Carl
has permanently erect nipples
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2008
- Messages
- 45,380
Quite.People’s football knowledge in this place at times.
Quite.People’s football knowledge in this place at times.
? So he's improved then?
I think that they have both improved but you only see it when Martial and Rashford are together, for at least two reasons. First they look for each others all the time even when they are in tight spaces and secondly they understand and anticipate each others movement. When Martial drift deep or wide, Rashford moves to the middle and when Rashford is the one initiating the movement Martial compensates too. When one of them isn't on the pitch, most of their game becomes useless because there is no structural adaptation. Some players seem to be imprisoned in boxes, Pereira and James seem to never move into the box while Mata mainly tries to be at the edge of the box for a shot.Yes. We made him the main penalty taker and he’s scored 8 of them.
Ole master class. Can you actually raise a good point?
You can criticize a performance and in the last two games his issues have been about technical accuracy, he has been surprisingly poor in that department and as far as I can remember failed to run with the ball even once. But his hold up play was fine at the exception of a handful of poor passes.I know I shouldn't still be surprised by this, but it really does amaze me the lengths people will go to to excuse awful performances by certain United players. Martial has certainly hit cult levels in this regard.
You can criticise a performance and still think a player is really good you know.
This!. We still only had 2 creative players on the field yesterday. Mata and Bruno. Neither full backs did much. Martial seems to have been told to drop deeper recently to get involved in the build up play leaving the wide players like Daniel James who has been poor, Greenwood who isn't really a winger and doesn't get in behind the defence, leaving us no real goal threat.I think to think more about team performances and less about individual ones. This isn't golf or tennis, and it's the team performances that contribute to good individual ones, not the other way around. Martial is a quality player, as is Rashford and Pogba but you aren't going to see it consistently without the right players around them.
Not really sure what you're using to judge "footballing IQ" tbh. His vision (for example) is very good. We've seen that time and again, albeit mainly when he is playing with Rashford.His main problem is his footballing IQ isn't very high. Lots of skill, plays off instinct but he is not the type of centre forward who can read the game hence why he is so inconsistent. Agree that he should not be a Man Utd No.9. Played under multiple managers in multiple systems and has yet to really shine or show consistent form in any of them. It's laughable that people compare him with other forwards and think other big clubs would be in for him again.
What infuriates me though is his first touch, especially upon recieving a pass. It is so inconsistent, either traps the ball well or it just pings off his boots. It's a basic skill yet it's lets him down so often and completely kills off our attack.
Yes I agree they have improved but as expected. If you trust in them they have the qualities to be to performers. But they also need a good environment, they love playing with eachother for a reason. As you said they can anticipate One-another.I think that they have both improved but you only see it when Martial and Rashford are together, for at least two reasons. First they look for each others all the time even when they are in tight spaces and secondly they understand and anticipate each others movement. When Martial drift deep or wide, Rashford moves to the middle and when Rashford is the one initiating the movement Martial compensates too. When one of them isn't on the pitch, most of their game becomes useless because there is no structural adaptation. Some players seem to be imprisoned in boxes, Pereira and James seem to never move into the box while Mata mainly tries to be at the edge of the box for a shot.
Football IQ? Really.... I’ve never really had him down as a player with a bad touch either... Are you just judging his last few poor performances?His main problem is his footballing IQ isn't very high. Lots of skill, plays off instinct but he is not the type of centre forward who can read the game hence why he is so inconsistent. Agree that he should not be a Man Utd No.9. Played under multiple managers in multiple systems and has yet to really shine or show consistent form in any of them. It's laughable that people compare him with other forwards and think other big clubs would be in for him again.
What infuriates me though is his first touch, especially upon recieving a pass. It is so inconsistent, either traps the ball well or it just pings off his boots. It's a basic skill yet it's lets him down so often and completely kills off our attack.
The entire team looks to have poor "footballing IQ" really. I think a lot of it is down to not having a functioning system in which they all train to be on the same wavelength. Players stop trying the creative passes because their teammates don't respond to them, or because the team isn't drilled to create openings for the creative pass. Teams like City always seem to have tons of space to attack, whereas we're nearly always up against a brick wall. Obviously some players are more creative than others, but generally they've all been blunted by the lack of system.Not really sure what you're using to judge "footballing IQ" tbh. His vision (for example) is very good. We've seen that time and again, albeit mainly when he is playing with Rashford.
Well your main striker goes missing is part of the problem. You cant maintain shape and pressure if your lone striker drifts around hiding.This!. We still only had 2 creative players on the field yesterday. Mata and Bruno. Neither full backs did much. Martial seems to have been told to drop deeper recently to get involved in the build up play leaving the wide players like Daniel James who has been poor, Greenwood who isn't really a winger and doesn't get in behind the defence, leaving us no real goal threat.
The whole team is devoid of creativity.
If we want to play without a target man which is obviously the way ole wants to play as we got rid of Lukaku and gave the role to Martial, we need players like Bruno, Pogba, Fred, James and the full backs creating for him and Rashford when they are making runs between the lines.
This notion of blaming Martial for being poor when not scoring or messing up when deeper is ridiculous. That's never been his game. Hes better running at defenders and scoring goals.
I agree. He is not a CF and the sooner Ole realises this and plays Ighalo or Greenwood there the sooner we will start winning these games.In my opinion Martials biggest problem is that he doesn't see the game. He is reactive rather than proactive. He doesn't see the space and would rather receive the ball to his feet and then try to create rather than make a run that creates space. He is a very talented player but he is too often found with his back to goal standing at the top of the 18 or hanging out on the wing and most of his goals come from some sort of individual play. He just doesn't have a strikers instinct. If he can add "tap ins" to his game, then he would be a very dangerous player. I won't be surprised if in our next game he starts on the left wing with Igahlo in the middle, and I also won't be surprised if he has a very good game because in my opinion, that's his best position...
