Quite.People’s football knowledge in this place at times.
Are Martial's problems to do with the level of the team or independent of them?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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I think that they have both improved but you only see it when Martial and Rashford are together, for at least two reasons. First they look for each others all the time even when they are in tight spaces and secondly they understand and anticipate each others movement. When Martial drift deep or wide, Rashford moves to the middle and when Rashford is the one initiating the movement Martial compensates too. When one of them isn't on the pitch, most of their game becomes useless because there is no structural adaptation. Some players seem to be imprisoned in boxes, Pereira and James seem to never move into the box while Mata mainly tries to be at the edge of the box for a shot.
I think to think more about team performances and less about individual ones. This isn't golf or tennis, and it's the team performances that contribute to good individual ones, not the other way around. Martial is a quality player, as is Rashford and Pogba but you aren't going to see it consistently without the right players around them.
You can criticize a performance and in the last two games his issues have been about technical accuracy, he has been surprisingly poor in that department and as far as I can remember failed to run with the ball even once. But his hold up play was fine at the exception of a handful of poor passes.
His main problem is his footballing IQ isn't very high. Lots of skill, plays off instinct but he is not the type of centre forward who can read the game hence why he is so inconsistent. Agree that he should not be a Man Utd No.9. Played under multiple managers in multiple systems and has yet to really shine or show consistent form in any of them. It's laughable that people compare him with other forwards and think other big clubs would be in for him again.
What infuriates me though is his first touch, especially upon recieving a pass. It is so inconsistent, either traps the ball well or it just pings off his boots. It's a basic skill yet it's lets him down so often and completely kills off our attack.
What infuriates me though is his first touch, especially upon recieving a pass. It is so inconsistent, either traps the ball well or it just pings off his boots. It's a basic skill yet it's lets him down so often and completely kills off our attack.
This!. We still only had 2 creative players on the field yesterday. Mata and Bruno. Neither full backs did much. Martial seems to have been told to drop deeper recently to get involved in the build up play leaving the wide players like Daniel James who has been poor, Greenwood who isn't really a winger and doesn't get in behind the defence, leaving us no real goal threat.
The whole team is devoid of creativity.
If we want to play without a target man which is obviously the way ole wants to play as we got rid of Lukaku and gave the role to Martial, we need players like Bruno, Pogba, Fred, James and the full backs creating for him and Rashford when they are making runs between the lines.
This notion of blaming Martial for being poor when not scoring or messing up when deeper is ridiculous. That's never been his game. Hes better running at defenders and scoring goals.
Not really sure what you're using to judge "footballing IQ" tbh. His vision (for example) is very good. We've seen that time and again, albeit mainly when he is playing with Rashford.
Yes I agree they have improved but as expected. If you trust in them they have the qualities to be to performers. But they also need a good environment, they love playing with eachother for a reason. As you said they can anticipate One-another.
Football IQ? Really.... I’ve never really had him down as a player with a bad touch either... Are you just judging his last few poor performances?
I’m gonna have to defend Martial. He is clearly a class player, with the right players around him he shines. He looked great when Rashford was in form for example.
He’s a bit spineless at times and lets his head drop when circumstances are difficult. Think this can be forgiven though considering how piss poor our attacking play is without pogba and Rashford.
He’s a bit spineless at times and lets his head drop when circumstances are difficult. Think this can be forgiven though considering how piss poor our attacking play is without pogba and Rashford.
The entire team looks to have poor "footballing IQ" really. I think a lot of it is down to not having a functioning system in which they all train to be on the same wavelength. Players stop trying the creative passes because their teammates don't respond to them, or because the team isn't drilled to create openings for the creative pass. Teams like City always seem to have tons of space to attack, whereas we're nearly always up against a brick wall. Obviously some players are more creative than others, but generally they've all been blunted by the lack of system.
Well your main striker goes missing is part of the problem. You cant maintain shape and pressure if your lone striker drifts around hiding.
Put prime drogba in this team or a prime rvn we'd be doing better than this
He seems to have caught Falcao’s falling down disease.
