Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

The team is in the mould of the manager. Look at Liverpool. That's entirely Klopp's team. You can see his impact all over it.

You can see Valverde’s impact too though, Barca are much more cynical and calculated than they’ve been in years. This is very much his team, both in the good and bad. It can’t be his fault when they lose but never his fault when they win. He’s made mistakes but he’s also done plenty of things right, you don’t get this close to winning two trebles in a row without doing so.

Lack of on field leaders is clearly a problem in this Barcelona team, don’t think that’s down to Valverde.
Messi is the star and the captain so he’ll take blame, Pique is the biggest disappointment though. Loves to talk outside of the pitch but should be doing it inside the pitch instead, playing next to Puyol and Ramos has clearly made him a different kind of player. Consistency wise he had a better season than those two ever had imo, it was arguably the best season of his career but with those two what happened at Anfield simply doesn’t happen. They could have still lost but not like that.

 

[matbezlima]

He beat Bayern, what Ronaldo did in 2017 was destroying.

Messi's performance in 2015 was clearly better in all senses. And Messi chipped the ball over Neuer after destroying Boateng. Messi also showed fantastic skills and playmaking. CR7 scored offside goals in 2017. You need to be too much of a CR7 fanboy to think that CR7's both 2014 and 2017 performances against Bayern are greater than Messi against Bayern in 2015.

 

[Cal?]

Messi's performance in 2015 was clearly better in all senses. And Messi chipped the ball over Neuer after destroying Boateng. Messi also showed fantastic skills and playmaking. CR7 scored offside goals in 2017. You need to be too much of a CR7 fanboy to think that CR7's both 2014 and 2017 performances against Bayern are greater than Messi against Bayern in 2015.

You need to be a Messi fanboy to even debate this.

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi's performance in 2015 was clearly better in all senses. And Messi chipped the ball over Neuer after destroying Boateng. Messi also showed fantastic skills and playmaking. CR7 scored offside goals in 2017. You need to be too much of a CR7 fanboy to think that CR7's both 2014 and 2017 performances against Bayern are greater than Messi against Bayern in 2015.

Those aren’t even Ronaldo’s two best matches against Bayern though...

2017 first leg in Munich was better than Messi in 2015 without half the hype.

Scored a hattrick in the second leg but that first leg changed everything. Went from dead and buried to favourites without the team performing, that’s much more impressive than the Atlético game a few weeks later when he scores a hattrick, creates 4 or 5 great chances, works his ass off all game but it all comes in the context of an incredible team performance that completely dominated the match.

He was also better in the first leg vs Bayern in 2014 than in the second leg where he scored 2 in Munich.

 

[Zehner]

He beat Bayern, what Ronaldo did in 2017 was destroying.

This video shows Ronaldo's actions on the ball against Bayern in the leg he scored three goals. Do you mind telling me where he "destroyed Bayern"? There's hardly anything impressing in this video except for the fact that he scored three clean goals, but nothing special. No great passes, combinations, dribbles, nothing. Just three typical center striker goals. That doesn't even compare to what Messi did to Bayern's defense. The Madrid player that really destroyed Bayern in this match was Marcelo, not Ronaldo.

 

[Cal?]

This video shows Ronaldo's actions on the ball against Bayern in the leg he scored three goals. Do you mind telling me where he "destroyed Bayern"? There's hardly anything impressing in this video except for the fact that he scored three clean goals, but nothing special. No great passes, combinations, dribbles, nothing. Just three typical center striker goals. That doesn't even compare to what Messi did to Bayern's defense. The Madrid player that really destroyed Bayern in this match was Marcelo, not Ronaldo.

If it’s so easy to score 3 goals against one of the best sides in the world, I wonder why other players don’t consider doing it more often?

 

[RedRonaldo]

Why are you talking to yourself?

Wrong quote

 

[KirkDuyt]

So who was more shite. Ronaldo in the two legs against Ajax or Messi in the two legs against Liverpool?

 

[Daysleeper]

So who was more shite. Ronaldo in the two legs against Ajax or Messi in the two legs against Liverpool?

Neither were shite, but I’d take Messi’s pool performance over Ronaldo’s Ajax performance

 

[Zehner]

If it’s so easy to score 3 goals against one of the best sides in the world, I wonder why other players don’t consider doing it more often?

