidane being perceived as not contributing enough now is one of the worst consequences of the Ronaldo and Messi era.

I’m not saying managers only discovered stats. I’m personally not a fan of this statistical obsession either.

And I’m not saying Zidane didn’t contribute enough either. I’m saying he doesn’t contribute enough to be played behind 1 or 2 strikers today (I.e, 10 role). All good him playing as an 8 or 11 or whatever. But as a 10, he’d either need to do more of the 9s job than he did, or more of the 8s job than he did today.

And I’m not sure it’s a worse consequence of the era either. Zidane was the standard until Messi Ronaldo came along and raised it. They are better players than he was. It would have been far more of a shame if those players did not emerge due to teams not playing like that and favouring a 10.

 

[Brwned]

He will play there agreed. But point is, even he, as good as he was, would struggle to command the 10 role, in it’s purest form anyway.

I think some of my points are overlapping. I do agree with much of your points, and I’ve said 10s have adapted their roles. Ozil can’t play cm though, and he’s perhaps the example I should focus on to make my point. Within Ozil’s own career span, he was lauded and wanted by the top teams, and has reached a point where none know what to do with him. Others have had qualities to play in roles that ARE more useful for the team, but for those who are still just 10s, they are struggling. Coutinho does a lot of off the ball work, which enables him to be part of the three. Pogba is forever being told he needs to do more of it. Ozil cannot, and is a sub.

I agree with you that Zidane probably wouldn't play as a #10 in many clubs, because many clubs are so system-driven that they wouldn't want a traditional #10. However he would feature in every single club I can think of and be one of their best players in a range of positions, just like the "modern #10" does. Which is exactly what he did throughout his career. I also think there are a number of top clubs that are less system-driven, like ourselves, that might well play him as a traditional #10.

No-one is arguing against the point that traditional #10s like Riquelme are rare, and that's driven by tactical changes. No-one. It's just hard to understand what you're saying sometimes when you're asking the question whether Liverpool would play him as a left winger, when that seems entirely besides the point - they would obviously play him as an offensive CM. Once you reach that conclusion it's hard to figure out what your original point was. It certainly didn't have anything to do with Zidane as a #10 at this point:

I think I addressed that point. Exactly, he spent a lot of time on the left, like Coutinho, like Isco. Not like Ronaldinho though. The point is, once you get past the brilliant touch, of you’re a top side looking for a left winger, would you sign Zidane? Would you give up Mané for Zidane if you were the Liverpool boss?

And by the way, just as a direct answer to this particularly weird question, yes I would play Zidane as a left winger instead of Mane, and I'd play Salah up top, Mane on the right, some kind of all-action offensive midfielder to replace Firmino's contribution, and occasionally I'd rotate Firmino and Mane based on form because they both offer different things and they've both had consistency issues. I'd do that because the influence Zidane can have is greater than Firmino's. Obviously the much simpler solution would be to simply put Zidane as an offensive CM - the role they're currently playing Keita in, and he's struggling to excel in.

I’m not saying managers only discovered stats. I’m personally not a fan of this statistical obsession either.

And I’m not saying Zidane didn’t contribute enough either. I’m saying he doesn’t contribute enough to be played behind 1 or 2 strikers today (I.e, 10 role). All good him playing as an 8 or 11 or whatever. But as a 10, he’d either need to do more of the 9s job than he did, or more of the 8s job than he did today.

And I’m not sure it’s a worse consequence of the era either. Zidane was the standard until Messi Ronaldo came along and raised it. They are better players than he was. It would have been far more of a shame if those players did not emerge due to teams not playing like that and favouring a 10.

It's very hard to know what you meant when you said this:

Ultimately though, did they con us all? Because of their often extreme levels of natural footballing ability, they were seen as essential 10/15/20 years ago. However, this statistical era (which I absolutely despise) has maybe exposed them.

The statistical era exposed them, how? The fans' opinions are totally irrelevant. The managers are the ones who now don't favour systems that allow them to play. I don't see any link between the current managerial preferences and the statistical era. And as a fan, my perception of Zidane hasn't changed at all due to statistics. I think those that do have a different opinion, and now think it's in any way useful to reduce Zidane to "7 and 11" is somewhat missing the point. They can't see beyond the current trends of modern football, which are no better or worse than previous trends, just different.

 

[Balu]

He will play there agreed. But point is, even he, as good as he was, would struggle to command the 10 role, in it’s purest form anyway.

I think some of my points are overlapping. I do agree with much of your points, and I’ve said 10s have adapted their roles. Ozil can’t play cm though, and he’s perhaps the example I should focus on to make my point. Within Ozil’s own career span, he was lauded and wanted by the top teams, and has reached a point where none know what to do with him. Others have had qualities to play in roles that ARE more useful for the team, but for those who are still just 10s, they are struggling. Coutinho does a lot of off the ball work, which enables him to be part of the three. Pogba is forever being told he needs to do more of it. Ozil cannot, and is a sub.

