hate to do edgar and question other lists but really!?
RedCafe's Top 20 (30) by Position | Please check out the last threadmark
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Screw you?
Jeez why did I put a qeution mark their?
@Michaelf7777777 is the ultimate hipster. Khurtsilava ahead of Cannavaro if I recall correctly.
I'll try to finish the stoppers list soon and then I'll close the right backs thread and set up one for the left backs. Sorry for the delay, I've seen that there had been a lot of activity in the RB thread lately.
For obscure Georgian right-backs that the foreign hipster would appreciate, i was a big fan of Omari Tetradze back in the '90s. If the ussr had stayed together he likely would have been Bessonov's replacement by 93-94 or so, though he was initially a centre midfielder. Very current(or contemporary brazilian) in style, lots of flair and skill on the ball he had a croqueta that Littbarski and laudrup would have approved of. For added enigma points, as soon as he signed for Roma and had the chance to show if he could step up in the best league, was devastated by serious injuries, barely played and never recovered.
Next season they bought Cafu.
Next season they bought Cafu.
Still my favorite Vidic moment. Wasn't even on the pitch
You can post in the thread by the way. I only ask not to post anything other than the names before the vote is concluded (and the info is transferred to my excel table).Still my favorite Vidic moment. Wasn't even on the pitch
He looks so proud
So a tier 1 GOAT cb finishing out of top 5 on both lists, if you ever needed proof we fecked up with categories
There are 2 Briegels on your list.
With the recent complaints in mind, I think this post deserves attention. Perhaps we can see after finishing the project if we have the desire & energy left to revise the CB lists, or if we leave that for a rerun in a few years' time.
And we should definitely take care not to run into similar problems for the upcoming positions.
I think re-running the CB lists should be fine after all the other categories as they will take a while anyway. Also you could tag everyone who had previously rated provided a list to amend them.
In my mind there are two CBs who really need clarification - Figueroa and Nesta.
I'm sure I'd put Figueroa in as a ball-player. Nesta I'm not so sure. Did he play alongside an obvious ball-playing type?
Also, any other CBs who people think needed clarifying/ who appeared in both the ball-playing and stopper category?
Like I said earlier, if Figueroa isn't a sweeper, I don't know who is. Among all the GOAT sweepers he's the best when it comes to passing and creativity. He played next to Alberto Quintano, who's as stopper a stopper you can find.
Placing him anywhere among the stoppers is completely disingenuous.
Placing him anywhere among the stoppers is completely disingenuous.
That's one option (the quicker & easier one). But the opposition against the category definitions in general ("ballplayers" vs physical stoppers) has been quite fierce too, so that may have to be considered as well.
True
reckon LB spot will be the only spot were everyone has the same player at the top 
Yup. The only undisputed positional GOAT.reckon LB spot will be the only spot were everyone has the same player at the top
So here's Synco's CM categories from before and I think we should do with it
Defensive Midfielders
DLPs & Playmaking CMs
Box-to-box Midfielders
Attacking Midfielders & Classic #10s
The question now to answer is what categories does each player go in?
B2B - Keane
Defensive - Rikjaard, Stielike,
Which other potentially debatable players have a missed between B2B and Defensive?
Also are we allowing two versions of players in a couple of categories? E.g. Scholes and Schuster. If we do I think we should note that on the list as it would make more sense to see old Scholes and younger Scholes on a list than just Scholes on two lists.
Defensive Midfielders
DLPs & Playmaking CMs
Box-to-box Midfielders
Attacking Midfielders & Classic #10s
The question now to answer is what categories does each player go in?
B2B - Keane
Defensive - Rikjaard, Stielike,
Which other potentially debatable players have a missed between B2B and Defensive?
Also are we allowing two versions of players in a couple of categories? E.g. Scholes and Schuster. If we do I think we should note that on the list as it would make more sense to see old Scholes and younger Scholes on a list than just Scholes on two lists.
I’d say the greatest potential for confusion here is between the defensive and box-to-box midfielders. We could end up with a narrow category for defensive midfielders, because I think you can make solid box-to-box cases for almost any CM who played in a 442.
I was thinking we could go for-
DMs and defensive B2B
Attacking B2B
Davids and Keane in the former, Matthaus and Breitner in the latter
DM and defensive B2B
CM and offensive B2B
All playmakers(DM, CM and maybe guys like Iniesta that didnt play as a N10 or you include number 10s as well)
CM and offensive B2B
All playmakers(DM, CM and maybe guys like Iniesta that didnt play as a N10 or you include number 10s as well)
I think this works but not sure whether to have 10s on their own. I think though separating 10s is probably a good idea mainly so other types of playmaker aren't just ignored.
