UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[ZupZup]

So many people are on commission based jobs or have the option to do overtime or are self employed.

I know plenty of sales people who complain about paying tax when they earn a lot of commission and often see them juggle sales between months to lower the tax they pay... but I haven’t personally known any yet who just stop selling because they refuse to pay tax at a higher rate. If you do, I’d say they are the exception rather than the rule.

If someone doesn’t want to do overtime For tax reasons, someone else will do the work and get taxed on it.

Most people who are self employed won’t be paying the top tax rate because their accountant will have arranged their finances accordingly.

 

[SteveJ]

So you were fine when we sold Jaap Stam?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

That's a bit disingenuous isn't it? That was about then being handed bills to pay on previous earnings after pension rules were changed, not losing money on new earnings



https://www.theguardian.com/society...tential-threat-as-senior-doctors-work-to-rule

no. I’m not even referring to the historic bills - the here and now. current rules disincentivize doctors from working over certain thresholds. I would assume we want doctors to work don’t we?

here is an explanation of the 60% marginal tax rate - obviously I’ve not been clear enough. The FT explain it.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/622ff86c-d16e-11e5-92a1-c5e23ef99c77

Edit. Did you even read the article you posted. A direct quote perfectly illustrates my point:

“To quote two examples we’ve heard just this week, a senior anaesthetist who worked 27 Saturdays last year to reduce waiting lists has now said he cannot afford to work any extra Saturday shifts this year because it would give him a large tax bill he cannot afford to pay.”

i.e disincentivized to work due to tax.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

I've loved reading your optimistic posts, good for you! I really hope you know something secret ...

The secret is that numbers on the ground don’t correlate with numbers of the polls because the pollsters are lazy, they go to their base get a load of answers and weight them to their hearts content. There’s two things in this election that the pollsters have missed, huge engagement of young people and the vast numbers of people undecided. The undecideds are facing a moral issue, vote for Brexit and get Tories destroying the country for a further 5 years or give Labour a shot and have another crack at Brexit. A lot are warming to the latter because of the campaign Labour is running on the ground. That one on one connection with people has been the difference that has pulled it back against all the media offensive against Labour. That together with young voter turnouts is what will at the very least deny Tories a majority tomorrow. It’s not all over, there’s one more day to go and it’s going to be a big day so really I should get some sleep but I’m too fecking ecstatic.

To think that after the last debate I was so fecking resigned to a Tory majority because ai believed all the media bubble. That one day of canvassing changed the whole perspective of this election and I could see everyone was absolutely passionate and optimistic from everything they were hearing in the doorstep. I hope that at the very least the campaigners around my area will be able to turn the 2 MK seats red but the cherry on the cake will be unseating Steve Baker from Wycombe. They’re all within reach and a hard push is required tomorrow.

I feel like this is a Kevin Keegan moment but I would fecking love to be in the room when BoJo gets the results

 

[Fiskey]

Like how all the Norwegians, Danish, Icelandic and Swiss can’t wait to leave their countries with their high tax rates and beautiful public services?

Swiss? Tax rates of 8%! (In some cantons). Norwegians have a society we can only dream of, and the Danish have more Billionaires per capita than the USA.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Ultimate Grib]

Ok, I’m debating on social media with a friend of my aunt.

The guy will not read what I actually write and instead throws a completely irrelevant point back at me.

I merely mentioned that 88% of conservative adverts on social media contained falsehoods compared to 0% of Labours, which is a fact according to the investigation.

He said, do you believe pigs can fly, do you actually believe corbyn doesn’t lie?

Ummm, what?

This is the type of voter that has bought into all the bullshit and will never change his mind. The only thing to do is to lock him in a cupboard tomorrow 7AM-10PM as that’s the only way he isn’t going to vote Conservative.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

If additional tax on the highest earners is a reasonable breaking point for them, then what's the breaking point for the poorest or most vulnerable? Food banks? Fuel poverty? Homelessness? Long term debt? Mental illness? Suicide? I mean, at what point do we quit with the platitudes of "that is very sad, BUT..." and decide to stop Mollycoddling the most privileged in our society for at least one day out of the last ten years.

