Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Champagne Football]

I'm all for a but of Jose bashing but the Scott comment is fecking ridiculous seeing as he's the one who brought him through here. Even when he was half the player he is now and nobody could understand what the hell he was doing in the team, Jose was still playing him.

I would disagree. He gave him one or two games here and there, after being tipped off by the youth managers that he was ready for bigger things.

But in general, Jose tended to stick with highly underperforming midfielders such as Matic/Herrera, while insisted to always play Pogba out of position, rather than give youth some game time. At Spurs he has given highly rated Troy Parrot 1 game since he took over. That doesn't mean he can take credit fir developing him because he played him 1 time.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Klopp and his coaching and tactics finished 8th in his first season, worse than his predecessor in the previous season. If he wasn't allowed to rebuild the team to his liking he would've walked.

Piss off, you know full well he took over with them mid season with them in 12th.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I don't really like how the self professed 'in brigade' have run out of excuses so they have now resorted to downright lies and/or extreme revisionism. I mean, literally all the stats are against Ole, the football is absolutely pathetic as are the results and there is no discernible reason to stick with him. The fact is - and it is a fact - is that he isn't a very good manager and he certainly isn't good enough for a top club.

The 'in brigade' can keep pretending we have a pattern of play. We don't. They can pretend Ole hasn't been backed. He has. They can pretend Liverpool signed megastars. They clearly didn't. They can pretend he done an awesome job clearing deadwood. He didn't, he fecked even that up. They can pretend we're fifth. We aren't. They can pretend the results have been as expected. They certainly fecking haven't. They can make up the wildest of excuses as to why the likes of Sheffield United are ahead of us in the league. I mean, I really could go on and on but all the stats are there in public viewing.

I think some of these 'in guys' don't even believe what they type, to be honest. They have made themselves part of this gang on here so they don't want to lose face and go against their new found online buddies. I mean, anyone that really believes he's a good manager at this point, is beyond deluded or else they're a hopeless romantic. Yes, we ALL know the Board and the owners are garbage, so that can be repeated until the cows come home, but yes, we get it, we all get it. I've really had my Moyes moment with him now, there's absolutely no way back and he just has to go as soon as possible.

 

[Roboc7]

80m net spend last summer isn't a fortune.

He’s spent best part of 200m which is more than anyone else in the league this season.

Even the gross spend of 80m is high in comparison to rest of the league, especially some of teams we are now competing with.

 

[Withnail]

I'm all for a but of Jose bashing but the Scott comment is fecking ridiculous seeing as he's the one who brought him through here. Even when he was half the player he is now and nobody could understand what the hell he was doing in the team, Jose was still playing him.

Mourinho can be a bit warped in his team selections.

It seemed to me that playing Mctominay was part of his 'Pogba's a virus look what I've to resort to' tactics.

There's an argument that if he'd gotten his way Pogba would have been replaced and Scott's opportunities would have dried up or he would have fallen out of favour for having a bad game or two.

 

[Enigma_87]

Klopp and his coaching and tactics finished 8th in his first season, worse than his predecessor in the previous season. If he wasn't allowed to rebuild the team to his liking he would've walked.

Klopp took part in 2 finals that season when he took them in the middle of it.
He qualified them for CL the very next season.

Ole took a team at 6th and finished 6th last season including a very good run initially to end up with one of the worst run in 50 years.

He spent 150m in the summer and furthermore has now just broke the 200m barrier and we're currently in 7th. That's what you call progress!

I agree. Klopp is a worldclas manager. Probably the best in the world, at least in my opinion.
But those are top players, make no mistake about it. Klopp’s sistem makes the most out of his players, but you need a certain kind of players to achieve that level.

The point is without Klopp developing those players and playing to their strengths they could've easily ended up in Spurs or United only to be forgotten 2-3 years later. It works both ways.

Players like Firmino and Salah could've easily ended up as another Depay if we bought them and had Ole coach them.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Lukaku like Fellaini did not fit our style of play. He had to go. If you want a defensive manager in to bore the shite out of everyone, like Conte or Simeone, than Lukaku is ideal for that style.

