Is our Midfield that Bad?

[Ace of Spades]

Apart from Matic, defensively I think the midfield is fine and would provide good protection to our defence. The problem is going forward, and the creativity. I have no belief in either Mata or Lingard to be consistent creative outlets to our forward line.

 

[Paul778]

I've got a feeling that with so many CDs that Ole might be tempted/forced to bring one of these into midfield. Or move to a back 5 on occasion.

 

[Ødegaard]

Matic was terrible last year, but there's reason to believe he can improve his form

No there isn't.

I'd argue that trio is better than Liverpool's.

That's silly.

Then you have Gomes and Garner who can both play in midfield

Gomes isn't a midfielder. I can't for the life of me see him play in midfield. It will be on the wings or as a #10, that is it. Garner is untested, never mind unproven.

I think we could definitely use a better number ten, where we have Mata, Lingard and Gomes, but if played regularly as a ten, Mata may surprise a few of us

Mata has never played as a #10 for stretches of time. Under any of his managers (to my knowledge). He isn't all that creative either in terms of movement. His creativity comes from technique alone. Not good for a free-flowing attacking side. As far as I know, the "Mata is a creative 10" is a myth.

I think the lack of a new attacking player is actually more of a concern!

I can't even agree with your conclusion even if I would agree with all the other stuff. We have (according to your post) Pogba who is a world class creator and Mata who will surprise everyone as a creative #10. Yet we put our faith in Matic who may find form and you are more worried about the attacking contribution from our midfield?

People aren't worried for the loss of Herrera & Fellaini because of their qualities. They are worried because despite their qualities, they were still better than most of the lot we have now as a starter (Herrera) & bench-alternative (Fellaini).

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

A lot of fans don't appreciate what a good midfield is.

The beauty and genius of so many midfielders is to read the game. Therefore a lot of their work is done off the ball.

And this goes unnoticed by so many fans.

For example: Our fan base was giving out about our midfield ever since we lost Roy Keane in 2005 right up until Fergie retired in 2013. They kept saying 'our midfield isn't good enough', 'we have no world class midfielders', 'Fletcher is shit', 'We need a Roy Keane-type', 'moan, moan, moan, moan.' For years!

Yet - the midfielders between 2005 - 2013 turned out to be our best midfield of all time, because that was the most successful period in our entire 140-year history.

That midfield won five league titles in those seven seasons and got us to three Champions League finals.

Some fans were still giving out. Even today, you still read 'fans' complaining that Fergie never sorted the midfield after Keane's exit.

They clearly don't understand what it takes to create a great midfield.

In any one game, any player only ever has the ball at his feet for 2% of the ninety minutes; yet fans will ONLY judge what he does during that 2%.. they miss the entirety of the other 98%. And that other 98% is what is key for midfielders and defenders.

Our midfield is perfectly balanced at the moment.

We have three positions:

A No.6
A No.8
A No.10

For each of those options, we have

No.6 McTominay, Matic, Garner
No.8 Pobga, Fred, Pereira
No.10 Sanchez, Mata, Lingard, Gomes

Paul Pogba is arguably the best midfielder in the world, and people are giving out that our midfield isn't good enough.

I want to be positive as much the next man, but considering we had most of those options last year, plus Herrera and Fellaini, and we were not great in midfield for the majority of the season I can see why people are concerned. I think you're right to say there isn't a lack of options, but there is certainly a lack of proven PL quality there.

The point you make about work off the ball is well made, but we've just lost one of our most industrious midfielders and have added no quality players. What you're asking is for Ole's work with the team and the likes of Fred, Pereira, Gomes and Garner being a year on negate the loss of Herrera and turn around what we saw last year, which was us being dominated in midfield by every top opponent, and if we're honest most half-decent ones too. I truly hope the work we've done and the change in tactics will at least lead to improvements in our midfield unit, how they use the ball and as you say how they work off it, but I don't think you can blame anyone who saw us last year and saw our proven PL options effectively become weaker over the summer for being concerned about how we'll perform in the middle this year.

 

[Enigma_87]

Our starting CMs (Pogba, McSauce) can be world class and very good on their days respectively, but both have a low bar when things are not going well. Their back ups however, have lower highs and disastrous lows.