Yeah, he scored three, but Messi also scored two more difficult goals and contributed much more to Barca's performance in general. That more than makes up for the one goal he scored less.

 

[Peyroteo]

Neither were shite, but I’d take Messi’s pool performance over Ronaldo’s Ajax performance

Did you even watch Ajax-Juve though? United-Barca was on at the same time.

 

[Daysleeper]

Did you even watch Ajax-Juve though? United-Barca was on at the same time.

I saw the 20 minute highlights for each match.

I think if you took the average of both Messi matches against pool vs both Ronaldo matches vs Ajax you’d take Messi.

Messi wasn’t great on the second night but still created every single chance Barca had and his first leg performance is obviously the best from the 4 legs we are comparing

 

[Rito]

Yeah, he scored three, but Messi also scored two more difficult goals and contributed much more to Barca's performance in general. That more than makes up for the one goal he scored less.

This is where the fanboyism starts when you can't quantify something.

No surprises though, you were the one who claimed that Ronaldo's bicycle kick goal was made by someone who crossed the ball, to prove your original theory that Ronaldo needs support to score goals while Messi does it all by himself.

Wonder why he couldn't do that against liverpool 2nd leg though. Anyway he doesn't need any support like Ronaldo does, right?

 

[Devil81]

I'd say father time is catching up with Ronaldo and it's not too far behind with Messi, lets just enjoy the next few years and appreciated what they've done for the game.

Last week I did the usual Messi is the best of all time routine yet I did the same during the summers world cup about Ronaldo.

I personally can't split them, both equally as incredible on their given day, which is most bloody days.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

The results of the poll speak for themselves.

 

[Zehner]

This is where the fanboyism starts when you can't quantify something.

No surprises though, you were the one who claimed that Ronaldo's bicycle kick goal was made by someone who crossed the ball, to prove your original theory that Ronaldo needs support to score goals while Messi does it all by himself.

Wonder why he couldn't do that against liverpool 2nd leg though. Anyway he doesn't need any support like Ronaldo does, right?

Of course he needs support but less than Cristiano. Messi covers half of the assembly line of an attack, Ronaldo puts his sticker on the final product after everyone has done his job. Quite amazing that you can't see that.

And no, you can't quantify football.

 

[Peyroteo]

Of course he needs support but less than Cristiano.

Then why can't he achieve the same as Ronaldo with even more support? And why do 'Messi fans' complain so much about the support he has even though he has more of it than Ronaldo? Please explain it to me. If he has more support and he doesn't need as much support to succeed... then why hasn't he done it?

He's played 3 Champions League finals in his whole career, two in the best team that's ever been assembled and another one with Neymar and Suarez besides him and a team of world class players behind them. He doesn't need as much support? Really? Won 3 big titles in his whole career and he had a better team around him in all of those times than Ronaldo's ever had in the entirity of his career.

Messi covers half of the assembly line of an attack, Ronaldo puts his sticker on the final product after everyone has done his job. Quite amazing that you can't see that.

Quite amazing that you see a forward scoring goals as putting a sticker on the final product without any influence at all on how easy he makes it for the final product to be made. And that's as if he does nothing but score rather than being the most creative forward on his team year after year even at 34.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

This video shows Ronaldo's actions on the ball against Bayern in the leg he scored three goals. Do you mind telling me where he "destroyed Bayern"? There's hardly anything impressing in this video except for the fact that he scored three clean goals, but nothing special. No great passes, combinations, dribbles, nothing. Just three typical center striker goals. That doesn't even compare to what Messi did to Bayern's defense. The Madrid player that really destroyed Bayern in this match was Marcelo, not Ronaldo.

at Cal? thinking this is some masterclass performance - half of Ronaldo's touches are misplaced, over hit or wayward.

 

[De Portago]

at Cal? thinking this is some masterclass performance - half of Ronaldo's touches are misplaced, over hit or wayward.

He scored three goals, it must have been!

This happens when people follow football via livescore.

The results of the poll speak for themselves.

At a neutral forum you're looking at a 75-25 or 80-20 split which is probably about right.

 

[Peyroteo]

at Cal? thinking this is some masterclass performance - half of Ronaldo's touches are misplaced, over hit or wayward.

He misplaced two passes (91% pass completion) and didn't get dispossessed once all game... now imagine if the passes weren't overhit and the touches misplaced.

