How to get better at breaking down deep sides

[Crashoutcassius]

I think we are all on one side or another of an ole in or ole out debate. Let's say ole stays for 18 more months. Clearly we have a very good approach against a certain class of teams, so what can ole do to break down teams that sit back and dare us to get at then ? Could we hire a new coach to help, does the answer lie in players and if so what kind ? Eriksen style creativity or a poacher to actually get on the end of that ?

 

[caid]

Creativity from midfield is probably the main thing. Fred and McTominay are beginning to look decent at breaking things up and giving some control in midfield but neither create that many chances. Making better use of set pieces is probably another thing.

 

[AltiUn]

I'd wait and see how well we do with Pogba back in the team against the smaller sides, we haven't been short of goals or chances lately. Someone with his creativity, in theory, should give us a whole new dimension. Recently against Sheffield United and Aston Villa our biggest issue didn't come from scoring but rather conceding, an issue born in the midfield. That should be rectified with McTominay back now, he and Fred have won their last 5/6 games together, adding Pogba to that should help us go from strength to strength.

 

[waza7111]

This thread is similar to another one which has some good suggestions-

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/how-to-beat-park-the-bus.451897/

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I'd wait and see how well we do with Pogba back in the team against the smaller sides, we haven't been short of goals or chances lately. Someone with his creativity, in theory, should give us a whole new dimension. Recently against Sheffield United and Aston Villa our biggest issue didn't come from scoring but rather conceding, an issue born in the midfield. That should be rectified with McTominay back now, he and Fred have won their last 5/6 games together, adding Pogba to that should help us go from strength to strength.

Good point... We have left behind our scoring woes to some extent but seem to struggle with control when we go ahead. Feels like this has been going on years and years tbh

 

[gza the genius]

Short answer is Pogba.

We just don't have enough creativity behind our front 3, it's as simple as that really.

 

[cyberman]

This is a myth. We struggle against sides who attack and keep the ball in the final third. I keep seeing the narrative that we destroyed Spurs because we could sit back but we clearly didnt even do that. We pressed high and won the ball further up.
Nobody sits back against us anymore. Its why we score more but concede a lot more as well

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Get a better coach /Thread.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Get a better coach /Thread.

Hoping to avoid boring answers and have a discussion

 

[Bilbo]

We lack two significant things IMO

• A midfielder that regularly goes beyond where the ball is in the final third. Pogba could possibly be that guy but I see him more as the assister rather than the end product - however he is certainly capable of being this player for us if that's how we decide to use him
• A poacher. Martial has many qualities, but a poacher he is not. Van Nistelrooy used to win us a ton of matches simply by being a massive nuisance and being in the right place most of the time

 

[James Ward]

Just because we beat Spurs at home doesn't make us World beaters. Let's face it Spurs were shocking and we have still a ton of issues to sort out.

There's a number of reasons:
Passion of the players.
Oles tactics.
Current players not good enough.

I think if he settles on a flat 4-5-1 it will make a huge difference and give our players more of a chance to break and more structure defensively.

 

[peridigm]

Midfield, midfield, midfield. Fred and Scott appear to be growing as a unit but Pogba would add the fear factor back again. It’s way to defend against us as our midfielders are not consistent enough. Go back a couple of months to that time Matic was stripped of the ball in our half and we conceded. Can’t recall the opposition but that can’t happen. It will happen as a fluke, but being stripped of the ball has been a frequent thing with this squad. Even when Pogba was playing he’s lost the ball like that. Lackadaisical attitude? Perhaps.

 

[Mailo]

Tactic 1:
Fast and direct wingplay, getting behind their back line and crossing.

Tactic 2:
Give them false sense of security, let them have time on the ball and lure them up the park. Hit the switch and press them otherworldly to win the ball and hit them on the counter using the space behind, that you've afforded them deliberately.

Tactic 3
Requires high skills in ball-retention and press resistance and very creative players to execute whatever they want of play. This requires a lot of movement from the forwards, wingers and fullbacks and doing lots of running in behind a la peak Barcelona.

 

[AneRu]

Creativity from midfield is probably the main thing. Fred and McTominay are beginning to look decent at breaking things up and giving some control in midfield but neither create that many chances. Making better use of set pieces is probably another thing.

Better set piece routine and having someone capable of individual brilliance like we had with Giggs, Nani or Ronaldo. A dribbler will always cause confusion in the box and strikers will take advantage.

 

[Wumminator]

First one:
Get all the penalties that we are owed. Crystal Palace and Arsenal had clear penalties not given.

Second one:
Score some penalties. We’d have beat Crystal Palace and Wolves if we could convert them well.

Second one:
Stop letting teams score goals against us that shouldn’t count. We’d then have beaten Sheffield United.

Convert penalties and we’d have five more points. Get given penalties as well and we’d have around seven more points. Stop shit VAR decisions against us and we’d have nine more points.