Hiring Ole made a lot of sense, as the rebuild was too big for most managers. And there was no one else available when we were hiring. It's all about timing. Liverpool were rejected by many a top manager before Klopp said yes to them.

There's no point sacking Ole until someone else is available. Pochettino is available in the summer and wants the job. I think we should get him but at the same time, Ole has been scouting for a year, and giving him 1 more transfer window might actually make sense to finish the daunting rebuild. His record in the transfer market has been the best since Fergue quit, despite being nothing incredible.

1) Lukaku didn't fit our style but Ighalo does? Ole said few days ago - "we needed different type of striker". Well, Lukaku was that striker ffs.
2) Ole is defensive manager. We sit back and wait for counters in many games. It is defensive style.
3) We needed to rebuild so guy who failed with Cardiff and was coach in Norway was the right choice?
4) How his transfers are the best? He bought defensive full back who is excellent for teams which play defensive football but if Ole wants to play attacking football as you say then why buying defensive full back? Daniel James? He is a good buy? He added more squad depth and can be useful for some games but good buy? Maguire is good but nothing special especially for 80mil and Bruno...lets see what happens. I like him as a player but will he be good for us? Lets wait and see. Falcao, Bailly or Depay were great signings also on first look but they failed here.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Absoutely @Robbie Boy, the likes of @mu4c_20le doesn't believe what he types, no fecking chance at all. He's had it explained to him multiple times that:

• Klopp took over mid-season with Liverpool in 12th - Klopp finished 8th
• Ole took over mid-season with United in 6th - Ole finished 6th.
• In his first full season, by game 25 Klopp had a win-rate 56% of and 49 points.
• In Ole's first season, by game 25 he has a win-rate of 36% and 35 points.

So Klopp took over a lower placed team and in similar time frame to Ole, he absolutely wipes the floor with him. As I say, @mu4c_20le has had this explained multiple times.

Still, won't stop him coming in saying shit like he did earlier today.

"Klopp and his coaching and tactics finished 8th in his first season, worse than his predecessor in the previous season. If he wasn't allowed to rebuild the team to his liking he would've walked.".

Imagine being that much of a twerp to come in here claiming Ole finished 6th in his first season, 4 places worse than his predecessor in the previous season.

Embarrassing.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Piss off, you know full well he took over with them mid season with them in 12th.

The point being discussed was what coaching can do for mediocre players, not to bash Klopp or big up Ole. Not every post or opinion is black or white. Klopp is a great coach but even he has his limits, and as been mentioned before, he needs a certain set of players to achieve his vision. Even he cannot turn Moreno, Benteke, or Joe Allen into class players like the ones we see today.

He’s spent best part of 200m which is more than anyone else in the league this season.

Even the gross spend of 80m is high in comparison to rest of the league, especially some of teams we are now competing with.

Comparing his spending with other clubs is hardly relevant when we aren't starting on a level playing field, is it? For example, I'm sure Pep spent much much less, does that mean he's overachieving? No, they were already well run as a club, with planning starting as early as 2009.

 

[Siorac]

We have an injury crisis and a threadbare squad. With Rashford, Pogba and Scott in the team, we tend to be a little more creative.

Not much, really. McTominay's last game was against Newcastle, and obviously Rashford was still fit then.

After that game we were 8th in the table, behind both Sheffield United and Wolves, with a 7-7-5 record.

And of course all three were very much fit and available for last season's run-in, during which we couldn't win a game to save our lives and barely scored goals.

 

[Roboc7]

Klopp and his coaching and tactics finished 8th in his first season, worse than his predecessor in the previous season. If he wasn't allowed to rebuild the team to his liking he would've walked.

How did Klopp’s first full season go?. I assume it was Liverpool’s worst for decades as that’s the equivalent for Ole now and an actual relevant comparison.

 

[Withnail]

I am all for Pochettino in the summer, but if Ole can land Grealish, Kalvin Phillips, Moussa Dembele and Tyrone Mings in the summer, then I'd be happy to see him given until Christmas to show if he can improve things.

This is fantasy land stuff.

We'll be lucky to get two first teamer's and a kid in the Summer.