That video does not in any way show all touches in that game either. And it was a great performance although not close to his best, any other player in the world in his place and they don't make it through that tie.

 

[Peyroteo]

At a neutral forum you're looking at a 75-25 or 80-20 split which is probably about right.

You're aware we're on a Manchester United forum and the majority of the votes on the poll happened on the same day Messi scored 2 goals past Liverpool, right?

 

[Zehner]

Then why can't he achieve the same as Ronaldo with even more support? And why do 'Messi fans' complain so much about the support he has even though he has more of it than Ronaldo? Please explain it to me. If he has more support and he doesn't need as much support to succeed... then why hasn't he done it?

He's played 3 Champions League finals in his whole career, two in the best team that's ever been assembled and another one with Neymar and Suarez besides him and a team of world class players behind them. He doesn't need as much support? Really? Won 3 big titles in his whole career and he had a better team around him in all of those times than Ronaldo's ever had in the entirity of his career.



Quite amazing that you see a forward scoring goals as putting a sticker on the final product without any influence at all on how easy he makes it for the final product to be made. And that's as if he does nothing but score rather than being the most creative forward on his team year after year even at 34.

Because he didn't have better support. We can again debate for ages whose team was better individually but as a collective, Barca was definitely nowhere near Madrid in the past five years. The players around him may be as good as it gets but still Barca got absolutely slaughtered in every single one of the last three CL campaigns at least once. That has nothing to do with Messi. Ronaldo never had to make up for his team conceding 4+ goals.

That's why team trophies are a bad approach to judge an individual player.

 

[De Portago]

You're aware we're on a Manchester United forum and the majority of the votes on the poll happened on the same day Messi scored 2 goals past Liverpool, right?

Interesting to note that three days after Messi's "collapse" which handed Liverpool their final berth the result is still the same? Surely Manchester Utd's fans should be changing their votes in droves by now? Btw, 65-35 was about the result last year when it was reset to 50-50, there was no Liverpool then.

 

[Peyroteo]

The players around him may be as good as it gets but still Barca got absolutely slaughtered in every single one of the last three CL campaigns at least once. That has nothing to do with Messi.

It doesn't? He's the one the team's built around. He's the captain. And the team losing like that has nothing to do with him? Isn't he the one who carries them? Isn't he the one who is Barcelona's best defensive weapon as it stops other teams pushing players forward? Isn't he the one who is the main reason Barcelona dominate the midfield?

How come he's responsible for everything good Barcelona ever does but never responsible when they stop doing it?

 

[Cal?]

So who was more shite. Ronaldo in the two legs against Ajax or Messi in the two legs against Liverpool?

I'd take Ronaldo's over Messi's any day.

 

[Zehner]

It doesn't? He's the one the team's built around. He's the captain. And the team losing like that has nothing to do with him? Isn't he the one who carries them? Isn't he the one who is Barcelona's best defensive weapon as it stops other teams pushing players forward? Isn't he the one who is the main reason Barcelona dominate the midfield?

How come he's responsible for everything good Barcelona ever does but never responsible when they stop doing it?

It's cringeworthy that you even try to blame Messi for his team's bad defensive performance. You didn't see such smalltime stuff when Cristiano and Juve went out. You should really start questioning your own impressions and opinions.

 

[Cal?]

The results of the poll speak for themselves.

Only because idiots mods locked it straight after Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah, he scored three, but Messi also scored two more difficult goals and contributed much more to Barca's performance in general. That more than makes up for the one goal he scored less.

You do realize Ronaldo scored FIVE (5!!!) in the 2 legs? When was the last time Messi score 5 in 2 legs?

 

[Cal?]

It's cringeworthy that you even try to blame Messi for his team's bad defensive performance. You didn't see such smalltime stuff when Cristiano and Juve went out. You should really start questioning your own impressions and opinions.

That's the mods opening the poll after that game and locking it after Liverpool (sans Salah/Firminho) destroyed Messilona.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah, he scored three, but Messi also scored two more difficult goals and contributed much more to Barca's performance in general. That more than makes up for the one goal he scored less.

Every goal is worth the same, this is not NBA.

 

[Zehner]

You do realize Ronaldo scored FIVE (5!!!) in the 2 legs? When was the last time Messi score 5 in 2 legs?

