UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[Lentwood]

You need to win over people like me if you want a majority. So how about listening to what people like me have been saying, for once?

We’re happy to listen - tell me what policies you disagreed with, why you disagreed with them, what you would have done instead, what impact you believe that would have had and why that would have been more popular with the electorate. Also, tell me where the Labour Party should pitch itself and what policies it should pursue? Should a Labour Government invest in public services? If so, how should that be funded? Should we raise the minimum wage? Should we ban zero hour contracts? Should we end austerity? Should Labour have just committed to delivering Brexit?

See how just writing their is no mandate for a left wing Labour Party or “Corbynism” or whatever will just get your standard response and this is where the political dialogue in this country is failing on both sides. Big, bold high-level statements based on whatever article people read last.

This is not a criticism of you btw, just genuinely interested - however most people can’t be bothered to actually think about what THEY really want from Politics

 

[Fluctuation0161]

You need to win over people like me if you want a majority. So how about listening to what people like me have been saying, for once?

From the posts I've read from you, you are more likely to move further right of the Tories than move anywhere near centre left or left.

The votes needed by Labour were the Labour leave voters and the Tory voting working classes.

 

[TheGame]

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[Lentwood]

From the posts I've read from you, you are more likely to move further right of the Tories than move anywhere near centre left or left.

The votes needed by Labour were the Labour leave voters and the Tory voting working classes.

I think that’s a bit unfair, Labour is a broad church, everybody should in theory be able to comfortably vote Labour, if they feel they can’t, that’s our failure

I say “our” as a Labour Party member, just for clarity and transparency!

 

[nickm]

You are wasting your breath.

Yep. You cant reason with this kind of thinking, it will have to be sidelined. Lord knows who they will find who can take that on.

 

[Lentwood]

Yep. You cant reason with this kind of thinking, it will have to be sidelined. Lord knows who they will find who can take that on.

In all fairness, you both did exactly what you criticise the left for...made blanket statements based on assumptions with no analysis - is that unfair?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I think that’s a bit unfair, Labour is a broad church, everybody should in theory be able to comfortably vote Labour, if they feel they can’t, that’s our failure

I say “our” as a Labour Party member, just for clarity and transparency!

As a non Labour member I wish you good luck. But suspect you would have more joy getting Jeremy Hunt to vote Labour than Nick.

 

[DFreshKing]

We’re happy to listen - tell me what policies you disagreed with, why you disagreed with them, what you would have done instead, what impact you believe that would have had and why that would have been more popular with the electorate. Also, tell me where the Labour Party should pitch itself and what policies it should pursue? Should a Labour Government invest in public services? If so, how should that be funded? Should we raise the minimum wage? Should we ban zero hour contracts? Should we end austerity? Should Labour have just committed to delivering Brexit?

See how just writing their is no mandate for a left wing Labour Party or “Corbynism” or whatever will just get your standard response and this is where the political dialogue in this country is failing on both sides. Big, bold high-level statements based on whatever article people read last.

This is not a criticism of you btw, just genuinely interested - however most people can’t be bothered to actually think about what THEY really want from Politics

]I'm not sure people are listening but for me as a 'labour leaver' seeing Corbyn give in to the blarite side of the party on an issue (EU) he has voted against for 30 years destroyed my trust in him. For his personal beliefs against the EU but also for his idea of democracy itself. Any party or position of remain in this election was a complete non starter and would have been even if I voted remain (it was a close decision for me).

If we do not honor votes what is the point of elections or democracy in the first place? Please do not give me the line of I was lied to. The propaganda from both sides was as it ever was, that's how politics works unfortunately. I was not taken in by The character assassination of Corbyn or Johnson for that matter but I did instinctively dislike Swinson, even though her position was clear - it was clearly anti-democratic!

