Film Joker (2019)

[Volumiza]

Anyone think it would have been a better film/concept if it was to turn out that Phoenix’s character is just your average Joe mental patient who thinks he’s the joker and these are his delusions based on what he has read of the character?

Not me, no. I enjoyed it and had no real problem fitting it as a character development story for one of the best villains ever. More importantly, it was nice to see something like this intelligently done.

Personally to me this isn’t a joker movie and comes across more like them cashing in on the name instead of doing something that could have been really interesting. It might explain some of the ham fisted treatment Thomas Wayne got and why they decided to include I suppose a somewhat iconic moment in the Batman law with the pearls which really made no sense in the film other than a vanity moment by Phillips.

Glad you said personally to you dude, I loved the way the film was approached and would describe this film as anything but a cash in. Some real thought has gone into the film.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Heard good things about this, tempted to give it watch. Not really a dc fan tbh

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Not me, no. I enjoyed it and had no real problem fitting it as a character development story for one of the best villains ever. More importantly, it was nice to see something like this intelligently done.



Glad you said personally to you dude, I loved the way the film was approached and would describe this film as anything but a cash in. Some real thought has gone into the film.

Again personally I don’t really think it’s all that intelligently done at all, but hey everyone has opinions. Some are going to think it was brilliant others not so much.

My initial response on here is pretty much how I still feel about it in that it’s rescued by the last 15 minutes and pretty much everything before that is just meh but that 15 minutes once Phoenix comes out of his shell and gets content to get his teeth in to really pull it through to a good film for me, even if for me that isn’t the Joker.

I just really didn’t feel anything towards the film or the performance. Maybe I’m just dead inside

 

[KirkDuyt]

Thought it was a bit boring really. Well acted for sure, but, dunno.

The midget golf joke was great.

 

[Mockney]

I get that it's not a film for everyone, but I'm hearing some bizarre reviews about this film... one guy on a podcast I was listening too was basically complaining it's not a film about anything... and i'm thinking, feck me, this film (as people were saying on the other page) literally goes out of its way to tell you EXACTLY what it's about. Like its hardly ambiguous or anything.

Eh (*shrug*) I can see that argument. Just because it’s incredibly unsubtle about what it claims to be about, doesn’t mean it succeeds in actually being about that... The Room claimed to be a deep introspective drama, but it failed spectacularly at being that...

I mean, the Joker may basically shout the film’s manifesto down the camera at the end, but ... is it right? He blames society for creating him, and yet the film itself seems to put forward the argument that ...

Spoiler

his mother

..is actually at fault for most of his issues.... In fact, of all the “ills” that befall him throughout the movie, only the mugging at the very beginning really counts as a genuine example of the “society beats down the innocent” message the film seems to be trying to make.

Even the vague societal themes of “anti-capitalist protest” and “viral shaming” it tangentially brings up (but doesn’t really care about) are modern issues that need some suspended disbelief to work in this late 70s/early 80s setting... so why even set it in this period? What point is that making? Is there a point? Or is it just ‘cos Scorsese did it, and it looks cool?

And then you’ve got the Director’s complete lack of engagement on the themes or issues he’s using as props for his GOAT art film.. and it’s fair to question whether remaking Taxi Driver, but replacing the unsettling undercurrent of “this guy could be your Taxi Driver” with “this guy is so
obviously mad and weird he can’t go 30 seconds without outwardly ticking, and before he does the big evil thing he makes a whole speech about it” is something authentic enough to be considered meaningful?

Consider, for example, how active and involved someone like Chris Morris has been about his new film. A guy who rarely ever interacts with the media, whose film hasn’t even come out yet, and is (on the surface) an irreverent comedy. Yet whom has spent an inordinate amount of time explaining what he means to say with it, socially and politically, to whomever will listen, and the in-depth, multi year research he’s done on the subject, just to make sure he can make better rounded and more authentic jokes - in a movie hardly anyone will even see!

And then compare it to this... by the guy who made the Hangover trilogy.. whose only desire to make it came from realising how cool it’d be to make something like Taxi Driver “but with the Joker, you know!!?” - that is already being heralded as great cinema, when all it really has to say is...“When things are kinda bad in a place, and people are mean, it might sorta make some other people angry, I guess?... but only if they’re already mad, and the product of abuse...so not really ‘cos of society that much, I guess. But still.. Scorsese, yeah? And the 70s!!”

And for the nth time, I do actually like this film....albeit mostly on aesthetic merit. But the consistent over-praise of it is increasingly (and ironically) intensely activating the “angry Departed rant” part of my dickish film wanker brain!

So come at me bro! The rat symbolises obviousness!!