If one of Pogba/McT is rested, we're always one brainfart under pressure away from Matic/Fred losing the ball to a high press which usually ends in a goalscoring chance. Fred never seems composed on the ball and Matic cannot track back. Pereira is a feisty one going forward, but he's not really shown that he has it in him defensively.

Over the course of a season, we'll lose more games because of the midfield than win due to their contributions. It's easy to press us, it's easy to outnumber us, it's easy to outrun us and it's easy to pass circles around us as even Inter have shown.

We're walking on a thin line with no quality depth, our midfield is indeed an absolute mess in terms of defensive abilities, keeping the ball moving or resisting press.

McT is not world class. Pogba on his day is, but if he's expected to carry the whole midfield on his own he's just not that type and not that character. Our midfield is a huge mess and one injury away from relegation level.

 

[charlenefan]

If Pogba & McTominay play week in week out, missing very few games between them, playing to their potential then our midfield is fine. That's a lot of if's though

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Pogba - our only creative outlet, wants to leave the club, destined to down tools.
Matic - has been done at the top level for over a year or so.
Fred - doesn't look starting material.
McTominay - reliable squad option, it appears.
Pereira - not top 6 standard.


So yeah, it's absolutely shocking.

 

[Negative Red]

It seems that United are relying too much on hoping certain players can step up. Fred, Pereira, Rashford, Martial, James, McTominay. All of which are good players, but we're needing them to perform on a consistant basis, which they haven't done previously..Let's just hope.

 

[Red Royal]

Have Lindelov or Tuanzabe ever been tried in midfield? I seem to recall Axel did play against Arsenal under Mourinho in midfield and came out of that okay (though we lost the match).

I know, those two are just getting established as CBs and normally I dont like the square pegs in round holes approach; however given our midfield options it may be worth trying, perhaps in Europa or if we get an easy (on paper) League Cup draw.
They both are comfortable on the ball with a decent enough array of passing.

 

[settembrini]

I think the fairest way to assess our midfield is that it's a bit of a question mark.

If Pogba plays consistently well and at least one of McTominay/Fred step up and have a good season then it will be fine.

If Pogba is inconsistent or worse and we end up using Matic a lot this season then it will be a disaster.

I'm optimistic about the former but it is fair to be worried about the possibility of the latter.

 

[Hammondo]

Basically we have no one who runs the midfield, and if we get 1 injury it really falls apart quickly.

 

[Tom Cato]

For all the megadoom and gloom going on here: This team has absolutely crushed it in pre-season.

Let's give them a chance.

 

[passing-wind]

If you've really got to ask yourself rewind to the PSG home fixture. After the game Ole mentioned they were a level above and we lost the game in the midfield.

Skip forward next season and we have an even worse midfield. The midfield with Herrera in it was below par now it's absolutely garbage all it takes is for Pogba to request a move in January and we will have the quality to contend for an 8th spot.

 

[cyberman]

Do we need that much cover in midfield? We've basically got the league campaign and a few cup games to play this year.
I'd be shocked if Pogba played more than 40 games this year.

 

[Enigma_87]

For all the megadoom and gloom going on here: This team has absolutely crushed it in pre-season.

Let's give them a chance.

Yeah, I'm sure we will finish above Leeds, Kristiansund and Perth Glory this year in the league.

 

[Tom Cato]

Yeah, I'm sure we will finish above Leeds, Kristiansund and Perth Glory this year in the league.

What a legendary strawman argument. Why not just say Inter, Milan and Tottenham to make it even more well thought out?

 

[Enigma_87]

What a legendary strawman argument. Why not just say Inter, Milan and Tottenham to make it even more well thought out?

Pre-season friendlies means nothing. It's where you test ideas, get back some shape and you have two different teams each half. Winning against those sides makes absolutely no difference to the state our midfield will be come the competitive part of the season.

 

[WPMUFC]

Here's the basics, with pogba playing a full season, zero injuries, zero rests, it's a top 4 midfield. If pogba has any extended period out, it's barely a top 10 midfield.

If we even have run of the mill injuries, you could see a midfield of Matic, McSauce, Fred. We'd be destroyed week-in and week-out with these guys.

