Cal? yet again showing he knows nothing about football other than goalscoring stats.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Here's a poll that the evil and biased RedCafe mods didn't manipulate. Spoiler: Messi still wins
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Both side of the fence are ignorant fools. Its lauaghable reading both tbh. Go outside and enjoy life
I generally agree, Müller was much more than just a poacher, but top 10 of all time? I'm from Germany, he's been both our league's and national team's top scorer for ages, but I haven't even heard a German fan suggest he's that good. I mean, he's up against Maradona, Pele, the Ronaldos, Messi, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Zico, Puskas, di Stefano, Platini, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Laudrup, Matthäus, Baggio, Baresi, Eusebio, Garrincha, Best ... Those are 20 footballers already who I'd consider as clearly better than him.
Ronaldo overhead kick v Juve
Please tell me which goals you think are better than Messi's vs. Madrid in the SF
Bale overhead kick v Liverpool
Ronaldo v Porto
Zidane v Leverkusen
Ok, maybe Messi's just makes the top 5
I'm prone to banging the Müller drum on this forum, but I think the way he puts it there (hard working, good at many things, but fairly basic allround game compared to other greats) is pretty much spot on. Although what it means that an almost 1-goal-a-game player was a versatile, hardworking team player as well could be a talking point, if this thread was really about openly discussing players, which it mostly isn't.
What's tedious is the endless repetition of that same argument (and more dumbed down versions of it), in a discussion that's largely reduced to point scoring.
Depends very much on the criteria, I'd say. Many people in Germany would have Müller over Matthäus as the greater footballer, for instance (random example 1, random example 2). Same is probably true for a number of players you mentioned.
I guess the main factor is how high you rate being likely the greatest big game goalscorer of all time in a low scoring game. (Also how much one is aware that there's a lot more to say about Müller, contrary to his image.) But we already had a discussion where I remember our basic views being quite different.
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Edit: Talking about 10-20, not top 10
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These goals were made by the players who crossed the ball. Ronaldo, bale , zidane just put their finishing stickers.
They are not great goals, hence proved.
You're genuinely unhinged in your bias.
The fact Ronaldo and Bale both scored overhead goals in the same campaign shows that it's a far less difficult skill to pull off. Never mind the fact that elite players such as Andy Carroll, Trevor Sinclair and Christian Benteke have scored similar goals in recent years. Same goes for long-range wallops.
Now tell me how many players you've seen dribble directly through the centre of a team's midfield and defence from the half-way line and score, never mind in a CL semi-final. It's far rarer because it's a much more difficult thing to do.
It’s not just any overhead kick though, how often do you see an overhead kick perfectly executed like Ronaldo did instead of shinned like Rooney against City?You're genuinely unhinged in your bias.
The fact Ronaldo and Bale both scored overhead goals in the same campaign shows that it's a far less difficult skill to pull off. Never mind the fact that elite players such as Andy Carroll, Trevor Sinclair and Christian Benteke have scored similar goals in recent years. Same goes for long-range wallops.
Now tell me how many players you've seen dribble directly through the centre of a team's midfield and defence from the half-way line and score, never mind in a CL semi-final. It's far rarer because it's a much more difficult thing to do.
You also exaggerate what Messi did, he played a 1-2 to get past some players and accelerated past some, hardly ‘dribbling directly through from halfway line’.
I'm not 'back to anything'. In the real world, most people believe that Messi is the best player in the world. This is communicated on a very regular basis by mainstream media, and by vast swathes of people directly involved in football professionally. Have you not noticed this? Are you oblivious to this?
Let me give you an example:
After Messi scores his hat-trick goal (5:06), the commentators say the following:
Those sort of comments are made ALL OF THE TIME! Literally all of the time in the media. If you are not aware of this then you're living in a fantasy world, or you must live under a stone. It's absolutely unavoidable.
If it makes you happy to put your fingers in your ears, deny this, believe that the poll on this site has been rigged, ignore the fact that Messi is repeatedly proclaimed to be the best player in the world, and one of the best three of all-time, and quite possibly the best, and to continually raise daft arguments on here, go for it. You have every right to do that.
But it's not going to change the fact that most people disagree with you, even among Manchester United fans, let alone on people paid to give a credible professional opinion on football.
Quite, my mistake in thinking scoring goals is actually an important part of the match.
Betis!? Ronaldo got a standing ovation at Juve!
