Why is our fanbase so toxic towards its players?

[He'sRaldo]

I posted this in the 0.012% thread, but I think it's relevant here as well.

In Lingard's case, I think it's because his whole marketing thing probably wouldn't work if he wasn't a Man Utd player. He's not skilled enough to be at another big club, and his personality alone isn't enough to carry his whole brand if he was at a mid-table club. So the assumption then is that he's gaining a lot by simply being a Man Utd player, being paid a good salary and having a golden opportunity to get his brand going through Man Utd's exposure.

For that reason, people feel it's unfair for him to put in such mediocre performances when he's gaining so much from the club, and focus on his brand so much when without the club it probably wouldn't be possible. It kinda comes off as a parasitic relationship as opposed to a symbiotic one (the likes of which Beckham had, and Pogba has).

 

[ivaldo]

Love the fact you have bypassed about 3 questions that I asked. As I said, can't be bothered rooting through pages of discussions to find your points, be pretty sad to do that tbh.

Agree his external interests do not make him a shit player, but I would imagine that they do contribute to his negative press, the criticism he receives, the abuse he receives, which I would think leads to his confidence being drained, his head maybe not being in the best place, which could then lead to his performances on this pitch suffering, would you not agree? So his ridiculous actions off the pitch lead to all this negative publicity which could lead to abject performances, as you say I'm sure you can get your head around that? Not a difficult thing to grasp is it lad.

Yeah re Suits, didn't say I didn't understand the points, said why do people feel the need to speak like they have a pole up the arse when on a forum, trying to come across as all intellectual with OTT jargon, seems a bit fake and put on to me, bit sad for a forum but just my opinion, hope you can grasp that lad.

I did. Because the whole premise of your post is entirely wrong, as are your result are your following questions. You seem to believe I was defending Lingards performances, which I wasn't. If you had spent 5 minutes reading you wouldn't have had to write out an entire post about something that wasn't even being discussed. Top stuff.

This is thread about posters being toxic towards our players. It might be a bit sad, reading on a forum and all, but the title is pretty conclusive. If you want to discuss Lingards performances, then hop over to his performance thread.

If you think using words with more than two syllables is talking in jargon then I can't help you. Do yourself a favour and stay away from the general forum, some of the words used in there will blow your mind!

 

[IRELANDUNITED]

“I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can’t accept not trying.” – Michael Jordan

This famous quote pretty much sums up how I feel about United since Fergie retired. If we had 11 men out on the field who gave absolutely everything they had they wouldn't get slated, but I would say we haven't hand that even half a dozen times in the past 6 years. The very least fans deserve is maximum effort from their players.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Well the answer is simple and that is because we are not doing well. If we had won the league then everyone would praise them far too much. Maybe not the hated players like Jones, Lingard, Young.
Although people would call Pogba best in the world and hail a lot of players more than they even deserve.

We are all frustrated and after games it is logical we all moan in player performance threads when we have played like shit. Although beyond that I think we should support our players much more. Since we ended the season so badly it is hard to be too positive.
I will actually be sad to see most players go even when I think it might be right. Maybe not caring too much about someone like Darmian or Rojo since they have not played very much, but other than that I would mainly care.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Which part of the world do you work in? I've worked for two fortune 500 companies, and it's hard as feck to cut/sack employees. Underperformance usually isn't a good enough reason to sack someone.

They won't get promoted/rise through the ranks but sackings are very rare and are usually for gross misconduct.

At my place, they are put under PIP or a monitored performance program. They are set certain industry accepted targets and if they fail to reach them, they can be terminated.

 

[sunama]

Q. Why is our fanbase so toxic towards its players?
A. I'm not, though I am toxic towards Ed Woodward. The guy is an utter shambles and is hell bent on dragging our club down. As long as he keeps making money for the club, he'll gladly see our on-pitch performances deteriorate. Some say that if we keep finishing in 6th place or lower, it will effect our profits - when that happens, Ed will deal with it, but it hasn't happened so far and until it does, Ed's aim is to spend as little as possible, while trying to hang onto 4th place.