 

[Negative Red]

Do we need that much cover in midfield? We've basically got the league campaign and a few cup games to play this year.
I'd be shocked if Pogba played more than 40 games this year.

Every season we have a league campaign and a few cup games. If we want to win a few of the cup games, i.e Europa League for Champions League qualification, it would probably be in Uniteds best interest to play Pogba. We desperately needed more quality in midfield. Be prepared to be shocked.

 

[BazzaBear]

Matic
McTommy Pogba​

Isn’t a bad trio

But

Fred
Jesse Angel?
​

Isn’t really top level cover. We really needed Longstaff or someone with similar attributes.

But surely that's not the formation we're intending to play? It will be two of Matic, Pogba, McTominay or Fred behind a number 10.

 

[broccoli]

Not from a FM aficcionado POV. Fred, Pogba Pereira, MacTominey, Matic are all perfectly valid options to build a well functioning midfield.

You'd argue it's one too many if you were playing a 2man pivot like in a 442 or even 4231. Many options for AMC as well.

 

[manuchamp88]

It's quite terrible, yeah.

Matic is liability.
Fred has been quite shocking so far.
Pereira not good enough, he is like a Lukaku of midfielders. Passing is just terrible for a midfielder.
McTominay can be decent depending on which position he is played in.
Garner is not ready.

Why don't we just get Marchisio on free for a bit more stability and experience? 1 year contract, we can't lose.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

We are not catching Pool or City with the changes, so the question then becomes are we the best of the rest? Well Chelsea were on a transfer ban so that leaves Spurs and Arsenal.

Spurs did splash a lot of cash strengthening midfield which was easily their weakest area, with Ndombele and Lo Celso. But both players will probably take a year to adapt and settle. So their midfield will be something like Eriksen or Lo Celso up top, Winks and Ndombele or Sissoko sitting deep. They do have some good depth now, Lo Celso can come in for Winks or Eriksen, NDombele and Sissoko can rotate. And they can call on old school midfield destroyers like Dier and Wanyama to close out games.

Arsenal brought in what I thought were great signings, I thought they could of used an upgrade over Xhaka but they did quite well tbh. I imagine a midfield of Xhaka, Torreira, Ceballos as the starters when fit, Ceballos up top, Torreira, Xhaka sitting deeper.

Is our midfield much worse than Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal?

 

[Withnail]

Maybe great is an overstatement, but he was definitely important in securing is that second place.

Matic looked brilliant for a handful of games and did well enough that first season but performances got worse as the season went on.

The decline continued last year and he looked worse again pre-season. I'd be delighted if he turned it all around but all the evidence points to a terminal decline, in my opinion.

 

[Withnail]

McTominay looks better at 8 to me. Matic looks done and Garner is completely unproven but could turn out to be decent.
We do have flexibility in terms of numbers but I’m not sure you can really count someone like Sanchez as we’d be overrun completely with him and Pogba in a midfield three, due to the weakness at DM.

Unfortunately it’s more to do with the fact that the quality in the first three isn’t good enough. Yes Pogba is brilliant, but after that the drop off is so massive, especially creatively. The likes of Lingard, Fred, Pereira should all be creative options but they aren’t really offering anything. Add in one more high level midfielder instead of one of the squad options and it’s a different proposition.

Also, this is made worse by the fact that our attack is so under powered on paper. Hopefully Martial/Rashford step up, but going into a season with so many questions about attack and midfield is dumb.

That's the problem as I see it too. There is no first choice number 6 you can trust, let alone a second choice. The team was crying out for a DM this transfer window and I reckon we'll be desperate to sign one come Jan.

McTominay looks much more comfortable at 8 and can possibly do a job at 6. It would have been much better to have eased him into that 6 role against the lesser teams or in the Europa, if the Ole's goal is to have him play there long-term.

We'll have to see how things go but I don't believe there is enough strength in depth for a full season. A couple of injuries in mid-field and the wheels could easily come off again.

 

[Ikon]

Why don't we just get Marchisio on free for a bit more stability and experience? 1 year contract, we can't lose.

Can we still sign players from Europe on loan..?
In my opinion, that would be great business, a couple of experienced players, still with gas in the tank like Marchesio or Matuidi, just to get us through this season.

 

[BazzaBear]

Caf wisdom states that our midfield is immeasurably weakened because we've lost Fellaini who never played and Herrera who rarely played.