And before anyone says "you have to be realistic because they'll leave" can I just say one thing? There are people literally dying because their lives are so fecking worthless in this country right now. Death through environmental, medical and self inflicted reasons. Enough of the "be reasonable". You be reasonable and take a look out of the fecking window for once.

 

[Pexbo]

Swiss? Tax rates of 8%! (In some cantons). Norwegians have a society we can only dream of, and the Danish have more Billionaires per capita than the USA.

Was thinking of Germany rather than Switzerland

 

[Berbaclass]

If Labour fail tomorrow what becomes of Corbyn? Will he stay on as leader or will he be ousted for somebody new?

 

[SteveJ]

If additional tax on the highest earners is a reasonable breaking point for them, then what's the breaking point for the poorest or most vulnerable? Food banks? Fuel poverty? Homelessness? Long term debt? Mental illness? Suicide? I mean, at what point do we quit with the platitudes of "that is very sad, BUT..." and decide to stop Mollycoddling the most privileged in our society for at least one day out of the last ten years.

And before anyone says "you have to be realistic because they'll leave" can I just say one thing? There are people literally dying because their lives are so fecking worthless in this country right now. Death through environmental, medical and self inflicted reasons. Enough of the "be reasonable". You be reasonable and take a look out of the fecking window for once.

I love you, Pidgey.

 

[sebsheep]

It depends on the rate. If it's too high the result will be a reduction in tax revenue.

Also, increasing the rate has little effect on the accumulated wealth you mention.

In what sense would you get a lower tax revenue?

The idea that it has little effect on their wealth accumulation makes it less risky to tax them a bit more.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I know plenty of sales people who complain about paying tax when they earn a lot of commission and often see them juggle sales between months to lower the tax they pay... but I haven’t personally known any yet who just stop selling because they refuse to pay tax at a higher rate. If you do, I’d say they are the exception rather than the rule.

If someone doesn’t want to do overtime For tax reasons, someone else will do the work and get taxed on it.

Most people who are self employed won’t be paying the top tax rate because their accountant will have arranged their finances accordingly.

This doesn’t make sense. I’d love to know how someone who is self employed earning £100k would be paying tax at the lower rate - just by their accountant “arranging their finances”. That’s some serious offsetting!

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

If Labour fail tomorrow what becomes of Corbyn? Will he stay on as leader or will he be ousted for somebody new?

if it is Tory majority, then he has to go
if it is a Tory coalition, then he has to go
Hung parliament, he will stay on

 

[Ubik]

I’ve seen anywhere between 6 and 15 points.

Seems that the ones published so far today are nearly all within the 8-12 point lead mark, with ComRes being an outlier at 5. The outlier was right in 2017, so let's see.

 

[Fiskey]

Was thinking of Germany rather than Switzerland

It's really difficult to compare taxation like for like, but the tax burden I'm Germany is currently not too different from the UK.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

no. I’m not even referring to the historic bills - the here and now. current rules disincentivize doctors from working over certain thresholds. I would assume we want doctors to work don’t we?

here is an explanation of the 60% marginal tax rate - obviously I’ve not been clear enough. The FT explain it.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/622ff86c-d16e-11e5-92a1-c5e23ef99c77

Edit. Did you even read the article you posted. A direct quote perfectly illustrates my point:

“To quote two examples we’ve heard just this week, a senior anaesthetist who worked 27 Saturdays last year to reduce waiting lists has now said he cannot afford to work any extra Saturday shifts this year because it would give him a large tax bill he cannot afford to pay.”

i.e disincentivized to work due to tax.

Take the condescension and try it somewhere else mate.