It's not the first time I have moved across the aisle I did when tuition fee's were introduced after saying they would not be while I was studying, I guess I dislike manifesto's being ignored.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

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Interesting. Definitely Corbyn and his lack of popularity/ negative perception was a big barrier. 4 years of media smears will do that.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

There were 13,000 redundancies in the yard under Franks and a tory government when the it's always thrived under a Labour government and mp. Its just... Aargh bollocks, I give up, I really do DT, I'm dreading the next 5 years and fully expect the already wide gap of those who have and those who don't to grow massively, not just in Barra but across the country. I mean come on Boris fecking Johnson ffs.

As somebody said the fact he has got so much support in the north he has to look after them or they will all turn. As most of them have said it is all about Brexit, nothing else. So he better make a good job of that. The Labour Party is such a mess, until they sort themselves out nothing will change.

As you say Cecil Franks got the job through fear that Labour were going to axe jobs which then happened anyway.

 

[2mufc0]

So some are saying Labour need to become more Tory to get elected, what is the point then?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Not surprised.

its not terrifying, it’s Katie Hopkins - just ignore her.

How many times do people like Burgon need to be reminded Labour lost in 2017?

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watchEd an interview yesterday sign him, and he was still in full campaign mode, I’m. It sure if he’s seen the news... he’s in full on denial mode, and is just out of touch with the electorate.

 

[Wolverine]

Labour lost due to a combination of being on the wrong side of a cultural war with regards to Brexit and an unpopular leader. But centrists are kidding themselves that a soft left leader with a more centrist platform would have done any better.

There needs to be better fundamentals with regards to communication of party policy, more aggressively going after status quo on other issues now that Brexit will be achieved. Along with a choice of leadership that has broad appeal. But there needs to be a clear and concise differentiation between them and the current leadership on issues that are in themselves popular otherwise it will Ed Miliband all over again.

Thats the hard truth now, I have heard arguments why the "hard left" manifesto failed but not convinced how a more centrist one would have fared and would fare any better. It is entirely possibly to shift public opinion and polls and shift the overton window, you need the right candidate without skeletons and an effective ground game with an effective and proactive strategy to anticipate and counteract smears. Its a dirty game with social media fake new hoaxes, russian bots, a status quo protecting state media (regardless of what people say all play a factor). Simply saying a softer left approach or this candidate or that is the way forward is simplistic but also wrong.

 

[Wolverine]

So some are saying Labour need to become more Tory to get elected, what is the point then?

Quite the opposite, they need to stand out against Tories. The issue of Brexit unfortunately did cloud things a lot along with a universally unpopular leader. The people extrapolating their own political narrative that only a more centrist or right wing platform is the way to go are opportunists and inaccurate. There is a solid base of progressives in this country, young people and independents who with the issue of Brexit now hopefully due to be sorted are all gettable with a manifesto that leans left with populist appeal but also appears credible when communicated well by an appealing candidate.

 

[Lentwood]

]I'm not sure people are listening but for me as a 'labour leaver' seeing Corbyn give in to the blarite side of the party on an issue (EU) he has voted against for 30 years destroyed my trust in him. For his personal beliefs against the EU but also for his idea of democracy itself. Any party or position of remain in this election was a complete non starter and would have been even if I voted remain (it was a close decision for me).

If we do not honor votes what is the point of elections or democracy in the first place? Please do not give me the line of I was lied to. The propaganda from both sides was as it ever was, that's how politics works unfortunately. I was not taken in by The character assassination of Corbyn or Johnson for that matter but I did instinctively dislike Swinson, even though her position was clear - it was clearly anti-democratic!

It's not the first time I have moved across the aisle I did when tuition fee's were introduced after saying they would not be while I was studying, I guess I dislike manifesto's being ignored.

That’s an interesting post because the current opinions trending on Twitter are that the Party didn’t appeal enough to the “3rd way” voters...but see you’re opinion is that Corbyn should have stuck to his guns on Brexit and taken us out of Europe.

This is why I feel Brexit was a bigger challenge for the Left than the Right, don’t know if you agree? Whatever you think of Corbyn’s eventual stance on Brexit, he was clearly trying not to split the Party 50:50 on the issue and ended up not really appealing to either

 

[Classical Mechanic]

what is the point then?

