If you also need me to answer his question then you probably also need to do some extra reading before we continue a conversation. Again not calling you stupid but if you understand systemic racism to any extent you'll understand why I can't really spend time replying to the oist.
Paul Pogba racially abused on social media
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
Oh really now? Because you understand I myself am not white, right? And that you are using the term in the wrong way and clearly just spouting what others have told you to say. I don't need this false emotional crap.
Subconscious bias... Can we keep the pseudo psychology hokum out of this?
It would be conscious bias in any case. And I would expect all the ex-footballer pundits to be (consciously) biased against modern day footballers over things like their attitude, loyalty, desire, being obsessed with their optics on social media platforms rather than their performances in training etc etc. That has nothing to do with race. It's like comparing Lingard with AWB. One is a twat with his own fragrance, while the other appears to be more of a chip off the old block as far as footballers go. No prizes for guessing who every pundit and fan in the country would tell you they prefer in terms of attitude. That's conscious bias dictated by how they behave, and unrelated to skin colour.
So because pogba is a footballer then there can't be systemic racism?................
OK for sure your wumming. So I'll drop our conversation.
Nope but equally it could. It's amazing how when people don't think the Mics are on, how they share a different view and I'm sure many people might have said the same of them. Big Rom could have been seen as a pioneer of promoting black players when he managed West Brom, but clearly harboured racist views equally. Football is a very racist institution from top to bottom.
He's received many of the same criticisms and tabloid gossip about his personal life and character as Sterling did but because so many of our fans despise him it's hardly ever acknowledged even reluctantly.
Just last summer after winning the world cup, the British tabloids printed rumors of his pregnant fiancee being on hard drugs,we had the whole nonsensical 'baller' story during Jose's implosion last season, reporting on his every expense like Sterling etc. The parallels are clear for anyone to see.
Sterling got a reprieve and became a sympathetic figure after years of a concerted media driven agenda against him due to being abused while on England duty and playing for the best team in the land (and for the media darling scousers to his begin his career) which opened the eyes of many that were unsympathetic and even hostile to him prior. Pogba doesn't have the luxury of having that common link with his most vocal critics so I hardly expect much of that to change until he's left the country.
He'll continue to be a lightning rod and everyone's favorite/go to scapegoat when things aren't all rosy and adversity hits
[/QUOTE]
OK so this is the point. You don't understand the phrase so the answer to your question is no.
Can a English person be racist to you?
Yes
Is that systemic racism?
No.
Just for the people calling Neville out for being less critical of English players need to remember that Gary wants English players playing at the highest level for the sake of the national team. It’s as simple as that.
Plus I don’t remember Jesse, Jones or Young asking to leave and not working hard (some of the players mentioned) whether you agree with it or not that has been Neville’s main criticism of Pogba.
Plus I don’t remember Jesse, Jones or Young asking to leave and not working hard (some of the players mentioned) whether you agree with it or not that has been Neville’s main criticism of Pogba.
That's fine. Agree to disagree
I'm using the term to its definition and the way it is used to described society.
As I said if you really said that because pogba is a footballer there can't be systemic racism then you don't understand it.
Yeah no doubt. Unfairly putting an onus on what Neville has to say is however not based on any factual evidence and create the opposite effect in some cases with pundits being ingenious with their thoughts on purely football related basis with the concern of being accused of racism.
Obviously racism still exists and has to be dealt with, but Gary isn't the problem there.
There are exceptions of course but I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt only after there is factual evidence of even slightest insinuation of racism. Papers are another matter as they will do (and do it smart) anything to sell more copies and generate more clicks.
OK so this is the point. You don't understand the phrase so the answer to your question is no.
Can a English person be racist to you?
Yes
Is that systemic racism?
No.[/QUOTE]
How not? why can't i think that subcounsciesly you are biased against portuguese since you are criticizing my way of life that you dont know about without any to prove that.
And why is it applied to Neville that subcounsciesly he is biased against a french or black (whatever you prefer)
Is it just because on the first example you are the one being targeted has a racist and you just cant assume you are.
Can a English person be racist to you?
Yes
Is that systemic racism?
No.[/QUOTE]
How not? why can't i think that subcounsciesly you are biased against portuguese since you are criticizing my way of life that you dont know about without any to prove that.
And why is it applied to Neville that subcounsciesly he is biased against a french or black (whatever you prefer)
Is it just because on the first example you are the one being targeted has a racist and you just cant assume you are.
Not disagreeing with your standpoint and views here - I would just like to point out to everybody here that white David Beckham received what must be counted among the worst verbal/intimidatory abuse ever in the history of professional football. After being sent off at the World Cup.
Huge headlines on the tabloid condemning him and mocking him, his effigy being hung in public places, people weekly threatening to 'get him' and his wife/baby, people shouting at matches that they hoped his child Brooklyn would die, etc etc.
