Auction Draft: Round 1 - GSTQ vs. Arbitrium

[Deleted member 101472]

@Joga Bonito

Would you mind commenting on the game so I don’t think you have an agenda? You don’t vote on every draft game, but you do in almost all the ones I play in and 100% of the time against me. Don’t think we’ve ever interacted so come on in and give your take.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It’s clear enough to see how my team functions, with GSTQ it’s not a set up that absolutely compliments what we know about the players. Take his full backs for example, they are such a non entity in this game. Both their crossing ability means nothing since GSTQ wants to put together quick counters, and they’ll be too far pinned back to offer anything. Even if they do cross, I’ll win every header with Godin and Ramos.

You do realize that crossing onto heads is not the only thing wing backs do right? Who do you think Carlos and Cafu were crossing to in 2002? Ronaldo? Ronaldinho? Rivaldo?
Stop speaking like David fecking Moyes mate

which is even further highlighted now with GSTQ pretty much admitting that 3 of his players do not have to do anything defensively

My apologies for being honest about Zico and Ocwirk. I am not good at selling things like 'Alves/Alba will tuck in centrally to help the CB's defensively' and 'Silva will be remembered the better player than Zico'

 

[Ecstatic]

Maybe the most interesting game so far even I have liked Skizzo/Enigma.

I will comment in greater detail and will try to find a decision criteria to vote now

 

[Deleted member 101472]

You do realize that crossing is not the only thing wing backs do right? Who do you think Carlos and Cafu were crossing to in 2002? Ronaldo? Ronaldinho? Rivaldo?
Stop speaking like David fecking Moyes mate



My apologies for being honest about Zico and Ocwirk. I am not good at selling things like 'Alves/Alba will tuck in centrally to help the CB's defensively' and 'Silva will be remembered the better player than Zico'

Once against you reference the Brazil 2002 squad. Is that what you’ve tried to recreate here? Stop making stupid comparisons to players and set ups that have absolutely no resemblance to yours.

“Oh great guys, we have a tactics meeting, let’s go see what we’re supposed to be doing”

“fecking GSTQ, next he’ll be showing Franco videos of Phil Jagielka”

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Also @GodShaveTheQueen im not expecting them to always tuck in per se, just for them not to sprint back in a straight line and perhaps make a conscious effort to go and help out where the play needs helping?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Once against you reference the Brazil 2002 squad. Is that what you’ve tried to recreate here?

It's to understand how you think wingback's function.

Forget the game. What do you think Carlos and Cafu were doing in 2002 with no one to cross to?

 

[Deleted member 101472]

It's to understand how you think wingback's function.

Forget the game. What do you think Carlos and Cafu were doing in 2002 with no one to cross to?

Influencing the play to a considerably greater level than your full backs, mainly due to the fact that they were considerably better players. Which is the whole point. Your players don’t possess the skill set required. If you had those two at wing back, what do you think the score would be?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Also @GodShaveTheQueen im not expecting them to always tuck in per se, just for them not to sprint back in a straight line and perhaps make a conscious effort to go and help out where the play needs helping?

I'll leave your own quote here. Tell me how they are same

With no winger for them to worry about, they’ll not get isolated defensively and instead should be able to tuck in enough and help out

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I'll leave your own quote here. Tell me how they are same

Should be able to tuck in enough

Not expecting them to always tuck in

What exactly is your point here?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don't know how to respond to that without any explanation from you

Its just the way game evolved, you can get away with one player not doing the work but every team out there is having at least 9 guys actively participating in defensive actions.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Influencing the play to a considerably greater level than your full backs, mainly due to the fact that they were considerably better players.

Influencing how? There is no one to cross to

They might be better, but what skillset you think they have that Branco and Kaltz didn't?
Watch Branco's videos first before saying Carlos had a way more bigger skillset. Not talking about just quality but the actual skillset.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Its just the way game evolved, you can get away with one player not doing the work but every team out there is having at least 9 guys actively participating in defensive actions.

So Mbappe/Cavani/Neymar is not functional?

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Influencing how? There is no one to cross to

They might be better, but what skillset you say think they have that Branco and Kaltz didn't?
Watch Branco's videos first before saying Carlos had a way more bigger skillset. Not talking about just quality but the actual skillset.

Discussion over. They are. It’s a non point. I don’t respect the abilities of your wing backs compared to two players not in either of our teams so let’s not discuss it further.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Discussion over. They are. It’s a non point. I don’t respect the abilities of your wing backs compared to two players not in either of our teams so let’s not discuss it further.

Good, that is fair enough. You don't rate them, that is fine.

But you will be called out if you post things like all they can do is cross.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

So Mbappe/Cavani/Neymar is not functional?

Mbappe and Cavani do their work against top opposition.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think any team in general should be able to afford 3 men without many defensive duties.

Mbappe and Cavani do their work against top opposition.