If you’re going to assume the media is always correct, perhaps you also think the ‘neutrals’ are all rooting for Liverpool.
Are you aware that people who work professionally in football, unless they are team-mates of Ronaldo (and even some of them have conceded that Messi is better), almost without exception proclaim Messi to be one of the best three players of all-time, and the best player in the world?Betis!? Ronaldo got a standing ovation at Juve!
If you’re going to assume the media is always correct, perhaps you also think the ‘neutrals’ are all rooting for Liverpool.
Are you aware of this, or not?
If not, why aren't you aware of it?
And if you are aware of it, don't you think that there might be a reason for it?
I mean, just days ago, Mourinho, who is hardly noted for praising opponents and people who have beaten him, described Messi as a "genius", stated that he is always getting "better and better", and named him the "God of Football".
Do these things just completely pass you by? Are you in such a state of denial that you just don't notice them at all?
Erm in all those times by the players I mentioned in the original post (bringing up a different example where someone shinned it when I never mentioned Rooney is odd); Bale (in the final), Andy Carroll, Christian Benteke and Trevor Sinclair have scored perfectly executed non-shinned overheads.
Go on then, give me an example of a player doing something similar, I can list plenty of average players who have scored overheads like Ronaldo's.You also exaggerate what Messi did, he played a 1-2 to get past some players and accelerated past some, hardly ‘dribbling directly through from halfway line’.
Saul's vs Bayern was even better.
Mourinho? The same guy who used to say that Ronaldo is the best until he fell out with him?
I do not think that overhead kicks are more beautiful than dribbling many players all by himself.
I am not arguing against CR7's Baloon D'or win in 2017 too.
Do you not want to get into a debate about the older generation because they don’t reinforce your arguments to detract Messi, like I explained in detail in my post?
Come on! I prefer Messi's goals over those goals too, but they were all fantastic! Trying to discredit the merit and beauty of any of these goals is ridiculous!
I assure you that, outside England, Liverpool is seen as sympathetic team and the neutrals overall root for them, specially in the final last year, the game against Bayern in this year and, specially, the game against Barcelona. ALL neutral football fans that I know were rooting for Liverpool because we are tired of predictability and would have HATED seeing Barcelona again winning the UCL, while Liverpool is a new face in recent years. Barcelona, Bayern, Real and Juventus are the teams that all neutrals wished to fall.Betis!? Ronaldo got a standing ovation at Juve!
If you’re going to assume the media is always correct, perhaps you also think the ‘neutrals’ are all rooting for Liverpool.
And Messi has deserved standing ovations from Real Madrid fans countless times.
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Gervinho v Cagliari
Zapata v Udinese
Dembele v Villarreal
Bonaventura v Fiorentina
Neymar v Dijon
That's just one quick look for 2018.
No, I don't know how old you are, but I prefer not to debate something I've only seen highlights of.
Mate, you’re literally the person who a few months ago said Gareth Bale was a better football player than Cristiano Ronaldo for fecks sake...
The tone of that post
Interestingly, the period in which he considered Ronaldo the best almost entirely correlates with his time at Real spent coaching him. I'm sure that's a coincidence though, Ronaldo humble as he is, would certainly take it in his stride if his own coach claimed somebody else is better...No way he would wreak havoc over a minor point like that.Mourinho? The same guy who used to say that Ronaldo is the best until he fell out with him?
I think Bale's overhead was much better and in a more important stage.It’s not just any overhead kick though, how often do you see an overhead kick perfectly executed like Ronaldo did instead of shinned like Rooney against City?
You also exaggerate what Messi did, he played a 1-2 to get past some players and accelerated past some, hardly ‘dribbling directly through from halfway line’.
It's one thing doing it on the counter against Cagliari or against Dijon, it's another thing doing it in a CL semi-final against Mourinho's Madrid.Gervinho v Cagliari
Zapata v Udinese
Dembele v Villarreal
Bonaventura v Fiorentina
Neymar v Dijon
That's just one quick look for 2018.
The likes of Bale, Greizmann and Mandzukic have all scored overhead kicks against top opposition in the CL the last few years. What Messi did was far rarer.
Alternatively he does think Ronaldo is better like he said and just changed his tune after he got sacked.
You're entitled to an opinion. Ronaldo connected much cleaner than Bale did.
Anyway, UEFA agree with me, it was Ronaldo's that won the goal of the season.
