Fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris | 15th April 2019

[Revaulx]

'Ongoing maintenance' is the fact of these cathedrals throughout their entire history. You'd be hard pushed to find a time in the entire history of these buildings where something isn't being fixed, enlarged, or rebuilt. The current state of Notre Dame is the result of a dispute about who should pay for repairs rather than a deliberate policy. This article covers it: http://time.com/4876087/notre-dame-cathedral-is-crumbling/

Oh I agree. It’s just that occasional big projects tend to be more effective (and cost effective) than little-and-often type repairs, although that can appear counterintuitive.

That’s an interesting article. The relationship between the Church and the State in France has been a fraught one for centuries, and many devout French catholics have long felt a degree of ambivalence towards the institution of the Church, while also believing that the State’s pursuit of secularism has occasionally bordered on persecution. All Church property was nationalised in 1905 by a secularist government, which gave little thought to the ongoing expenditure it was committing itself to.

 

[R.N7]

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Oh I agree. It’s just that occasional big projects tend to be more effective (and cost effective) than little-and-often type repairs, although that can appear counterintuitive.

That’s an interesting article. The relationship between the Church and the State in France has been a fraught one for centuries, and many devout French catholics have long felt a degree of ambivalence towards the institution of the Church, while also believing that the State’s pursuit of secularism has occasionally bordered on persecution. All Church property was nationalised in 1905 by a secularist government, which gave little thought to the ongoing expenditure it was committing itself to.

It's not like Vatican is strapped for cash. Should be split between Vatican, Govt and some independent fundraising.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

From what I can gather it's already had $300m pledged by billionaires looking to put their name on a spire.

 

[onemanarmy]

From what I can gather it's already had $300m pledged by billionaires looking to put their name on a spire.

It's around 700m at the moment. L'oréal, Total, LVMH, Artemis and others are donating 100 to 200m.

 

[Adisa]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[De Portago]

That whole documentary is an absolute masterpiece.

 

[GhastlyHun]

From what I can gather it's already had $300m pledged by billionaires looking to put their name on a spire.

It's a time-honored tradition. Look around old churches anywhere, you'll find the names of some rich family or other who made generous donations to get a crypt/memorial stone/whatever in there.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The state of people thinking that an 800 year old stone building was going to be consumed by fire.

 

[Stookie]

Whilst it’s sad that an iconic building has gone up and it’s nice that people have donated to see it rebuilt surely that money could be used for more good than that?

 

[nimic]

Whilst it’s sad that an iconic building has gone up and it’s nice that people have donated to see it rebuilt surely that money could be used for more good than that?

Maybe, but with that attitude nothing is ever going to get done since there's always a more worthy cause. The classic example is people getting stick for donating to animal rescue foundations when there's people starving in X country.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

It's not like Vatican is strapped for cash. Should be split between Vatican, Govt and some independent fundraising.

Given the money the Catholic church has they can and should pay for the lot themselves.

 

[Ban]

Given the money the Catholic church has they can and should pay for the lot themselves.

I'm not even sure they own it. I read somewhere many churches were nationalized. Could be wrong of course.

 

[Cheesy]

An odd comment as the fire happened during restoration work!

This does seem to be happening a lot these days though. The Cutty Sark and Glasgow School of Art both suffered disastrous fires during restoration work, the latter shortly before a new fire protection system was due to be commissioned. I hope that Manchester Town Hall (closed for six years for major work) doesn’t suffer the same fate

GSA was especially weird since it was the second major fire there in recent years. Sauchiehall Street is still a mess.

 

[Penna]

I'm not even sure they own it. I read somewhere many churches were nationalized. Could be wrong of course.

You're right, it's owned by the state. The Catholic church uses the building and therefore pays the people who work there - but it doesn't own the building.

 

[Red Defence]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Ekkie Thump]

This gives you a better idea of the interior:

 

[Loublaze]

Its a beautiful, ornate and fine work of architecture but I don't get all this outpouring of grief on other platforms, even from people who hate Catholicism. Yes its not all about religion, yes its a huge tourist attraction, but this is also a monument that was after all built on the blood, sweat and high taxes of poverty stricken people.

It also housed corrupt catholic priests who committed all kinds of scandalous acts there from the dark ages and beyond. Its easily a symbol of historic oppression and forced indoctrination to me, but I guess the passage of time is kind on people and places, and thus renders that thought pointless in the eyes of many who don't see beyond the beauty of these imposing behemoths.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Its a beautiful, ornate and fine work of architecture but I don't get all this outpouring of grief on other platforms, even from people who hate Catholicism. Yes its not all about religion, yes its a huge tourist attraction, but this is also a monument that was after all built on the blood, sweat and high taxes of poverty stricken people.

