Stars and Reserves Draft R1: Brwned vs Pat / Sjor Bepo - Finished 9 : 9

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?


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Brwned

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It would be awesome if players profiles could be updated as we write them out for drafts. Sort of an evolving database if possible. Of course it might be a lot of work for you to do alone inputting everything but if every draft we could all enter a profile for the players we pick the database could be built up fairly quickly I think. I know some people bookmark a tonne of profiles anyway.
The main thing with data vis and databases is a coherent and consistent data structure - once that's established then the only thing is to build an efficient process to input the data. Given the different approaches to player profiles on here it's difficult to achieve the first in any sophisticated / multi-dimensional way, but it's easy to do in a basic way. The time consuming part is collating all that info in the first place! After that everything's easy. I'll try it out with this draft and see if it's scalable :D
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Yeah, nothing personal really mate. Think everyone around here knows that I don't rate Ramos as a defender even in a modern pool, let alone all time. He's a great character and leader, but his pure defensive skills are really lacking. Varane on the other hand can move through the ranks but still his injury woes and being relatively young for a CB is not sufficient to rate him alongside the elite defenders of all time.

In terms of match up you can offset a bit him being a weakness playing against Reus who isn't also an all time material, but then again I recall Reus having pretty good games and record against Ramos?

In a sense Varane against Blokhin is a good fit, otherwise if Ramos was tasked with keeping him in check would've been game over to me.

Sane is also someone who is very hard to rate at this point within this company. I like him as a style and matches your attack very well.

Generally I think the balance is there and I really like your flanks and Laudrup being the centerpiece. Laudrup is the best player on the pitch and that triangle with him Salah and Modric is mint. :drool:

How do you see the midfield battle here? And generally containing Liedholm and De Bruyne having a big impact in transition?
I adore Reus but it's undeniable that injuries have prevented him from fully stamping his mark as an all-time great. He does have an impressive record against Ramos-led defences as you say (with Varane also playing in most of those matches), scoring 4 times and assisting twice in 7 matches. Sjor made an all-touches video of him in one of those matches, playing from the right wing:


He wasn't even at his best in that match, but still scored a superb goal and demonstrated the other qualities we expect him to bring to the table here, namely 1) great off the ball movement 2) the ability to counter at great pace from deep areas 3) top-notch work rate and willingness to track back and 4) his natural tendency to roam off the wing and probe for openings elsewhere. The last point is important as it will help prevent Enzo from being isolated and having to perform the one-man attack gig that he unfortunately had to specialise in for Uruguay at times. Moreover, our right wing is basically custom-designed for him to cut in off the flank, with Maicon capable of manning that wing on his own, and De Bruyne's tendency to roam out there and utilise his superb crossing ability.

Here's a decent highlights video of Reus' performances against Real:

 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Well, you do know I love a good counterattacking setup, and I see personnel that will excel at it in Blokhin, Enzo, both fullbacks, and Reus in fairness. In space, against that backline, they will run you ragged. Ramos will probably get sent off.

My only gripe with that side is the Guardiolesque approach to the midfield by including De Bruyne. The defence needs more protection, but then, the surgical outball de Bruyne provides may well make up for it.

On the other hand, I rate Laudrup very highly but don't see your frontline having enough punch for a rock solid trio. Kane just had a game with plenty of attacking impetus and domination for almost an entire half (and a decent Laudrup impersonation in Eriksen) and left empty handed against De Gea despite facing Jones and Lindelof and not Terry-Carvalho. Salah and Sane don't even have a sustained 3-year peak to speak of in my mind. That's ultimately my issue here, I reckon Pat/Sjors personnel will deliver on the tactical approach while yours will threaten more but are comparatively toothless.
Structuring our midfield was probably our biggest headache in fairness, which is why we were so relieved to get Mascherano ahead of more expansive options. In general, it can be tough to strike the right balance between protecting the defence and and ensuring you have enough creativity in a counter-attacking set up, but we're confident that De Bruyne and Liedholm have enough graft and defensive nous to make it work.

It's worth pointing out that for all their other talents neither Modric or Szymaniak were notable goalscorers, so it's not as if De Bruyne/Liedholm have to contend with a Robson-esque type who'll be making barnstorming runs from midfield into goalscoring positions, which is where they might struggle. Factor in Reus and Blokhin's willingness to support our FBs and I just don't see us getting critically overrun when we're out of possession.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.


Credit to @Olly Gunnar Solskjær for the picture.

Now behold as the much-vaunted goalscoring record of Brwned's attackers shrivels like a scrotum in an ice bath under the cold gaze of De God.

Harry Kane: 2 goals in 12 matches against De Gea
Mohamed Salah: 0 goals in 3 matches against De Gea
Leroy Sane: 0 goals in 7 matches against De Gea


 

Brwned

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:lol: you've got some good stats @Pat_Mustard, I'll give you that! On reflection, de Gea's saves in that game weren't quite as amazing as I remembered - it was just the sheer volume of them in key moments. The amount of chances they spurned really just makes it seem like de Gea psyched them out! No doubt he's a big factor here.

Of course, all Kane needs is one chance which Sane is well equipped to provide.

Salah's record is a bit misleading for me - Mourinho made sure he was watched very closely and Klopp's response to that in the last game was to use him as a decoy striker, which played an important role in both of the last two goals in that horrible, horrible game. Sane's goal record is not surprising given he's a winger (but somewhat surprising given his penchant for big game goals against the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal), and his game is about a lot more than that. Kane's record on the other hand is very illuminating, but I think it says more about our much-maligned centre backs than the wonders of de Gea.

