Fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris | 15th April 2019
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I consider Notre Dame to be a museum rather than a place of worship. It's a place to see art and history (not least in the architecture itself). The same goes for most other churches/cathedrals/mosques/temples.
It's not something I'd cry over, but it is worthy of reconstruction.
I can see where some people are coming from in the sense that art is not more important than more humane causes. But art is intrinsically linked to what makes us human in the first place. We're not emotionless automatons - culture (and cultures) are important enough to us as species to be worth saving/preserving. In fact, there's a case to be made that without culture, there'd be no society and by consequence no civilisation.
Symbols matter to our shared experience, even if you don't necessarily agree with their provenance.
I'm saying this as an Atheist stuffing my face with chocolate eggs on Good Friday, so it'd be hypocritical not to believe that.
It's not something I'd cry over, but it is worthy of reconstruction.
I can see where some people are coming from in the sense that art is not more important than more humane causes. But art is intrinsically linked to what makes us human in the first place. We're not emotionless automatons - culture (and cultures) are important enough to us as species to be worth saving/preserving. In fact, there's a case to be made that without culture, there'd be no society and by consequence no civilisation.
Symbols matter to our shared experience, even if you don't necessarily agree with their provenance.
I'm saying this as an Atheist stuffing my face with chocolate eggs on Good Friday, so it'd be hypocritical not to believe that.
The last bit has to do with why people are posting "daft" means. As far as I know, I've only seen people make comparisons to similar landmarks and events across the globe that received no attention or funding.
Far more historical and meaningful sites just burned down to the ground receiving nothing more than a footnote in the media. It just exposes this divide that the west has created for themselves as more important citizens.
EDIT: and the people treating this like some massive world tragedy. Give me a break. This Notre Dam thing again just exposes those who live a sheltered life.
Again though, it’s because of people’s connection to the place (even if just from visiting), locality, most people knowing about the cathedral since being a kid etc.
So many people love to ignore this and look at it with black and white faux-logic and some strange bitter view though.
Also let’s not forget the people who are so annoyed about it all are calling out others for being upset or whatever. Many of these others will also be devastated and saddened by the other events that are now being thrown in people’s faces. It’s not one or the other.
Too many are desperate to be annoyed at someone.
Too many are desperate to be annoyed at someone.
You talk about “complete lack of coverage towards more historical buildings” Which buildings are you referring to here? And which “far more historical and meaningful sites” have “just burned down to the ground?”
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I think what I’ve enjoyed most is the people on my Facebook moaning about people’s choice of where they donate, when I don’t think they’ve ever donated to anything in their life
The problem is that if 3 people can donate hundreds of millions in a few hours then it means they also have the ability to solve homelessness and hunger and other issues, they just dont care about that stuff. What is says is that these people have far too much money that they didnt earn and it needs to be taken back via taxes or nationalization and then spent democratically. Theres no reason that a more just society shouldnt support the arts and build cool buildings, but whether people live or die or historic buildings exist or not shouldnt be at the whim of billionaires.
I’m not disagreeing with you, the people I’m talking about are the ones moaning at normal people like themselves, not the billionaires.
Ah, more robin hood solutions from the man himself! This is not the thread for your usual delusions.
Vatican is the richest religion in the world and pretty much earns tax free income. I don't see why they can't fund these themselves. I'm sure people would contribute more to Church for these renovations/upkeep. Vatican alone earns more than $100m tax free every year!
Tax the religious donations and use them to fix the historical buildings.
Edgar...
Thanks for your contribution
Thanks for your contribution
Well half the people on my newsfeed didn't have a clue about Notre Dam before this other than it being a tourist attraction in France. Also the "pray for France" stuff... what does that have to do with being close to the cathedral?
This isn't what I was talking about though?
Pray for France is stupid as feck.
I beleive, notre dam doesn't belong to the church, but the state of France but yes, agree with the church and with funding the reconstruction when there are more pressing matters. Priorities
You glossed over Carolina Red's response. You also completely ignored Bury Red's post.
He/she explained the huge advancements these structures brought to our knowledge in the engineering and architectural realms. This seems to have largely passed you by however. You also seem to assume that the people at the time didn't share both in the enthusiasm for the construction and in the desire to build something magnificent. It's easy to see that you're stuck on the motivation behind the projects as opposed to the effect of their existence.
Following on from that you claim that these edifices took up resources which could've gone towards other technological advances, and that it's partly because of them that 'we are so far behind in our progress as humans'. Where's your evidence for this claim? I don't have a progress-o-meter, but can you pinpoint exactly where we'd be right now if not for religion as a whole?
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Notre Dame belongs to the state but Paris diocese uses it for free in exchange of its maintenance.
