This whole Bale thing is comical. I think after the thrashing he probably realises he needs someone like Bale to score a few if he can. He won:t want to lose face and say he made a mistake/needs him so will be spun that the board blocked all of a sudden for no reason/change in circumstances (that we know of)
Zidane sack watch - 19/20
- Thread starter JoaquinJoaquin
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You're arguing with football's equivalent of climate deniers.
Doesn't make the term any less annoying - almost as much as 'agenda'. Why in God's name would anybody have an agenda against someone they've likely never met?
Why not? Its just a style of play.
Juve, Bayern and Barca dominate their league and perform in Europe. I think PSG is every bit as good as City.
They have the domestic dominance to match City, why are City and Pep above them?
Fecking Liverpool nearly knocked them over last year.
Pep has a horrendous away record in Europe for a reason. His pure view falls short of whats needed to be really elite and that isn't to be praised.
Klopp has shown him up in Europe and kept up in the league on a lesser budget.
You don't think Liverpool would be ridiculous if Klopp was allowed to spend every summer like Pep? A top class CB and CM and they would be on another level but Klopps hands are tied
Don't see the fuss. If City beat us 7-3 preseason we'd definitely just brush it off as an irrelevance to the season's prospects.
Is this sarcasm? Do you remember the Liverpool game last year? Preseason games are more important than many believe.
You are right, the caf would react totally rational and calm to a loss like that.
Really? Without using Google (and I'll know if you do) quote me 20 preseason results off the top of your head.
Lets hope they panic and go for salah/sane/mane now and klopp mid season. Next season go for VVD. Perfect!
Because money buys quality and Pep's style of play is the best to make an advantage in quality count. That's why they are so incredibly reliable against 'cannon fodder' and very rarely drop points. Klopp has understood this, hence he worked on Liverpool's possession game last season. Liverpool was already a great knock out team in 17/18 (as evidenced by them making it to the CL final) but they improved tremendously as a league side since they were much better in creating chances out of static situations.
And that's only logical. What happens if you have the better squad? Your opponents usually admit their disadvantage and leave the task of making the play to you. Klopp's original systen is about intense pressing and quick transition. Win the ball preferably high up the pitch and get in front of the goal with minimum contacts and if you lose the ball, gegenpressing or make sure everyone gets behind it as quickly as possible. But when you have the superior team and your opponent doesn't even wamt the ball respectively refuse to keep it long enough in dangerous areas for you to win it, that's where this system comes to it's limits. It's great against better teams and teams one eye level but if you have superior quality this is where it struggles.
Xavi once said that Pep's system is often misinterpreted. Pep doesn't care about possession. It is about outplaying the opponemt and creating clean chances instead of forcing it, e.g. through crosses, long shots or other measurements with low success rates. But if a team is in a deep defensive formation and offers no immediate weak spots, you pass it around until you find one, so the possession is a byproduct, not the purpose.
And that's the challenge every big team faces. You will inevitably end up with much possession since your opponents will accept their inferiority, understand that their likelihood of success is bigger when they avoid an open game and act accordingly. So you better find out how you can use that possession and reliably create something out of it. That's why Klopp worked on this aspect at Liverpool and he had donebit previously in Dortmund, too. It's no coincidence that some of Klopp's favourite players (Gündogan, Götze, Hummels, Lewandowski) later flourished in Guardiola type of systems.
So if you are able to spend more than anyone else you are most likely to also have a better team than anyone else. And when you have a better team than anyone else, it is most likely that you are expected to control the game and dominate the ball in every match you play (since the opponents will prefer to not have the ball too much, especially in dangerous areas). And Guardiolais the best in turning that possession (whose root is the qualitative advantage of the better team) in results because that is the whole point of his approach. The core of his philosophy, the one idea everything else revolves around. Total football, and Guardiola currently is the undemiable best who follows this school of thought. Klopp on the other hand is the best at nullifying said advantage of better teams/players like he has proven time and again.
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But Juve etc dominate their league and build for CL success. That's their aim and the aom of their managers.
If Pep spent as much money at those clubs and went out of CL in the same way then there would be serious questions. Asked.
Domestic success doesn't change that, they already have domestic success so what makes Peps any better? Win in Europe and You have an argument but right now he seems to have a squad that plays in such a way that they're exploited by the truly elite.
Learn not to concede 135 goals per CL campaign would be a start.
If Pep spent as much money at those clubs and went out of CL in the same way then there would be serious questions. Asked.
Domestic success doesn't change that, they already have domestic success so what makes Peps any better? Win in Europe and You have an argument but right now he seems to have a squad that plays in such a way that they're exploited by the truly elite.
Learn not to concede 135 goals per CL campaign would be a start.
Great post.
As I said, I can understand why it is questioned if his system is the best for the CL although personally, I'm convinced it is. This competition is just incredibly hard to win due to the luck factor in KO competitions.