To win power and actually affect positive change.

The Corbyn movement has achieved the exact opposite of what it aimed to do. It fecked over the people that it was trying to protect. They rejected May's deal which protected workers rights by law because they thought they could force another election and win it. They fell into every trap that Boris's team set for them to portray the Labour party as the enemy of the people. Boris now has a convincing democratic mandate for a hard(er) Brexit which will punish the weakest in society and could lead to the 'bonfire of workers rights' that Corbyn and his movement vowed to stop .

On every level Corbynism has been a spectacular failure. Driven by out an out of touch membership that poisoned the well with tone deaf wacky ideas like 'extending freedom of movement' and a campaign that it transpires was run like a 6th form student election.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

What % these migrants will be NHS workers? Even if it’s 10%, 180,000 new employees to cover 1,620,000 new migrant patients plus the ever increasing population on top of this. This is clearly going to have a strain on resources.
on.

We get quite a lot of EU NHS workers* @Josep but that aint the point, all the statistics show that the mass EU migration since the 00's has a positive effect on public funding because they don't use things like the NHS, as I've argued multiple times in this thread, old people are the strain on ALL health services around the World, and EU migrants aren't old people!
How can they "strain" the NHS whilst paying more for it than us and not using it?

You can say daft stuff like "1,620,000 new migrant patients" but they aren't patients, that's the fecking thing and steadily, if the Tory government didn't insist on tory austerity they could use the extra 4bn a year that EU migrants pay into the system (NET) to improve the NHS and services year on year, instead they've fecking cut spending drastically for almost 10 years!

*65,000 NHS staff in England are EU nationals - 5.5% of all staff. Overall, 13.1% of NHS staff say that their nationality is not British

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

So some are saying Labour need to become more Tory to get elected, what is the point then?

Incrementalism is the way to go. You can promise all the free stuff you want but people will disregard it as lies to get elected.

Labour should pick one big issue that we all know needs addressing fund it through a tax increase that isn't about the top 5% but everyone contributing and then hammer on about the rewards tackling that issue will have for everyone.

To me the issue should be housing.

You build trust by being open about the fact that nothing is free and it can't always be someone else who pays.

Then, every problem is solved by better housing, cost of living, NHS , imigration etc etc. You hammer on and on until everyone associates you with the one policy and at the election you already have the voters thinking they know you are a safe bet but you have a plan that might work in reality and improve things.

When you get into power you are moving towards the bigger goal on social justice one step at a time and you move the needle left.

 

[ivaldo]

Freedman really doesn’t - I’ve never read such a load of garbage in all my life.

Starts by correctly stating that people rejected Corbyn. No issue with that. But why did they reject Corbyn? The same reason they have rejected every slightly left of centre Labour leader - the press absolutely annihilated him at every single opportunity.

So what Freedman is basically advocating is that the Labour Party needs to exist purely as a Tory-lite vassal if it ever wants to get elected. Any increases in tax, promises to invest in public services or increase the minimum wage are absolutely out of the question.

So my question is to Freedman, what’s the point? Shift to the right to get elected and then change absolutely nothing?

See, I actually know some “proper” working class people, unlike people like Freedman.

They didn’t get out of bed on Thursday morning to reject an increase in income tax for the richest 5% or a small increase in corporation tax. Many of them don’t really understand or care about Nationalisation (other than a few may “understand” it’s bad because the Sun told them so). They didn’t vote against a Green Industrial revolution.

They got out of bed on Thursday morning to “get Brexit done” and keep that lying, anti-Semitic, terrorist-sympathising, Jihadi-loving, Marxist, Communist, Queen-hating, security threatening racist out of power and give loveable rogue Boris his mandate.

I fully understand someone will be quick to label me part of the problem - well I’m not making excuses here. If you’re not appealing to these people you’ve got to get out and change that. You know the press will vilify anything a hare’s breath left of centre so your candidates/MPs need to be all over their local communities, proving they’re not the monsters the papers say they are.

