US Soccer: No equal pay “because men have more responsibility”

shahzy

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Thats stupid. If thats the reason they arent getting the same pay then thats complete Sexism.
What i and every sane person assumed was the basis of pay is due to sheer economics. Whoever brings in the money, gets the lion share of the money. Which imo is NOT sexism. However if that is NOT the reason for not getting equal pay then thats not acceptable in my book. And this is coming from a guy who has 0 interest in womens sport or the whole equality movement. I base my opinion entirely on economics of it all
 

MackRobinson

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In Rainbows

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You didn't answer the question. Do you think a WNBA player deserves to get paid as much as LeBron James? Should the United women's team be paid as much as the men's United team? This isn't the same where a woman engineer is getting paid less for the same role as a man engineer where their product (both contribute to same profits) is the same, yet there is pay discrepancy.
 

Carolina Red

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You didn't answer the question. Do you think a WNBA player deserves to get paid as much as LeBron James? Should the United women's team be paid as much as the men's United team? This isn't the same where a woman engineer is getting paid less for the same role as a man engineer where their product (both contribute to same profits) is the same, yet there is pay discrepancy.
I wouldn’t have a problem with equal pay between the NBA and WNBA, the same as I don’t have a problem with Wimbledon paying out equal purses to male and female competitors.
 

Carolina Red

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That says they got a pay rise (which is great), not that they now earn the same as men.

A quick Google seems to state that the difference is now $130k per annum vs $7.7m per annum (less than 2%).
Yeah I know. He just mentioned the WNBA, and I knew the current USWNT issue tied into the WNBA’s new CBA.
 

finneh

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Yeah I know. He just mentioned the WNBA, and I knew the current USWNT issue tied into the WNBA’s new CBA.
But you'd accept that paying the WNBA players the same as the NBA players would be ludicrous?
 

E-mal

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What does FIFA awarded prize money got to do with an athlete’s “responsibility”?

They’re both teams representing the United States in an international tournament. They have equal responsibility.
No they don't, there's more at stake if the prize is bigger.
 

SmallCaine

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That's completely irrelevant. We are talking about the US national teams.
Isn't one of their complaint that their FA paid more to the men for losing in R16 than they did to women for winning?

The women deserve to be paid equally for non wc matches but they really can't argue about what the US FA pays them for wc as that money comes directly from fifa who clearly earn more from men than they do from women
 

SirAnderson

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Sadly we advocating equality for the sake of it. It eventually affects the quality of whatever it is we pushed equality for.
I'm all for equality, but I come from a country where they are laws in place to put one in a job primarily because of the colour of your skin and the fact of competence is secondary. The obvious result is a drop in quality.
Ability should definitely be considered when it comes to pay. Imagine a league 2 team earning the same as the PL teams? Don't the do the same job??? Yes but it still does not make sense, because they are paid "based" (we all know sports players get paid way too much, so based on the warped-ness already in existence.) on their ability as well as the ability to entertain. (More on entertainment in the last paragraph. If and when they manage to work their way up to the highest level, they earn the right to earn what the highest level earn. Is women soccer on the same level as men's? Could it ever been? Physiology would say no, hence why sport is "split" by gender. The gap that makes equal pay possible then is not based on gender but on entertainment. (for lack of a better word/phrase)

In Tennis, there is a big pull for watching women, different to the pull of watching them in football. That should matter. Unfortunately its entertainment, and at the end of the day, people pay more for what's more entertaining, it's not the same. The reason I'm happy with tennis equal pay is because, at least for me, I feel equally entertained watching some of the female matches as I am by watching some of the male matches.

Anyway, its always going to be a challenge, and maybe the thing to do is make equal pay for everyone, but for me it will almost always be not because its quality, but for equality.
 

Prometheus

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Generating more revenue than the US Men, selling more shirts, progressing further (in fact winning it)... all means yes, they deserve equal pay obviously.

The last four pages is an amazing example of how to double down when you're wrong. In fact, I may go and get a pen and paper to take actual notes. :eek:
 
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Feed Me

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I don’t understand how anyone can say with a straight face that women footballers should receive pay parity with men. Anyone with a set of functioning eyes can see the gulf between the respective products.
 

Rish Sawhney

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Honestly parity pay in sports to me is a similar argument as parity pay in modeling. Here in regards to USSF, if the pay to the USMNT and USWNT is coming directly from USSF revenues which the USWNT generate more of they should get more. If it comes out of money they receive for the global game via FIFA and FIFA pay more for the men's game, the men should get more. The idea of parity is frankly ridiculous unless of course they're on the field against one another.

But this is a topic strife with political maneuvering so its quite toxic to even talk about.
 
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Drainy

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I don’t understand how anyone can say with a straight face that women footballers should receive pay parity with men. Anyone with a set of functioning eyes can see the gulf between the respective products.
There is an argument for the US national team, if fairness.

The 'responsibility' line is clearly a cherry picked press briefing to make the defence look bad and pressure a settlement and we'd need to see the full document to understand the whole argument, however on the face of it there should be limited parity in this case.