 

[Frasbul]

Best part about the movie was that there was actually a giant rat in the background in the Bruce & parents in the alley scene. I sort of hoped for a giant super cat to be there too.

I liked the movie. Not wasn't perfect, but I was entertained.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Eh (*shrug*)

When I was 17 I dated a girl who texted like this and I’ve never seen anyone write like that since....

You did put a lot of thought into your post though

 

[Mockney]

I’m already annoyed that I’ve written so much rambling shite about a film I ostensibly quite like...

Can someone please ban me from this thread? So the people who want to pretend this is the very best of the only 10 or so films that are released every year, don’t have to deal with me being annoyed at them when drunk? It’s probably best for everyone...

 

[Jim Beam]

But the consistent over-praise of it is increasingly (and ironically) intensely activating the “angry Departed rant” part of my dickish film wanker brain!

So come at me bro! The rat symbolises obviousness!!

Thought I was the only one who was almost pissed after the Departed watch and all the praise it got.
That rat walking over the outside balcony, made me wanting to jump over it.

Can someone please ban me from this thread? So the people who want to pretend this is the very best of the only 10 or so films that are released every year, don’t have to deal with me being annoyed at them when drunk? It’s probably best for everyone...

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Going to see it again for a 3rd time monday. Can't wait

 

[KirkDuyt]

Shit taxi driver/10

 

[Ish]

I’m already annoyed that I’ve written so much rambling shite about a film I ostensibly quite like...

Can someone please ban me from this thread? So the people who want to pretend this is the very best of the only 10 or so films that are released every year, don’t have to deal with me being annoyed at them when drunk? It’s probably best for everyone...

 

[MadMike]

..is actually at fault for most of his issues.... In fact, of all the “ills” that befall him throughout the movie, only the mugging at the very beginning really counts as a genuine example of the “society beats down the innocent” message the film seems to be trying to make.

I disagree. I don't know if you're doing Todd Phillips a great disservice or if I'm reading too much into his film-making but here goes...

Spoiler

Firstly, and this is me being slightly pedantic, but the most harmful example of “society beats down the innocent” in the film is clearly not him beaten up by some teenage thugs. Or even the more glaring example of him being beaten up by the finance bros. Which is significantly worse than the teenage thugs incident, because those weren't some kids that didn't know better. They were supposed to be some upper echelon, highly educated individuals that decide to firstly harass a woman and then gang up on a dude that is in such miserable state of life that he goes around town in a literal sad clown outfit. But it's the City cutting back on public health expenditure and denying him the pills he desperately needs to stay in touch with reality. That is not even beating him down, that's outright dooming him.

And yet, in spite of this the film takes a twist and refrains from enforcing that narrative. As you explained, the source of his problems lies not only in society but with his mother. Not with Thomas Wayne, even though he is portrayed as a massive phallus himself. Not with Murray. That couldn't have been just a careless choice of casting her as a prime villain of this tale. And so I felt that the point also being made is this: That society has indeed become uncaring and perhaps toxic, but it has also become quite fashionable to blame ones ills at this anonymous mass of humans we call society. Cause that perhaps is easier than confronting and dealing with the truths closer to home.

However the way Fleck is portrayed, he's beset by such an improbably toxic cocktail of physical, mental, financial and family problems that really he just needed a lit match to explode. And those were provided aplenty. He's in no real state to fix his issues and escape his predicament. And so the other thing that film is showing is that sometimes life is just... fecked. Sometimes, things go belly up because really in this roulette called life these extreme unfortunate outcomes are possible. And that's just the way it is.

So finally, what I see is the that film doesn't actually try and make any particular point. But it dangles all these 3 in front of you and lets you decide what you feel is the root cause of Fleck's descent. Is it society, is it his family, or is it simply the randomness and chaos of human existence that landed him on that situation. And Todd Phillips, like a 2nd Referendum Jeremy Corbyn, doesn't take a stance and stays impartial, letting the viewer draw their own conclusions.

 

[Mockney]

Yeah, you’re reading too much into it. This guy made The Hangover trilogy, not the Three Colours trilogy.... it’s “baby’s first Taxi Driver” - Jay Bauman TM

But hey, people should be allowed to enjoy things... I suppose.

 

[Cascarino]

Oh Nolans Batman films are more impressive as a cinematic achievement because he finally solved the puzzle of how do get people to take seriously the man in the bat costume(Plus Nolan is just technically a better film maker)but as a great philosopher once said - That don't impress me much. Out of sheer luck(As you said Phillips completely uninterested in the themes)the Joker movie is far interesting for me anyway.