Our players need a manager who is backed. If this happens, the players will have no choice but to fall in line and to start working hard.
When the manager is being overruled over players sales (by Woodward), the players know that the manager has no real power and that they can simply wait him out (they can get him fired).

Woodward needs to pick a decent manager with a history of getting decent results, back him and tell the players that what the manager says, goes. If he says that players x and y are not pulling their weight and need to be transfer listed, then that's what will happen. When the first primadonna player (eg. Pogba or Martial) are transfer listed, that'll send shockwaves through the dressing room and they know the easy days are over.

 

[MackRobinson]

This is exactly the sort of attitude we hear about Rashford and Lingard when it comes to training, which also explains why they sprint more and run further than almost all their team-mates.

Ashley Young, talking about Rashford.


Mourinho:



Which makes shite of your analogy... (without even getting into the absolute nonsense implying they're on twitter or in the pub when they should be working )

Excellent post.

Too bad most will ignore it because they want to hold on so dearly to their preconceived notions about certain players. Your facts and logic are lost on this lot.

Not only that but nobody on the CAF knows how hard these players train. If you think you deduce a players level of effort in training by social media activity you're a complete idiot.

 

[MackRobinson]

Without wanting to get into a huge back and forth about this, let me just respond to the above with a few bullet points;

1. I reference Lingard by talking about players launching clothing lines but I don't specifically name Rashford (or Lingard for that matter) It's a general post aimed at pretty much every member of our squad. (The 'box on the head' reference is a little jibe at Eric Bailly, for example). I have gripes with many of them for different reasons, but broadly speaking, I think across the board their attitude could and should be better. Whether that's not flirting with other clubs, whether that's running more on the pitch, whether that's training harder, whether that's not chasing celebrity, whether that's turning up fit and in peak condition....I could go on. Not all apply to each but one or more apply to many.

2. Finding old quotes about Rashford from a teammate and an old manager doesn't disprove or prove anything. I could equally find just as many quotes or stories about how Jose WASN'T happy with Rashford's attitude. But again, we are focusing on specifics here when I am talking generally.

3. I don't actually think our players go to the pub instead of training. It's part of my analogy....I don't know what the footballer equivalent is....maybe something like going out shopping for your 1000th pair of Balenciaga's or playing FIFA. Again, you are focusing on the specific and not the general point being made.

What I would say (and I really don't mean this to sound patronising) is that by continually focusing on the minutia and the minor details, you are missing something that is staring you in the face...i.e. the old analogy 'can't see the wood for the tree's'. The results and the performances tell me that the effort/application/focus CANNOT be there....unless we truly believe that this group of highly-paid International footballers are on a par technically and tactically with the likes of Huddersfield, West Ham, Wolves, Cardiff etc....Any team can lose one game to an inferior side on any given day. To do so over and over again in such a predictable manner and then trot out the same old lines....well I'm sorry but I'm with Roy Keane on this one....they don't really mean a word they say.

By jumping down the the throat of my analogy and saying 'ah well the whole things worthless because Jose once said "XXXXXX about Player Y" two years ago', you massively miss the point

I don't think he missed the point at. It's conjecture, lazy, and quite frankly disrespectful to accuse a professional of not trying hard enough without a shred of evidence. (For the record, running stats are terrible evidence as they don't point directly to lack of effort and could be a fault of the low stamina or the managers tactical setup. The ranking of teams itself shows how absurd it is to draw any conclusions about effort). I understand fans are frustrated, but inventing theories about effort based on side businesses and social media posts and then constantly beating players over the head with is low-rent fandom.

 

[Skills]

At my place, they are put under PIP or a monitored performance program. They are set certain industry accepted targets and if they fail to reach them, they can be terminated.

Well if we want players treated like normal employees they should also enjoy some of the benefits we enjoy in our day jobs.

So if we do head down that route, players should be able to hand in say a 2 month notice and leave their clubs for free. As the employer isn't obliged to fulfil their commitment to the full term of the contract, neither should the employee. Sounds like a fair enough deal, but I'm guessing you won't be happy about that too.