It also housed corrupt catholic priests who committed all kinds of scandalous acts there from the dark ages and beyond. Its easily a symbol of historic oppression and forced indoctrination to me, but I guess the passage of time is kind on people and places, and thus renders that thought pointless in the eyes of many who don't see beyond the beauty of these imposing behemoths.

There are mass graves underneath the Great Wall of China, where the bones of indentured servants/slaves who built it lay. If that very basic structure by modern standard were to fall tomorrow you’ll get much the same outpouring of grief.

Things like the Vatican, Notre Dame, Taj Mahal, the Forbidden City etc... are symbols of opulence built on exploitation and oppression, yes, but they are also memories, our link into the past that remind us not only of the suffering but also the ingenuity and creativity of the people who built them. I think for anyone with a passing interest in history/art/architecture, it should be cause enough to mourn the loss.

 

[Loublaze]

There are mass graves underneath the Great Wall of China, where the bones of indentured servants/slaves who built it lay. If that very basic structure by modern standard were to fall tomorrow you’ll get much the same outpouring of grief.

Things like the Vatican, Notre Dame, Taj Mahal, the Forbidden City etc... are symbols of opulence built on exploitation and oppression, yes, but they are also memories, our link into the past that remind us not only of the suffering but also the ingenuity and creativity of the people who built them. I think for anyone with a passing interest in history/art/architecture, it should be cause enough to mourn the loss.

Good post and I mostly agree. I love history, but as someone who grew up Catholic and became an atheist in adulthood I just feel really indifferent about this and I think its important for people to acknowledge the dark history of these structures more.

The construction of religious buildings like this for an institution which still largely refuses to own up to its past, recent and probably even ongoing misdeeds just served to further strengthen the indoctrination of believers with long lasting implications on modern society.

I also think of all the wasted resources that could've gone to technological advances. Its partly because of useless structures like this that we're so far behind in our progress as humans. The opulence and the beauty doesn't negate that for me.

 

[2cents]

Good post and I mostly agree. I love history, but as someone who grew up Catholic and became an atheist in adulthood I just feel really indifferent about this and I think its important for people to acknowledge the dark history of these structures more.

The construction of religious buildings like this for an institution which still largely refuses to own up to its past, recent and probably even ongoing misdeeds just served to further strengthen the indoctrination of believers with long lasting implications on modern society.

I also think of all the wasted resources that could've gone to technological advances. Its partly because of useless structures like this that we're so far behind as humans. The opulence and the beauty doesn't negate that for me.

Posts like this make me a conservative.

 

[Loublaze]

Posts like this make me a conservative.

Go ahead and do it. MAGA innit

 

[2cents]

Go ahead and do it. MAGA innit

It’s not a criticism of you or anything to do with the politics of the day. Your post just reminded me how much I (personally) value the continued existence of symbols of certain age-old human traditions and experiences, whatever moral ambiguities surround them. I could never see a place like Notre Dame as a “useless structure” or reduce its significance to its aesthetics, but I appreciate there are many who do.

 

[Loublaze]

It’s not a criticism of you or anything to do with the politics of the day. Your post just reminded me how much I (personally) value the continued existence of symbols of certain age-old human traditions and experiences, whatever moral ambiguities surround them. I could never see a place like Notre Dame as a “useless structure” or reduce its significance to its aesthetics, but I appreciate there are many who do.

I respect that.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

I genuinely don't understand the appeal in architecture and buildings, when we went to la rambla my other half was so enthusiastic and passionate about it, I just couldn't replicate that feeling at all. It's just some buildings, I feel like I'm missing something

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I love old buildings and architecture. I really do feel a profound sense of history when visiting some. Notre Dame didn't move me that much, however. It had an arachnid kind of quality to it with those flying buttresses all round it. Some beautiful features of course but I thought it was a bit ugly overall.

 

[Tincanalley]

Mental thread.

 

[Ban]

Useless structure ffs..


Read some 'antifas' posts who were sad it didn't burn to the ground..

 

[Dave89]

Good post and I mostly agree. I love history, but as someone who grew up Catholic and became an atheist in adulthood I just feel really indifferent about this and I think its important for people to acknowledge the dark history of these structures more.

The construction of religious buildings like this for an institution which still largely refuses to own up to its past, recent and probably even ongoing misdeeds just served to further strengthen the indoctrination of believers with long lasting implications on modern society.

I also think of all the wasted resources that could've gone to technological advances. Its partly because of useless structures like this that we're so far behind in our progress as humans. The opulence and the beauty doesn't negate that for me.

As someone who grew up Catholic and still is one, i tend to value people over buildings. Can't speak for the man with certainty, but I'm fairly sure it's what Jesus would have wanted.