So you agree that Ronaldo's performances in each of those games was worse than Messi's? I don't really remember Messi's performance of the other tie but over both legs, Cristiano was much likely better, yes.

That's the mods opening the poll after that game and locking it after Liverpool (sans Salah/Firminho) destroyed Messilona.

Who cares, honestly? Don't understand why that vothers you that much.

 

[Zehner]

Every goal is worth the same, this is not NBA.

Yes, it counts the same but obviously a goal like Maradona 86 deserves much more praise than some random tap in. Why? Because there are fewer players that can replicate it

 

[Cal?]

So you agree that Ronaldo's performances in each of those games was worse than Messi's? I don't really remember Messi's performance of the other tie but over both legs, Cristiano was much likely better, yes.

Who cares, honestly? Don't understand why that vothers you that much.

No, I was just pointing out that Ronaldo is the all time greatest player in the Cristiano League.

Messi may be better in La Liga, but he hasn't even come close in the CL.

It bothers me because Messi fanboys keep pointing to the "result" as justification.

 

[Cal?]

Yes, it counts the same but obviously a goal like Maradona 86 deserves much more praise than some random tap in. Why? Because there are fewer players that can replicate it

Indeed, very few players handball so obviously and not get booked.

[Edit]

On a more seriously note, Ronaldo has probably 2 of the all time greatest CL goals.

 

[Peyroteo]

It's cringeworthy that you even try to blame Messi for his team's bad defensive performance. You didn't see such smalltime stuff when Cristiano and Juve went out. You should really start questioning your own impressions and opinions.

You completely misunderstood me, I don't blame Messi. At least not mainly or above other Barcelona players, obviously he wasn't perfect and failed to do plenty of things that could have avoided what happened but I still don't blame him the way I blamed him for other Barcelona eliminations where he didn't show up at all. I'm just questioning why he's held responsible for Barcelona's defensive record and midfield control when they do it but then not blamed at all when they fail to do it. I don't believe he's responsible for those things so I don't blame him when they fail either.

But surely the people that believe he has huge importance in Barcelona's overall game, build up, defensive record, etc. have to blame him for Barcelona failing to do any of those things well? Or is he only responsible for those things when it goes well?

How come he's responsible for everything good Barcelona ever does but never responsible when they stop doing it?

 

[Bole Top]

You're aware we're on a Manchester United forum and the majority of the votes on the poll happened on the same day Messi scored 2 goals past Liverpool, right?

not that this poll matters that much, but I'd imagine those who voted for Messi after Liverpool game are probably the same type of fans who voted for Ronaldo after that hattrick vs Spain last summer. before that game, poll was almost identical to current and Messi wasn't destroying Liverpool then.

let's be honest, Ronaldo could never build such a huge lead in any poll on any forum, even after Portugal have won the Euro, even when Madrid won their third CL. you could say he needs couple of freak seasons to draw at best, but in any other scenario you get these kind of results, even on United forum.

 

[VanKenny]

How come he's responsible for everything good Barcelona ever does but never responsible when they stop doing it?

He's not responsible for everything good Barcelona ever does, but 99% of the time, he is. Same for when things dont go Barcelona's way, some times its because of him, but most of the time they arent.

How do we come up with this conclusion? By actually watching the games without having an agenda.

Here is an example of Barcelona winning a huge game without Messi being the main responsible: vs PSG on 2017. It was basically Neymar, with the rest of the team, including Messi playing a very good collective game. But that was all Neymar, and no "Messi fanboy" will tell you otherwise, because its pretty obvious.

Now, an example of Barcelona losing a huge game with Messi being one of the main responsibles: vs Roma last year. He dissapeared the entire game and it was just a horrible Barca game all over the pitch. No "Messi fanboy" will deny that.

Those are exceptions to the rule though. Someone that watches Messi week in and week out will tell you that he's the main reason Barca win so much, because that is obvious if you actually watch the games. Hell, only take a look at the statistics and it will tell you the same story. Barcelona is basically relying on Messi to have a good day and most of the time, he does.

What happened against Liverpool is a perfect example of Messi taking the blame when he was by far the best player out of the two teams in both legs together. 10/10 performance by whoscored.com on the first leg, and 7.2 on the second leg. On average he played way better than anybody else. On the second leg he was Barca's best player by far, only Vidal came close who had an amazing first half followed by a shit second half.