Kane's only played against one of your back 4, I believe, but came out with 3 goals and 1 assist in 5 games against Terry. I think Salah only played against him once, scoring the 87th minute winner here (with de Bruyne making a rare appearance!). That game (and his equaliser in the return fixture) is partly what convinced Mourinho to sign him, and "fall in love" with him - just as a reminder for those who think he only appeared last season. And it's moments like this which show he's more than just a goalscorer, and that getting in behind a low block really isn't this insurmountable task - it happens all the time. Even La Grande Inter left space.

On the other hand, I'd say the German in goal isn't too shabby either...

 
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Brwned

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Alright, I'll pull together some final views on the key tactical battle - low block counter attack vs. high block aggressive possession - and the key midfield battle, invite @Pat_Mustard to give his view on the same, and then leave the rest of the conversation for some more fun chat about players :D

First up...

Low Block, Counter Attack - Is It Impenetrable?

It's hard to look past the Carvalho-Terry axis without thinking Mourinho, so I'll have a look at Mourinho's Chelsea, Mourinho's Inter, and Herrera's Inter for a broader reference point.

For me the greatest of them all is that 09/10 Inter team, a remarkable achievement and a defining moment in modern tactical progression - the last great defensive team. If you look at their games against Chelsea and Barca, the amazing thing is that Inter forced them both to attack exactly the same way - funnel everything out to the wing and deal with crosses, or deal with long shots. Despite the vast differences in how teams like to play, Mourinho's Inter really controlled the games without ever having the ball. One thing that distinguishes that team from many others - including Pat / Sjor's - is to be that compact in midfield, they always played with at least two defensive midfielders (Cambiasso, Motta / Zanetti) and often another centre mid (Stankovic), with Sneijder putting in a proper shift. A large part of that is because Maicon played such a big role going forward, and was always defensively suspect, so one of the DMs were always there to provide wide support - but sometimes even that wasn't enough cover for Maicon.

Mourinho's Chelsea are defined by that 04/05 team - most points in a season, most wins in a season, fewest goals conceded in a season. However the thing that's often forgotten is these are all league records. In the Champions League they were nowhere near as solid, conceding 4 goals against Barcelona and 5 goals against Bayern Munich in back-to-back knockout rounds - with both centre backs making rookie errors. The theme was still similar to Mourinho's next great defensive side - shut down everything through the middle, deal with the crosses and long shots. However they generally only had one defensive midfielder, and they couldn't shut down elite teams in the same way as 09/10 Inter. Instead they had Lampard in there to make the whole system work, supporting that front 3 and making the direct approach a very productive one. Rather than play through the midfield, they skipped out the midfield.

La Grande Inter were an absolutely brutal team to play against, and a fascinating team to watch. In their two European Cup wins, they only conceded more than one goal in one game in each season. In 63/64, the one game they conceded more than one goal in was against Dortmund, and the kind of goals scored are quite illuminating - a run in behind and a header from a cross. That run in behind came as a result of a turnover high up the pitch, something that's become a feature of the modern game. In 64/65, that one game was against Liverpool. The opening goal was a simple one, which I think illustrates something in and of itself - even a revolutionary defensive side with brilliant stoppers and a genius sweeper can still be undone by a well executed cross, run and finish. The 2nd goal was beautiful for its simplicity too. The third is yet another example of a great bit of ingenuity to get in behind a defence, exposed after one of their counter-attacks.

From that I would draw three conclusions, personally:
  1. To consistently shut out elite opposition in a low block, you either need two defensive midfielders or both fullbacks need to be out-and-out defenders. This isn't the case for Pat / Sjor, so the team is more akin to Mourinho's Chelsea than Mourinho's Inter - and Mourinho's Chelsea kept just one clean sheet in their 8 UCL knockout ties.
  2. To be lethal on the counter attack against elite opposition in a low block, you need a #10 supporting the front 3 high up the pitch - Sneijder supporting Pandev, Milito, Eto'o; Lampard supporting Duff, Drogba, Cole; Mazzola supporting Corso, Peiró, Jair. In this case de Bruyne and Liedholm are too deep to have that kind of impact.
  3. To break down a low block, going out wide is the natural attacking pattern - but the idea that the ball in behind the defence is entirely cut off is provably untrue. The most effective tactic to get in behind the defence is winning the ball high up the pitch, which is a core reason why Guardiola is able to play a top heavy team, and why Sane, Salah and Kane get in behind in spite of facing many compact defences. My team is built to do exactly that from start to finish, and the Chelsea trio do not have the tools that modern defenders have had to develop to combat that - they will be exposed.
 
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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
:lol: you've got some good stats @Pat_Mustard, I'll give you that! On reflection, de Gea's saves in that game weren't quite as amazing as I remembered - it was just the sheer volume of them in key moments. The amount of chances they spurned really just makes it seem like de Gea psyched them out! No doubt he's a big factor here.

Of course, all Kane needs is one chance which Sane is well equipped to provide.

Salah's record is a bit misleading for me - Mourinho made sure he was watched very closely and Klopp's response to that in the last game was to use him as a decoy striker, which played an important role in both of the last two goals in that horrible, horrible game. Sane's goal record is not surprising given he's a winger (but somewhat surprising given his penchant for big game goals against the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal), and his game is about a lot more than that. Kane's record on the other hand is very illuminating, but I think it says more about our much-maligned centre backs than the wonders of de Gea.

Kane's only played against one of your back 4, I believe, but came out with 3 goals and 1 assist in 5 games against Terry. I think Salah only played against him once, scoring the 87th minute winner here (with de Bruyne making a rare appearance!). That game (and his equaliser in the return fixture) is partly what convinced Mourinho to sign him, and "fall in love" with him - just as a reminder for those who think he only appeared last season. And it's moments like this which show he's more than just a goalscorer, and that getting in behind a low block really isn't this insurmountable task - it happens all the time. Even La Grande Inter left space.

On the other hand, I'd say the German in goal isn't too shabby either...

