Buying Local, Selling Abroad

Varun

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One of the biggest problems we seem to be facing is being quoted outrageous prices for our targets while not getting bids of the same level for the ones we want to sell. Is it really a surprise though given we seem to want to do our buying in the PL where there's more money than sense while potential buyers for our players seem to come from abroad where clubs don't quite have the same level of dough and value players very differently?

Why don't we look abroad for players? Surely our scouting system is good enough to identify players abroad so it is a management call? If so, why?
 
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Varun said:
One of the biggest problems we seem to be facing is being quoted outrageous prices for our targets while not getting bids of the same level for the ones we want to sell. Is it really a surprise though given we seem to be doing our buying in the PL where there's more money than sense while our selling seems to happen abroad where clubs don't quite have the same level of dough and value players very differently?

Why don't we look abroad for players? Surely our scouting system is good enough to identify players abroad so it is a management call? If so, why?
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Simple answer I think is that it is less about who is selling than who is buying. Sure, some clubs have found bargains in the international aisle but the minute we show interest in someone, whether they are from Salford or Slovenia, the price doubles or triples.
 
Varun said:
One of the biggest problems we seem to be facing is being quoted outrageous prices for our targets while not getting bids of the same level for the ones we want to sell. Is it really a surprise though given we seem to be doing our buying in the PL where there's more money than sense while our selling seems to happen abroad where clubs don't quite have the same level of dough and value players very differently?

Why don't we look abroad for players? Surely our scouting system is good enough to identify players abroad so it is a management call? If so, why?
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What? Have you been living under a rock? How many Premier League players have we been buying?

Rojo, Blind, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin (sold on no problem), Dalot, Bailly, Lindelöf, Pogba, Martial, Depay, Fred, Mkhitaryan.
 
I think it comes down to the quality of the signings and how they age (badly) during their time here. Bad buys, overpaying and then how come are we getting any money for them?
 
Personally I believe that United should almost never buy foreign players from PL clubs, it's not just the transfer fee that is massively increased but also the wages because PL players are on a different market.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
What? Have you been living under a rock? How many Premier League players have we been buying?

Rojo, Blind, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin (sold on no problem), Dalot, Bailly, Lindelöf, Pogba, Martial, Depay, Fred
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It should read 'want to do our buying', ditto for selling. Talking about the current window here.
 
Edited to make it clear that I'm talking about the current window here.
 
Varun said:
It should read 'want to do our buying', ditto for selling. Talking about the current window here.
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Ok, now it makes more sense.

I think we've failed so often these past 6 seasons with our overseas buying that Ole and the club want to get back to what served Fergie so well, by buying Premier League proven players.
 
these so called 'Prem proven' players were players abroad at some point. What we need is to identify what kind of player fits our system not if they are in PL or not, quality of a player is not dependent on whether he is a specific league or not!
 
Velvet Revolver said:
these so called 'Prem proven' players were players abroad at some point.
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Well not all of them, but a few percentage absolutely.

As I say, the Premier League was Fergie's favourite shopping centre due to not have to take Lindelöf, Bailly etc punts so often. I completely understand why Ole and the club think it's the way to go after the last 6 years of focusing on mainly buying abroad.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Well not all of them, but a few percentage absolutely.

As I say, the Premier League was Fergie's favourite shopping centre due to not have to take Lindelöf, Bailly etc punts so often. I completely understand why Ole and the club think it's the way to go after the last 6 years of focusing on mainly buying abroad.
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the last big name player we signed from PL is RVP ( Yes i am ignoring the Sanchez swap). I don't see any issues with buying from the PL but it comes with a huge 'local Tax'. Also if you look at the teams above us, none of them buy local ( unless its a squad option). So i don't see why should should adopt this tactic.

like i said we should buy good players regardless of which league they are in.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Ok, now it makes more sense.

I think we've failed so often these past 6 seasons with our overseas buying that Ole and the club want to get back to what served Fergie so well, by buying Premier League proven players.
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That's essentially settling for mediocrity, because the club capitulates to its bad scouting.
 
Our high wages make selling players difficult. We might have to settle for a loan with guaranteed money coming in and wages off the books. If we're going to loan good players, it makes sense not to give them to our rivals in the premier league

We have almost no players who would be getting paid higher elsewhere - Rashford is the one player who would and we're clearly trying to get a contract sorted for him to make that right. So they'll have to be taking a pay cut and clearly we're overpaying.
 