Um, is it possible to do a “Top 20 multi-purpose/utility players” ranking, provided there's sufficient interest? Was looking to add Gianluca Pessotto to one of the fullback lists as a hipster nomination but he didn't make the cut when push came to shove. However, I'd definitely vote for him (and a few other unfashionable players aside from obvious candidates like Gullit/Júnior/Charles) if that new category is created. Dunno, just a passing thought...
Id have a list for creative “forwards” so all final third playmakers are in the same category. N10s, creative ss, wide playmakers etc.
I think midfield #10s should be seperated from forward playmakers. Netzer was a clear midfielder, Messi, Ronaldinho etc. are clear forwards. Dividing line somewhere around Maradona, Zico.
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Agreed. Also I would generally be happy with a central midfield 10 and forward 10 in the same side but not two midfield 10s.
Zico seems more of a forward, possibly even a second-striker from what I have seen. Maradona's game on the other hand is based more around passing than Zico.
But what do you think about 10s with the playmaker category or one on their own? Before you can answer this what do you think of the DMs and defensive B2B together with the offensive B2Bs separately?
Zico could easily play in midfield and did. As far as I remember he did the famous demolition of Liverpool playing as a deep playmaker.
But probably agree to him being a forward. Similar to Pele.
I don't think he was that deep against Liverpool at least compared with how deep Netzer and Platini played. Even so it was more of a dribbling break the lines and goals performance rather than a passing master class. That was my main point. I could be misremembering
Agree though you will always have some that are screwed or you will end up with to many categories.
New categorisation idea-
DM and defensive B2B
Attacking B2B and goalscoring 8s (Lampard, Gerrard, Ballack etc)
Midfield playmakers (DLPs and CMs)
Attacking midfielders (Iniesta, Gascoigne etc) and 10
Hopefully this should make the categorisation that bit better. On the physicalish CM type we have the more defensive ones in DM and defensive B2B, with the more attacking ones in the attacking B2B and goalscoring 8s.
Proper midfield playmakers in one category. Finally creative attacking midfielders with proper 10s.
In a way I really have the distinction between physical and creative distinguished by pitch position.
DM and defensive B2B
Attacking B2B and goalscoring 8s (Lampard, Gerrard, Ballack etc)
Midfield playmakers (DLPs and CMs)
Attacking midfielders (Iniesta, Gascoigne etc) and 10
Hopefully this should make the categorisation that bit better. On the physicalish CM type we have the more defensive ones in DM and defensive B2B, with the more attacking ones in the attacking B2B and goalscoring 8s.
Proper midfield playmakers in one category. Finally creative attacking midfielders with proper 10s.
In a way I really have the distinction between physical and creative distinguished by pitch position.
Id keep just a CM theme instead of goalscoring 8s which are included in there + you also get space for complete midfielders like Seedorf, Overath, Gazza etc.
It's not goalscoring as such it's more attacking physical midfielders really who aren't traditionally creative.
Overath I would have has a CM playmaker and Gazza attacking creative midfielder. Seedorf is very much an edge case but would put him in attacking midfielders as he was more technical and creative than say Ballack.
Midfield playmakers (DLP & Attacking B2Bs) - Xavi, Iniesta, Spanish Suarez, PR Falcao, Pirlo, Masopust, van Hanegem, Neeskens etc
Defensive Midfielders (DMs and Defensive B2Bs) - Makelele, Keane, Vieira, Cerezo, Simeone etc
Attacking midfielders (#10)
Matthaus transcends both defensive and attacking B2B lists, but I'd put him in the attacking bucked simply because that's the role he won the Balon d'Or in.
I understand wanting fewer categories but it would be better to put midfield playmakers with 10s than attacking B2B as their style of play is more similar. Neeskens and Xavi together doesn't make much sense to me. Xavi with Platini makes more sense.
I do think four midfielder categories makes the most sense though.
Neeskens, Xavi and Iniesta imo are midfielders who venture forward and support attack. Platini is a #10 who drops back. For me there is a big distinction on their roles. If we had a heat map comparison, I'd presume both Neeskens and Xavi would have a similar area of coverage from around halfway line to edge of box.
That's probably true but what they do for the team is entirely different. I prefer to focus on their role rather than position per se as role explains more how they function in the team. I do though think my four fold distinction covers both role and heat map very well.
It's just that the line between attacking B2B and a midfield playmaker is very thin. van Hanegem, Schweinsteiger, Modric and even Scholes who was famous for his late runs into box effectively cuts across both categories.