 

[killerboi2]

It goes back to the Sir Alex days and his ruthless, no nonsense treatment of the players if they crossed him. A lot of fans seem to think that they are in the position to adopt the same stance. It's arguable that Sir Alex himself went too far with his ideology at times.

Thankfully there were times in the past where the fans weren't listened to. I was relieved when we didn't get rid of Rio Ferdinand because he was in the same restaurant as some Chelsea players.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Excellent post.

Too bad most will ignore it because they want to hold on so dearly to their preconceived notions about certain players. Your facts and logic are lost on this lot.

Not only that but nobody on the CAF knows how hard these players train. If you think you deduce a players level of effort in training by social media activity you're a complete idiot.

I don't think he missed the point at. It's conjecture, lazy, and quite frankly disrespectful to accuse a professional of not trying hard enough without a shred of evidence. (For the record, running stats are terrible evidence as they don't point directly to lack of effort and could be a fault of the low stamina or the managers tactical setup. The ranking of teams itself shows how absurd it is to draw any conclusions about effort). I understand fans are frustrated, but inventing theories about effort based on side businesses and social media posts and then constantly beating players over the head with is low-rent fandom.

Manager after manager have alluded to the fact this team is not fit enough, Lukaku is gasping for air if he makes a sprint. Shaw can’t seem to shed weight all combined with us constantly being outrun even by teams already relegated.

There does seem to be a pattern whether you refuse to see it or not

 

[MackRobinson]

Manager after manager have alluded to the fact this team is not fit enough, Lukaku is gasping for air if he makes a sprint. Shaw can’t seem to shed weight all combined with us constantly being outrun even by teams already relegated.

There does seem to be a pattern whether you refuse to see it or not

So you are basing your conclusion on Shaw's weight and meaningless running stats? City was bottom half in running. So was Watford. So was Wolves. Why did they all have good seasons despite them not trying hard enough?

How many United training sessions have you attended? Are you their dietician? Do you monitor training? You get my point. Any idiot can invent wild theories with scattered quotes and rumors.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

So you are basing your conclusion on Shaw's weight and meaningless running stats? City was bottom half in running. So was Watford. So was Wolves. Why did they all have good seasons despite them not trying hard enough?

How many United training sessions have you attended? Are you their dietician? Do you monitor training? You get my point. Any idiot can invent wild theories with scattered quotes and rumors.

So Ole is an idiot also?

 

[RedDevil@84]

Well if we want players treated like normal employees they should also enjoy some of the benefits we enjoy in our day jobs.

So if we do head down that route, players should be able to hand in say a 2 month notice and leave their clubs for free. As the employer isn't obliged to fulfil their commitment to the full term of the contract, neither should the employee. Sounds like a fair enough deal, but I'm guessing you won't be happy about that too.

I didn't start the "if I am owner of a company" analogy.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

So you are basing your conclusion on Shaw's weight and meaningless running stats? City was bottom half in running. So was Watford. So was Wolves. Why did they all have good seasons despite them not trying hard enough?

How many United training sessions have you attended? Are you their dietician? Do you monitor training? You get my point. Any idiot can invent wild theories with scattered quotes and rumors.

And the club went from top 3 in running distance in the league under Van Gaal to the bottom in Mourinho's first season so it is a style of play thing more than anything.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

If your not winning games you at least put a shift in, bare minimum at amateur level right through to the pro’s. If your not fit enough you don’t play. Amazed so many people are willing to watch it then defend it

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

If your not winning games you at least put a shift in, bare minimum at amateur level right through to the pro’s. If your not fit enough you don’t play. Amazed so many people are willing to watch it then defend it

Manchester United players should be putting a shift in AND winning games, that’s the minimum.

The supporters are sick and tired of being sick and tired.

 

[devilish]

Yes, but you can make the point without calling them cnuts. Young and jones might not be good enough, but they served the club and they did it as well as they could. They shouldn’t be getting their dicks sucked, but they shouldn’t getting abuse either. Say it’s time to go, by all means. But it like be nice if we could do it without resorting to hyperbole, name calling and rewriting history. We did it to Rooney, we did it to carrick, we did it to fletcher, we did it to others. Why can’t we just say it’s time to move on?