:D That last post was a bit flippant of course, but there's never a bad time to praise De Gea, and it's basically mandatory to redress having Terry in our team. I agree that in retrospect it wasn't even one of his best performances for us. That Arsenal match was obviously a standout, and his performance against Liverpool in the 3-0 win under van Gaal is a personal favourite - that match had a carnival feel to it but if he hadn't been in such incredible form we mightn't have even won it. It just seemed inevitable that every time they had a gilt-edged opportunity he'd save it.

Agreed on Ter Stegen. I think it's fair to say he doesn't have a portfolio of match-winning performances to match De Gea's yet, but he looks every inch a legend in the making and the latest in a long line of great German keepers. Maier, Schumacher, Kahn, Neuer, Ter Stegen with the likes of Illgner and Kopke in between...they've done alright for themselves in that position really.

That 5-3 against Chelsea was the first time I really took serious notice of Kane tbh. He was exceptional, as much with his all-around play (reminded me of Sheringham at the time) as his goalscoring, which has obviously been consistently great ever since. And fair point on Salah.

I'm losing track of the fact that we're supposed to be arguing here :lol:, so I'll reemphasize that Terry was on his last legs by then, unlike Ramos when Reus was turning in his impressive displays against him.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Alright, I'll pull together some final views on the key tactical battle - low block counter attack vs. high block aggressive possession - and the key midfield battle, invite @Pat_Mustard to give his view on the same, and then leave the rest of the conversation for some more fun chat about players :D

First up...

Low Block, Counter Attack - Is It Impenetrable?

It's hard to look past the Carvalho-Terry axis without thinking Mourinho, so I'll have a look at Mourinho's Chelsea, Mourinho's Inter, and Herrera's Inter for a broader reference point.

For me the greatest of them all is that 09/10 Inter team, a remarkable achievement and a defining moment in modern tactical progression - the last great defensive team. If you look at their games against Chelsea and Barca, the amazing thing is that Inter forced them both to attack exactly the same way - funnel everything out to the wing and deal with crosses, or deal with long shots. Despite the vast differences in how teams like to play, Mourinho's Inter really controlled the games without ever having the ball. One thing that distinguishes that team from many others - including Pat / Sjor's - is to be that compact in midfield, they always played with at least two defensive midfielders (Cambiasso, Motta / Zanetti) and often another centre mid (Stankovic), with Sneijder putting in a proper shift. A large part of that is because Maicon played such a big role going forward, and was always defensively suspect, so one of the DMs were always there to provide wide support - but sometimes even that wasn't enough cover for Maicon.

Mourinho's Chelsea are defined by that 04/05 team - most points in a season, most wins in a season, fewest goals conceded in a season. However the thing that's often forgotten is these are all league records. In the Champions League they were nowhere near as solid, conceding 4 goals against Barcelona and 5 goals against Bayern Munich in back-to-back knockout rounds - with both centre backs making rookie errors. The theme was still similar to Mourinho's next great defensive side - shut down everything through the middle, deal with the crosses and long shots. However they generally only had one defensive midfielder, and they couldn't shut down elite teams in the same way as 09/10 Inter. Instead they had Lampard in there to make the whole system work, supporting that front 3 and making the direct approach a very productive one. Rather than play through the midfield, they skipped out the midfield.

La Grande Inter were an absolutely brutal team to play against, and a fascinating team to watch. In their two European Cup wins, they only conceded more than one goal in one game in each season. In 63/64, the one game they conceded more than one goal in was against Dortmund, and the kind of goals scored are quite illuminating - a run in behind and a header from a cross. That run in behind came as a result of a turnover high up the pitch, something that's become a feature of the modern game. In 64/65, that one game was against Liverpool. The opening goal was a simple one, which I think illustrates something in and of itself - even a revolutionary defensive side with brilliant stoppers and a genius sweeper can still be undone by a well executed cross, run and finish. The 2nd goal was beautiful for its simplicity too. The third is yet another example of a great bit of ingenuity to get in behind a defence, exposed after one of their counter-attacks.

From that I would draw three conclusions, personally:
  1. To consistently shut out elite opposition in a low block, you either need two defensive midfielders or both fullbacks need to be out-and-out defenders. This isn't the case for Pat / Sjor, so the team is more akin to Mourinho's Chelsea than Mourinho's Inter - and Mourinho's Chelsea kept just one clean sheet in their 8 UCL knockout ties.
  2. To be lethal on the counter attack against elite opposition in a low block, you need a #10 supporting the front 3 high up the pitch - Sneijder supporting Pandev, Milito, Eto'o; Lampard supporting Duff, Drogba, Cole; Mazzola supporting Corso, Peiró, Jair. In this case de Bruyne and Liedholm are too deep to have that kind of impact.
  3. To break down a low block, going out wide is the natural attacking pattern - but the idea that the ball in behind the defence is entirely cut off is provably untrue. The most effective tactic to get in behind the defence is winning the ball high up the pitch, which is a core reason why Guardiola is able to play a top heavy team, and why Sane, Salah and Kane get in behind in spite of facing many compact defences. My team is built to do exactly that from start to finish, and the Chelsea trio do not have the tools that modern defenders have had to develop to combat that - they will be exposed.
You don't make things easy you bastard, first with the cool as feck write up presentation and now with such a well-articulated post when I just want to get drunker and spam videos :lol:. I'll retort shortly, but suffice to say I disagree with your premise and therefore most of your points :)
 

Brwned

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High Block, Aggressive Possession - Is It Suicidal?