Things probably would improve if the first team was improved but not enough to challenge the likes of Klopp.

An side led by Ole is not making 100 pts in a season and I'm not sure one led by Poch is either.

 

[Roboc7]

The point being discussed was what coaching can do for mediocre players, not to bash Klopp or big up Ole. Not every post or opinion is black or white. Klopp is a great coach but even he has his limits, and as been mentioned before, he needs a certain set of players to achieve his vision. Even he cannot turn Moreno, Benteke, or Joe Allen into class players like the ones we see today.

Comparing his spending with other clubs is hardly relevant when we aren't starting on a level playing field, is it? For example, I'm sure Pep spent much much less, does that mean he's overachieving? No, they were already well run as a club, with planning starting as early as 2009.

I get it, it’s not relevant because Ole has outspent everyone and we’re worse. I have no doubt the money spent would also be irrelevant if Ole was allowed to spend nothing.

 

[Enigma_87]

The point being discussed was what coaching can do for mediocre players, not to bash Klopp or big up Ole. Not every post or opinion is black or white. Klopp is a great coach but even he has his limits, and as been mentioned before, he needs a certain set of players to achieve his vision. Even he cannot turn Moreno, Benteke, or Joe Allen into class players like the ones we see today.

Yet you see players like Origi, Henderson, Joe Gomez, Lovren, Ox playing a lot better and being part of the team that is unbeatable this season, compared to when they were brought in.

People talk about him somehow turning Rashford into a world beater, whilst the reality is - discounting penalties, which Pogba took last year, his goal per minute ratio is pretty much the same as last season...
McT has progressed the way he was expected and as much as Rashford (who was given the chance by LvG), Jose introduced him to the first team.

You can claim Brandon and Mason, but the rest is a bit meh to give him full credit for.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I would disagree. He gave him one or two games here and there, after being tipped off by the youth managers that he was ready for bigger things.

But in general, Jose tended to stick with highly underperforming midfielders such as Matic/Herrera, while insisted to always play Pogba out of position, rather than give youth some game time. At Spurs he has given highly rated Troy Parrot 1 game since he took over. That doesn't mean he can take credit fir developing him because he played him 1 time.

It's just not true though. He started 13 games for Jose in the second half of the season we finished 2nd and was a regular before he got sacked last season. Ole was the one who waited two months into his tenure, until Matic got injured, before playing him.

 

[mu4c_20le]

How did Klopp’s first full season go?. I assume it was Liverpool’s worst for decades as that’s the equivalent for Ole now and an actual relevant comparison.

I don't follow Liverpool so I don't know how it compares with their performances in the last few decades, but I do know that he took over a mediocre squad with one or two stars (Coutinho). He got rid of a donkey that didn't fit his style (Benteke) and a few other deadwood like Joe Allen. Brought in a few good signings like Mane, who contributed 13 goals. Interesting fact: Rashford has already surpassed Mane in his first season, and we're only about 2/3 into the season. Martial is also in his best goal scoring season.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't follow Liverpool so I don't know how it compares with their performances in the last few decades, but I do know that he took over a mediocre squad with one or two stars (Coutinho). He got rid of a donkey that didn't fit his style (Benteke) and a few other deadwood like Joe Allen. Brought in a few good signings like Mane, who contributed 13 goals. Interesting fact: Rashford has already surpassed Mane in his first season, and we're only about 2/3 into the season. Martial is also in his best goal scoring season.

More interesting fact (Premier league):

Rashford 18/19 - 10 goals / 7 assists in 2.343 minutes - 0 penalties.
Rashford 19/20 - 14 goals / 4 assists in 1.882 minutes - 5 penalties.

18/19 - Goals/assists from open play - once every 137 minutes.
19/20 - Goals/assists from open play - once every 144 minutes.

Martial 18/19 - 10 goals / 3 assists in 1.623 minutes - 1 penalty.
Martial 19/20 - 8 goals / 3 assists in 1.548 minutes - 0 penalties.

18/19 - Goals/assists from open play - once every 135 minutes.
19/20 - Goals/assists from open play - once every 140 minutes.