Just to be super crystal clear, I’m not advocating that the club give them cushy contracts forever. I’m saying that we as fans can voice the opinion that it’s time to go without being cnuts. The club giving them new contracts isn’t in them, that’s on the club. Call them cnuts.

Calling them like that might be pushing it too far however I struggle to understand how exactly someone like Jones had served the club. Between injuries and brainfarts you can count his good games on one hand. In my opinion, the fans are doing a big disservice to this club by just being too passive and supportive at all times. Its one thing supporting a club who can't make ends meet and must therefore accept a certain low level of football. However United is not like that. We're the richest club in the world, a money generating machine. The owners should be pushed, if necessary, to take care of the football side of things rather then rely on our support while they are busy milking Manchester United down.

 

[steffyr2]

Q. Why is our fanbase so toxic towards its players?
A. I'm not, though I am toxic towards Ed Woodward. The guy is an utter shambles and is hell bent on dragging our club down. As long as he keeps making money for the club, he'll gladly see our on-pitch performances deteriorate. Some say that if we keep finishing in 6th place or lower, it will effect our profits - when that happens, Ed will deal with it, but it hasn't happened so far and until it does, Ed's aim is to spend as little as possible, while trying to hang onto 4th place.

Our players need a manager who is backed. If this happens, the players will have no choice but to fall in line and to start working hard.
When the manager is being overruled over players sales (by Woodward), the players know that the manager has no real power and that they can simply wait him out (they can get him fired).

Woodward needs to pick a decent manager with a history of getting decent results, back him and tell the players that what the manager says, goes. If he says that players x and y are not pulling their weight and need to be transfer listed, then that's what will happen. When the first primadonna player (eg. Pogba or Martial) are transfer listed, that'll send shockwaves through the dressing room and they know the easy days are over.

He's done this several times already. I can't think having cafe members earnestly saying, "Manager xyz is over the hill!" really means anything to the club, so my assumption is that there's alot of behind the scene infighting going on.

 

[MackRobinson]

So Ole is an idiot also?

Besides Martial who else has he said lacked effort? Lingard? Rashford? Are you on the training ground?

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Besides Martial who else has he said lacked effort? Lingard? Rashford? Are you on the training ground?

What are you talking about, I was talking about the lack of fitness which Ole has come out and said “of course the fitness levels are not good enough for me”

Yet if a fan questions a few of these players fitness you get stupid sarcastic questions like are you on the training ground or are you the dietician.

We all have eyes and can see something is wrong with the fitness of some of these players, it ain’t rocket science for the love of god

 

[MackRobinson]

What are you talking about, I was talking about the lack of fitness which Ole has come out and said “of course the fitness levels are not good enough for me”

Yet if a fan questions a few of these players fitness you get stupid sarcastic questions like are you on the training ground or are you the dietician.

We all have eyes and can see something is wrong with the fitness of some of these players, it ain’t rocket science for the love of god

Then why did you even quote my post? I was specifically talking about a lack of effort or not trying hard in the original post you quote. In fact, that is what most people are talking about in this thread. Nice red herring making it about fitness.

I don't think he missed the point at. It's conjecture, lazy, and quite frankly disrespectful to accuse a professional of not trying hard enough without a shred of evidence. (For the record, running stats are terrible evidence as they don't point directly to lack of effort and could be a fault of the low stamina or the managers tactical setup. The ranking of teams itself shows how absurd it is to draw any conclusions about effort). I understand fans are frustrated, but inventing theories about effort based on side businesses and social media posts and then constantly beating players over the head with is low-rent fandom.

Sigh.

