The sad story of the ones that would prefer a heterosexual than a homosexual because they would like to have grand-kids is that you would love them less (even if you say no) as they would not fullfill your hopes and dreams and will disappoint you
LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools
- Thread starter esmufc07
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Kids knowing that some people are gay is identity related and could cause a kid to reflect on themselves (in a more informed way). Hiding even the potential of gender identity issues to them won't stop them reflecting on themselves but, if they do have confusion or thoughts to work through, then they will be better equiped to do so.
Gender identity might not be that important for most young kids to know about in a personal sense but vital for others and great for sowing the seeds of inclusivity and tolerance in all.
Why? Meat eating and vegetarianism as relates to biology/food chains, inefficeincy of food production, population growth and global warming will already be taught to many in high school science lessons at least. Not sure what is taught at primary.
I think there is a misunderstanding of how teaching occurs - nothing is taught as pushing a militant political agenda.
Brexit won't be discussed at primary and probably only in very limited circumstances at high school. Certainly not taught as a for or against factual issue.
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The human race doesn't seem to be having much trouble procreating. We're not exactly clamouring for more people.
If that was true then you’d observe homophobia in the animal kingdom, especially towards homosexual kin. The lack of which would suggest that this is a human societal phenomenon, and as cognitively complex humans who have somewhat outgrown “nature”, you should think we could discern and overcome irrational, anachronistic, societally based prejudiced thinking?
Lessons will be age appropriate. Why would you think they wouldn't be?
Fisting? Seriously?
You can't be expected to be taken seriously if you raised ludicrous strawmen arguments.
So now wanting your kids to be heterosexual is now discriminatory.
Is wanting a smart kid also discriminatory to not so bright kids?
The point is every parent wants their kids to have a path of least difficulty. We also want what is familiar to us, whether that's culture, profession orseven sporting team.
If any of that doesn't happen, most parents aren't going to suddenly not love that child.
When did respecting something mean you have to want it for yourself?
Is wanting a smart kid also discriminatory to not so bright kids?
The point is every parent wants their kids to have a path of least difficulty. We also want what is familiar to us, whether that's culture, profession orseven sporting team.
If any of that doesn't happen, most parents aren't going to suddenly not love that child.
When did respecting something mean you have to want it for yourself?
The bolded reply is wonderfully worded. Self-identify is prominent throughout life, connections beginning before pupils even enter school. At the heart of it, there are pupils that have two mothers, or two fathers, waiting to pick them up in the yard and their peers must be aware that this is acceptable and this is conventional. Transgender people should be able to collect their children without fear of discrimination or intolerance. That’s why the curriculum is dictating, quite rightly, that pupils are taught about this. They’re not being taught what to be, they’re being taught to be tolerant, understanding and aware.
As for your final paragraph, you’re correct in mentioning biology, food chains, climate change and sustainability. All of this is taught within primary schools in the UK. Brexit, too. I have had some fantastic questions about Brexit, particularly from pupils with that kind of worldliness. I’ve been able to answer them objectively, as have others.
Honestly, some of this lot in here are most guilty of underestimating children. They can deal with a lot more than many might think.
I’ll hold my hand up and say that I’ve never seen someone’s head smashed in for eating pork. I have however seen plenty of discrimination against gay people. I’ve already told you about my aunt who got written out of my nan’s will (though she did put her back in after a couple decades). Every single gay friend I have has suffered constantly from homophobic abuse. One of the lads I used to play would have the other team warning each other to keep their backs to the wall around him, that’s just one of a thousand scenes that I have seen constantly.
I could go on and on about the shite they suffer from bigots. It’s not a religious people problem it’s an everyone problem, plenty of people who follow no creed have them shit just because they were different, but religion has been very harmful to them. Ive seen with my own eyes people being told that they’ll go to hell or they’ve gone against God. It didn’t matter to those wankers that the person in question is worth a million of those cnuts and has done more for the world than they ever will, solely based on who they love they have been designated as a wrongun and an inferior being. Getting subjected to vile taunts and even physical abuse. Just a short while ago two women were beaten up for holding hands on a bus. When they stand their ground, and say this is who I am and I should be accepted, their told that they’re shoving it down everyone’s throats and fishing for attention. It was heartbreaking seeing my friends grow up in that environment. They grew up thinking they were the wrong ones.
Great post. You have away with a words.
Interesting. Is Brexit taught or discussed because kids bring it up?
Everyone should want that. However, if a parent doesn’t want their kid to be gay for the reason I described it’s not homophobic is it? It’s just looking out for your kid.