That said, in the context of England it would be pretty clear that there is a different responsibility level at the World Cup. Just compare how the press and public react to mistakes that cost vital goals. I don't think that is the case in the US though.
 

Kostov

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That's a stupid excuse for the matter, but why is this even a thing? I barely ever watch women football because of the evident lack of quality.
 

Feed Me

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There is an argument for the US national team, if fairness.

The 'responsibility' line is clearly a cherry picked press briefing to make the defence look bad and pressure a settlement and we'd need to see the full document to understand the whole argument, however on the face of it there should be limited parity in this case.

That said, in the context of England it would be pretty clear that there is a different responsibility level at the World Cup. Just compare how the press and public react to mistakes that cost vital goals. I don't think that is the case in the US though.
The “responsibility” argument is just pathetic. As ever, faced with a tricky situation, they have tried to spin up an elaborate excuse instead of just telling the truth.

I won’t claim to know the ins and outs of this particular case – or the legal implications for that matter.

But in terms of the broad men versus women in football debate, it’s clear that the respective products are night and day.

The men play at a greater physical intensity and are more technically proficient, they generate bigger crowds, more viewers on TV, create bigger pull for brands and sponsors, and so forth.

Other than some misguided sense of political correctness, I don’t see how anyone could make a case for equal pay in this context.
 

Drainy

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The “responsibility” argument is just pathetic. As ever, faced with a tricky situation, they have tried to spin up an elaborate excuse instead of just telling the truth.

I won’t claim to know the ins and outs of this particular case – or the legal implications for that matter.
That is just how legal arguments work. If you don't make the argument, you are conceding the point to the other side.

It's not politically savvy to say (it's red meat for online reactionaries) but if you want to argue it in front of a judge you best include it in your arguments!
 

Cassidy

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The “responsibility” argument is just pathetic. As ever, faced with a tricky situation, they have tried to spin up an elaborate excuse instead of just telling the truth.

I won’t claim to know the ins and outs of this particular case – or the legal implications for that matter.

But in terms of the broad men versus women in football debate, it’s clear that the respective products are night and day.

The men play at a greater physical intensity and are more technically proficient, they generate bigger crowds, more viewers on TV, create bigger pull for brands and sponsors, and so forth.

Other than some misguided sense of political correctness, I don’t see how anyone could make a case for equal pay in this context.
For the US national team this is wrong
 

limerickcitykid

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The women have already been offered the exact same deal as the men and have turned it down. Why? Because they are currently getting paid more and getting their NWSL wages subsidized by the USSF along with being provided medical care which the men don't get. Their whole issue is FIFA payments which have nothing to do with USSF.
 

Atze-Peng

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The problem is FIFA. The women are demanding an equal share of WC winnings that the men get, not more cash from the USSF.



So the issue here is that the men earned so much from the 2010 and 2014 WCs, but that prize money is dictated by FIFA. And women's football doesn't earn FIFA anywhere near as much.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...-soccer-players-really-earning-less-than-men/

The US Men's NT has benefitted greatly from the fact that men's football is so dominant across the globe. Do they deserve higher WC bonuses based on the fact that the men's WC brings in far more revenue, even though the US NT is shit? I dunno. I suspect they will probably win their case though. And not just because of the moronic argument put forward in the OP. Women's tennis was granted equal pay despite playing less and generating less revenue.

Maybe they should just merge the men and women's games and be done with it.
Because

1. Mens football internationally is bigger. Doesn't matter if the US men profit from it or not. It generates way more money which also effects the mens salary.
2. That also includes sponsorship, TV licences, etc.
3. While the National team generates more interest, the league definitely generates more interest for the men when looking at the viewership data - which also correlates with how much wages the football association can pay.
4. It is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest to just use the national viewership for the national teams that compete internationally.

Like it or not. Women soccer just doesn't generate enough revenue internationally. Tough luck.


P.S. Also Buzzfeeds news but not linking the full length decision (I assume it's a public decsion)?
 

Tiber

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My issue with equal pay in football is generally that the mens game just brings in so much more income. But in the US this could well be different, the womens team is a lot better and sells out stadiums - maybe the women should be earning more than the men
 

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I notice that women tend to not roll around like little bitches when someone touches them on the pitch unlike many “men” who play. That alone deserves a pay raise.
 

Florida Man

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I love how people who have literally no stake in the money argue against equal pay like they have stake in the money.
 

redmanc

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I've no interest in watching any variation of womens sport and not because i am sexist but because quite frankly its shit to watch, i don't care if men get paid more. Equal pay in every day jobs however should be a thing.
 

Tom Cato

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This won’t go over well...
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...argued-women-shouldnt-be-paid-the-same-as-men

“The job of a [men’s national team player] carries more responsibility within US Soccer than the job of a [women’s national team] player,” US Soccer argued in a court filing.

Embroiled in a lawsuit over equal pay, lawyers for the US Women’s National Team (USWNT) employer argued in a court filing Monday that women athletes are less skilled and work less demanding jobs than their male counterparts.