 

[Le Red]

You are grossly misinformed. In 2018, matchday revenues were £110M. All retail and merchandising revenue was £102.9 million. Matchday revenue is VERY important for ANY sports franchise.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...anchester-United-plc-2018-Fourth-Quarter-Full

Half of the PL's revenue from TV deals comes from the British audience. Domestic TV deals are ALWAYS more valuable that international deals.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/english-...e-record-tv-deal-will-affect-english-football


Fans in China, the US, and other non-British countries will always be fair-weather fans for the most part. Most of them started supporting United b/c they were winning (glory hunters). Seeing as how the match going fans also consist of the British broadcasting audience the notion that random, fair-weather fan in East Asia is somehow more important or even level with match-going fans is absurd.

P.S. - I'm not a match going fan or British, but I've seen international fans really overstate the importance of the average casual overseas fan. I would wager they, on average, spend much less money on United (by probably a factor of 2 or 3) than the average match-going fan.

Upon seeing actual numbers I admit the ticket revenue has a larger fraction in the income than I believed, so I stand corrected. Still, if half the TV revenue is coming from the British audience, it means the other half comes from abroad. And the tendency is the abroad income is going to overtake the domestic in the next years, so I still think my point is valid.
I'm not saying Man. United will cease existing, but can it regain it's post as one of the most fearsome clubs in the world if external audience, and all the money and prestige it generates, fades away?
I know it's a fecking Sun headline but "Manchester United have seen $1bn wiped off the value of the club this season, losing almost one quarter of its worth in a turbulent campaign" doesn't sound so farfetched to me.
We're already having this much trouble with all the money. There's lots to be said about how the sports side of the club's been run, but money is needed to stay at the top even when things are done right.
The whole debacle, in my view, is that top red characters like to point fingers at others and call them knee-jerks, but they are blind to the danger this club is facing. They believe MUFC will maintain top dog status forever no matter what, because they are still such a popular club domestically, but without short term results, the global audience will drop massively, and all that money and popularity will shift to other clubs.
Man. United is only a step away from the Milano clubs if things don't start to change fast on the pitch. Meanwhile, top reds are worried about backing up Lingard and co. unconditionally, and calling toxic those who demand more from these millionaire brats.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Then why did you even quote my post? I was specifically talking about a lack of effort or not trying hard in the original post you quote. In fact, that is what most people are talking about in this thread. Nice red herring making it about fitness.



Sigh.

The reply where I talked about fitness and Lukaku gasping for air? yeah proper red herring

 

[Jazz]

The influence of the press - anything negative that's printed or said, is immediately believed; perceived lack of effort from players (whether justified or not); ex players fanning the flames; frustration that players no longer good enough are still here and starting.

Think those are the major ones.

The thing is all football fans will have a moan. However, we've seemingly reached the point of extreme vitriol towards the players (who in my opinion should stay the feck away from social media).

The problem is, the constant negativity gets into the players' heads and it becomes harder for them on the pitch. Don't forget, sport is 50% in the head.
It depresses me much less them. Not absolving them, just saying we're adding more pressure, and yet as fans, we have the right to complain. It's degree of 'hate' that's the big problem, and you can just see how nervous the players get. When their heads go down when the opposition scores, I always think they're thinking, I'm getting slaughtered tonight by press and fans. That means you're even more tense the next time you play.

It's a bad situation.

 

[MackRobinson]

The reply where I talked about fitness and Lukaku gasping for air? yeah proper red herring

So you quoted me just to rant about something that I wasn't even talking about? Obtuse.

 

[R'hllor]

Hope Arsenal fans tonight take tonights shit show with a grace and dont have a go at their players, they gave their all, fought hard etc.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

So you quoted me just to rant about something that I wasn't even talking about? Obtuse.