Progress.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I don't follow Liverpool so I don't know how it compares with their performances in the last few decades, but I do know that he took over a mediocre squad with one or two stars (Coutinho). He got rid of a donkey that didn't fit his style (Benteke) and a few other deadwood like Joe Allen. Brought in a few good signings like Mane, who contributed 13 goals. Interesting fact: Rashford has already surpassed Mane in his first season, and we're only about 2/3 into the season. Martial is also in his best goal scoring season.

So he did some similar things to Ole with his squad yet somehow managed miles better results and didn't need another year in order to prove he was going places. All that whilst not having a winger that scored as many as Rashford.

 

[dwd]

What will the Ole in crowd think if Jose pips Ole to Champions League football this season? It would be hilariously depressing really.

 

[Mainoldo]

3 years is a long time in football.
So CL winners, soon to be PL champions with one of the most dominant campaign in history, but none of them’s worldclass cause you didn’t give a shit about them 3 years ago?





I agree. Klopp is a worldclas manager. Probably the best in the world, at least in my opinion.
But those are top players, make no mistake about it. Klopp’s sistem makes the most out of his players, but you need a certain kind of players to achieve that level.

Either your ignorant or dumb. Still trying to figure it out.

But either way you have no right to call Pierera or half of our players rubbish because in 3 years time they could also now be considered as good as Liverpool players. Going off your argument.

 

[dellboyy]

It’s not about world class. Give Roy Hodgson the same signings that Klopp has had and Liverpool won’t be the best team in Europe. Because it’s Hodgson fans will blame Hodgson. If Gerrard was Manager and had those signings the fans wound blame the board, except for Allison and VVD none of pools signings were elite. Klopp gets the best out out them and makes them world class.

You need both. As i said earlier in the thread, i don't think Ole is the best manager around or is the manager to take us back to the title. My point was that i don't think any manager could win the title atm with our squad, so it's pointless switching for the sake of it. At the moment we need to rebuild, and i don't think anyone could do a better job atm with the recruitment policy/personnel we have than Ole.

 

[Robbie Boy]

There is no actual defence left for Ole. Constantly debating with cult like posters on here is really a waste of everyone's time.

 

[mu4c_20le]

So he did some similar things to Ole with his squad yet somehow managed miles better results and didn't need another year in order to prove he was going places. All that whilst not having a winger that scored as many as Rashford.

Steady, he finished 4th, 7 points from 6th. One big difference between his squad and Ole, is that he had Coutinho who chipped in 13 goals. Our Pogba has been out injured. If he was fit and firing like he was last season, it'd be a different story. Klopp also had some of his midfielders contribute, Wijnaldum with 6, Can 5, Lallana 8. Our equivalent: Mata 0, Lingard 0, Fred 0, James 3, Greenwood 4. So, hardly miles better results, especially considering how we've trashed a couple of big teams already this season. The results and performances were always going to be inconsistent with this young squad.

 

[Enigma_87]

You need both. As i said earlier in the thread, i don't think Ole is the best manager around or is the manager to take us back to the title. My point was that i don't think any manager could win the title atm with our squad, so it's pointless switching for the sake of it. At the moment we need to rebuild, and i don't think anyone could do a better job atm with the recruitment policy/personnel we have than Ole.

Why would anyone want that?

Our expectations are top 4 finish, not winning the title. And by no means and considering the resources Ole had/has this is unrealistic challenge for a top coach.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Steady, he finished 4th, 7 points from 6th.

He had a 56% win percentage after 25 games, Ole has 36%.

So yeah, miles better however you try to spin it.

And if you really wanna go down the line of ”7 points from 6th”.... well, we’re just 5 points from 14th.

 

[RedBanker]

There is no actual defence left for Ole. Constantly debating with cult like posters on here is really a waste of everyone's time.

It's no cult. It's oppo fans, WUMs, and relatives of Ole. No point in arguing with them. Make good use of the ignore button.

 

[Bestietom]

Yes I would like to see Ole finish the rebuild as he has done well with the players he brought in so far and got rid of most of the deadwood. But if he doesn't get us into the Champions League by whatever way, he can expect the sack like anyone else.