I think having Martial as the main goalscoring threat (CF) is ridiculous. He plays better from the left with the CF free to recieve passes from him, or to then play it back with his jinking runs into the box, yet his goals will still be minimal. We got 65 goals with Lukaku up front last season, but let him go, yet was a better CF than Martial, even with all his faults. We are still 29 goals off that target with 13 games to go.
Martial will never be a 20+ premier goals a season striker. I had a spat with someone beginning of the season about his productivity now hes the main striker and got his no 9 shirt back, new contract, a manager who appreciates him, he will be happy and score for fun etc etc. I said we will be lucky to get a dozen goals from him. Mourinho was right in my opinion when he said he wanted to sell him. Hes now 24 and still no better than his first season.
Martial will never be a 20+ premier goals a season striker. I had a spat with someone beginning of the season about his productivity now hes the main striker and got his no 9 shirt back, new contract, a manager who appreciates him, he will be happy and score for fun etc etc. I said we will be lucky to get a dozen goals from him. Mourinho was right in my opinion when he said he wanted to sell him. Hes now 24 and still no better than his first season.
A frustrating player, and he still looks like a highlights reel player rather than someone evolving into something more. Even that would be manageable if he looked happy to be an impact sub, but he seems to need his managers to show faith in him as a starter to show any drive - he hasn't got that "I'll show them" thing in his armour.
There's no doubt he needs service, but he really isn't easy to serve. People often use the term "invisible" about strikers when they're not seeing much of the ball - but if you watch them live and look for them, you can usually see what they're trying to do.
Whereas if you look for Martial you usually see him stood still and it's often somewhere where a pass either can't reach him, or will get intercepted (because he seldom moves to an approaching ball or a ball played to run onto) or it can only go to him as a "hospital pass" where he needs luck as well as skill to do anything useful. He hasn't got the instincts/greed of a central striker either, when the ball's bobbling around the goal mouth or we actually do get a good cross in, he's not there and he's not the one rushing in to be the first to it.
That said, players do develop at different ages and he's 24 now. Not a kid, but that's how old Salah was when he was bought by Roma. So there's definitely scope - if he himself is committed to that development and can find someone who understands him well enough to guide him. There's no doubt he needs a partner up front sharing the burden as well, but I think the jury's still out on who that partner is, or whether it's worth hunting for one.
There's no doubt he needs service, but he really isn't easy to serve. People often use the term "invisible" about strikers when they're not seeing much of the ball - but if you watch them live and look for them, you can usually see what they're trying to do.
Whereas if you look for Martial you usually see him stood still and it's often somewhere where a pass either can't reach him, or will get intercepted (because he seldom moves to an approaching ball or a ball played to run onto) or it can only go to him as a "hospital pass" where he needs luck as well as skill to do anything useful. He hasn't got the instincts/greed of a central striker either, when the ball's bobbling around the goal mouth or we actually do get a good cross in, he's not there and he's not the one rushing in to be the first to it.
That said, players do develop at different ages and he's 24 now. Not a kid, but that's how old Salah was when he was bought by Roma. So there's definitely scope - if he himself is committed to that development and can find someone who understands him well enough to guide him. There's no doubt he needs a partner up front sharing the burden as well, but I think the jury's still out on who that partner is, or whether it's worth hunting for one.
He's been trash in the last couple of games, but I think he always drops deep and rarely makes runs because that how he's been instructed.
And while I am hardly an Ole fan, he was right to do so. By dropping deep all the time, Martial opens up space where Rashford can thrive. Also, we lack(ed) midfielders with the ability to playmake, so Martial must come deep and play that role most of the time.
He's been very disappointing lately, but if you think that he is the main culprit for that, you should remember when he was out how bad we were. It's hard to believe, but we were even worse than we are now.
And while I am hardly an Ole fan, he was right to do so. By dropping deep all the time, Martial opens up space where Rashford can thrive. Also, we lack(ed) midfielders with the ability to playmake, so Martial must come deep and play that role most of the time.