And, yeah, I did read the article, including the bit you thoughtfully failed to copy;

Hopson said: “Staff are voting with their feet. Trust leaders report that over the last month they have had significant numbers of key clinical and managerial staff saying they can no longer afford to work extra shifts and weekends because of the financial penalties involved in doing so, due to the way that the pension taxation rules currently work.

Pension taxation is different to income taxation - and using it as an example of how increasing income tax rates will stop people working is erroneous - obviously I've not been clear enough.

 

[Pexbo]

if it is Tory majority, then he has to go
if it is a Tory coalition, then he has to go
Hung parliament, he will stay on

What sort of Tory coalition do you see possible?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I love you, Pidgey.

I'm glad someone does *sobs into Pot Noodle*

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Are you arrogant enough to think the work you turn down doesn’t get done by someone else?

not in my role. It’s not arrogance, it’s a fact, I can assure you that my client doesn’t get in a contractor to work 10-15 days if I decide not to work.

 

[horsechoker]

I'm glad someone does *sobs into Pot Noodle*

You don't want it any more salty than it already is

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

What sort of Tory coalition do you see possible?

if the Tories are just short of a majority, they could offer a referendum of Johnson's deal which could appeal to Swinson and the Lib Dems

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Take the condescension and try it somewhere else mate.

And, yeah, I did read the article, including the bit you thoughtfully failed to copy;



Pension taxation is different to income taxation - and using it as an example of how increasing income tax rates will stop people working is erroneous - obviously I've not been clear enough.

you are a tool - I even stated in my post that this was in relation to pensions in this example. I’ve not claimed it was income tax.

One would have though you could understand an example where groups of people are disincentivized to work due to taxes shows that increasing income tax can stop people working.

Did you read the FT article?

 

[sammsky1]

if it is Tory majority, then he has to go
if it is a Tory coalition, then he has to go
Hung parliament, he will stay on

Isn’t there also a scenario of hung parliament where he also leaves? ie: price of LibDem coalition is his removal from leadership?

 

[Rolandofgilead]

This is the type of voter that has bought into all the bullshit and will never change his mind. The only thing to do is to lock him in a cupboard tomorrow 7AM-10PM as that’s the only way he isn’t going to vote Conservative.

I can’t get my head around my auntie mate. Vegan, goes on anti fox hunting marches. Voting Tory.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Isn’t there also a scenario of hung parliament where he also leaves? ie: price of LibDem coalition is his removal from leadership?

tbh i not quite sure sorry

I would point out that Swinson has said she would work with Labour (but only if Corbyn isn't the leader)

 

[ZupZup]

This doesn’t make sense. I’d love to know how someone who is self employed earning £100k would be paying tax at the lower rate - just by their accountant “arranging their finances”. That’s some serious offsetting!

Well, many of them would incorporate themselves as a business for a start as the rates they pay for a combo of dividends and salary will then be lower than self employed income tax.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

It's really difficult to compare taxation like for like, but the tax burden I'm Germany is currently not too different from the UK.

According to OECD the German tax burden is virtually 5% higher. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-as-percentage-of-gdp-oecd.png.jpg

If that's true then our tax burdens would actually be more in line if Corbyn's reforms were enacted.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

tbh i not quite sure sorry

I would point out that Swinson has said she would work with Labour (but only if Corbyn isn't the leader)

In the event of a hung parliament then you can bet your house on Swinson cosying up to Boris the first half chance she gets. Especially with DUP not offering their support, Swinson will see an opportunity.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

If additional tax on the highest earners is a reasonable breaking point for them, then what's the breaking point for the poorest or most vulnerable? Food banks? Fuel poverty? Homelessness? Long term debt? Mental illness? Suicide? I mean, at what point do we quit with the platitudes of "that is very sad, BUT..." and decide to stop Mollycoddling the most privileged in our society for at least one day out of the last ten years.

And before anyone says "you have to be realistic because they'll leave" can I just say one thing? There are people literally dying because their lives are so fecking worthless in this country right now. Death through environmental, medical and self inflicted reasons. Enough of the "be reasonable". You be reasonable and take a look out of the fecking window for once.

the two things are not related.

no one is asking for sympathy.