Mandzukic? The one where he controls the ball and then did an overhead kick? Seriously?
"What I consider is that in a team with fewer solutions, Ronaldo is a better fit because he provides many solutions," Simeone began.
"For a team which focuses on football, Messi is much better.
"We are talking about very fine margins of how a team plays," he stated.
"Cristiano can decide a game in a different way, he doesn't need ten attacks. He scored two headers against us and we were out," the Atletico boss said.
Simeone went on to speak of the subtle differences between the two world superstars.
"Both need a team but the differences are very small.
"Lionel, in an attacking team always plays better. The other [Ronaldo] can win a game in two actions, he simplifies the situations.
"Messi is mesmerising because he plays elaborate football.
"Leo plays in a team that compliments all of his talent. He always ends up finding solutions," he concluded.
"For a team which focuses on football, Messi is much better.
"We are talking about very fine margins of how a team plays," he stated.
"Cristiano can decide a game in a different way, he doesn't need ten attacks. He scored two headers against us and we were out," the Atletico boss said.
Simeone went on to speak of the subtle differences between the two world superstars.
"Both need a team but the differences are very small.
"Lionel, in an attacking team always plays better. The other [Ronaldo] can win a game in two actions, he simplifies the situations.
"Messi is mesmerising because he plays elaborate football.
"Leo plays in a team that compliments all of his talent. He always ends up finding solutions," he concluded.
Well, i mean you are NOT wrong, but thats still such a simple way of seeing it. Im one that thinks that Messi is twice the player CR7 but comments like this i dont know...
Yes, that goal doesnt happen without the perfect cross, but still, CR7's finish can only be made by top 10 or 15 strikers in Europe, its not like it was super easy or anything. Bale was better's though.
Anyway yeah Messi's goals are a different level. Hell, the one vs Bayern where he schools both Boateng and Neuer which both seemed unbeatable at the time was way better than the overhead kick.
he was joking.
The thing is he's not funny at all.
But you've just proved my point without realizing it. Why is Gerd Muller making the top 10 and not top 5 or top 3? He is the most accomplished goalscorer of all time, at ALL levels. His resume, is amongst the most accomplished in history, without even mentioning his Balon Dor. His goals and resume blow Diego and Cruyff out of the water. Yet, he's rated considerably lower than those two. Why is that? He had a comparatively limited and basic game. They were masters, he was not.
Similarly Leo and Cristiano.
I put him 5 to 10 same as Messi.
My point is its a lazy argument downplaying Muller to point score when he's one of the best footballers of all time.
I think Messi's skills are above Ronaldo's, but Ronaldo's mentality more or less puts him on par with Messi. I just don't see Ronaldo having the same look of resignation that Messi had. I think it affected his teammates as well. There was no intensity after they went 2-0 down from him, just resignation. There was no fire in him. Ronaldo may look petulant at times and yells at his teammates, but at least he spurs them on and shows intent. That truly disappointed me with Messi at Anfield. In the first leg, he ran his pants off and really worked for his team, but when things went against them, he crumbled.
What mentality? Ronaldo did nothing last time he came against a Liverpool defence, what mentality makes Karius fumble the ball twice, or Bale score the greatest goal ever scored in a Champions League final? What mythical mentality is that, and why didn't the same mentality help a way more experienced Juventus side when they came up against a very young Ajax side who had never made any impact in Champions league football?
How exactly would he spur them on in that case, afterall the first leg if not for Messi Barcelona would have already been out? I think what people are now doing is bringing up things we can't quantify to make these players equal, because the eye test simply says it how it is, Messi is an equal scorer and a far better playmaker, a better footballer simply, so people are left arguing things like mentality, how many times he has won the CL, how tall he is, how good he is in the air, small trivial things to find any ground to gain in this argument.
Because he won less onze dors
Wouldn't have happened with Ronaldo, look how he destroyed Liverpool
Jeez, calm down. Messi walked around the pitch looking like he had given up already. For all his pwtulance, Ronaldo is more or a vocal leader. As for mentality, team mates and coaches have all praised his mentality. I just wrote that Messi is a more talented footballer.
Neither Messi nor Ronaldo are leaders. Though I suppose Messi even less so.
So you basically cant rebut any of the points i made regarding said Gerd? Why isnt he regarded up there with Diego and Cruyff despute a superior resume and goals record, in fact, probably the most accomplished in history? Your answer would be appreciated.
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