Also, https://newsthump.com/2019/04/17/gr...windows-to-ensure-a-quick-rebuild-after-fire/

 

[That'sHernandez]

From what I can gather it's already had $300m pledged by billionaires looking to put their name on a spire.

Where were these billionaires in the wake of Grenfell Tower? The outpouring of grief for a building with no residence is comparable to that of Grenfell Tower, where people actually lost their lives. I find it a bit disgraceful to be honest.

 

[Loublaze]

Useless structure ffs..


Read some 'antifas' posts who were sad it didn't burn to the ground..

I wouldn't give a damn either

 

[Jimble]

Where were these billionaires in the wake of Grenfell Tower?

In France, the country that the cathedral is in

 

[Ban]

I wouldn't give a damn either

Thats nice.

 

[That'sHernandez]

In France, the country that the cathedral is in

Do you think they’d be donating the same sums of money to the families who lost their homes and loved ones in a fire in a Parisian tower block?

 

[Kinsella]

I also think of all the wasted resources that could've gone to technological advances. Its partly because of useless structures like this that we're so far behind in our progress as humans. The opulence and the beauty doesn't negate that for me.

That's a moronic claim.

 

[ChrisNelson]

I've seen lots of people complaining on social media about what certain people are spending their own hard earned money on. If they want to donate hundred of millions of Euros to a church that's been destroyed then that's their business.

Yes people are making the argument that the money would be better spent solving human problems rather than a building but at the end of the day it's none of our business - especially outside of France.

If you scale it down, the same people who are complaining will probably spend £15 this weekend on a bottle of gin and an Easter egg, money that could just as easily have gone to feed some starving children. But again, their choice....

 

[NinjaFletch]

Posts like this make me a conservative.

It’s not a criticism of you or anything to do with the politics of the day. Your post just reminded me how much I (personally) value the continued existence of symbols of certain age-old human traditions and experiences, whatever moral ambiguities surround them. I could never see a place like Notre Dame as a “useless structure” or reduce its significance to its aesthetics, but I appreciate there are many who do.

There are some strange hot takes from some of the decolonizing lot over the last few days. People who are literally employed as medieval historians arguing that we should let buildings be destroyed (or at least not actively restore/repair/rebuild them) because of problematic aspects of their history and/or because white supremacists like cathedrals if you like a cathedral you are a white supremacist.

There's no doubt they are right that cathedral spaces are, were, and could be exclusive spaces which marginalised people, but I'm not sure how you can go from that to being blasé about the loss of your source base, nor how writing history about the negative aspects of cathedral spaces changes the fact that these buildings are hugely important historical landmarks.

 

[berbatrick]

There are some strange hot takes from some of the decolonizing lot over the last few days. People who are literally employed as medieval historians arguing that we should let buildings be destroyed (or at least not actively restore/repair/rebuild them) because of problematic aspects of their history and/or because white supremacists like cathedrals if you like a cathedral you are a white supremacist.

There's no doubt they are right that cathedral spaces are, were, and could be exclusive spaces which marginalised people, but I'm not sure how you can go from that to being blasé about the loss of your source base, nor how writing history about the negative aspects of cathedral spaces changes the fact that these buildings are hugely important historical landmarks.

The weirdest thing, coming from supposedly informed people, is that it was built (long long) before colonialism was a thing.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

There are some strange hot takes from some of the decolonizing lot over the last few days. People who are literally employed as medieval historians arguing that we should let buildings be destroyed (or at least not actively restore/repair/rebuild them) because of problematic aspects of their history and/or because white supremacists like cathedrals if you like a cathedral you are a white supremacist.

There's no doubt they are right that cathedral spaces are, were, and could be exclusive spaces which marginalised people, but I'm not sure how you can go from that to being blasé about the loss of your source base, nor how writing history about the negative aspects of cathedral spaces changes the fact that these buildings are hugely important historical landmarks.

Examples?

 

[2cents]

There are some strange hot takes from some of the decolonizing lot over the last few days. People who are literally employed as medieval historians arguing that we should let buildings be destroyed (or at least not actively restore/repair/rebuild them) because of problematic aspects of their history and/or because white supremacists like cathedrals if you like a cathedral you are a white supremacist.

There's no doubt they are right that cathedral spaces are, were, and could be exclusive spaces which marginalised people, but I'm not sure how you can go from that to being blasé about the loss of your source base, nor how writing history about the negative aspects of cathedral spaces changes the fact that these buildings are hugely important historical landmarks.

Yeah I’ve seen a good bit of stuff like this from certain historians. I find it really hard to understand what motivates such people to research history.

Examples?

Here’s a quote: “White Heritage Sites in flames i'm not mad.”