If you want to come on and tell me I’m wrong feel free to do so, but go and canvass opinion in my hometown in Derbyshire, ex mining community, or many of the thousands like it, then tell me again what you think. Guarantee you’ll get a rundown of “the Sun’s greatest hits”

I also know a lot of working class people, having grown up in a deprived area, born to parents with old fashioned working class jobs from council housing, having spent extensive time working in the benefit system, family members that have been on long term sick etc. and I think he pretty much nails it.

You can blame the media all you like but Corbyn burned his own house to the ground. They may have struck the match but he was the one pouring petrol over everything.
When staunch labour supporters and constituencies that haven't voted Tory for decades defect, you've got to look inward. The influence of the media didn't begin in the past 4 years. We knew Corbyn was the problem, we knew that years ago, but instead of adapting he's dug in, and anyone that criticized him was met with a volley of abuse. I've found the left to be far more militant than the right throughout this campaign.

In the end he came across desperate. You can offer believable reforms without chucking in shit like free broadband to an already bulging manifesto. I know the general consensus here and elsewhere is that anyone who voted Tory is a raging moron, but it's an indictment to the man when Boris' list of lies still appear more credible than Corbyn's outlandish shopping list. The public aren't complete idiots. It was alarmingly easy to pick holes in Labour, and Corbyn's flat refusal to justify how the numbers add up or have a definitive stance on Brexit only compounded the issue. Any competent leader could've defused the Anti-Semite situation. His inability to deal with that was the only reason it became such a focus. That's his fault.

Boris was able to offer a simple, clear and concise message. It may not have been a particularly good message, but it was a message people could understand nonetheless. People didn't vote Tory because they liked Boris, they voted Tory because they hated Corbyn more.

 

[2mufc0]

Quite the opposite, they need to stand out against Tories. The issue of Brexit unfortunately did cloud things a lot along with a universally unpopular leader. The people extrapolating their own political narrative that only a more centrist or right wing platform is the way to go are opportunists and inaccurate. There is a solid base of progressives in this country, young people and independents who with the issue of Brexit now hopefully due to be sorted are all gettable with a manifesto that leans left with populist appeal but also appears credible when communicated well by an appealing candidate.

Great post, fully agree. If Labour sold out their progressive direction I wouldn't vote for them.

 

[DFreshKing]

That’s an interesting post because the current opinions trending on Twitter are that the Party didn’t appeal enough to the “3rd way” voters...but see you’re opinion is that Corbyn should have stuck to his guns on Brexit and taken us out of Europe.

This is why I feel Brexit was a bigger challenge for the Left than the Right, don’t know if you agree? Whatever you think of Corbyn’s eventual stance on Brexit, he was clearly trying not to split the Party 50:50 on the issue and ended up not really appealing to either

If people took it in terms of Brexit still being a debate then yes, it is harder for moderates on the left as the EU agenda of neoliberalism fits nicely with that world view. The harder socialist left though has immense issues with the EU power structure though as illustrated by Corbyn's voting record and stalwarts like Tony Benn, this is was closer to my labour than Blairs spin machine. When you have a referendum though that debate on whether it happens should be over, the last 3 years trying to wrangle out of it is what has got us here.
We now have a totally different vision of leaving now which is unfortunate but still it's a long game and one of the great things about leaving is we can decide things quicker and more directly in the future which is where I would hope democracy takes us when it falls inline with most other human structures using technology effectively. I believe the future is local governance for much more direct control of decisions for the population which is a benefit of not taking laws from Brussels. It's one of the reason silly panicking over labour laws and such is ridiculous, as if we don't have a parliament to make any laws we require irrespective of being in the EU or not.

If people don't engage with views and try to find common ground this shock and disbelief and results that don't go our way will continue.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

@Don't Kill Bill - I think this is the way to go, although I think 2-3 flagship policies rather than just one (the media will let the Tories get away with having one policy, it would crucify Labour for the same).

Housing, NHS and improving regional infrastructure should be the focus of a future Labour campaign. When in power they should get their hands dirty and get involved in job creation in the post-industrial Midlands and North (this is what Blair should have done with his budget surpluses instead of trusting the market which was only ever going to bother with the big cities).