It is, unfortunately, a little homophobic.
It's not go out and beat up gays homophobic but on a slightly subconscious level it's homophobic. Especially once you start trying to justify if with arguments based on biology, nature etc.
The only justification needed is that society sucks and treats gay people badly
Sure, due to the archaic but lasting perception of homosexuality as morally wrong, unnatural and undesirable.
Yes of course. It ain’t right but that’s the world we live in.
If you lived in a country that had laws against homosexuality would you want your kid to be gay?
We're talking about the United Kingdom here.
But I'd want the country to not have laws that punish people for being who they are so my kid could live a life free of fear and harassment.
And if they could teach kids about these things so that the future was freer of ignorance I'd be all for that, too.
Of the gay people I know 60% have kids, 20% have adopted kids and 20% don't have kids.
I want that too, and thankfully the UK has it. The UK is still a long way off ridding itself of those archaic perceptions though, sadly.
Society sucks and some people also treat interracial couples badly, so as it wouldn't be the easiest path for them, I wouldn't want my son or daughter to date a non-white person.
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Okay fair point. But then I’ll ask you the same question. If you lived in a country that outlaws homosexuality, would you want your kid to be gay and have to live through that?
This is such frustrating crap to deal with. So we're saying we wouldn't love them less but you're saying we would? Complete lunacy.
I think you're confusing my initial point. I forgot who it was but someone on here was making anti religious comments and that it is inherently homophobic. There are many examples of cities and areas where homosexuals and religious people (even some who dislike the idea of homosexuality which is wrong) live in peace and harmony.
The idea is both can definitely coexist in society. Honestly I haven't personally seen cases of religious people attacking gays in real life where I live. I've heard comments of course but I've heard that for other things too (such as the N word for blacks) but these people are a minority.
In a case where their safety would be at risk (like the recent Uganda bill) then I would say I would be more sympathetic to those kind of thoughts.
I'm not like this because I live in a multicultural society but to be honest with you if I was in one of those racist eastern European countries and I knew my child lived there I would want them to be with someone local (given there wasn't anyone they have already considered). I'm well someone is gonna quote me as a bigot or racist for this twisting my words. All I'm saying is there should be nothing wrong in having a certain desirable outcome for your child.
I don't have a child yet but I'm hoping they are interested in programming the same way I am. I hope they are good at football. I would also deep down prefer they married someone that helps them retain our culture.
I was responding to you saying that you hadn’t seen gay people discriminated due to religious beliefs. I don’t think religion is inherently homophobic (though some creeds are), I just think homophobia is a disease that runs rife through humanity, along with racism, sexism, Islamaphobia antisemitism etc.
No worries at all, I completely agree. It’s unfortunately a sad world we live in at times. I’m still confident that things will continue to change for the better even over the course of my lifetime. One of the difficulties with these issues is they take time, it takes years of little progressions to make a meaningful impact.
I’m with you shamans and I don’t think you should be shamed for that attitude. For me it’s ok to have different views as long as you don’t actively wish harm or look down on others. We all have selfish desires and our children are no different, what makes someone truly tolerant is being able to understand when someone disagrees or doesn’t something different from your own comfortable norm.
What does "would you want your kid to be gay" even mean? If your kid's gay or not has nothing to do with your wishes, it just happens.
You can either unconditionally love and support it as it is or not. Your child will feel when it fails to meet your preconceptions of how it ideally "should" or "shouldn't" have turned out.
Yeah, you are absolutely right.
I'm playing devil's advocate in response to "hoping your kid doesn't turn out gay is homophobic". I suppose it would mean something like if you or your partner were pregnant and lived in Saudi Arabia, for example, and wanted your kid to be straight, it wouldn't necessarily be for homophobic reasons. It is just a hypothetical. One of those parents could be gay themselves and think that because they went through a difficult time growing up.
I'm not comfortable arguing this side of the debate to be honest, but I think it is valid to look for legitimate reasons to not quickly label someone as homophobic when doing so doesn't help further the discussion. A few posters have said this debate isn't black and white and been pulled up on it. At its root it is very black and white, in that all forms of discrimination against homosexuals are abhorrent. The reality of the world we live in, however, does leave some grey areas for discussion such as the hypothetical question I posed.
Okay, well my example was just to prove that homosexuals can live with full rights and acceptance in a society with religious people. Both can coexist fine.