I’m just explaining, and I understand that it’s counterintuitive that an increase in the tax rate can decrease the overall tax that HMRC receive.

of you said to me would you rather work an extra 2 weekends this month and get taxed at 60% or spend it with your family, I choose family. But if you said I’d only get taxed at 40% I would work. Because of the tax rate, o decide not to work, HMRC take less tax and the government can’t spend as much on public services.

it’s looking at the actually effect of the policy. If the effect of a tax increase actually results in less tax overall - how is that a good policy?

 

[Pexbo]

if the Tories are just short of a majority, they could offer a referendum of Johnson's deal which could appeal to Swinson and the Lib Dems

Honestly, I’m absolutely fine with that if Swinson has the political clout to force it to happen. I think she will get played though. They will slow walk it to a no deal because there is no way in hell the ERG would agree to a coalition otherwise and I expect there will be more ERG seats than Lib Dem seats.

 

[sammsky1]

tbh i not quite sure sorry

I would point out that Swinson has said she would work with Labour (but only if Corbyn isn't the leader)

That’s what I meant. If she insists surely labour have to make the Corbyn sacrifice?

 

[T00lsh3d]

if the Tories are just short of a majority, they could offer a referendum of Johnson's deal which could appeal to Swinson and the Lib Dems

That seems possible.....though wouldn’t it totally undermine the whole “get brexit done” line the Tories have sold this election on? Suppose once they’re in power it doesn’t matter

 

[sammsky1]

A lot of Kuessenbergs VDO’s of said interview now also ‘unviewable’ on Twitter. Massive tidy up going on. I think she is fcuked.

Tweet

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And yet .....

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And This!!

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WTF is going on???

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Really cos I have a wage bill of about 6 million a year and you know what although I earn a good wage I know a work a fek lot more than anybody else

And as I sign off all their overtime (which I don't get ) I literally know that

Minimum anybody earned last year 57k... (Full time I had a part time person on 38k) Most other than me 175

I generally work about 80 hours a week plus emails etc in the weekends ... Nobody is given £200k plus... It's feking earned

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Well, many of them would incorporate themselves as a business for a start as the rates they pay for a combo of dividends and salary will then be lower than self employed income tax.

IR35 - massive effect on contractors, especially as employers apply it as a blanket policy.

 

[Fiskey]

According to OECD the German tax burden is virtually 5% higher. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-as-percentage-of-gdp-oecd.png.jpg

If that's true then our tax burdens would actually be more in line if Corbyn's reforms were enacted.

Yeah, I've seen that. I'm going off knowing quite a few people who have worked in both countries, who say it's pretty much the same but that might be a wrong impression. Housing in Germany is much cheaper so you may feel as if you have the same amount of money or more in your pocket.

 

[Fiskey]

According to OECD the German tax burden is virtually 5% higher. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-as-percentage-of-gdp-oecd.png.jpg

If that's true then our tax burdens would actually be more in line if Corbyn's reforms were enacted.

Also as I indicated above, tax revenues as a proportion of GDP isn't a perfect proxy for personal taxation.

Germany has a brilliant economy that makes lots of physical objects, which in turn makes businesses much easier to tax.

 

[Pexbo]

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And yet .....

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WTF is going on???

The optimist in me is fairly certain it’s being reviewed by Police so it obviously can’t be left available to view and influence more people. Just looking through twitter earlier and lots of people have shared that they have reported it to the MET and while the MET can’t comment on individual cases they are “welcome to add their name to the complaint”.

 

[Pexbo]

Also as I indicated above, tax revenues as a proportion of GDP isn't a perfect proxy for personal taxation.

Germany has a brilliant economy that makes lots of physical objects, which in turn makes businesses much easier to tax.

So they’ve got a high tax rate and a brilliant economy.

Sorry mate I’m really struggling with this.