Also, it's clear that we will definitely play like the team from the last couple of months of the season because we haven't changed the personnel much.

But we can't possibly play like the team from the turn of the year, even though we haven't changed the personnel much.

You can't argue with any of that. It's pure logic.

 

[Withnail]

For all the megadoom and gloom going on here: This team has absolutely crushed it in pre-season.

Let's give them a chance.

Winning all your Pre-season games has zero impact on how your season will go.

 

[Rossa]

Your post is well written and has made me feel slightly better about not signing any midfielders. We do have some decent players in there if they play to their potential and feel maybe we can get results if all these guys improve and stay fit. I remain optimistic about this season. Everyone thinks we will finish 6th and that suits me just fine. Take the pressure away from the lads. Play your game and I think we can surprise a few. I also feel Sanchez is going to be our best player this year.

I think our team played well below their potential last year. When Solskjær took over, we saw an immense improvement, which unfortunately faded. However, if we can keep that momentum due to more experienced players, understanding his style of play and players like Fred settling, I think we can improve drastically. If we bought more players, we would have expected them to need time to adapt as well. I think we have strengthened in defense. Hopefully, our other players can play to their potential. I also hope, with a slim hope, that Sanchez can improve - player of the year, I doubt it, but I also doubt he is finished. People here seem to think that you are finished at the age of 30, whereas that is actually your prime, slightly depending on position.

 

[Tom Cato]

Winning all your Pre-season games has zero impact on how your season will go.

You know what doesn't hurt? Winning all your pre-season games, having the team play an incredibly fast paced game, using your new signings and drill them perfectly into their roles, having Mason Greenwood play roundabout with his Premier League counterparts, Paul Pogba playing with some intensity, playing the high press game, play from the back game that Ole wants to play, running an avg of 10% more than the last season pr game, and starting the season with some positivity.

 

[TJ Reid]

A lot of fans don't appreciate what a good midfield is.

The beauty and genius of so many midfielders is to read the game. Therefore a lot of their work is done off the ball.

And this goes unnoticed by so many fans.

For example: Our fan base was giving out about our midfield ever since we lost Roy Keane in 2005 right up until Fergie retired in 2013. They kept saying 'our midfield isn't good enough', 'we have no world class midfielders', 'Fletcher is shit', 'We need a Roy Keane-type', 'moan, moan, moan, moan.' For years!

Yet - the midfielders between 2005 - 2013 turned out to be our best midfield of all time, because that was the most successful period in our entire 140-year history.

That midfield won five league titles in those seven seasons and got us to three Champions League finals.

Some fans were still giving out. Even today, you still read 'fans' complaining that Fergie never sorted the midfield after Keane's exit.

They clearly don't understand what it takes to create a great midfield.

In any one game, any player only ever has the ball at his feet for 2% of the ninety minutes; yet fans will ONLY judge what he does during that 2%.. they miss the entirety of the other 98%. And that other 98% is what is key for midfielders and defenders.

Our midfield is perfectly balanced at the moment.

We have three positions:

A No.6
A No.8
A No.10

For each of those options, we have

No.6 McTominay, Matic, Garner
No.8 Pobga, Fred, Pereira
No.10 Sanchez, Mata, Lingard, Gomes

Paul Pogba is arguably the best midfielder in the world, and people are giving out that our midfield isn't good enough.

Sanchez is not a number 10 - more a 7 or 11

 

[Withnail]

Can we still sign players from Europe on loan..?
In my opinion, that would be great business, a couple of experienced players, still with gas in the tank like Marchesio or Matuidi, just to get us through this season.

You can still sign free agents but Marchisio was released by Zenit after 1 year of a 2 year deal.
He only made a handful of appearances for them last year. His knees seem gone so hardly what we need.

 

[londonredmaniac]

We have no creativity bar Pogba, we are relying on McTominay who has had a handful of really impressive games. I hope he continues, but he is young and can't take that burden alone surely?

What have we got after that? Fred has been poor, Matic is absolutely dreadful, Pereira is average at best. Herrera is better than all 3 of those...he left for free and wasn't replaced.

My hope is Fred improves and becomes something like the player we wanted when we bought. Maybe Pereira can improve if given regular games. They are two huge if scenarios though.