 

[red4ever 79]

Yes I would like to see Ole finish the rebuild as he has done well with the players he brought in so far and got rid of most of the deadwood. But if he doesn't get us into the Champions League by whatever way, he can expect the sack like anyone else.

When you say got rid of most of the deadwood you do realize that Sanchez, Smalling and Rojo will be back in around 5 months.

So he got rid of
Lukaku - Player wanted to leave, wasnt replaced
Herrera - Player wanted to leave, wasnt replaced
Fellaini - Ole wanted him to leave, wasnt replaced
Young - Player wanted to leave, wasnt replaced
Darmian - Who?

The real deadwood is still there stinking up the joint. Jones, Lingard, Mata and Perriera

 

[Judas]

To me the Ole "rebuild" ends in the summer. He's been given a season of transition, binning off a few players and bringing in some new ones, done his best that he can do with this squad, goodbye. Thats as far as he should be allowed to go, any further is destructive.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Let's see.. the defense cards supporting to keep Ole:

1) Recruitment/player profile policy - transfers in and youth (popular)
- okay tbf.

2) Clearing out deadwood (popular)
- fine but not completely like he still kept on trusting other obvious deadwoods eg. Lingard because of his "player profile" policy being youth or some bs.

3) "Gets United" (doesn't seem a popular card lately)
- United play rubbish boring football?! with no good system, barely any proper plannings when attacking?
And when we're losing, it's fine, just let things be? Repeat same decisions makings next game?
That's United?! News to me.

Anything else?

*****

For (1), surely there's a manager with similar recruitment/player profile policy yet at the same time excel in instilling a good system of fun attacking football. Why afraid of hiring of another.. make calculated risks and proper planning... oh wait understandably we don't really have a good football decision maker at the top.

I'm fine with Ole if there is clear improvements to the football. Football should be the priority. There is not.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's no cult. It's oppo fans, WUMs, and relatives of Ole. No point in arguing with them. Make good use of the ignore button.

Good point.

In fact, any poster who tries to invoke Sir Alex or Klopp in defence of Ole, is gonna be instantly ignored. Every single last one of them knows their arguments are bullshit and you just end up going in circles with them constantly moving the bar.

"Klopp took time and finished 8th, you lot would've sacked him" - Erm, Klopp improved their position from 12th 8th in his first part season.

"Klopp needed time, he didn't build a title winning squad straight away" - Erm no, but he had a miles better first full season than Ole in every single aspect.

"Yeah but Klopp had Countino, Pogba has been injured" - Arrrgghhhhhhhhh

Yup, defo ignore from now on.

 

[Gehrman]

Yes I would like to see Ole finish the rebuild as he has done well with the players he brought in so far and got rid of most of the deadwood. But if he doesn't get us into the Champions League by whatever way, he can expect the sack like anyone else.

We spent most of our budget on defenders for world records fee's and concede more or less the same as last season. We can't defend a set piece to save our lives.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Yes I would like to see Ole finish the rebuild as he has done well with the players he brought in so far and got rid of most of the deadwood. But if he doesn't get us into the Champions League by whatever way, he can expect the sack like anyone else.

Our record this season is 9-8-8, that is pathetic. It's a midtable record. How can any of you still want this clown?

The lowering of expectations has been a masterstroke by the Glazers. Our fans have capitulated and are now accepting something that was unimaginable just a few years ago.

 

[Gehrman]

Good point.

In fact, any poster who tries to invoke Sir Alex or Klopp in defence of Ole, is gonna be instantly ignored. Every single last one of them knows their arguments are bullshit and you just end up going in circles with them constantly moving the bar.

"Klopp took time and finished 8th, you lot would've sacked him" - Erm, Klopp improved their position from 12th 8th in his first part season.

"Klopp needed time, he didn't build a title winning squad straight away" - Erm no, but he had a miles better first full season than Ole in every single aspect.

"Yeah but Klopp had Countino, Pogba has been injured" - Arrrgghhhhhhhhh

Yup, defo ignore from now on.

Genieunly anyone invoking Klopp or Fergie is off their rockers. Before Ole was hired, he wouldn't feature in any top 50 managers in the world, i'm not even sure he would feature in a top 100. I'm not even sure he would now.