That being said, the teams you mention all have the real difference makers in world football. Guys like Cristiano, Messi, Neymar and Mbappe. Look at the last 11 years. 5 CLs went to a team that featured Ronaldo, 3 to a team featuring Messi, one to a team that had prime-Robben and Ribery. The only exception is Chelsea and they fluked it.
Oh and by the way, of these 11 titles, two were won by Pep himself and another 6 by coaches/teams whose systems were heavily influenced by Guardiola himself (Zidane's Madrid, Enrique's Barca, Heynckes' Bayern).
Thing is, in order to win the CL you require luck. Much luck. When City and Liverpool meet, I'm sure most of us will bet on City if they had to choose. They are just a better team and would probably comfortably win a match up consisting of, say, 10 matches. Yet Liverpool won the CL, not City. Isn' that prove enough that the CL, though the most prestigious trophy in club football, is a badeasuring stick to judge the quality of a team and managrr?
I think you have great insight and I remember some of the tactical discussion Pep had with Bayern fans but still, Zidane is fundamentally different compared to Pep. His league forms showed that but he relied on a mega star in Ronaldo. Enrique and Heynckes are closer but more direct for me.
Bottom line, I think you can shut down and frustrate Pep’s system. Hopefully this shows up this season.
When they win, they're great. When they lose, it's luck. Cruyffism at its best.
Nothing to do with making wrong decisions, failing to adapt and consistently getting tactics wrong in the big CL knockout ties. Nope, it's all luck. It's a yearly competition but year after year he never gets luck on his side, it's always against him.
Best thing about being Pep Guardiola is it doesn't matter if you've been regularly underperforming for years in the Champions League because besides getting credit for his team's trophies he gets the credit for other teams' trophies too. After all, Heynckes's Bayern and Zidane's Madrid were obviously influenced by him and he deserves credit for it despite them not playing similarly to a Guardiola team and having been influenced by plenty of other teams and managers.
The best manager ever at translating a squad's superior quality to results lost a league title with arguably the best squad in football history to a José Mourinho team by 9 points. Does anyone actually believe Liverpool would be better than City if Klopp and Pep swapped teams?
Next to Klopp, Pep is the best manager in football today. He's an incredible manager but it's nauseating the amount of nonsense written by the Cruyff hipster cult about him
Nothing to do with making wrong decisions, failing to adapt and consistently getting tactics wrong in the big CL knockout ties. Nope, it's all luck. It's a yearly competition but year after year he never gets luck on his side, it's always against him.
Best thing about being Pep Guardiola is it doesn't matter if you've been regularly underperforming for years in the Champions League because besides getting credit for his team's trophies he gets the credit for other teams' trophies too. After all, Heynckes's Bayern and Zidane's Madrid were obviously influenced by him and he deserves credit for it despite them not playing similarly to a Guardiola team and having been influenced by plenty of other teams and managers.
The best manager ever at translating a squad's superior quality to results lost a league title with arguably the best squad in football history to a José Mourinho team by 9 points. Does anyone actually believe Liverpool would be better than City if Klopp and Pep swapped teams?
Next to Klopp, Pep is the best manager in football today. He's an incredible manager but it's nauseating the amount of nonsense written by the Cruyff hipster cult about him
Or when they lose it doesn't matter because they played the more ''artful football''(Whatever the feck that means).
As you said great manager but everything else is nauseating.
Last time went well, fingers crossed for more of the same ^^
Now you know how people feel about you and Ronaldo.
So many strawmen in here you could construct a... large strawman
Overall, I'm confused you gathered all that straw to end up with...
To win the CL you do require a lot of luck. You can also lose the CL through a combination of poor decision making/tactics and luck. Strawman 1
Some years he's fecked up (like every other manager), and some years he's been plain unlucky (like this one). Strawman 2
Strawman 3, obvious reason being obvious
Is this the Mourinho team that possessed, what you call the best player in the world?
Overall, I'm confused you gathered all that straw to end up with...
That's a reasonable statement that has no link to the straw you gathered prior.
Really? That's your answer? How about addressing the actual argumemts which I think I made a great many of instead of.. well, I can't even say what you argued there. All I read is some irrational rant against Guardiola and some strange Cruyff hipster cult. Conveniently for you, I attached the post under this one. I'm looking forward to your reply.
Oh and by the way, Zidane himself said that Guardiola was one of his role models. He said that when he was still managing the Castilla.
And that Bayern followed a possession oriemted system is no secret at all. They had van Gaal as a coach and reached the CL final with him. They decided that this should be the club's philosophy and their appointments were in line with that. It's no coincidemce that Guardiola ended up at Bayern ultimately.
So yeah, most teams winning big titles in recemt years were heavily influenced by Cruyff's school of thought, like it or not. I could even say, from the moment the Spanish national team won the EC, 2 of 3 WCs, 2 of 3 ECs and 7 of 11 CLs wemt to teams which quite obviously adapted Cruyff's ideas. Your turn.