It's absolutely disgraceful that the keyboard racist cowards of twitter targeted Paul P and other black players and sadly these are not the only examples. I think you'll find many of these have actually little to do with supporting Manchester United. However, Paul Pogba has been involved in a long running saga about his commitment and his toxic agent. Criticism of him from United fans has been linked to this.
Many United fans who don't like him - I do and I wish Jose had handled him very differently - are reacting to him in the way they would about other players doing this. As for his religion - there are plenty of non Muslims who respect Paul's faith and are happy they don't have to worry about him engaging in alcohol-related controversies unlike other players.
As for Gary Nev - he is a fan who played for Manchester United and was a key part of its most successful period. He and his brother would have considered holding United to ransom through poisonous agents and de-stabilising comments as much as they would have considered cutting off their legs. Yes he goes overboard and he went overboard criticising Paul for that penalty miss. He shouldn't have but I saw Gary venting for the reasons mentioned above.
Racism is very much alive as it will be on here with fans who harbour negative views about Black players based on their skin colour. Thats a fact but whether that's Gary's motivation to have such thoughts about Pogs, only he will know.
Man, I never imagined that missing a penalty would cause this much blowback. And has lead to some people questioning Gary Neville's status within the club. 'Was not a great player'. So, should only 'great' ex-players be allowed to criticise players? And Gary is a fan. I don't agree with some of the words he used ('treachery'- come on Gary) but in the heat of the moment, when we had the chance to go top of the table for the first time in forever and when your star player misses a penalty, emotions took over and he spoke as a fan. And it's not like Pogba and his entourage have been faultless during his tenure with us either. Neville should certainly be measured in his criticism, but to suggest that he contributed to racists spouting racist views is ridiculous.
All of this has detracted from the fact that Pogba actually had a good performance yesterday, certainly better than the chelsea game. Utimately, the game was drawn not only because he missed a penalty/we didn't create a number of clear cut chances, but the failure of our fecking board to buy attackers and midfielders during the summer. I dread the starting of the Europa league/ cup competitions, and you can see that Rashford was already exhausted at around the 70th minute yesterday. If we are only going to rely on him and Martial and the backup is an 18 year old Greenwood( very big fan - advocate of starting him and believe he can handle the pressure), all it would take is an injury or two to derail the team completely. I can honestly never remember a United team being this light in attacking options. We may have had shite options, but there were options.
And finally, it was nice to see that Ole and Rashford did not give any further ammunition to the media when they were interviewed yesterday. It was also nice to see all the players supporting Pogba and speaking out against racism. I am baffled by the way British media acts sometimes. They were definitely criticising Raheem with racist undertones, yet most articles on a player like Rashford have been in a positive light. Is it because Raheem is a more high profile player than him? His every action was getting scrutinised left and right.
All of this has detracted from the fact that Pogba actually had a good performance yesterday, certainly better than the chelsea game. Utimately, the game was drawn not only because he missed a penalty/we didn't create a number of clear cut chances, but the failure of our fecking board to buy attackers and midfielders during the summer. I dread the starting of the Europa league/ cup competitions, and you can see that Rashford was already exhausted at around the 70th minute yesterday. If we are only going to rely on him and Martial and the backup is an 18 year old Greenwood( very big fan - advocate of starting him and believe he can handle the pressure), all it would take is an injury or two to derail the team completely. I can honestly never remember a United team being this light in attacking options. We may have had shite options, but there were options.
And finally, it was nice to see that Ole and Rashford did not give any further ammunition to the media when they were interviewed yesterday. It was also nice to see all the players supporting Pogba and speaking out against racism. I am baffled by the way British media acts sometimes. They were definitely criticising Raheem with racist undertones, yet most articles on a player like Rashford have been in a positive light. Is it because Raheem is a more high profile player than him? His every action was getting scrutinised left and right.
See again
subconscious bias is a symptom of systemic racism. Not systemic racism itself.
That's what mean mate. We can't really have a conversation on this till you actually know what it is.
I guess that's the issue, people only believe it exists when bananas are being thrown or monkey chants are being heard. Im not saying Gary is racist but he appears to have an agenda against Pogba and (again) only Gary will know if that's fuelled by racist views. How can anyone suggest otherwise.....?
Why are you conflating treatment of a sterling by media in general with Neville’s criticism of Pogba?
They 2 issues have nothing in common in terms of context.
Again circumstantial opinion being stated as fact.
I’m not - quite the opposite in fact.
I’m still waiting for an answer to the question I asked you.
Apologies. I just re-read and misread!
I get you, and Gary has played with many players who were black and are some of the most loved by the fanbase. Cole, Yorke, Evra, Saha to name a few. And I have never come across any quotes or phrases uttered by him against them/colored players in general, that was racist in nature. Now, us fans don't know him personally and he may be a closet racist for all we know, but so far, he hasn't expressed anything racist that I have come across, so I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. I saw the tirade yesterday as more of his frustration with the state of his club and his issues with Pogba, who he feels rightly or wrongly, has been a destabilising influence in the club.