Many is not the same as any.

I have the same Mbappe in my team, but it's not fair to count him as a significant defensive proposition.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Good, that is fair enough. You don't rate them, that is fine.

But you will be called out if you post things like all they can do is cross.

That’s not what I said. I said their crossing ability counts for nothing.

You have referenced what Cafu and Carlos did, and it holds no weight to your point at all. Your front two are perhaps the quickest number 9s off the mark in the last 30 years, whereas Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and heavier Ronaldo wasn’t quite as rapid. So naturally, Cafu and RC influence a game more based on tactics, but your tactics don’t leave any opportunity at all for your wingbacks to influence the game. It’s simple. Kaltz and Branco will be non entity’s.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Kaltz and Branco will be non entity’s.

Okay, it's 9 vs 11 then

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Many is not the same as any.

I have the same Mbappe in my team, but it's not fair to count him as a significant defensive proposition.

Obviously they wont do an Ozil but think you are underrating the work Mbappe and other modern forwards put in in both pressuring and keeping the team in a good defensive shape. I see no issue with Mbappe in that sence, was just focusing purely on what you said

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Okay, it's 9 vs 11 then

Exactly how I feel with some of the voting

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Obviously they wont do an Ozil but think you are underrating the work Mbappe and other modern forwards put in in both pressuring and keeping the team in a good defensive shape. I see no issue with Mbappe in that sence, was just focusing purely on what you said

I am not underrating it. A significant defensive presence has different ranges and you have to define your own threshold to say who is and who is not.

A Rashford, yes in my books. An Mbappe, not so much. A fair bit of running after the guy who has the ball is not significant presence for me. It's how football is normally played everywhere. Getting struck in is. Someone like Suarez/Rashford for example is so much more significant of a presence than Cavani/Mbappe.

Of course, no reason why we can't see and measure it differently, which is alright.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I am not underrating it. A significant defensive presence has different ranges and you have to define your own threshold to say who is and who is not.

A Rashford, yes in my books. An Mbappe, not so much. A fair bit of running after the guy who has the ball is not significant presence for me. It's how football is normally played everywhere. Getting struck in is. Someone like Suarez/Rashford for example is so much more significant of a presence than Cavani/Mbappe.

Of course, no reason why we can't see and measure it differently, which is alright.

Of course Rashford offers more then Mbappe but id call Rashford when in the mood a great defensive player while Mbappe would be a decent one(for modern standards). Compare both with someone like Savicevic or Hoddle and you see a big difference so yes, football is played like that everywhere but thats happening now. Back in the day you had a bigger percentage of Hoddle's and Savicevic's then you had Uwe Seelers.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Not sure if this will influence any votes but @GodShaveTheQueen just admitted via PM that he is Tuppet

Yes, I’m tuppet.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Back in the day you had a bigger percentage of Hoddle's and Savicevic's then you had Uwe Seelers.

Yea, that I'd agree with. Managers have evolved, tactics have evolved and because of that, players have involved.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Nice game @GodShaveTheQueen

Pleasure discussing that with you there.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Nice game @GodShaveTheQueen

Pleasure discussing that with you there.

Yea, that was a pretty good game mate.
Enjoyed the discussion all along with the below pic probably summing it up well

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Yea, that was a pretty good game mate.
Enjoyed the discussion all along with the below pic probably summing it up well

haha brilliant!

will be keen to see what you do with reinforcements. the spine is incredible

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Arbitrium

Apologies for the late reply but I rarely if ever comment nowadays if you haven't noticed.

I just preferred GSTQ team and I had a few issues with your side - the midfield balance seemed a bit off and I've never been a huge fan of Eusebio as a lone CF esp in here with Neymar and Messi as the WFs (Stoichkov/Rummenigge etc would have been more ideal imo).

 

[Ecstatic]

Excellent job guys. Some preliminary comments because there are other things which can be added

Zico-Ronaldo & True/False Ronaldo


Dani Alves & Messi would have a very strong impact here



Neymar & Alba: not the best duo

Alba: I enjoy playing for Barcelona more now that Neymar has left

"As I said before, I have more space to run into and honest, for me, it's much better.

I strongly rate Neymar who career peak was before February 2017


Kylian: always interesting for me to comment the player, maybe the most interesting player to exploit the passing skills of Zico. Without the ball, still some thing to improve and I would have made different arrows.

Kaltz is fantastic and Bonhof I don't know what to think of

Eusebio with a dedicated support player would have been better.

@Arbitrium should have kept Ronaldo and challenged @Enigma_87 @Don Alfredo for the Barcelona theme.

 

[Zlatan 7]

How do you see who voted? I didn’t think it was available to see.

Great match this! And really close to call, as you can tell by the number of shared votes and a close discussion.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

How do you see who voted? I didn’t think it was available to see.

Great match this! And really close to call, as you can tell by the number of shared votes and a close discussion.