This team is modelled on Guardiola's teams, primarily - the most ambitious and possibly most dogmatic approach. However this general approach has been a feature of the majority of top teams this decade, and has taken many forms. Klopp's superb Dortmund and (:mad:) Liverpool sides became more possession-oriented over time, but excelled primarily as an explosive, counter-attacking side in the beginning. Zidane's Madrid were much more controlled and targeted in their approach, but even the opposition had to admit its effectiveness. Guardiola's 3 teams have all had different qualities and different setups, but this was a constant at Barcelona, Bayern and City.

The reason for so many teams following this approach is clear - getting the players valued most in the positions they want to be in, as often as possible, while still maintaining balance and control. As Klopp and Salah described it...
“He knows that the kind of football we play suits him,” Klopp said after Saturday’s game. A few feet away, in the Anfield mixed zone, Salah was agreeing. “The way we play it gives us more chances to score,” he told reporters. “The way we play helps us a lot to be in front of the goal all the time.”
The players Klopp values most is Salah, Reus, Firmino, Mané - the aggressive attacking players. The most common midfield trio played during this period of ascendancy has been geared around giving that front 3 a platform to explode into action as often as possible. Guardiola on the other hand values his midfield playmakers most - Silva x 2, de Bruyne, Iniesta, Xavi. Players like Sané, Sterling, Pedro, Robben are there to stretch the pitch and create space for the playmakers to play and to provide options in the final third. In each case the same broad tactic is what allows them to fully utilise that creative and destructive talent while making it extremely difficult for the opposition to play through them. To do so you need players right across the pitch capable of playing in this aggressive style in a coherent, structured manner - and there's one position in particular that demands something very different to the usual requirements.

It's a common view that Ramos and Varane are not great defenders - or at least in Varane's case, not yet. However it's difficult to explain how that can be the case, and at the same time, they've both won World Cups and Champions Leagues while conceding very few goals at their best. Let's take their first CL title together as an example, in 13/14:
  • In the group stages they conceded 5 goals in 6 games - only 3 teams conceded fewer.
  • In the knockout stages prior to the final, they conceded 4 goals in 6 games - 1 more than the much-lauded Atletí defence, 3 less than Chelsea and 4 less than Bayern (the other semi-finalists)
  • In the final, they won 4-1 against that Atletí defence (conceding only from a Casillas screw-up on a set piece)
  • Overall, they had the best defensive record in the tournament - they didn't win on their attack alone
Varane didn't play all of these games, but he played throughout the tournament and excelled in the final. Since then they've gone on to concede a goal a game on average in the league - i.e. only a handful more goals than a typical league winner in the Premier League, throughout this decade. Not quite Sacchi's Milan, but comfortably on par with the next level of teams on a defensive level. You can argue they do not have good defenders, but you can't argue they don't have a good defence. And if you believe the former, it's hard to explain them both.

Everyone agrees that it is because Madrid play on the front foot, dominate possession, keep the opposition pinned back and generally concede very few chances, but somehow it goes unacknowledged that players like Varane and Ramos allow Madrid to play this way by facing so many 1-on-1 battles so high up the pitch and take so many risks in possession. They are exposed as individuals more frequently than most because they force themselves out of their comfort zone, every time, for the benefit of the team. They have the skills to do so adeptly, but you cannot defend as well as Terry and Carvalho in that situation. We know that, because for the brief period Terry was asked to do that, he had games like this.

The other element to consider is that it's an accepted truth that when a fast, aggressive attacking team comes up against a high block, they'll exploit it - that's just the natural conclusion. It intuitively feels right, and we can find evidence to support it - e.g. Liverpool destroying City last year. Yet we easily dismiss the countless games where the exact opposite happens - like the 0-0 this season amongst the same teams. The high block prevented either team from destroying each others' defence, because they struggled so much to get the ball out of defence into meaningful positions. This despite the fact that they have some of the best possession players in the league, and the counter-attacking power to rip any team apart.

Based on how little it's been spoken about, it seems it's easy to ignore the influence of pressing on the entire oppositions' game - their fluidity, chance creation, susceptibility to counter-attacks are all seemingly unaffected. However we've got a decade of evidence now that all of these things are severely disrupted by a well executed pressing game with the right players in the right position. Someone like John Terry is exactly the kind of player you want to trap into that system, and the only way that possibility can be avoided is if the opposition goes for the long ball almost every time.

That's exactly the scenario where Ramos and Varane excel, it's what denies the opposition any meaningful control in the game, and it allows the team to create countless chances with all of these creative players. In this particular case it also makes Liedholm and de Bruyne much less influential than they otherwise would be. They are forced to play the role of Cambiasso and Motta for most of the game, and while they have the legs to do so adequately, it's questionable whether they have the defensive nous to do it effectively. The alternative is a very risky approach that the manager needs to explain how these particular players would make it work - how to mitigate those risks, and what the implications are.

For a final perspective on this, here's Guardiola talking about some of the same issues:


That's all from me...look forward to getting your perspective Pat! :D
 
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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Alright, I'll pull together some final views on the key tactical battle - low block counter attack vs. high block aggressive possession - and the key midfield battle, invite @Pat_Mustard to give his view on the same, and then leave the rest of the conversation for some more fun chat about players :D

First up...

Low Block, Counter Attack - Is It Impenetrable?

It's hard to look past the Carvalho-Terry axis without thinking Mourinho, so I'll have a look at Mourinho's Chelsea, Mourinho's Inter, and Herrera's Inter for a broader reference point.

For me the greatest of them all is that 09/10 Inter team, a remarkable achievement and a defining moment in modern tactical progression - the last great defensive team. If you look at their games against Chelsea and Barca, the amazing thing is that Inter forced them both to attack exactly the same way - funnel everything out to the wing and deal with crosses, or deal with long shots. Despite the vast differences in how teams like to play, Mourinho's Inter really controlled the games without ever having the ball. One thing that distinguishes that team from many others - including Pat / Sjor's - is to be that compact in midfield, they always played with at least two defensive midfielders (Cambiasso, Motta / Zanetti) and often another centre mid (Stankovic), with Sneijder putting in a proper shift. A large part of that is because Maicon played such a big role going forward, and was always defensively suspect, so one of the DMs were always there to provide wide support - but sometimes even that wasn't enough cover for Maicon.