Part of the love in for this movie comes from the same place as Leonardo DiCaprio is the greatest actor ever or Robert Pattson can't play batman. Scorsese is right , there's a ton of people who only consume nerd culture so it's superhero movies all the way down. So when one pops up that is somewhat like a actual movie(Even though its basically Taxi Driver)they go nuts and the film becomes a true masterpiece but the same was for the DK(If the DK is someone favourite film it just means they have yet to Heat)and really any type of media in fairness. Because we live in a hell world.

Yeah wouldn't disagree with you here.

You’re probably not wrong but you still come across as a dick

 

[The Firestarter]

Just wasn’t for me. For most of the movie it’s just physical acting. He doesn’t do anything. Long scenes of him just staring blankly off in to space or watching tv. Nothing about that to me is exceptionally impressive.

I think in part because for most of the movie there isn’t really anything for him to sink his teeth in to. It’s just going along with him pulling poses to show off how he has starved himself or smoked 50 a day to get his body to look that way. The only good stuff to me sort of came in the last 20 minutes but everything before that was just run of the mill. I mean even that last 20 minutes it’s not like he really does all that much or anything at all and really there were only 2 scenes where I’d say were above average.

Compare this to Heath Ledger and it’s not even a competition. Ledger blows him out of the water and I’d go as far to say that Cameron Monaghan does better as well, however it’s a very different tone of movie to what they were and in all honesty I probably wouldn’t even take this as a movie about The Joker. Actually it probably would have worked better if it wasn’t, but then would it have received as much coverage as it has if it was just some random guy.

Did like that dancing on the staircase scene though.

However if you want to make an 18 certificate Joker movie then do the killing joke and be done with it.

"Just physical acting" has to be the understatement of the year.

 

[The Firestarter]

Look, I don’t was to sound insulting or snobbish but this is the laziest comment to make about this film. This is a character study of a single character that, if it was in a theatre, would essentially be a one-man show. This is, by its very nature, Joaquin Phoenix's film.

It’s like saying Cast Away would be shit without Tom Hanks, no shit.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah, you’re reading too much into it. This guy made The Hangover trilogy, not the Three Colours trilogy.... it’s “baby’s first Taxi Driver” - Jay Bauman TM

But hey, people should be allowed to enjoy things.

Yeah he made the the hangover so now everything he makes should he coloured with that brush.

I understand that it is heavily influenced by tax driver and it definitely loses points for that. But I definitely enjoyed it more than Tax Driver. It generated a stronger emotional connect and payoff from my perspective as a viewer, as compared to Taxi Driver which I felt was a good film but lacked precisely on this front - Scorcesee needed to do more than just write an interesting but often flaccid tale. Maybe part of that had to do with De Niro. Obviously it's a role that demanded more sutbtely than Phoenix's but it was also too bland IMO.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Maybe I'm unduly harsh on Taxi driver. I do plan on rewatching it.

 

[Jim Beam]

Maybe I'm unduly harsh on Taxi driver. I do plan on rewatching it.

I have same feelings about it. It was just a bit dull and left me without any emotions. I just didn't care about the character too much, if at all.

My friend said to me you have to watch it few times and then you start to appreciate it more or notice some details you haven't before. Am pretty doubtful it will change my view, but yeah, planning on giving it another try.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I have same feelings about it. It was just a bit dull and left me without any emotions. I just didn't care about the charachter too much, if at all.

My friend said to me you have to watch it few times and then you start to appriciate it more or notice some details you haven't before. Am pretty doubtful it will change my view, but yeah, planning on giving it another try.

Yeah. And do love films from that era. I love Pacino's work, for example from that period. But Taxi Driver just felt like a story that needed to be told but possibly in a slightly more interesting manner.

 

[Sweet Square]

You’re probably not wrong but you still come across as a dick

Thanks I guess.

But hey, people should be allowed to enjoy things... I suppose.

Should they ? It seems to be all people do these days.

 

[always_hoping]

As psychological thrillers goes that was good watch and well made film. A great piece of acting by Joaquin Phoenix certainly Oscar worthy. I see on youtube a number of scenes were deleted/didn't make the final cut. I think a few of them should have been kept in.

Will be a big desire i can imagine for 2nd Joker movie but at the moment the director isn't too keen on a sequel.

 

[Andy_Cole]

As psychological thrillers goes that was good watch and well made film. A great piece of acting by Joaquin Phoenix certainly Oscar worthy. I see on youtube a number of scenes were deleted/didn't make the final cut. I think a few of them should have been kept in.

Will be a big desire i can imagine for 2nd Joker movie but at the moment the director isn't too keen on a sequel.

How has this done on the box office?

Money talks to make a sequel.

 

[Redlambs]

I liked it.