He has not shown much in the past two years to warrant us buying or building our play around him. It's up to him to improve his football now.A frustrating player, and he still looks like a highlights reel player rather than someone evolving into something more. Even that would be manageable if he looked happy to be an impact sub, but he seems to need his managers to show faith in him as a starter to show any drive - he hasn't got that "I'll show them" thing in his armour.
There's no doubt he needs service, but he really isn't easy to serve. People often use the term "invisible" about strikers when they're not seeing much of the ball - but if you watch them live and look for them, you can usually see what they're trying to do.
Whereas if you look for Martial you usually see him stood still and it's often somewhere where a pass either can't reach him, or will get intercepted (because he seldom moves to an approaching ball or a ball played to run onto) or it can only go to him as a "hospital pass" where he needs luck as well as skill to do anything useful. He hasn't got the instincts/greed of a central striker either, when the ball's bobbling around the goal mouth or we actually do get a good cross in, he's not there and he's not the one rushing in to be the first to it.
That said, players do develop at different ages and he's 24 now. Not a kid, but that's how old Salah was when he was bought by Roma. So there's definitely scope - if he himself is committed to that development and can find someone who understands him well enough to guide him. There's no doubt he needs a partner up front sharing the burden as well, but I think the jury's still out on who that partner is, or whether it's worth hunting for one.
Problem is Greenwood isn't ready yet either. He's a great finisher when he gets a chance but his movement isn't very good either. I hope Ighalo can help solve this...I agree. He is not a CF and the sooner Ole realises this and plays Ighalo or Greenwood there the sooner we will start winning these games.
Did he actually make much of a fuss about it? I can only remember the weirdos on here using it as another excuse. Apparently he would have been a very different player if Jose hadn't hurt his delicate feelings and he would once again rise like the titan he is when the 9 was returned to it's rightful place upon his glorious back.My conclusion is that, although he clamoured for the shirt and seemingly sees himself as #9, he isn't one, and it's as simple as that.
I haven't had that line of thinking before because a player is supposed to know himself and come to life when given the opportunity he believes he is due in the role he wholeheartedly believes he should be playing in.
Martial made a lot of fuss about the #9 shirt, which, in hindsight is pretty odd because he has developed none of the traits for the role in any of the iterations stated in the OP.
Irrespective of what Martial is or is not as a player in terms of character and attitude, the conclusion is that he is not a lead the line striker and has no idea how to operate as one. We're judging him as one because that's the role he is supposed to be out there playing, which is where a lot of the annoyance with him is manifesting.
It's a strange situation, and lucky for Martial the actual #9 burden won't be his for much longer. Ighalo is far more important to the remainder of our season than some people can imagine. Martial back on the left, or at least, not being the #9, has to happen as soon as humanly possible whilst there is still a faint hope of 4th spot - also paramount before we go into the EL to have a system and roles figured out.
Yep he's clearly not ready yet. It's weird that I see so many people wanting him to start, seemingly not realising if we did that we'd be making the same mistake that's happening with James right now. Greenwood pretty much has had all his best moments coming off the bench, which isn't a bad thing, he's so young, he's getting plenty of time and experience though.Problem is Greenwood isn't ready yet either. He's a great finisher when he gets a chance but his movement isn't very good either. I hope Ighalo can help solve this...
Behind the scenes it seems like he made a fuss. Both Van Gall and Mourinho have hinted at it.Did he actually make much of a fuss about it? I can only remember the weirdos on here using it as another excuse. Apparently he would have been a very different player if Jose hadn't hurt his delicate feelings and he would once again rise like the titan he is when the 9 was returned to it's rightful place upon his glorious back.
In that case we should take it off him again in the summer. If he wants it he should be made to earn it. Ole put faith in him and he still looks like he can barely be arsed.Behind the scenes it seems like he made a fuss. Both Van Gall and Mourinho have hinted at it.
I really don't think Martial will ever make a CF.Both Rashford and Martial work better with the other playing.
Also helps when Pogba is in there.
In fact it's almost like having your best team out there helps.
What is totally certain is that we need a top quality striker addition.I really don't think Martial will ever make a CF.
Yep. If we go into next season with our current striking options it would be beyond negligent. Was obvious in the summer, painfully obvious now.What is totally certain is that we need a top quality striker addition.
My god someone who understands what he is seeing.Martial is a good player, but he's not going to all of a sudden play like someone he's not. We know his style. He likes to drop and link play, which means he needs runners behind him. Actually, Ole mentioned that yesterday, but proceeds to play Mata and Pereira behind him. The only one that attempted to run behind him was James.
Going forward, if we are to get the best out of him, we need to look at players who like to run in behind. I dont think its a coincidence that when James and Rashford flank Martial, we see better performances from him.
If we are to get a right winger in the summer, then it needs to be someone in the mould of Rashford, Mane, Salah, Sterling, etc.
Not obly will it benefit Martial, but players around him too. Fernandes looked up countless times and had to play the simple pass because no one was moving.
Ole needs to think about what he needs to compliment the players we have and not just buy for the sake of it!
My problem with him is not his output, when hes on form hes really good, but the problem with him is and has always been consistency. When Rashford has a bad day he puts in a good shift as the bare minimum and usually creates some danger.But Greenwood isn’t exactly Danny Welbeck. He had them numbers because he’s Mason Greenwood. You have to understand that... what you’ve just done is compare quality with quality.
Everyone is raving about Rashford’s season but how does Rashford numbers compare to Martial if we take away both of their penalty goals? I’ll think you’ll find your analysis looks up shites creek after that.
I’ll take a look now myself but go find out and get back to me too.