As far as pre season goes, that is insignificant. You are making 11 changes, playing teams at 50 percent and are playing under zero pressure. It's a fitness builder and a chance to give some kids a go. Yes you can try different styles of play, formations etc but really...it's not any great indication.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Caf wisdom states that our midfield is immeasurably weakened because we've lost Fellaini who never played and Herrera who rarely played.

Also, it's clear that we will definitely play like the team from the last couple of months of the season because we haven't changed the personnel much.

But we can't possibly play like the team from the turn of the year, even though we haven't changed the personnel much.

You can't argue with any of that. It's pure logic.

The same Herrera who when played alongside Matic and Pogba made our best midfield 3? It's insanity that we didn't reinforce the midfield. There are so many "what ifs" looming their ugly heads over the midfield.

Matic - has been very poor and is clearly on the decline.
Fred - hasn't impressed consistently. Can make a difference IF he steps it up.
Pereira - IF he can step it up, he can at least contribute. Not top class though.
McTominay - IF not played alongside Matic, can be a fantastic squad option over a long season. But can he be consistent?
Pogba - No matter what Ole says, his heart is not here. Don't think us failing to reinforce midfield would have helped convince him to stay past next season. Our only real quality mdifielder.

 

[Varun]

Yes

 

[Withnail]

You know what doesn't hurt? Winning all your pre-season games, having the team play an incredibly fast paced game, using your new signings and drill them perfectly into their roles, having Mason Greenwood play roundabout with his Premier League counterparts, Paul Pogba playing with some intensity, playing the high press game, play from the back game that Ole wants to play, running an avg of 10% more than the last season pr game, and starting the season with some positivity.

I'm not writing the team off at all. You are right there were positive signs in pre-season and I'm optimistic the team can make top 4.

However, this thread is about the midfield and there were also serious question marks, once Pogba was removed and Matic started.

 

[Real Madras]

Play him through the middle and he would even cause Van Dijk problems. Play him out wide and I feel he’s too one dimensional. I’m not confident in Rashford getting us goals. He’s not a proper finisher.

I think our team played well below their potential last year. When Solskjær took over, we saw an immense improvement, which unfortunately faded. However, if we can keep that momentum due to more experienced players, understanding his style of play and players like Fred settling, I think we can improve drastically. If we bought more players, we would have expected them to need time to adapt as well. I think we have strengthened in defense. Hopefully, our other players can play to their potential. I also hope, with a slim hope, that Sanchez can improve - player of the year, I doubt it, but I also doubt he is finished. People here seem to think that you are finished at the age of 30, whereas that is actually your prime, slightly depending on position.

 

[2mufc0]

Maybe the starters can do a job, though Matic needs to seriously improve from his pre season from otherwise it won't be pretty.

The bigger issue is the lack of depth, once we get a few injuries we will be in trouble. Maybe Youngy can play there, it's what we normally do when we need to plug holes.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Pogba - 9 when he cares, 4 when he sulks
Mctominay - solid 7, still young and learning
Matic - 5, will get slower and slower
Fred - 5, still hope he could improve
Pierrera - 5, reserve player, bench quality

So as you can see, our midfield is totally depend on Pogba. When he sulk or not playing, we have one of the worst midfield in the league. When he does care though, we are ok.

 

[Adam-Utd]

We went toe to toe with Spurs in the first 45 minutes in our friendly, I honestly don't feel like we are THAT bad.

Our depth isn't great and we could do with a proper Matic upgrade, but Pogba/Mctominay has the basis of a tasty partnership.

If the front 4 do their jobs properly then the midfield boys won't have to work quite as much.

 

[Untd55]

I would say there are eight teams with a better midfield than us: Man City, Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal, Wolves, Everton, Watford. We were outplayed by Everton and Wolves towards the end of last season and struggled to impose ourselves against Cardiff and Huddersfield. For me, that is a sign of just how bad it is. It has been weakened on top of that, with the loss of Herrera, and there isn't any youth coming through in that area (McTominay was already in the team last season).

I think we needed two midfielders this summer, but could have got away with signing one. The problem is when you delay a problem it just gets worse; next year Pogba will leave and we will need three midfielders.