 

[Bestietom]

We have been through all this with Moyes, LVG, and Mourinho, and now Ole. If Poch or whoever comes in this summer we will be saying the same things next year.
No matter who comes here we have to get rid of the deadwood ( yes but replaced ) and bring in Players that want to play for the badge. This will take time unless the Glazers decide they want it done quickly, and are prepared to put the money up for transfers of top players. This is what most fans are wanting but unfortunately won't get.
Eventually we will have to accept a manager that is here for the long term if we want a rebuild, otherwise we will end up like Leeds or even Liverpool and take 30 years before we win another League title.

 

[Siorac]

He had a 56% win percentage after 25 games, Ole has 36%.

So yeah, miles better however you try to spin it.

And if you really wanna go down the line of ”7 points from 6th”.... well, we’re just 5 points from 14th.

Yeah the Klopp comparisons are insane, regardless of what you think about Solskjaer.

He got 76 points in his first full season with Liverpool. Our theoretical maximum this season is 74. If we win our last 13 games in a row. That's about as likely as United winning the Champions League this season.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Things Ole gets praised for:

Recruitment : Got a defensive full back to play attacking football. Got a slow CB to pair with another slow one to play a highline. Got a left winger to play him on the right. Finally got an AM after suffering for months with Lingard and Pereira. All bar James were very obvious signings. Tottenham under Pochettino wanted AWB and Bruno. Mourinho wanted Maguire. I've seen these three players in a fantasy staying 11 in the transfer forum.

Playing Youth : The only Youth he has really promoted are Williams and Greenwood. But does he really have a choice? Williams competition is an injury prone left back. Greewoods competition is both an underperforming Martial and Daniel James. Where was Gomes, Garner, Levitt, Chong, etc in the starting line up against a bottom table league 2 side.

Clearing deadwood : This is a very stupid thing to be praised for because every manager sells the players they don't want. Anyways what deadwood? Lukaku and Herrera were not deadwood but wanted to leave which is why they were sold. Sanchez, Rojo and Smalling are all still coming back. Ashley is a deadwood that was sold but Ole wanted to keep. Darmian am pretty sure people forgot was still in the team but was a deadwood nonetheless

Improving players : This one he should get credit for I think. I don't want to be too harsh on the guy and say Fred Rashford and Mctominay improve because they just played more.

Plans for the future : I mean anybody could do this if they wanted.

Tactics : He won Guardiola, Tuchel, Mourinho. Deserves credit for that too but that's we're it ends for him

 

[Swordsman]

How did Klopp’s first full season go?. I assume it was Liverpool’s worst for decades as that’s the equivalent for Ole now and an actual relevant comparison.

worst for decades ? far from it. Klopp 1st full season is way better than Ole. he managed to get 22 wins.. Ole got like 9 now. I seriously doubt ole can match Klopp 22 wins for the 1st full season. United has to win the remaining 13 matches straight.

 

[dellboyy]

Why would anyone want that?

Our expectations are top 4 finish, not winning the title. And by no means and considering the resources Ole had/has this is unrealistic challenge for a top coach.

It wasn't an expectation for now, it was simply an example of what we'll be wanting to achieve. Our end goal is the title, and sooner rather than later.

 

[Roboc7]

Steady, he finished 4th, 7 points from 6th. One big difference between his squad and Ole, is that he had Coutinho who chipped in 13 goals. Our Pogba has been out injured. If he was fit and firing like he was last season, it'd be a different story. Klopp also had some of his midfielders contribute, Wijnaldum with 6, Can 5, Lallana 8. Our equivalent: Mata 0, Lingard 0, Fred 0, James 3, Greenwood 4. So, hardly miles better results, especially considering how we've trashed a couple of big teams already this season. The results and performances were always going to be inconsistent with this young squad.

7 points from 6th, I assume it was quite a low points tally though much like Ole as the results were hardly better.

We’ve been as consistent as we should expect. If we can sit back, be the underdogs, play on the counter and don’t concede first we do ok. In w wry other scenario we aren’t very good, Ole has consistently locked down.