 

[Gator Nate]

We lack two significant things IMO

• A midfielder that regularly goes beyond where the ball is in the final third. Pogba could possibly be that guy but I see him more as the assister rather than the end product - however he is certainly capable of being this player for us if that's how we decide to use him
• A poacher. Martial has many qualities, but a poacher he is not. Van Nistelrooy used to win us a ton of matches simply by being a massive nuisance and being in the right place most of the time

On point one, I'm definitely anxious to see Pogba up there, not only for assists but also for goals

On point two, I really think Greenwood can be that guy, he just needs more games. The opposition already has to account for him, which keeps extra pressure off Rashford and James. I really don't feel that Martial sucks up the defender because he won't venture into the box like he should.

Those things said, I think our forward ball movement is getting better with Fred/McT. AWB, for all his faults, does help move the ball up and Ole has him playing way up the pitch. Yesterday's reactions by the defensive line were much more timely than in previous games, too.

 

[freeurmind]

Transition phases are key. If teams are letting Maguire and Lindelof have acres of space, they need to bring the ball out of defence more and force people to come to them and then we need good movement ahead of them so they have options to pass to. Also don't leave the fullbacks isolated when they get the ball on the wing.

 

[PeteManic]

A world-class number 10, quick CBs, and players interchanging is the only way to do this.

 

[Teja]

Good RW, CM (or Pogback), #10 and we'll be set. The problem this season is our razor thin squad. I think we'll do fairly well with our current tactics with Pogba at #10 and Fred / McSauce CM partnership and James at RW if they're all fit at the same time.

 

[0le]

In my opinion you need good coaching and some of the players need to have excellent movement to create space for other players. I guess you also need someone who can play the ball into the space, as well as play the ball to feet.

I think it is also nice for someone to have the creativity from deep to see what is happening. Graham Taylor I think it was used to describe this as "peripheral vision" when talking about Paul Scholes. We don't have anyone in the team that can really dictate the tempo and play the right ball depending on the movement ahead. It isn't imperative to have this, but I think the very best teams ever always has this sort of player.

 

[BazzaBear]

It'd be nice to ever see any of our forwards attack the front post on a cross. We seem to have started putting many more decent crosses in, but there's never anyone there to put them away.

 

[WR10]

Pogba.

or just do the exact same thing City does with their 3 player triangles on the edge of the box getting to the byline. Easy if you got good coaching

 

[Wumminator]

Pogba.

or just do the exact same thing City does with their 3 player triangles on the edge of the box getting to the byline. Easy if you got good coaching

Yes. Doing what City have done with their record points haul, most expensive squad ever assembled and back to back premier league trophies is easy to do with good coaching.

 

[WR10]

Yes. Doing what City have done with their record points haul, most expensive squad ever assembled and back to back premier league trophies is easy to do with good coaching.

Meanwhile, you could consider asking your forward players to get into the 6 yard box to score goals. You know, that thing people call coaching

 

[Wumminator]

Meanwhile, you could consider asking your forward players to get into the 6 yard box to score goals. You know, that thing people call coaching

Oh is THAT what City have been doing? feck sake.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Well-drilled team moves that involve a series of automated movements from a collective number of players, trained, performed and perfected in training.

ie. Wing rotation, overlaps, underlaps, balls played inside full-backs, low passes from channels across box rather than typical aerial crosses, strikers dropping in holes/midfielders running beyond them.

All the above are things City regularly do that we do not, with any consistency.

It's not just a case of telling creative players to "be more creative", as if that's how creativity works. You need the right movement around creative players.

 

[Bilbo]

Meanwhile, you could consider asking your forward players to get into the 6 yard box to score goals. You know, that thing people call coaching

I think perhaps of all the managers we could possibly have in the world then Ole would be in the top 5 of 'managers who know that this would be a good thing to do'. There is no doubt that he is trying to implement this, some players just don't have that instinct. Its already clear to see from very few matches that Greenwood is more likely to ever be that type of player than Martial is.

People think coaches are miracle workers, when in reality even the very best usually need to buy the right type of player to fit their system.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Simple answer. Buy better midfielders.

Other than Pogba and potentially Garner I don't see anyone else good enough to play through balls consistently well.

Gomes I just feel will never make it here despite his talents. Just doesn't seem to be getting much of a look in. Should have gone out on loan.

 

[edcunited1878]

Quicker movements off the ball and with the ball. The tempo is key.
Being direct with said movements and decisive with one touch to control and second to release a pass or shoot and anticipating a rebound or going into space.
Taking gambles with runs and balls which is reciprocated by the player on the ball and players without the ball.
Being relentless and continuing to put on the pressure and hunting the ball down in packs when you lose the ball.
Composure, self-belief and belief in your teammates.

The quality isn't there across the board for moments of magic to happen. But forcing the issue will create your own luck.

 

[WR10]

Oh is THAT what City have been doing? feck sake.