Velvet Revolver said:
the last big name player we signed from PL is RVP ( Yes i am ignoring the Sanchez swap). I don't see any issues with buying from the PL but it comes with a huge 'local Tax'. Also if you look at the teams above us, none of them buy local ( unless its a squad option). So i don't see why should should adopt this tactic.

like i said we should buy good players regardless of which league they are in.
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Personally I would consider Lukaku like a big name signing and he came at a big cost too, Schneiderlin also had a big reputation.
 
do.ob said:
That's essentially settling for mediocrity, because the club capitulates to its bad scouting.
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No it's not. Bayern do most of their buying in the Bundesliga for example, and it works bloody brilliantly for them.

Fergie proved for years how much more successful it could be to buy a Dwight Yorke or a Michael Carrick over a bigger name overseas.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
No it's not. Bayern do most of their buying in the Bundesliga for example, and it works bloody brilliantly for them.
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That's Bayern leveraging their dominance over Bundesliga, I don't think you can compare that to United/the PL and regardless of that this kind of policy has taken a considerable hit since foreign top clubs started taking a closer look at the league.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Ok, now it makes more sense.

I think we've failed so often these past 6 seasons with our overseas buying that Ole and the club want to get back to what served Fergie so well, by buying Premier League proven players.
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The problem is that Fergie's team was built around world class academy players, the PL signings were rarely the backbone of the team with few exceptions, it was mainly fillers. And I know that we signed the likes of Cole, Cantona, Keane and Ferdinand but it was over a relatively large time span.
 
do.ob said:
That's Bayern leveraging their dominance over Bundesliga, I don't think you can compare that to United/the PL and regardless that kind of policy has taken a considerable hit since foreign top clubs started taking a closer look at the league.
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I really don't get your point.

My point is, buying the best players proven in your league has proven to be successful. More of your signings become hits rather than misses.

Liverpool are another great example with the likes of VVD, Mane, Robertson, Wijnaldum, Milner.
 
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JPRouve said:
The problem is that Fergie's team was built around world class academy players, the PL signings were rarely the backbone of the team with few exceptions, it was mainly fillers. And I know that we signed the likes of Cole, Cantona, Keane and Ferdinand but it was over a relatively large time span.
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Bruce, Pallister, Cole, Yorke, Carrick, Cantona, Ferdinand, Ince, Parker, Berbatov, Tevez, Rooney, Keane.... took me 3 seconds that, should I continue?
 
do.ob said:
That's Bayern leveraging their dominance over Bundesliga, I don't think you can compare that to United/the PL and regardless of that this kind of policy has taken a considerable hit since foreign top clubs started taking a closer look at the league.
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We had the same dominance after Sir Alex retired, but we also have greedy owners and an absolutely incompetent board.

The first main mistake was not appointing a modern-thinking manager instead of fecking Moyes and giving him something like £250 million to splash on young world class talents. We still had some of the old guard, who could have been able to guide a new group of players and show them what United is all about. There is no way back now and we require huge changes to even begin thinking about having a fruitful long-term future.
 
Velvet Revolver said:
these so called 'Prem proven' players were players abroad at some point. What we need is to identify what kind of player fits our system not if they are in PL or not, quality of a player is not dependent on whether he is a specific league or not!
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This is what our (lack of ) football department should always aim too. Football nowadays is very continental. The EPL proven has become a myth, IMHO. Lukaku, Sanchez and Mata should definitely serve as an example.
 
After 6 years of misery, my take on it is that I'd much prefer United to overspend on AWB, Maguire & Sancho (being English) than to try finding gems in Europe that may or may not work out.

But then... it's not my money is it :)
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Bruce, Pallister, Cole, Yorke, Carrick, Cantona, Ferdinand, Ince, Parker, Berbatov, Tevez, Rooney, Keane.... took me 3 seconds that, should I continue?
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What was the point? I mentioned half of these players, it doesn't address my point and it's over a large time span, also like my initial post said I don't think that we should do it for foreign players.
 
André Dominguez said:
This is what our (lack of ) football department should always aim too. Football nowadays is very continental. The EPL proven has become a myth, IMHO. Lukaku, Sanchez and Mata should definitely serve as an example.
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I wouldn't say its a myth there have been some good players but a transfer policy purely based on PL talent is not good, for any team
 
JPRouve said:
The problem is that Fergie's team was built around world class academy players, the PL signings were rarely the backbone of the team with few exceptions, it was mainly fillers. And I know that we signed the likes of Cole, Cantona, Keane and Ferdinand but it was over a relatively large time span.
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You really cant build your team based on a once in a generation occurence. Our united way in the 90s isnt replicable without having another co92.
 