Not true. We were better than them in 2017. Ref screwed up, sure, but we outplayed them in that tie, though it was close. 2018 too honestly. When you turn into peak PSG, you don't deserve to go through really
We had Cristiano since 2009, only started winning the CL after adding Bale and Modric and getting Ancelotti and Zidane on the bench. Barcelona won theirs with MSN at their peak. One trascendent player does not win you the CL
Of course they alone aren't enough. But it's no coincidence that they've won so many CLs. Players of that category significantly increase your chances.Not true. We were better than them in 2017. Ref screwed up, sure, but we outplayed them in that tie, though it was close. 2018 too honestly. When you turn into peak PSG, you don't deserve to go through really
We had Cristiano since 2009, only started winning the CL after adding Bale and Modric and getting Ancelotti and Zidane on the bench. Barcelona won theirs with MSN at their peak. One trascendent player does not win you the CL
Great posts @Zehner.
What's there to argue? You didn't make any arguments. You just give your opinions which I blatantly disagree with.
You think Guardiola's system is the best for the Champions League. I disagree. You think if City and Liverpool meet in a CL tie 10 times, City win more often. I disagree. You think Heynckes's Bayern and Zidane's Madrid are heavily influenced by Guardiola. I disagree.
@adexkola strawman number 1.
So what he was one of his role models? Zidane's Madrid took more from Benitez than they did for Guardiola ffs. They played nothing like a Guardiola team at all other than the fact they had technical players and a midfield who could control games.
The entire principles of their game were the exact opposite of that of a Guardiola team, their build up, pressing and attacking mechanics were completely different. Is that enough a disagreement? I'm not sure what's even there to argue with given how incredibly different our opinions are on the matter. Giving Guardiola credit for Heynckes' Madrid and Zidane's Madrid because they had lots of possession is just wrong.
My turn? I think every single thing you just claimed as fact there is entirely not true. If you think any team that averages out over 60% possession per game is a direct result of Guardiola then no shit you're going to give him credit for a lot of things.
The problem is when teams win, you pretend they're playing Cruyff-like football. When they lose, you say it's either luck or that it wasn't Cruyff-like football. Then of course that in your mind they rarely lose.
As if great teams didn't have lots of possession and could build from the back before both Guardiola or Cruyff...
What Zidane used from Guardiola at Madrid was the idea of positional play how to attack - fullbacks out wide (Marcelo and Carvajal), wingers coming inside (CR7 and Bale) and midfielders as protectors of counterattack (Modric, Casemiro, Kroos). If you think about it it is very similar to Pep's Barca model. The main difference is that Zidane did not require from his players to build from the back constantly and Real didnt keep always the numerical superiority across the pitch wich is very important aspect of the positional play. Also the pressing of Madrid was not as intense as it is needed for a Pep team to be safe when losing possession (with quick counterpress). Thats why Zidane's Madrid was and is very vulnerable to counterattacks..
@Zehner doing bits in here. Top posts.
Amazing how much people can take from a pre season loss. This season is going to be fun.
He's been in charge for months though.
So?
I'm hoping they finish 3rd in their CL group and draw us at some stage in the Europa. Sacked the next day 
This thread will age well.
I think no matter what he won't get the sack, he'll get another season for sure, you can quote me on this. But he might resign if he feels that he can't straighten the ship.
I think no matter what he won't get the sack, he'll get another season for sure, you can quote me on this. But he might resign if he feels that he can't straighten the ship.
Madrid played it long a lot more often using Kroos to shift the side of the attack. They were a crossing team even exceedingly so at times, which is the exact opposite of what a Pep team is. They didn't press anywhere near as hard after losing the ball. They prefered attacking through the flanks rather than through the middle and used their midfield to stop counters and switch play rather than to find the forwards in between the lines with vertical passes. They were nowhere near as cautious at keeping possession, it's true the fullbacks pushed forward but even then the way they attacked was very different from the way fullbacks typically attack with Pep since at Madrid overlaps were nowhere near as common.
There are thousands of different managers through football history you could give credit to for Madrid's CL wins if having some similarities in the way they play is all it takes.
Its a continuation, its not out of the blue.
Imagine Ole fecked per season, would we be calm? Madrid finished the season as bad as we did
Guardiola fans are the worst. Football basically didn't exist before he showed up.
More straw!!!
Right on. Thanks for this. Everyone loves big budget Pep.
Go tell me how wrong i am in a Pep thread, I'll definitely read it
@Peyroteo If you want to pin Aguero missing a penalty and Laporte and Ederson shitting the bed on Pep go ahead. Just hints at an agenda, when there are a bunch of campaigns where one can rightly blame Pep.
But back to how Zidane is a fraud despite his trophy count, and is doomed to fail and be sacked this season. Hard to keep track of the frauds in management nowadays.
But back to how Zidane is a fraud despite his trophy count, and is doomed to fail and be sacked this season. Hard to keep track of the frauds in management nowadays.
Nah I'm busy taking all this fraudulent straw