It is homophobic in all conceivable scenarios relevant to this thread. I don't think anyone posting here lives in Saudi Arabia. Even then it would mean approaching the problem from the wrong side.
Nah. For one thing, you have no idea where people are posting from, and I’m sure plenty are posting from places where homophobia is still a problem. Even the UK is still homophobic today in some regards.
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I seriously have to be living a different world to a lot of the people in this thread who are expressing incredulity about homophobia/transphobia in the Western world. So many people I know or have met are homophobic/transphobic; in fact, I'd say almost everyone I know is homophobic/transphobic. I can't think of any meaningful way that my social circle or the people I know are unique. In fact, it's very diverse as I live in London.
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Absolutely. This is a very important point.
And the dangers of this aren't limited to sexuality either. Im sure others have seen the Sports Dad who just "hopes and dreams" his son will be the star athlete he never was or the Tiger Mom who wants her 7 year to practice piano every day to be Liberace.
Parents projecting their hopes and desires on their kids can be a lot more detrimental pressure than new parents think who believe they "just want the best" when in reality they want to shape their kids more than they realize.
What a nice bunch of people you are surround with
I know, right?What a nice bunch of people you are surround with
I don't think it's just me, though. I very much doubt many of the people in this thread are being honest about the existence of homophobia/transphobia in the UK and other Western countries. I can see why my extended family could be a special case because they are religious. But many of my neighbours and their kids have the same problem and they are very diverse in their racial and religious background. Same with many places I've worked at.
I struggle to wrap my head around the smartarse “wanting your kids to be heterosexual is now discriminatory, eh?” argument that has reared its head several times in this thread — you would ideally want any kid(s) that you have (or end up having) to be comfortable with themselves, in body and mind, and find love/contentment with the right people for them (unless they're aromantic and/or asexual and have little interest in doing so, which would be totally cool as well). Like, whatever happened to being their biggest ally and genuinely happy for them as they truly are on an inherent level so they don't have to put up a front and wear invisible masks, instead of secretly wishing they were a wee bit different so things could be supposedly easier on the societal front?
You would want to be neutral on the whole homosexual/heterosexual spectral divide because both are valid expressions of sexuality. So what if there's resistance? That can be overcome and leads to progressive change — what an insipid place would the world be if we started cowering at signs or resistance or sporadic societal disapproval from milquetoast dunderheads. As callous as it sounds, reading some of these comments...I really wish the posters don't have non-heterosexual kids because they would unload their value system and creepy manifesto-of-copulation (what if they choose to be child-free in a heterosexual relationship and decide to adopt, not procreate) and indoctrinated biases onto them as a form of passive-aggressive wish fulfillment in subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways instead of empowering their kids with the choice free will — and if things don't go according to the preconceived master plan, potentially damage their identity in an irreparable way from a young age because they're aberrations that don't fit the perfect mold the parents have concocted in their heads. Then we wonder why so many are closeted and never come out, or have crippling self-esteem esteem issues, or are profoundly depressed, or suffer from cognitive dissonance in an existential sense.
Then again, people are capable of change of heart/thought and self-reflection and limitless empathy if they put their mind(s) to it, and maybe they'll be less overbearing/disappointed (even in a passive way) and more actively optimistic/helpful when they're actually in the position of having a homo/trans-sexual kid.
You would want to be neutral on the whole homosexual/heterosexual spectral divide because both are valid expressions of sexuality. So what if there's resistance? That can be overcome and leads to progressive change — what an insipid place would the world be if we started cowering at signs or resistance or sporadic societal disapproval from milquetoast dunderheads. As callous as it sounds, reading some of these comments...I really wish the posters don't have non-heterosexual kids because they would unload their value system and creepy manifesto-of-copulation (what if they choose to be child-free in a heterosexual relationship and decide to adopt, not procreate) and indoctrinated biases onto them as a form of passive-aggressive wish fulfillment in subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways instead of empowering their kids with the choice free will — and if things don't go according to the preconceived master plan, potentially damage their identity in an irreparable way from a young age because they're aberrations that don't fit the perfect mold the parents have concocted in their heads. Then we wonder why so many are closeted and never come out, or have crippling self-esteem esteem issues, or are profoundly depressed, or suffer from cognitive dissonance in an existential sense.
Then again, people are capable of change of heart/thought and self-reflection and limitless empathy if they put their mind(s) to it, and maybe they'll be less overbearing/disappointed (even in a passive way) and more actively optimistic/helpful when they're actually in the position of having a homo/trans-sexual kid.
Great post @Invictus