Click the word “votes” next to the number

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Excellent job guys. Some preliminary comments because there are other things which can be added

Zico-Ronaldo & True/False Ronaldo


Dani Alves & Messi would have a very strong impact here



Neymar & Alba: not the best duo

Alba: I enjoy playing for Barcelona more now that Neymar has left

"As I said before, I have more space to run into and honest, for me, it's much better.

I strongly rate Neymar who career peak was before February 2017


Kylian: always interesting for me to comment the player, maybe the most interesting player to exploit the passing skills of Zico. Without the ball, still some thing to improve and I would have made different arrows.

Kaltz is fantastic and Bonhof I don't know what to think of

Eusebio with a dedicated support player would have been better.

@Arbitrium should have kept Ronaldo and challenged @Enigma_87 @Don Alfredo for the Barcelona theme.

Eusebio did have a dedicated support player, that was pretty much Colunas life!

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Arbitrium

Apologies for the late reply but I rarely if ever comment nowadays if you haven't noticed.

I just preferred GSTQ team and I had a few issues with your side - the midfield balance seemed a bit off and I've never been a huge fan of Eusebio as a lone CF esp in here with Neymar and Messi as the WFs (Stoichkov/Rummenigge etc would have been more ideal imo).

Thanks for commenting xxx

 

[Zlatan 7]

Click the word “votes” next to the number

Thanks

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Surprised with the hate Ocwirk is getting to be honest. I've always had him down as being an excellent defensive midfielder with good on the ball ability to dictate the play.

Its not hate just not a good matchup. But from I have seen of Ocwirk, his skill set doesn't fare well against Zico. His strengths were being strong, great in the air and great distributor of the ball but he didn't look particularly quick or agile. That's a very favorable matchup for Zico for me. I can see Zico's close control, changes of pace and direction frustrating Clockwock all match.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

His strengths were being strong, great in the air and great distributor of the ball but he didn't look particularly quick or agile. That's a very favorable matchup for Zico for me. I can see Zico's close control, changes of pace and direction frustrating Clockwock all match.

It's not really obvious from the videos, but when I researched him before, his reading of the game was excellent. There is no need for him to be twisting and turning as fast as Zico. His tackling was exceptional and I recall quotes about this timing of them. And being a old school centre half, he's used to facing 5 man attacks. I can see him cutting off passing lanes between Zico and mitigating the quick counter through the middle a lot, esp in dealing with crosses from the wingbacks.

I do rate Zico better and think any DM would have a hard time keeping him quiet, but Ocwirk would a lot in not letting him run rampant.

 

[Ecstatic]

Surprised with the hate Ocwirk is getting to be honest. I've always had him down as being an excellent defensive midfielder with good on the ball ability to dictate the play.

We had this discussion in the past.

Players we don't know and players of Ancient times (Ocwirk) are more subject to underrating.

It's like Monti - one of the Legends from an historical standpoint, great resume, great rankings.. - but I struggled to be very excited when I see that picture

Ocwirck is another story: some videos are available and he's brilliant

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It's not really obvious from the videos, but when I researched him before, his reading of the game was excellent. There is no need for him to be twisting and turning as fast as Zico. His tackling was exceptional and I recall quotes about this timing of them. And being a old school centre half, he's used to facing 5 man attacks. I can see him cutting off passing lanes between Zico and mitigating the quick counter through the middle a lot, esp in dealing with crosses from the wingbacks.
I do rate Zico better and think any DM would have a hard time keeping him quiet, but Ocwirk would a lot in not letting him run rampant.

I think you are heavily underestimating just how hard it was to stop Zico. Although your comments don't surprise me because I feel like you underrate no.10s in general (or overrate how effective some DM are like Stiles I feel you consistently overrate esp. against Platini)

Its not remotely as simple as just being good at tackling and positioning. In the 1970s Brazil was filled with defensive mids of that type (Batista, Chicão). Zico was a force of nature and players that didn't have world class agility, quickness were not that effective in stopping him. I've seen a fair few videos of Ocwirk and his timing wasn't exactly impeccable.
I watch Zico and I watch Ocwirk and I can see Zico embarrassing him more frequently than not.

 

[Ecstatic]

@oneniltothearsenal

Everybody knows players like Maradona and Zico are just unplayable.

The duo Zico/Nunes was superb

Zico+fast striker: winning strategy

 

[sincher]

Why? Because, its a 3-5-2?

Firstly, he has 2 forwards who will always tend to cut in. That plays straight into the 3-5-2 tactic.

If there are overlaps and doubling up, how the 3-5-2 works is one man tracks the overlapper (my wing back) and one man takes care of the inverted forward (my wide CB)

Also, do be fair and let me know what you think of my attack against his defence and DM

Your attack is spicy alright, but their defence might cope with it. Yours is too weak on the flanks and Neymar and Messi would probably exploit that. IMNSHO.