He's been very disappointing lately, but if you think that he is the main culprit for that, you should remember when he was out how bad we were. It's hard to believe, but we were even worse than we are now.
My conclusion is that, although he clamoured for the shirt and seemingly sees himself as #9, he isn't one, and it's as simple as that.
I haven't had that line of thinking before because a player is supposed to know himself and come to life when given the opportunity he believes he is due in the role he wholeheartedly believes he should be playing in.
Martial made a lot of fuss about the #9 shirt, which, in hindsight is pretty odd because he has developed none of the traits for the role in any of the iterations stated in the OP.
Irrespective of what Martial is or is not as a player in terms of character and attitude, the conclusion is that he is not a lead the line striker and has no idea how to operate as one. We're judging him as one because that's the role he is supposed to be out there playing, which is where a lot of the annoyance with him is manifesting.
It's a strange situation, and lucky for Martial the actual #9 burden won't be his for much longer. Ighalo is far more important to the remainder of our season than some people can imagine. Martial back on the left, or at least, not being the #9, has to happen as soon as humanly possible whilst there is still a faint hope of 4th spot - also paramount before we go into the EL to have a system and roles figured out.
I haven't had that line of thinking before because a player is supposed to know himself and come to life when given the opportunity he believes he is due in the role he wholeheartedly believes he should be playing in.
Martial made a lot of fuss about the #9 shirt, which, in hindsight is pretty odd because he has developed none of the traits for the role in any of the iterations stated in the OP.
Irrespective of what Martial is or is not as a player in terms of character and attitude, the conclusion is that he is not a lead the line striker and has no idea how to operate as one. We're judging him as one because that's the role he is supposed to be out there playing, which is where a lot of the annoyance with him is manifesting.
It's a strange situation, and lucky for Martial the actual #9 burden won't be his for much longer. Ighalo is far more important to the remainder of our season than some people can imagine. Martial back on the left, or at least, not being the #9, has to happen as soon as humanly possible whilst there is still a faint hope of 4th spot - also paramount before we go into the EL to have a system and roles figured out.
Players are not improving here, they only improve when they leave. ie. Smalling, Lukaku, Depay.
In my opinion Martials biggest problem is that he doesn't see the game. He is reactive rather than proactive. He doesn't see the space and would rather receive the ball to his feet and then try to create rather than make a run that creates space. He is a very talented player but he is too often found with his back to goal standing at the top of the 18 or hanging out on the wing and most of his goals come from some sort of individual play. He just doesn't have a strikers instinct. If he can add "tap ins" to his game, then he would be a very dangerous player. I won't be surprised if in our next game he starts on the left wing with Igahlo in the middle, and I also won't be surprised if he has a very good game because in my opinion, that's his best position...
I agree. He is not a CF and the sooner Ole realises this and plays Ighalo or Greenwood there the sooner we will start winning these games.
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He has not shown much in the past two years to warrant us buying or building our play around him. It's up to him to improve his football now.
Problem is Greenwood isn't ready yet either. He's a great finisher when he gets a chance but his movement isn't very good either. I hope Ighalo can help solve this...
Did he actually make much of a fuss about it? I can only remember the weirdos on here using it as another excuse. Apparently he would have been a very different player if Jose hadn't hurt his delicate feelings and he would once again rise like the titan he is when the 9 was returned to it's rightful place upon his glorious back.
Yep he's clearly not ready yet. It's weird that I see so many people wanting him to start, seemingly not realising if we did that we'd be making the same mistake that's happening with James right now. Greenwood pretty much has had all his best moments coming off the bench, which isn't a bad thing, he's so young, he's getting plenty of time and experience though.
The squad is so horrible managed. Relying on the likes of Greenwood and James, not being able to leave out Martial when he's going through a bad patch again. It's a nightmare.
I find him the most frustrating player out of all of them. Pereira, probably playing at his best, fine, that's Ole's decision to pick him. Martial just doesn't have the personality when things a re tough.
Behind the scenes it seems like he made a fuss. Both Van Gall and Mourinho have hinted at it.
Both Rashford and Martial work better with the other playing.
Also helps when Pogba is in there.