Mourinho's Chelsea are defined by that 04/05 team - most points in a season, most wins in a season, fewest goals conceded in a season. However the thing that's often forgotten is these are all league records. In the Champions League they were nowhere near as solid, conceding 4 goals against Barcelona and 5 goals against Bayern Munich in back-to-back knockout rounds - with both centre backs making rookie errors. The theme was still similar to Mourinho's next great defensive side - shut down everything through the middle, deal with the crosses and long shots. However they generally only had one defensive midfielder, and they couldn't shut down elite teams in the same way as 09/10 Inter. Instead they had Lampard in there to make the whole system work, supporting that front 3 and making the direct approach a very productive one. Rather than play through the midfield, they skipped out the midfield.

La Grande Inter were an absolutely brutal team to play against, and a fascinating team to watch. In their two European Cup wins, they only conceded more than one goal in one game in each season. In 63/64, the one game they conceded more than one goal in was against Dortmund, and the kind of goals scored are quite illuminating - a run in behind and a header from a cross. That run in behind came as a result of a turnover high up the pitch, something that's become a feature of the modern game. In 64/65, that one game was against Liverpool. The opening goal was a simple one, which I think illustrates something in and of itself - even a revolutionary defensive side with brilliant stoppers and a genius sweeper can still be undone by a well executed cross, run and finish. The 2nd goal was beautiful for its simplicity too. The third is yet another example of a great bit of ingenuity to get in behind a defence, exposed after one of their counter-attacks.

From that I would draw three conclusions, personally:
  1. To consistently shut out elite opposition in a low block, you either need two defensive midfielders or both fullbacks need to be out-and-out defenders. This isn't the case for Pat / Sjor, so the team is more akin to Mourinho's Chelsea than Mourinho's Inter - and Mourinho's Chelsea kept just one clean sheet in their 8 UCL knockout ties.
  2. To be lethal on the counter attack against elite opposition in a low block, you need a #10 supporting the front 3 high up the pitch - Sneijder supporting Pandev, Milito, Eto'o; Lampard supporting Duff, Drogba, Cole; Mazzola supporting Corso, Peiró, Jair. In this case de Bruyne and Liedholm are too deep to have that kind of impact.
  3. To break down a low block, going out wide is the natural attacking pattern - but the idea that the ball in behind the defence is entirely cut off is provably untrue. The most effective tactic to get in behind the defence is winning the ball high up the pitch, which is a core reason why Guardiola is able to play a top heavy team, and why Sane, Salah and Kane get in behind in spite of facing many compact defences. My team is built to do exactly that from start to finish, and the Chelsea trio do not have the tools that modern defenders have had to develop to combat that - they will be exposed.
Firstly, the more theoretical considerations:

1) We're not setting up with Mourinho's tactics here - the structure of the midfield and Francescoli at CF rather than a physical battering ram make that clear.

2) We bear few similarities to Herrera's Inter either.

3) "Predominantly on the counter" as per our write up is not indicative of a full-on park the bus tactic, and Brwned doesn't have the edge in individual quality to make that a feasible outcome.

4) I'm not particularly keen on making direct comparisons to other teams, but Utd in the 2008 Double-winning era are a more reasonable facsimile of us as a counter-attacking side than Mourinho's Chelsea, with the shared similarity of the great back four and hyper-mobile front three, with our side having greater workrate across our attack and a dedicated, ball-winning AM in Mascherano.

The practical:

1) Terry/Carvalho in the CL: Their PL goals conceded record didn't coincide with their best form in the CL, but 4 goals conceded in 8 matches in the CL in 2005-06 should evidence that they can carry their PL form into the CL. Not to mention Carvalho's imperious displays in leading Porto to one of the most unlikely CL wins of the modern era.

2) Bolded, because it's the most likely to gain popular currency and also the most demonstrably false - have a look at the example Brwned chose to illustrate Maicon's defensive lapses - he quite clearly passed Maxwell on to Cambiasso and busted a gut to close down runners in the centre. Let's not resort to slandering good defending here. Watch from 1:28:




 

Brwned

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I won't contest any of your points, but if we're going to move into slander territory I think it's necessary to clarify. We can agree to disagree on what degree of fault Maicon had, but the video I linked to includes both commentators saying they personally think Maicon was severely at fault - and it's referenced when Maicon scores the goal that he's "redeemed himself". It's not in any doubt whether they think Maicon made the wrong decision, looking at the same evidence. No slander involved, just different opinions - and one I happen to share with those guys...

In any case, I chose that video just because it happened to be one I was watching for tactical reasons, and the incident happened. I could actively search to better examples of Maicon being exposed defensively, but we both know it's true - I don't need to point score on that.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
and continued...

given the example of Maicon in one of the most important matches of his career, which was inaccurate, how about that Leandro/Junior combo in their biggest test? From Rob Smyth's minute by minute of Brazil vs Italy 1982:

Rob Smyth said:
5 min: GOAL! Italy 1–0 Brazil (Rossi). Can we edit that previous entry, please?! Precisely 60 seconds after that miss, Rossi has given Italy the lead! It was a beautifully worked goal. Conti circled lazily away from Cerezo near the halfway line, made 15 yards, swerved away from Eder’s token challenge and then swept a regal outside-of-the-foot crossfield pass to the onrushing Cabrini on the left. He coaxed an excellent cross to the far post where Rossi, given far too much space between Luizinho and Junior, planted a decisive header back across Waldir Peres from six yards. Could we have a major shock on here? As things stand, Italy will be playing Poland in the semi-final!
Rob Smyth said:
9 min: The left-back Junior is contemptuously dispossessed by Conti, who launches a counter-attack with a long pass to Rossi. Leandro gets there first but then haplessly miscontrols it straight into the path of the striker.
Rob Smyth said:
25 min:GOAL! Italy 2–1 Brazil (Rossi). What an appalling mistake from Cerezo! Italy are back in front! It all came from that Antognoni free-kick. Waldir Peres faffed around a bit and then threw the ball out to the right-back Leandro. He laid it square to Cerezo, 30 yards from the Brazil goal, and he knocked another lazy square pass towards a pocket of Brazilian players. The problem was that they were loitering with all the urgency of civil servants by the coffee machine and had no idea the ball was coming. It also bisected them perfectly. Luizinho was trotting upfield, Falcão wasn’t expecting the pass and it was too late by the time Junior realized what day it was. He dived in; Rossi beat him to the ball, ran to the edge of the area and thrashed a shot straight through Waldir Peres. I know this Brazil team want to be the spiritual heirs to 1970, but there’s no reason to play homage to Clodoaldo’s cock-up against Italy. That didn’t cost Brazil; this one might.
Rob Smyth said:
40 min: A languid relay run down the centre of the field, involving Leandro, Cerezo, Junior (whose nominal position of left-back really is little more than a basis for negotiation) and Serginho, ends with Falcão’s first-time shot from the edge of the area being deflected wide. The resulting corner from Eder flashes right across the face of goal with Zoff flapping.
Rob Smyth said:
75 min: GOAL!!! Brazil 2–3 Italy (Rossi). This is unbelievable! Italy are in front again and Rossi has a hat-trick! They had been on their knees since Brazil’s equaliser and then they scored out of nothing. Antognoni’s deep cross was headed behind a little needlessly by Cerezo. Conti drove it towards the edge of the area, where Bergomi, Zico and Sócrates all went up for the header. It came off Sócrates’s head and dropped to Tardelli, who mis-hit a volley through a crowd of players that was turned in from six yards by Rossi. Junior appealed for offside — but he was the man playing Rossi onside because he couldn’t be bothered to come off the near post. It’s the first World Cup hat-trick by an Italian since 1934, when Angelo Schiavio put three past the USA in a 7–1 win. Before this game Rossi had been hopeless! If Italy win, this astonishing turnaround will go straight into folklore.
Rob Smyth said:
88 min: ITALY HAVE A GOAL WRONGLY DISALLOWED! That should have been it. The tireless Antognoni started and finished the move. He launched another counter-attack before putting Rossi free on the right wing. Rossi ran into the area and slipped it back to Oriali, who played an angled pass across the area for Antognoni to ram home from six yards. The flag went straight up, but replays show he was being played onside, probably by Junior and certainly by Oscar. That’s a terrible decision and one we’ll never hear the end of if Brazil equalise in the last couple of minutes.
That's a fair summation of the biggest match of their career. Now who is more likely to get caught out here? Maicon and Benarrivo in a low-ish block against Salah and Sane (who has by far the least compelling peak of any player on the pitch), or Junior/Leandro in a high-ish line against Reus and Blokhin?
 

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A fair summation that includes no positive comments whatsoever, in a game in which Brazil "had them on their knees"! Come on :lol:
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I won't contest any of your points, but if we're going to move into slander territory I think it's necessary to clarify. We can agree to disagree on what degree of fault Maicon had, but the video I linked to includes both commentators saying they personally think Maicon was severely at fault - and it's referenced when Maicon scores the goal that he's "redeemed himself". It's not in any doubt whether they think Maicon made the wrong decision, looking at the same evidence. No slander involved, just different opinions - and one I happen to share with those guys...

In any case, I chose that video just because it happened to be one I was watching for tactical reasons, and the incident happened. I could actively search to better examples of Maicon being exposed defensively, but we both know it's true - I don't need to point score on that.
It always gets into slander territory eventually mate ;). I'm sure you won't have to look that far to find examples of him legitimately fecking up defensively, but I just don't see it there no matter what the commentators say. He's passed the LB onto Cambiasso, he tracks his man into the centre, and someone from the left side of the pitch scores, what more can he do?
 

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It always gets into slander territory eventually mate ;). I'm sure you won't have to look that far to find examples of him legitimately fecking up defensively, but I just don't see it there no matter what the commentators say. He's passed the LB onto Cambiasso, he tracks his man into the centre, and someone from the left side of the pitch scores, what more can he do?
I don't think he tracks his man into the centre, I think he's caught in two minds, makes the wrong decision and then tries to recover and looks like a headless chicken. That's what drew the commentators' attention. He makes one step towards Keita and then realises Maxwell is the real danger, can't get to him, and then watches the ball run past him from the cross when it looks like he could have reached it if he was alert.

Ultimately I think the mistake was made long before that. As soon as the pass is made, Cambiasso is never getting to him. He has to see that straight away and go to Maxwell. Their whole tactic was built around funnelling them out wide, but not letting them get in behind - it worked really well almost all the time. In this case he was the weak link in that chain and I think that happened relatively often. His attacking contribution just made up for it.
 

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
A fair summation that includes no positive comments whatsoever, in a game in which Brazil "had them on their knees"! Come on :lol:
Well I'm blatantly only going to include the shite bits FFS :lol:. There's some positives there but they'll be massively outweighed by the negatives.

I don't think he tracks his man into the centre, I think he's caught in two minds, makes the wrong decision and then tries to recover and looks like a headless chicken. That's what drew the commentators' attention. He makes one step towards Keita and then realises Maxwell is the real danger, can't get to him, and then watches the ball run past him from the cross when it looks like he could have reached it if he was alert.