Well-drilled team moves that involve a series of automated movements from a collective number of players, trained, performed and perfected in training.

ie. Wing rotation, overlaps, underlaps, balls played inside full-backs, low passes from channels across box rather than typical aerial crosses, strikers dropping in holes/midfielders running beyond them.

All the above are things City regularly do that we do not, with any consistency.

It's not just a case of telling creative players to "be more creative", as if that's how creativity works. You need the right movement around creative players.

There ya go. Someone gets it.When you have average players you must give them a script. Otherwise you treat them like superstars and you’ll have to settle for their 1 in 7 moments of quality that comes with it. City’s record breaking points from Pep combines strongly coached scripts of play with very expensive players. However at united we have so far failed to implement either

 

[VeevaVee]

Being able to pass like we did last night week in week out would go a long way.

 

[Wumminator]

There ya go. Someone gets it.When you have average players you must give them a script. Otherwise you treat them like superstars and you’ll have to settle for their 1 in 7 moments of quality that comes with it. City’s record breaking points from Pep combines strongly coached scripts of play with very expensive players. However at united we have so far failed to implement either

Someone gets it?

You have the gall to question someone else for their knowledge of football when you have just suggested that the team with the best points tally in the history of the premier league are just 'simply' made?

The idea that if you coach Fred, Perreira, Lindelof, Mata and Young we'll suddenly be as good as City's team? It's just 'simple'. No wonder some of you want Ole out so badly if you think that coaching a team to play as well as City is 'simple'. It's just telling your players to get into the box.

fecking hell. Imagine being this tone deaf on football and then acting like someone else gets it. It is very fecking hard to get players to follow a script as there are barely any moments in a football match that follow a fecking script. Obviously Ole is coaching our attacking players, hence us looking literally ten times better in attack this year than we did under Jose. I don't think for all the best coaching in the world we could get a frontline that has had Mata/Perreria/Greenwood/Fred/Lingard playing there in the last two premier league games matching the output of Augero/Sterling/Silva/Silva/Mahrez/De Bruyne and Jesus.

 

[WR10]

Someone gets it?

You have the gall to question someone else for their knowledge of football when you have just suggested that the team with the best points tally in the history of the premier league are just 'simply' made?

The idea that if you coach Fred, Perreira, Lindelof, Mata and Young we'll suddenly be as good as City's team? It's just 'simple'. No wonder some of you want Ole out so badly if you think that coaching a team to play as well as City is 'simple'. It's just telling your players to get into the box.

fecking hell. Imagine being this tone deaf on football and then acting like someone else gets it. It is very fecking hard to get players to follow a script as there are barely any moments in a football match that follow a fecking script. Obviously Ole is coaching our attacking players, hence us looking literally ten times better in attack this year than we did under Jose. I don't think for all the best coaching in the world we could get a frontline that has had Mata/Perreria/Greenwood/Fred/Lingard playing there in the last two premier league games matching the output of Augero/Sterling/Silva/Silva/Mahrez/De Bruyne and Jesus.

Why the rage though?

Tweet

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There’s room for improvement there regardless of what kind of players you have on the field. Pretty straightforward scenario that should be drilled over and over again. Part of effective coaching is having players buy in to what you’re selling them too ya know

 

[Zen86]

An all-out goal scorer up front and a creative passer in the middle. Jobs a good’un.

 

[Wumminator]

Why the rage though?

Tweet

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There’s room for improvement there regardless of what kind of players you have on the field. Pretty straightforward scenario that should be drilled over and over again. Part of effective coaching is having players buy in to what you’re selling them too ya know

I am being a bit of a dick here. I apologise. I think I misread your post.

 

[ReddBalls]

Get a better coach /Thread.

Which one of Carrick, McKenna or Phelan is it you want to let go? Or is it all of them? Who do you suggest instead?,

 

[Hoof the ball]

Which one of Carrick, McKenna or Phelan is it you want to let go? Or is it all of them? Who do you suggest instead?,

Every time I look at Carrick and McKenna on the sidelines, they're mute. I don't think I've ever seen Carrick engage in conversation with Ole. He just sits there looking like he's contemplating nihilism. I'm sure they've got their qualities, but still......

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Is our inability to break down deep sides down to bad coaching or lack of creative I mean I'm not expecting Lingard Mcctominay Fred or Pereira to make that defense splitting pass. Neither am I expecting Martial to be pacing around the box waiting for the slightest opportunity to pounce on the ball.

The players we have don't have the abilities to beat low blocks except for Pogba who's been injured. I'll judge whether it's the coaches tactics that makes us unable to break down deep sides when we have Pogba back.

 

[Leftback99]

- Better players with creativity and dribbling ability in tight areas.
- Some numbers 9s.
- Some useful options from the bench to change things.

 

[Bobcat]

Haaland. A big strong CF who can turn away defenders can do wonders in tightly packed boxes