In fact it's almost like having your best team out there helps.
Also helps when Pogba is in there.
In fact it's almost like having your best team out there helps.
In that case we should take it off him again in the summer. If he wants it he should be made to earn it. Ole put faith in him and he still looks like he can barely be arsed.
I really don't think Martial will ever make a CF.
What is totally certain is that we need a top quality striker addition.
Yep. If we go into next season with our current striking options it would be beyond negligent. Was obvious in the summer, painfully obvious now.
I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand how difficult it must be being the only decent goal scorer and being forced to play with your back to goal against 3 CB's. Any time Martial linked with the no.10 there should have been runners in behind him from the wings and there never was.
He hasn't been particularly good but I don't really think he can be expected to be that good at the moment, in this team, with these players & this set up.
He hasn't been particularly good but I don't really think he can be expected to be that good at the moment, in this team, with these players & this set up.
Interesting reading this thread and Lukaku's thread from last season. Oh well, hoping he gets out of this funk soon.
How come people are constantly trying to find excuses for player's like Martial and Pogba. The plain truth is no matter how talented you are if you are not willing to make runs and work hard every single minute to the highest standard on the field then you are never going to be a world class sportsman. Lack of movement speaks volume for how I rate Martial and he´s putting in nowhere near enough runs in. He´s talented but he´s hardly making it difficult for defenders with runs in behind or constantly make runs across the defence. But to his defence in some aspect he´s never a striker as his best position is coming in from the left like Rashford.
Martial is a good player, but he's not going to all of a sudden play like someone he's not. We know his style. He likes to drop and link play, which means he needs runners behind him. Actually, Ole mentioned that yesterday, but proceeds to play Mata and Pereira behind him. The only one that attempted to run behind him was James.
Going forward, if we are to get the best out of him, we need to look at players who like to run in behind. I dont think its a coincidence that when James and Rashford flank Martial, we see better performances from him.
If we are to get a right winger in the summer, then it needs to be someone in the mould of Rashford, Mane, Salah, Sterling, etc.
Not obly will it benefit Martial, but players around him too. Fernandes looked up countless times and had to play the simple pass because no one was moving.
Ole needs to think about what he needs to compliment the players we have and not just buy for the sake of it!
Going forward, if we are to get the best out of him, we need to look at players who like to run in behind. I dont think its a coincidence that when James and Rashford flank Martial, we see better performances from him.
If we are to get a right winger in the summer, then it needs to be someone in the mould of Rashford, Mane, Salah, Sterling, etc.
Not obly will it benefit Martial, but players around him too. Fernandes looked up countless times and had to play the simple pass because no one was moving.
Ole needs to think about what he needs to compliment the players we have and not just buy for the sake of it!
My god someone who understands what he is seeing.
Its just better to be quiet instead and let people question why he isn't running like the rabbit he never was.
Get a Rashford 2.0 for the right hand side when he is a suitable tactic for us centrally. Get a complete different striker centrally when we need a different type of tactical play to break up a team where we build from the wide to create a chance in the middle rather than the other way around.
We should have sold Martial for 50M 2 years ago and signed Ronaldo for 100M
Rashford-Ronaldo
..........Bruno
pogba-fred-Mct
---back 4----
Rashford-Ronaldo
..........Bruno
pogba-fred-Mct
---back 4----
When SAF was here we had Rooney, Berbatov, Chicharito, Macheda for backup/League cup, after Berbatov left we had RVP... now we just have Martial and Greenwood
My problem with him is not his output, when hes on form hes really good, but the problem with him is and has always been consistency. When Rashford has a bad day he puts in a good shift as the bare minimum and usually creates some danger.
Yesterday and vs Burnely he spent all game either standing on the shoulder of the CB's or drifting out wide/moving backwards. Not once that i can remember did he attempt to make any sort of progressive run and lose his marker. His movement is great when he has one of his good games, so its not like hes not capable, he just does not do it.
One thing is Lingard and Pereira regularly serving up stinkers, they're just shite, but there is no reason why Martial should as hes capable of much more