You talked about running stats, effort and stamina to which I replied about fitness? How’s is that obtuse - take a breather

 

[Wheato]

I don't think we have anything personal against certain players. Just that they aren't good enough for this club. And they are currently taking the places of someone who deserves to be playing for this club. Ashley Young wouldn't get a game at quite a few Championship clubs. And he is our captain. This is how bad things have slipped. Jones and Smalling still here. Darmian and Rojo still here. Sanchez earning 350k per week for just 5 goals in 45 appearances. We cannot move forward without moving the deadwood out. We all watched Wolves outplay us numerous times this season. And I sat there thinking that at least 5 of their players could walk straight into our squad. How did we allow Wolves to recruit better players than us? How did Leicester sign Maddison, Maguire, Tielemans (loan) Mahrez, Chilwell? How did Everton sign Richarlison, Gomes, Digne? We are just being out smarted by mid-table clubs with an actual recruitment plan. And if we don't wake up, we will be dropping to mid-table and watching the others disappear. I really felt for Ole, having to field 17 year olds to show the senior players what trying looks like. I'd much rather be honest and say when someone is mint than pretend that they are Gods when they are not.

For instance, I find it sickening watching City fans paying money to stand behind a fence and watch the players arrive. Grovelling like beggars, with their arms outstretched, desperate for a touch of Kyle Walkers shin pad. Have some self respect, you muppets.

 

[Kaglish10]

This is exactly the sort of attitude we hear about Rashford and Lingard when it comes to training, which also explains why they sprint more and run further than almost all their team-mates.

Ashley Young, talking about Rashford.


Mourinho:



Which makes shite of your analogy... (without even getting into the absolute nonsense implying they're on twitter or in the pub when they should be working )

They talked about Rashford only. Why include Lingard?

 

[Kaglish10]

Toxic players deserve same level of toxicity. It's that simple.

 

[Red For Ever]

At my place, they are put under PIP or a monitored performance program. They are set certain industry accepted targets and if they fail to reach them, they can be terminated.

I’m just trying to imagine what you mean when you say they can be terminated.

 

[Jibbs]

I posted this in the 0.012% thread, but I think it's relevant here as well.

In Lingard's case, I think it's because his whole marketing thing probably wouldn't work if he wasn't a Man Utd player. He's not skilled enough to be at another big club, and his personality alone isn't enough to carry his whole brand if he was at a mid-table club. So the assumption then is that he's gaining a lot by simply being a Man Utd player, being paid a good salary and having a golden opportunity to get his brand going through Man Utd's exposure.

For that reason, people feel it's unfair for him to put in such mediocre performances when he's gaining so much from the club, and focus on his brand so much when without the club it probably wouldn't be possible. It kinda comes off as a parasitic relationship as opposed to a symbiotic one (the likes of which Beckham had, and Pogba has).

This. Just summed it up perfectly. He won't start for any top 8 club in EPL. His level is Championship. He is even in England squad because he is a United player.

 

[iamherenow]

Because they're mostly shit and it's been half a decade of watching the same shit.

 

[Okey]

On the toxicity issue, but extending it to former players... It's worth noting Petr Cech is off to become Chelsea's technical director. With the famed zero experience. A path well trodden by many who have ended up becoming legends in those roles. Including the sainted Pep. Yet the mention of bringing our ex players here in similar roles raised so much opprobrium. I think there's just a bit too much negativity towards our own here sometimes. By all means point out obvious problems but let the mindset be more positive than negative. They may be so and sos like many say, but they're our so and sos...

 

[Shaidabdullah Hussain]

Low-key, subconscious racism.

We're living in incredibly divisive and manipulative political times - people don't realize all the subtle ways it affects us.

Saying this as a brown person who has experienced this kind of racism - That’s not why people don’t like this team.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I’m just trying to imagine what you mean when you say they can be terminated.

Spoiler: Not this

 

[Class of 63]

This. Just summed it up perfectly. He won't start for any top 8 club in EPL. His level is Championship. He is even in England squad because he is a United player.

But Ashley Young, Chris Smalling, Phil Jones and Luke Shaw aren't, what's that about?

 

[RedDevil@84]

This. Just summed it up perfectly. He won't start for any top 8 club in EPL. His level is Championship. He is even in England squad because he is a United player.

No. He is in England team because the manager couldn't find anyone better

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

It has absoluely nothing to do with racism. I would bend over backwards for a team full of Kanye,Koulibaly etc. Backward. Its a lazy excuse to defend absolute shitehouse mediocre crap. Pogba aside. He's a different case in that hes clearly not mediocre shite. But turns in such performances regularly.