This is the reason why you could ask any Barcelona fan and they will tell you that Messi is the least to blame. You will never every hear a single whistle at Camp Nou directed at Messi. Next game in La Liga if Messi plays, i can asure you his name will be chanted, because every Barca fan knows that Messi is 90% of the reason why Barcelona got as close to the trebie as they did, both last season and this one.

They know this because they actually watch the games. They actually saw Ter Stegen's and the defense's mistake ont he 4th goal, they saw Alba's mistake on the first goal, they saw the Barcelona forwards missing literally every chance except for Messi, etc.

Its as simple as that. People just dont say "oh its never Messi's fault". People do say its his fault, when it actually is, the thing is that he is so good that when his team loses, believe it or not, one or few of the other 10 players are more at fault than him.

 

[Peyroteo]

not that this poll matters that much, but I'd imagine those who voted for Messi after Liverpool game are probably the same type of fans who voted for Ronaldo after that hattrick vs Spain last summer. before that game, poll was almost identical to current and Messi wasn't destroying Liverpool then.

let's be honest, Ronaldo could never build such a huge lead in any poll on any forum, even after Portugal have won the Euro, even when Madrid won their third CL. you could say he needs couple of freak seasons to draw at best, but in any other scenario you get these kind of results, even on United forum.

Love how you not only created hypothetical polls in your mind but then got the hypothetical results.

The poll got created when Ronaldo was on a big goal drought last year by the huge insistance of Messi fans, that's when something like 30% of all votes now came in. Ronaldo scored a bicycle kick vs Juve and it shifted a bunch, scored the hattrick vs Spain and it shifted a bunch. He was going to surpass it until they closed it on a draw because it was fitting... then they open it on a United forum after Messi scores 2 vs Liverpool and a great season (better than Ronaldo's) and it shifted a bunch with at least 300 new people voting.

Obviously the timing of it completely changes everything.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

My god, I hope the people who are so utterly invested in this ridiculous argument are getting paid good money for their time.

 

[matbezlima]

If it’s so easy to score 3 goals against one of the best sides in the world, I wonder why other players don’t consider doing it more often?

You missed the point. We are not trying to take away the merit of CR7's goals. It is truly amazing and fantastic that CR7 scored three goals against Bayern, it is worthy of all praise. The point is that goals alone are not a metric to rank the level of the performances! Is it that hard to understand?

Your sole argument for a Cristiano Ronaldo performance being better than a Messi performance is the number of goals! That is factually, much of the greatness in football can not be quantified and stats tend to be overrated lately. Stats do not tell everything about the level of a player. Based on your arguments to criticize Messi in UCL 2015 because he only scored two goals in the KO and had both Neymar and Suárez scoring more goals than him, then Johan Cruyff was carried by his teammates during his wonderful 1974 World Cup. No one doubts that Cruyff was magnificent and by far the best player of that World Cup, yet he only scored three goals in seven games, 2 against Argentina and one against Brazil. His teammates Neeskens and Rep scored 5 and 4 goals, respectively. There were six players who scored more goals than Cruyff in that World Cup. Let's remember the game in which CR7 scored three goals against Spain in 2018 World Cup. Are you seriously gonna tell me that Cristiano Ronaldo had a better performance than all Cruyff's games in the 1974 World Cup? Or Maradona's games in the 1986 World Cup? Or Garrincha's games in the 1962 World Cup? The game against Uruguay, in which Holland won 2-0, Cruyff did not score, Rep scored the two goals, yet Cruyff was clearly the best player of his team in that match, he was fantastic! Are you saying that CR7's performance against Spain was better than Cruyff against Uruguay in 1974 because he scored three goals and played for an average team while Cruyff scored none and played for one of the greatest teams ever? If your answer is yes, I give up on you.

You are also incoherent. You tried to detract from Messi's performance against Real in 2011 because he did not score before Pepe was sent off, even if Messi scored one of the greatest goals ever. You even say that Messi was being handled by Mourinho's tactics, while Messi was the one creating Barcelona's great chances in the whole game, yet Cristiano Ronaldo also failed to score against Bayern in the second leg before Vidal was sent off and was overall playing worse. Two of his goals against Bayern were offside also. I am not trying to discredit CR7, I am only exposing your incoherence and all lack of common sense when it comes to anything that does not favor or favors CR7!