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Raheem is of Jamaican origin and therefore will always be seen differently to British Born Black players by the media. Id argue if Pogs was Black British, he might be seen differently too. It's not too dissimilar to Frank Burno and Lewis, both Heavyweight champions but relationship with the media was very different who never truly forgot that Lennox wasn't actually British.....only when he was winning
I’m really looking forward to you making this exact assertion in the pogba performance thread next time very soon he is crap and recieves criticism from posters and media alike.
Only all of them will know if their criticism of pogba is fuelled by racism. Did I get it right?
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we actually know Neville very well, given we followed him as a player for so many years and have access to 100s of hours of VDO footage of his views on a variety of subjects, and also countless other people giving their opinions on him.
In all that time and based upon all that evidence, I’m more than certain Gary Neville has zero racist tendencies.
Despite all the available data, all his accusers in this thread are able to do is offer circumstanctial opinion as fact, slandering him in the process.
That’s pretty much the summation of this trainwreck.
Have you heard of any coaches sexually abusing boys? It's an extreme and whilst I'm not comparing them, things exist in football that aren't always apparent to those outside of it. Like I said, it's a shame that people only seem to believe things happen when there's a disclosure and even then they still question it. Not saying he's a racist, just he clearly has an issue with Pogs and it could be informed by issues of colour or culture. I think people also seen what happen to those pundits that thought they could speak freely when the cameras weren't on them, only to forget the sound still was.
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What people don’t get is that it’s not the criticism of Pogba but the TONE of the criticism which turns it from criticism about a player over football into a personal attack on him as a person. I don’t see this with any other player, except for Sterling up until recently.
Wayne Rooney as a person = drunk, drink driver, visited a hooker, smoked etc so many things to criticise as unprofessional at the very least.
As a player. Since 2012 was average to absolute crap for Man Utd.
Did he at any time get criticised for his personal life or rubbish form by pundits? No, his personal life was never bought up and if they did ever criticise his form, which they didn’t, they didn’t turn it into a personal attack.
Wayne Rooney as a person = drunk, drink driver, visited a hooker, smoked etc so many things to criticise as unprofessional at the very least.
As a player. Since 2012 was average to absolute crap for Man Utd.
Did he at any time get criticised for his personal life or rubbish form by pundits? No, his personal life was never bought up and if they did ever criticise his form, which they didn’t, they didn’t turn it into a personal attack.
Make whatever assertion they like, its factual players are discriminated against cause of their colour. How many and who they are, I have no interest in. What I know is it exists even on here believe it or not. Wouldn't it just be great to say no Utd player, manager or fan were ever racist towards black players.....but of course we know it's bullshit cause it exists in all aspects of society....including even potentially Gary N.
Point well made. Pogs has done himself no favours in how he's relayed his feelings to the media about wanting to leave Utd but I've read absolutely nothing negative about him or his personal life, and I'm sure if there was, the media would have been all over it. The hypocrisy in football at times, many on here were suggesting Harry should put pressure on Leicester to come here, yet have a different view when Pogs does the same to go to Real.
So avoid the actual question whilst continuing to make unfounded allegations against Gary Neville.
Well at least your consistent so I guess there is that.
What question and I guess you mean unfounded. I made no unfounded anything, just said only Gary knows.
Are you having a laugh? What a load of bollocks
Of course. I stand corrected and offer my sincere humble apology.I'm older and a better judge. Shsh!
So dumb. I don't even get the point of racism. What constitutes one's race to be better than another race anyway? We should be celebrating diversity, that's what keeps the planet interesting.
Hating on an individual for personal reasons I can still comprehend, but hating on an entire race? Wtf?
Hating on an individual for personal reasons I can still comprehend, but hating on an entire race? Wtf?
It is interesting that Pogba gets racially abused 10 days before the end of the European transfer window when Real is about to make their actual bid for him.
yes you’re probably right, and my wording may seem like I’m giving these clowns an excuse, so fair enough!
There are definite similarities between the heavy media criticism of Sterling (before it got called out and recognised) and the media criticisms of Pogba. This started way before Monday night. Surely that's obvious?
Are we talking about Messi vs Ronaldo yet?
This thread is so weird. The Neville thing is very simple, Neville uses and has used aggressive and potentially hateful rhetorics toward Pogba and hatred breeds hatred. Whether Neville is racist or not isn't something that I can comment on and I personally don't suspect that he is but his comments regularly create an environment where idiots feel comfortable enough to verbally abuse people and racist abuse will be a part of it.
Yep. Thats the point that many have been trying to make.
Could someone share a link with what Neville said?
I only find a few sentences in which he says he has the potential to be the best in the league.
The comments to Pogba were on Instagram and Twitter?
Edit: I found it
I only find a few sentences in which he says he has the potential to be the best in the league.
The comments to Pogba were on Instagram and Twitter?
Edit: I found it
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