JPRouve said:
What was the point? I mentioned half of these players, it doesn't address my point and it's over a large time span, also like my initial post said I don't think that we should do it for foreign players.
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Ok, I'll break it down:

Fergie's team was built around world class academy players, the PL signings were rarely the backbone of the team with few exceptions, it was mainly fillers. And I know that we signed the likes of Cole, Cantona, Keane and Ferdinand but it was over a relatively large time span.
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The bolded is absolute tripe JP, his first team had pretty much no academy players in it. His 3rd team had very few. All 3 of his teams had a load of Premier League proven buys in them.

Team 1 backbone: Pallister/Bruce, Keane/Ince, Cantona


Team 2 backbone: Stam, Keane, Yorke


Team 3 backbone: Ferdinand, Carrick, Rooney
 
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Varun said:
One of the biggest problems we seem to be facing is being quoted outrageous prices for our targets while not getting bids of the same level for the ones we want to sell. Is it really a surprise though given we seem to want to do our buying in the PL where there's more money than sense while potential buyers for our players seem to come from abroad where clubs don't quite have the same level of dough and value players very differently?

Why don't we look abroad for players? Surely our scouting system is good enough to identify players abroad so it is a management call? If so, why?
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I think some of the reluctance to buy from abroad is due to the weak pound and uncertainty of Brexit. Quoting myself from another thread:

MikeUpNorth said:
Everyone is overlooking the major financial headwinds we are facing this summer due to the very weak strength of the pound. Not only does this mean players from European clubs cost us more than is reasonable, it means all those transfer fees we racked up in previous seasons (and that are still being paid off) cost us a lot more cash in current terms.

People talk about throwing around tens or hundreds of millions of pounds as if the club is free of commercial and macroeconomic trends.

You’ve got Brexit on the horizon in October as well, which if it goes badly, could further decimate the value of Sterling and mean that any Euro denominated transfers we agree this summer will end up costing us 20% more than budgeted over time. It’s no surprise we are looking to buy from British clubs - agreeing transfers in Euros would be pretty crazy at this point with all the uncertainty.
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I really don't get your point.

My point is, buying the best players proven in your league has proven to be successful. More of your signings become hits rather than misses.

Liverpool are another great example with the likes of VVD, Mane, Robertson, Wijnaldum, Milner.
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But Liverpool don't have a focus on signing PL players, the majority of their investment is on signings from Europe. And Robertson, Wijnaldum, Milner and to a lesser extend Mane weren't "the best players proven in your league", they were overlooked by other big clubs and as such are examples of good scouting / gambles, if United were (consistently) capable of that no one would be thinking about whether it might be best to switch to "pl proven".
 
Velvet Revolver said:
I wouldn't say its a myth there have been some good players but a transfer policy purely based on PL talent is not good, for any team
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It's sure a myth for us, then. Our EPL hiring in the last seasons have been expensive and poor. Our scouting might be at fault. though.
 
Yeah it's very hard to buy from other PL sides these says, the teams are minted. A young RB with one full season behind him is going to be bought for 50m and Leicester are demanding Pogba money for a defender who is barely better than our own. Lukaku, Matic, Mata, Sanchez were meant to be premier league proven, and our best players were brought from leagues outside of England. I don't think it's a scouting thing, rather a conscious decision from Ole and his staff to target homegrown/PL players.
 
do.ob said:
But Liverpool don't have a focus on signing PL players, the majority of their investment is on signings from Europe. And Robertson, Wijnaldum, Milner and to a lesser extend Mane weren't "the best players proven in your league"
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Harry Maguire and AWB aren't either, hence why they are playing where they are currently. You can't buy the "best" players, they already play for the top 4-5. I thought that point was obvious?

Put another way, I personally think the chances of Maguire and AWB succeeding at a top Premier League cup are much much more likely than the likes of say Danilo or Lindelöf.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Nonsense, VVD, Mane, Robertson, Wijnaldum, Milner are examples of the opposite, as are the likes of Sterling, Walker etc.
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Football is quite uniform in training methods / playing style nowadays. The gap of culture is not a big . And Wijnaldum made one season at Necastle and most of the people were not putting too much faith on him, tbh.

And tbh both Liverpool and City are having success with either "EPL proven" and non-EPL proven players.
 
André Dominguez said:
And tbh both Liverpool and City are having success with either "EPL proven" and non-EPL proven players.
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Obviously.

But as I say above, if put another way, I personally think the chances of Maguire and AWB succeeding at a top Premier League cup are much much more likely than the likes of say Danilo or Lindelöf.

Same goes for Mane over Pepe.
 
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