Ultimately I think the mistake was made long before that. As soon as the pass is made, Cambiasso is never getting to him. He has to see that straight away and go to Maxwell. Their whole tactic was built around funnelling them out wide, but not letting them get in behind - it worked really well almost all the time. In this case he was the weak link in that chain and I think that happened relatively often. His attacking contribution just made up for it.
I disagree regarding the mistake, and severely doubt Maicon cock ups were a regular allowance in Jose's set up. He had Zanetti ready to step into his best position. If Maicon was that awful surely he'd have just subbed him in?
 

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Well I'm blatantly only going to include the shite bits FFS :lol:. There's some positives there but they'll be massively outweighed by the negatives.



I disagree regarding the mistake, and severely doubt Maicon cock ups were a regular allowance in Jose's set up. He had Zanetti ready to step into his best position. If Maicon was that awful surely he'd have just subbed him in?
Like you mentioned earlier, Maicon's contribution to the team overall was huge - he was an essential attacking outlet. In the same way that Chivu's offensive deficiencies were acceptable given his defensive game, the opposite was true of Maicon. Only he was much more influential too. Haven't watched your video yet but will do tomorrow! He was great at one point.

I'm a Maicon fan, for what it's worth. I can't quote it because it's closed, but here's me acknowledging at the time the Inter team was "Maicon and Ibrahimovic + 9 others a lot of the time". And here's me defending him when he was being dismissed for having issues with Pedro, in that 09/10 season.

I think you could make a case for him having the highest peak of any of the fullbacks - if we exclude Junior's POTY season as a midfielder - but I just think he's always had significant limitations.
 

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Like you mentioned earlier, Maicon's contribution to the team overall was huge - he was an essential attacking outlet. In the same way that Chivu's offensive deficiencies were acceptable given his defensive game, the opposite was true of Maicon. Only he was much more influential too. Haven't watched your video yet but will do tomorrow! He was great at one point.

I'm a Maicon fan, for what it's worth. I can't quote it because it's closed, but here's me acknowledging at the time the Inter team was "Maicon and Ibrahimovic + 9 others a lot of the time". And here's me defending him when he was being dismissed for having issues with Pedro, in that 09/10 season.

I think you could make a case for him having the highest peak of any of the fullbacks - if we exclude Junior's POTY season as a midfielder - but I just think he's always had significant limitations.
That's fair and I was probably over-defensive about him last night - I don't view him as a perfect FB or anything, just a good defender for someone with that level of attacking influence, and certainly not more likely than his opposite number Leandro to leave gaps behind him. In terms of peak he probably has the clearest edge over his direct opponent of any player on the pitch, with Sane at City yet to establish anything like the influence Maicon had for Inter's Treble-winners, and also making little impression for Germany in comparison to a Maicon who kept peak Dani Alves out of Brazil's team for long periods.
 
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Brwned

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That's fair and I was probably over-defensive about him last night - I don't view him as a perfect FB or anything, just a good defender for someone with that level of attacking influence, and certainly not more likely than his opposite number Leandro to leave gaps behind him. In terms of peak he probably has the clearest edge over his direct opponent of any player on the pitch, with Sane at City yet to establish anything like the influence Maicon had for Inter's Treble-winners, and also making little impression for Germany in comparison to a Maicon who kept peak Dani Alves out of Brazil's team for long periods.
I'm really surprised how Leandro's perceived on here. Is there some draft game were someone like antohan just kept hitting the same note about some particular horror performance, or has this just been a gradually growing consensus? I can't imagine people have seen much of him for Flamengo, and he was generally very good in '82. It's hard to imagine how he could be named the best centre back in the league while also being viewed as a leaky fullback. If you try and imagine Maicon playing as a centre back at his peak, you wouldn't think he'd impress many people.

The Sane vs. Maicon one is the hardest battle to think through for me. My instinctive reaction is that if you put Sane from right now against Maicon from a decade ago, there's a good chance Sane would embarrass him on a number of occasions. Pedro's lack of experience didn't stop him from showing Maicon a thing or two in his debut season, for example:




The question is how are you supposed to process that "3 year peak" rule of thumb that's been established on this draft. The way @antohan described it, Sané doesn't have a three year peak so he's basically a non-entity. That doesn't fit well with the reality of Pedro in that game - emerging attackers have exposed established world class players many, many times before. It doesn't seem to fit the premise of the draft either - what's the point of including a young player option, if young players are essentially disqualified on the basis of their naturally shorter peaks?

My view is that Sané has a legitimate 2 year peak. He was already making the difference against Arsenal and Spurs midway through 16/17, scoring wonder goals against Liverpool by last season, and in the last month has reiterated how lethal he can be against all opposition. Throughout that peak he has not established himself as one of the best players in the league, like de Bruyne, but he has established himself as one of the best wingers in the world. Maicon's peak was a couple of levels above that, but I think he similarly only had a 2 year peak. During that 2 year peak he was vulnerable to the kind of player that Sané was, as almost every other fullback is - his combination of speed, directness and trickery are incredibly difficult to deal with.

So I'd view it as a noticeable gap in career peaks, but still a match-up that would see young Sané exposing Maicon on a number of occasions.
 

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Impressed with the calibre of the debate so far lads.

A lot of support for @Brwned's approach in choosing the right personnel for those tactics. It's very difficult to play an aggressively high line which is why so few defenders in history have any sort of credible track record and haven't been hopelessly embarrassed. But pulling it off makes a huge difference in enabling a team to positionally dominate a game. Within this pool that back four is almost as good as you could get in defending high and commanding the ball.

Can't quite split it now though, @Pat_Mustard and @Šjor Bepo have a really solid back six for combatting that approach.