I didn't feel the need to try to make it deeper than it actually is though and as it's not particularily any kind of clever social commentary, I guess that's why I was able to just enjoy it for what it is.

If I have any criticism, it didn't really need to be so long and could have done without any more bruce or even seeing him at all. Just having TW walk out of the theatre with his wife and kid around the corner would have been more than enough. It kind of sums up the on the nose nature of every aspect in the film imo.

 

[Shark]

One of the best movies I’ve seen in a long while, but then I’m always into psychological movies. Think some are going into it expecting some superhero aspects.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Absolutely amazing movie, brilliant acting by Joaquin Phoenix.

 

[b82REZ]

Just got back from seeing it. Easily film of the year for me.

 

[Relevated]

Yeah. And do love films from that era. I love Pacino's work, for example from that period. But Taxi Driver just felt like a story that needed to be told but possibly in a slightly more interesting manner.

Yep, it did have its highs and lows and the character was generally interesting but the ending was absolutely ridiculous if I'm being honest.

 

[Buchan]

A very good film with a stupendous performance from its lead. Phoenix was truly excellent. Forgive me if I’m overlooking some Batman/Gotham lore here, but the one aspect of the film I disliked was the massive disparity in ages between Fleck/Joker and Bruce Wayne/Batman. By the time Wayne matures enough to be a convincing ‘Batman’, Joker must be, what, 65 years old?! It’s rather implausible and demerits the film in my eyes, but everything else was really impressive.

 

[always_hoping]

A very good film with a stupendous performance from its lead. Phoenix was truly excellent. Forgive me if I’m overlooking some Batman/Gotham lore here, but the one aspect of the film I disliked was the massive disparity in ages between Fleck/Joker and Bruce Wayne/Batman. By the time Wayne matures enough to be a convincing ‘Batman’, Joker must be, what, 65 years old?! It’s rather implausible and demerits the film in my eyes, but everything else was really impressive.

Jack Nickolson must have been in his mid 50s when he played the Joker and perhaps Heath Ledger was too young to play that role?

Spoiler

I think most of the film is played in Fleck's head and he is not the joker to be.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

A very good film with a stupendous performance from its lead. Phoenix was truly excellent. Forgive me if I’m overlooking some Batman/Gotham lore here, but the one aspect of the film I disliked was the massive disparity in ages between Fleck/Joker and Bruce Wayne/Batman. By the time Wayne matures enough to be a convincing ‘Batman’, Joker must be, what, 65 years old?! It’s rather implausible and demerits the film in my eyes, but everything else was really impressive.

The age gap is interesting. If the film is a standalone story, in timeline where Batman never exists (and he really doesn't need to exist in this timeline), then I guess it will be irrelevant.

The ages of Batman and his foes have fluctuated on screen and in print. There's been plenty where Batman is much older than the bad guys. I guess there's not been one where Joker is the old man. It will be interesting to see if they go down that route, or if they just leave this where it ended.

I kind of hope they just leave it. Then it's up to the viewer to decide whether or not the majority of this film even happened, or if it was all in Arthur's head.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

One of the best films I’ve ever seen. The final quarter was an incredible experience and a weird mix of being sort of satisfying and sickening all at once.

Joaquin Phoenix was incredibly good. Should walk his way to an Oscar because it’s one of the best performances I’ve seen in years.

 

[Mockney]

One of the best films I’ve ever seen..

I hate you.

 

[Moby]

But I definitely enjoyed it more than Tax Driver.

You can't really get that accountant out of your subconscious even while discussing a movie.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I hate you.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You can't really get that accountant out of your subconscious even while discussing a movie.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

You wrote "tax" driver twice in your previous post

I hate you.

Someone thread ban this man! His temple vein is beating like crazy!

Beyond Joker, what this thread has highlighted for me is that a lot of people dont watch enough films.

 

[Massive Spanner]

You wrote "tax" driver twice in your previous post

Someone thread ban this man! His temple vein is beating like crazy!

Beyond Joker, what this thread has highlighted for me is that a lot of people dont watch enough films.

Probably more so that they watch too many shit ones. Streaming platforms like Netflix have made it really easy to watch loads of average/crappy films so people just don't make the effort to find the gems anymore.

 

[Eboue]

You wrote "tax" driver twice in your previous post

Someone thread ban this man! His temple vein is beating like crazy!

Beyond Joker, what this thread has highlighted for me is that a lot of people dont watch enough films.

we can't all be effete french twats like you or galivant around europe like grinner. some of us work for a living and after a hard day of forming calloused on our hands we just want to sit around and watch reruns of hunt for red october and shawshank redemption on tbs (very funny) while our wives remind us about the pta meeting next week. not me personally but some of us