The more I think about it the more I agree. Billionaires rich from the work of others choosing to spend their money on such a symbol for the PR or back slaps. Reminiscent of the likes of Warren Buffett and Rick Gates choosing their charities.
I haven't yet signed up to view the material NC suggested, and i've included a response for RB. Do you have any other evidence of your own I can peruse at my own leisure? Im not discounting anything and im open to learning new things. Even when I was Catholic, my understanding has always been that the church slowed down the progress of science and natural philosophy if it challenged their authority and faith at large.You glossed over Carolina Red's response. You also completely ignored Bury Red's post.
He/she explained the huge advancements these structures brought to our knowledge in the engineering and architectural realms. This seems to have largely passed you by however. You also seem to assume that the people at the time didn't share both in the enthusiasm for the construction and in the desire to build something magnificent. It's easy to see that you're stuck on the motivation behind the projects as opposed to the effect of their existence.
Following on from that you claim that these edifices took up resources which could've gone towards other technological advances, and that it's partly because of them that 'we are so far behind in our progress as humans'. Where's your evidence for this claim? I don't have a progress-o-meter, but can you pinpoint exactly where we'd be right now if not for religion as a whole?
I don't have a progress meter either, but im not going to sit here and believe the church was a true champion for progressive ideas when so many freethinkers were deemed heretics and executed or suppressed. The motivation behind the projects and their long lasting negative effects on mankind far outweigh the effects of their existence in my strong opinion.
I can't answer your question about where we would be if not for religion, but i'd like to think it would be a much more advanced place. A place at least where logic and science takes precedence over blind faith, adult imaginary friends, witchhunts, crusades, and excuses for murder, hate and genocide.
Great post, and thanks for the response. Im curious to know how the far eastern engineers and ancient Roman engineers influenced the present understanding of structural mechanics. Im not disagreeing with the last part of your response but I think you're being a bit kind to the Catholics. They were more than just odd episodes
Inappropriate joke
Why didn't god put the fire out?
Maybe it was Fire from Heaven in anger at the depravity of his soldiers.
Maybe it was Fire from Heaven in anger at the depravity of his soldiers.
What a ridiculous post. Do you pretend to be funny? or just attract attention by saying something out of place
There isn’t just the case that the money donated to the cathedral instead of living issues is a concern, but that the money is only donated when this occurs. Why is the heritage sector and those who work as conservators, archaeologists etc so underpaid and then we wonder why sometimes buildings fall into disarray and with the potential to succumb to disaster. If this money wasn’t donated but distributed into society then the people that will now be part of the restoration process will be valued more as well as other world issues aside from a historic building.
Good point, I work with heritage professionals and the sector is really under resourced, its treated like a footnote.
Is it a catholic cathedral?
Not funny. Serious. It's a fecking horrible organization that robs people and hides paedophiles.
Yes. Named after the Virgin Mary. Notre Dame = Our Lady.
So what I’d like to know is how much the Vatican will contribute towards rebuild of one of its most iconic buildings?
Can't deny that but I thought it was still sad seeing such an amazingly beautiful building on fire. On the other hand no one really got hurt and buildings damaged much worse were rebuild, so I'm confident it will get restored to it's former beauty.
Seems to be up to the French to pay for the repairs although I’m not sure why the Insurance companies aren’t paying. Unless it wasn’t insured.
My point still stands though, it’s an iconic church. Why wouldn’t they contribute?
Stuck paying legal settlements for the likes of Pell.
They pay for the staff who work there and the upkeep of the building instead of paying rent. They have offered technical and architectural assistance and could donate towards the repairs if they so wished.
Serious or not you're churlish and disrespectful.
You had a week to make the joke but curiously the "why your god does not avoid a catastrophe" appears shortly after knowing the events of Sri Lanka.
I think that you did it in bad faith.
Pedophilia and the plenty of Vatican mistakes has nothing to do with disrespecting a god or a faith.
If you want to piss off at least be brave and do it here: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/series-of-blasts-in-sri-lanka-killing-200.446714/#post-24001635
Oh I see, thanks for the note
Agreed. I'd rather 100 Notre Dames burn down to the ground than one baby dying of starvation.
That over one billion is raised so quickly for a building while there are human tragedies all over the world that don't get a fraction of this, is just truly disgusting.
What if it was baby Hitler
https://rewire.news/religion-dispatches/2019/04/24/the-case-against-rebuilding-notre-dame/
Finally seen an article that touches on this debate.
Agenda driven article.
Actually €100million has already - (actual french news)- been collected out of 650m pledged. Should be enough to pay the salaries.
Still clearing up. Several months of assessments to the damage and then they need to get quotes to see how much it will all cost to restore.
https://www.francetvinfo.fr/culture...-consolidation-avant-les-travaux_3539951.html
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color me shocked