In the Maicon/Cambiasso/Maxwell scenario above it's hard to say who is at fault without knowing what happened a few seconds earlier. Has Cambiasso been rinsed from a safe position or was he trying to put out a fire that was growing and which Maicon should have tried to shut off before it blew up on the bye line?
 

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Great game lads. Very tough to separate myself and well argued on both sides.

This goes down to keeper tie breaker.

And the panel of judges including harms, Raees, antohan and myself have counted the votes.

The winner is...
 

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Great game lads. Very tough to separate myself and well argued on both sides.

This goes down to keeper tie breaker.

And the panel of judges including harms, Raees, antohan and myself have counted the votes.

The winner is...
Sjor didn't vote so Pat's team wins?
 

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I couldn't vote in this one was too close, great to see Szymaniak getting picked again, one of hidden gems that doesn't get picked as often as he should.
 

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.
 
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Brwned

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Sjor voted for Brwned and Brwned voted for S/P.
:lol: Wait, so if Pat voted for himself, isn't it a 9-9 draw? In which case, I'm gonna throw this one out there...

Was going to vote for team brwned, missed it by six minutes!
Seems odd not to consider it given such tight margins in the score and the timings. @Pat_Mustard, do you have any thoughts? I honestly think the vote should be counted..and I'm pretty sure you can find me arguing that point on behalf of others in drafts from years ago. I'm cool with whatever you think is fair, I just think it would be wrong for it to be ignored...
 
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The question is how are you supposed to process that "3 year peak" rule of thumb that's been established on this draft. The way @antohan described it, Sané doesn't have a three year peak so he's basically a non-entity. That doesn't fit well with the reality of Pedro in that game - emerging attackers have exposed established world class players many, many times before. It doesn't seem to fit the premise of the draft either - what's the point of including a young player option, if young players are essentially disqualified on the basis of their naturally shorter peaks?
Yes we go only by the rules which have been decided on before and the OP is not talking about 3 year peaks at any point

Young Player Bonus:

Y4. All young players are judged based on the performance level they have shown so far, not based on their potential. This means a CF who has scored 10 goals in a full season should be rated on the same level as a 28 years old striker who scores 10 goals in a season.
The performance level shown by Sane is that of a winger with 10 goals 15 assists in the PL last season, and he could even back it up with another 7 goals 9 assists in the PL in 20 matches so far.

I see no problem with Sane taking part in this draft, his performance level is easily good enough to have some kind of influence among this company here.
 
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Enigma_87

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Whoops not sober yet after a rough nigt so you have to excuse me :lol:


@harms please delete your post :lol:

The winner is once again:
 

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great game @Brwned but now you know how Poch was feeling last weekend....outplayed in the first half(me posting De Gea picture), you destroyed us in second half(pat debating) and De Gea making a difference:wenger:
 

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Good game this with a good dose of handbags :lol:

@Brwned I do have a visceral dislike for Leandro (non-football, he manhandled a ballboy once a the Centenario, similar to a incident with a Chelsea player some years back). Excellent attacking fullback in the Brazilian mould (takes the inevitable risks but delivers width all by himself). Would have him about level with Maicon myself once you factor in eras, fitness, sports science, etc.

The issue is one faces Oleh Blokhin in a counter-attacking setup and the other faces Sane defending deep for the most part. Blokhin is a Ballon d'Or and positional GOAT in his element and Sane is a very talented and impressive young player who didn't make the cut for the last WC (rightly or not, same applies to Martial).

It's clear Sane could have a good game and I actually was of the idea he would be the hardest to control out of your front three (genuinely can't see the other two prevailing). But I had a hard time swallowing that the player with the most flimsy track record on the pitch would be the one settling it.
 

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Impressed with the calibre of the debate so far lads.

A lot of support for @Brwned's approach in choosing the right personnel for those tactics. It's very difficult to play an aggressively high line which is why so few defenders in history have any sort of credible track record and haven't been hopelessly embarrassed. But pulling it off makes a huge difference in enabling a team to positionally dominate a game. Within this pool that back four is almost as good as you could get in defending high and commanding the ball.

Can't quite split it now though, @Pat_Mustard and @Šjor Bepo have a really solid back six for combatting that approach.

In the Maicon/Cambiasso/Maxwell scenario above it's hard to say who is at fault without knowing what happened a few seconds earlier. Has Cambiasso been rinsed from a safe position or was he trying to put out a fire that was growing and which Maicon should have tried to shut off before it blew up on the bye line?
T'was a nice read, indeed.
 

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Also impressed by the quality of the debates. Certainly the best thread in this draft.

At first sight, I vote for Brwned, simply because the blue team seems to be a strikerless team but (1) I haven't watched the videos made for the occasion and (2) some of your posts deserve to be reread.

A lot of things to say, I will comment on Monday
 

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
:lol: Wait, so if Pat voted for himself, isn't it a 9-9 draw? In which case, I'm gonna throw this one out there...



Seems odd not to consider it given such tight margins in the score and the timings. @Pat_Mustard, do you have any thoughts? I honestly think the vote should be counted..and I'm pretty sure you can find me arguing that point on behalf of others in drafts from years ago. I'm cool with whatever you think is fair, I just think it would be wrong for it to be ignored...
As a rule I'm not a fan of messing with the poll timings by allowing votes to count after the poll closes etc. This match was a different situation but it's a good example of the bad-feeling and general messiness that can arise:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/wc-all-stars-chain-draft-round-1-crappy-vs-arbitrium.439045/

In this case though I'm happy enough with whatever happens as 1) MJJ only missed the voting by a slim margin 2) there's honestly precious little between the two teams and 3) frankly it's a big boost for the quality of discussion in the drafts overall if you stay involved.

So Sjor and I are both offically fannying out of making any decision on this whatsoever and turning it over to yourself and the mods to decide :) @Enigma_87 @Don Alfredo