 

[2cents]

It seems this is not a parody:

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[nickm]

Thats the hard truth now, I have heard arguments why the "hard left" manifesto failed but not convinced how a more centrist one would have fared and would fare any better.

Maybe. I think it's too early to say one way or the other. The people jumping right in an saying it was the leader and not the manifesto aren't absorbing what defeated MPs are saying about what people said on the doorstep, e.g. this one. "The message on the doorstep in this election was clear: the party was out of touch, the leader was weak, and we weren’t a credible party of government. Our manifesto was not affordable, our party had become nasty."

 

[Drifter]

We don't move back to the centre, that would be a mistake. The policy positions were immensely popular

Agree with that. Liberal Democrats have shown that middle of the road politics as had it's day.

 

[nickm]

From the posts I've read from you, you are more likely to move further right of the Tories than move anywhere near centre left or left.

The votes needed by Labour were the Labour leave voters and the Tory voting working classes.

You're wrong, I'm a middle class voter who has voted Labour in the past. I refuse to vote Tory and I want a Labour party I can believe in. Not this lot of tedious class warriors who aren't interested in representing me, only attacking me or using me.

 

[nickm]

We’re happy to listen - tell me what policies you disagreed with, why you disagreed with them, what you would have done instead, what impact you believe that would have had and why that would have been more popular with the electorate. Also, tell me where the Labour Party should pitch itself and what policies it should pursue? Should a Labour Government invest in public services? If so, how should that be funded? Should we raise the minimum wage? Should we ban zero hour contracts? Should we end austerity? Should Labour have just committed to delivering Brexit?

I don't know. Far too early to be talking about policies and frankly who knows what policies will be needed in 5 years' time. I would say, as a start, there should be far less of them, and they should all be rigorously costed and believably affordable.

 

[Wumminator]

I don't know. Far too early to be talking about policies and frankly who knows what policies will be needed in 5 years' time. I would say, as a start, there should be far less of them, and they should all be rigorously costed and believably affordable.

“labour should appeal to me”
Ok, what do you want?
”well it’s to early to talk about what i want”

 

[nickm]

Interesting. Definitely Corbyn and his lack of popularity/ negative perception was a big barrier. 4 years of media smears will do that.

Yet knowing that, the Einsteins of Labour still chose him.

 

[nickm]

“labour should appeal to me”
Ok, what do you want?
”well it’s to early to talk about what i want”

I know the lefty class warriors have made up their minds already about what will win next time, but given their record so far, you'll excuse me if I wait a little longer until more data is in. Yeah?

 

[Redlambs]

Agree with that. Liberal Democrats have shown that middle of the road politics as had it's day.

This line keeps being regurgitated over and over by the left (all the predictable deflective ones are, funny that). Now I'm not saying I disagree with it, though I think it's not 100% correct if I'm honest, but how are the Lib Dems ever proof of anything? You all seem to have already forgot Labour's crushing humiliation and have defaulted back to the same old soundbites already. If anything one could say the Left has had it's day after that, but that too would obviously be wrong.

That all being said, I've no problem with them sticking out left if they get a real leader and start to actually fecking listen to people and see what's going on. I fundamentally agree with most of their policies, just not the atrocious way they are run.

 

[Redlambs]

I know the lefty class warriors have made up their minds already about what will win next time, but given their record so far, you'll excuse me if I wait a little longer until more data is in. Yeah?

Same as it ever was for Labour.

I, for one, am shocked.

 

[2mufc0]

its not terrifying, it’s Katie Hopkins - just ignore her.

It's terryifing for minorities mate. These are the feckwits the Tories pandered to and never denounced, Tommy Robinson is a Conservative member ffs. They've been emboldened by the PM's racist comments and most likely switched voting from the likes of Ukip to the Tories.

These people are not harmless, the likes of Katie Hopkins are the ones that peddle the great replacement /white genocide of Europe conspiracies. And as we have seen in NZ it only took one right wing nutjob to massacre a minority in their place of worship.