But Özil's flaws don't define the number 10 role? He's simply a flawed player who struggles no matter where he plays nowadays. I really don't get what has changed so much nowadays. The great 10's of the past have always excelled in various roles, from Pele and Cruyff, to Zico, Maradona, Platini and Gullit in the 80's, Laudrup, Zidane, Rivaldo, Baggio in the 90's followed by Totti, Ronaldinho and Iniesta (and I'm sure I forgot lots of other examples). And Messi fits perfectly into that group. They all have in common that they were versatile and played as wingers, wide forwards, 2nd strikers, false 9s, CMs, deep lying playmakers or wide midfielders. They all found their place in teams with "modern" formations, be it 433, 352, 442, diamond, 4222 or whatever their managers decided to do.

The likes of Riquelme or Özil, who struggled to be effective outside of that pure central attacking playmaking role with no defensive duties, have always been the exception at the highest level and I actually can't remember a really great club side built around a player like that. I also don't think the number 10 role is defined by that type of player considering the truely elite players who wore that number in the past.

 

[Member 93275]

Can't have this thread and Aimar not being mentioned. Aimar.

He had his flaws, but I don't care.

Matic said in an interview that when he was young and wanted to be a number 10, he gave up on the idea when he saw his teammate Aimar at Benfica.

 

[Rozay]

I agree with you that Zidane probably wouldn't play as a #10 in many clubs, because many clubs are so system-driven that they wouldn't want a traditional #10. However he would feature in every single club I can think of and be one of their best players in a range of positions, just like the "modern #10" does. Which is exactly what he did throughout his career. I also think there are a number of top clubs that are less system-driven, like ourselves, that might well play him as a traditional #10.

No-one is arguing against the point that traditional #10s like Riquelme are rare, and that's driven by tactical changes. No-one. It's just hard to understand what you're saying sometimes when you're asking the question whether Liverpool would play him as a left winger, when that seems entirely besides the point - they would obviously play him as an offensive CM. Once you reach that conclusion it's hard to figure out what your original point was. It certainly didn't have anything to do with Zidane as a #10 at this point:



And by the way, just as a direct answer to this particularly weird question, yes I would play Zidane as a left winger instead of Mane, and I'd play Salah up top, Mane on the right, some kind of all-action offensive midfielder to replace Firmino's contribution, and occasionally I'd rotate Firmino and Mane based on form because they both offer different things and they've both had consistency issues. I'd do that because the influence Zidane can have is greater than Firmino's. Obviously the much simpler solution would be to simply put Zidane as an offensive CM - the role they're currently playing Keita in, and he's struggling to excel in.



It's very hard to know what you meant when you said this:



The statistical era exposed them, how? The fans' opinions are totally irrelevant. The managers are the ones who now don't favour systems that allow them to play. I don't see any link between the current managerial preferences and the statistical era. And as a fan, my perception of Zidane hasn't changed at all due to statistics. I think those that do have a different opinion, and now think it's in any way useful to reduce Zidane to "7 and 11" is somewhat missing the point. They can't see beyond the current trends of modern football, which are no better or worse than previous trends, just different.

I’d repeat that me personally, I don’t judge players exclusively on stats, but the game in general places greater emphasis on them than they used to. Everyone. Pundits, media. This has shaped the approach to the game. I do think 7 and 11 would be seen as the bottom line today. As we agree though, for a player as good as Zidane, he would likely play in the middle. Maybe he’s not the best example, simply because he COULD play in the middle. The likes of Ozil can’t. I doubt say, Gallardo could. Or many others who I can’t be asked to think of now. I think with them, the bottom line at the top clubs would be ‘7/11’ - and they would struggle justification as 10s. Even as 11s where the alternative was 20/10 like Mané. I think they would be coming off the bench when teams are going more offensive or something.

I think you are right in your points though, and I don’t think we are that disagreed as such. Maybe we are too hung up on ZZ specifically, but I think even with him, we agree that he’s unlikely to play as a 10 today. If he can’t, worse players probably won’t, unless they can adapt.

 

[Brwned]

I’d repeat that me personally, I don’t judge players exclusively on stats, but the game in general places greater emphasis on them than they used to. Everyone. Pundits, media. This has shaped the approach to the game. I do think 7 and 11 would be seen as the bottom line today. As we agree though, for a player as good as Zidane, he would likely play in the middle. Maybe he’s not the best example, simply because he COULD play in the middle. The likes of Ozil can’t. I doubt say, Gallardo could. Or many others who I can’t be asked to think of now. I think with them, the bottom line at the top clubs would be ‘7/11’ - and they would struggle justification as 10s. Even as 11s where the alternative was 20/10 like Mané. I think they would be coming off the bench when teams are going more offensive or something.

I think you are right in your points though, and I don’t think we are that disagreed as such. Maybe we are too hung up on ZZ specifically, but I think even with him, we agree that he’s unlikely to play as a 10 today. If he can’t, worse players probably won’t, unless they can adapt.

I agree a lot with @Balu, and that's where we disagree most. That this is a new thing, brought on in any way by the media, the fans, the pundits. I think that's ludicrous, personally. They are irrelevant to everyone but a select group of fans. They're just a part of the entertainment product. In some other countries where people like Gruff were given a voice, or Tostao, I think they had some minor influence on the conversation which managers had to respond to. All UK pundits are beyond irrelevant because they are only there to attract viewers to their broadcast package.