 

[2mufc0]

Incrementalism is the way to go. You can promise all the free stuff you want but people will disregard it as lies to get elected.

Labour should pick one big issue that we all know needs addressing fund it through a tax increase that isn't about the top 5% but everyone contributing and then hammer on about the rewards tackling that issue will have for everyone.

To me the issue should be housing.

You build trust by being open about the fact that nothing is free and it can't always be someone else who pays.

Then, every problem is solved by better housing, cost of living, NHS , imigration etc etc. You hammer on and on until everyone associates you with the one policy and at the election you already have the voters thinking they know you are a safe bet but you have a plan that might work in reality and improve things.

When you get into power you are moving towards the bigger goal on social justice one step at a time and you move the needle left.

I can get behind this.

 

[Fiskey]

Agree with that. Liberal Democrats have shown that middle of the road politics as had it's day.

Lib Dems weren't middle of the road in this election. Revoking article 50 was an extreme position.

 

[fergieisold]

Do you believe any of what you wrote?

If you do, you need to read a book or two.

well the country obviously believes it. If
You can tell me why the working class don’t want employment and low taxes then go ahead!

 

[nickm]

Lib Dems weren't middle of the road in this election. Revoking article 50 was an extreme position.

That's interesting and you might be right about that.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

No, they weren't.

If somebody says let's give everybody in the country a million pounds, of course everyone will say brilliant.

Ask them if it's a good idea to give everyone in the country a million pounds, and most will say no.

In isolation the Labour policies were popular. Bundled together people realised they were unrealistic.

This is nonsense and not backed by any data whatsoever as per usual.

 

[2cents]

a campaign that it transpires was run like a 6th form student election

Just reading about this for the first time:

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[SteveJ]

BBC staff express fear of public distrust after election coverage
Director-general calls accusations of bias ‘conspiracy theories’

'The BBC’s director-general has expressed his exasperation with “conspiracy theories” about the broadcaster’s election news coverage, although some of its journalists privately fear that errors during the campaign may have hit public trust in the corporation.

Tony Hall emailed staff on Friday to thank them for their work on the BBC’s coverage, which has led to the corporation’s political news output coming under intense online scrutiny. This followed criticism of the editing out laughter aimed at Boris Johnson in a news bulletin, reporters uncritically repeating Conservative sources, such as when a Labour activist was erroneously accused of punching a Tory aide, and the prime minister escaping scrutiny after dodging a one-on-one interview with Andrew Neil.

Hall said the BBC’s critics were often seeing bias in what were genuine human errors: “In a frenetic campaign where we’ve produced hundreds of hours of output, of course we’ve made the odd mistake and we’ve held up our hands to them. Editors are making tough calls every minute of the day. But I don’t accept the view of those critics who jump on a handful of examples to suggest we’re somehow biased one way or the other.”

He also suggested social media platforms should find ways to reduce the level of public criticism aimed at journalists, such as BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg: “Elections always put the BBC’s impartiality in the spotlight. Social media offers a megaphone to those who want to attack us and makes this pressure greater than ever. The conspiracy theories that abound are frustrating. And let’s be clear – some of the abuse which is directed at our journalists who are doing their best for audiences day in, day out is sickening. It shouldn’t happen. And I think it’s something social media platforms really need to do more about.”

Despite this, there remain concerns within the corporation’s newsrooms that this election was a tough challenge for a broadcaster that strives for accuracy. More than 30 BBC journalists spoke to the Guardian about the outlet’s coverage in the final days of the campaign, ranging from senior on-air presenters to mid-level producers and recent hires.'

Another employee involved in the broadcaster’s politics output during the election said: “I’m proud of the programmes we’ve put together, but I feel like we’ve been undermined at every turn by constant gaffes on the part of senior presenters and editors. I detect an unhealthy us-versus-them mentality, an unwillingness to say sorry when the BBC gets it wrong and a genuine terror of upsetting the government in particular.”

More:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...ar-of-public-distrust-after-election-coverage