The filing was part of US Soccer’s attempt to prove that it has not discriminated against the World Cup champion team based on their gender.
Does the US have no laws governning the right to equal pay like civilized nations do? Edit: Yes they do. The equal pay act of 1963 signed by John F. Kennedy: "The Equal Pay Act of 1963 is a United States labor law amending the Fair Labor Standards Act, aimed at abolishing wage disparity based on sex (see Gender pay gap). It was signed into law on June 10, 1963, by John F. Kennedy as part of his New Frontier Program."

The US football assosciation is, (I assume) funded by the government allocations in the yearly budget. Men and women representing their country through public funding should always have the same pay and bonuses from those funds. The national assosciations that receive sponsorships, of which I assume all of them do, should have the right to distribute by market value, as they are private sector funds.

In civil sports, the market dictates salaries so no one is seriously disputing that. But to not have equal pay through national representation is somewhat of an absurdity.

We have the same in Norway due to the vast difference in interest between the sports, Women's and Men's Skii jump for example. But that stems primarily through sponsorships. Any pay allocated from public funding is I believe, the same.

This is a nice blast from the 1930's by the US soccer lawyer. Maybe they can offer the womens team a stove with a built in footbath while they are at it as a performance bonus. Absolutely revolting.

Final Edit: So i did myself some due dilligence and learned a few things:

US Soccer is NOT publicly funded, but are privately owned organizations, but rather owned by MLS teams or private investors. The assosciations pay the respective players that represent the organization.

So US Soccer's entire argument should rest on revenue generated for their argument about disparities for salary and bonus payouts. Not wether men or women work harder. It's about as clever as saying a Women's 100m sprinter is not as good as Usain Bolt. The physical attributes are completely different from nature, that is the entire reason we have a Men's and Women's division.

I reckon that US Soccer is making a defense as to not be in breach of Equal Pay and Compensation Discrimination.

The Equal Pay Act requires that men and women be given equal pay for equal work in the same establishment.
The jobs need not be identical, but they must be substantially equal. It is job content, not job titles, that determines whether jobs are substantially equal. Specifically, the EPA provides that employers may not pay unequal wages to men and women who perform jobs that require substantially equal skill, effort and responsibility, and that are performed under similar working conditions within the same establishment. Each of these factors is summarized below:

Skill
Measured by factors such as the experience, ability, education, and training required to perform the job. The issue is what skills are required for the job, not what skills the individual employees may have. For example, two bookkeeping jobs could be considered equal under the EPA even if one of the job holders has a master's degree in physics, since that degree would not be required for the job.

Effort
The amount of physical or mental exertion needed to perform the job. For example, suppose that men and women work side by side on a line assembling machine parts. The person at the end of the line must also lift the assembled product as he or she completes the work and place it on a board. That job requires more effort than the other assembly line jobs if the extra effort of lifting the assembled product off the line is substantial and is a regular part of the job. As a result, it would not be a violation to pay that person more, regardless of whether the job is held by a man or a woman.

Responsibility
The degree of accountability required in performing the job. For example, a salesperson who is delegated the duty of determining whether to accept customers' personal checks has more responsibility than other salespeople. On the other hand, a minor difference in responsibility, such as turning out the lights at the end of the day, would not justify a pay differential.

Working Conditions
This encompasses two factors: physical surroundings like temperature, fumes, and ventilation; and hazards.

Establishment
The prohibition against compensation discrimination under the EPA applies only to jobs within an establishment. An establishment is a distinct physical place of business rather than an entire business or enterprise consisting of several places of business. In some circumstances, physically separate places of business may be treated as one establishment. For example, if a central administrative unit hires employees, sets their compensation, and assigns them to separate work locations, the separate work sites can be considered part of one establishment.

So in short. US Soccer is arguing that women's phyiscal attributes should prevent them from receiving equal pay. In other news, they get out of bed, look in the mirror and think: "How can I be more like Satan today?"
 
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Tom Cato

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Men's football and women's football is basically a different sport for all intensive purposes.
They both play football. I believe you are trying to make a reasonable point, while making the case that women are lesser. I'd rethink this sentence long and hard, and perhaps your general attitude?
 

Florida Man

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Does the US have no laws governning the right to equal pay like civilized nations do?

The US football assosciation is, (I assume) funded by the government allocations in the yearly budget. Men and women representing their country through public funding should always have the same pay and bonuses from those funds. The national assosciations that receive sponsorships, of which I assume all of them do, should have the right to distribute by market value, as they are private sector funds.

In civil sports, the market dictates salaries so no one is seriously disputing that. But to not have equal pay through national representation is somewhat of an absurdity.

We have the same in Norway due to the vast difference in interest between the sports, Women's and Men's Skii jumpf or example. But that stems primarily through sponsorships. Any pay allocated from public funding is I believe, the same.

This is a nice blast from the 1930's by the US soccer lawyer. Maybe they can offer the womens team a stove with a built in footbath while they are at it as a performance bonus. Absolutely revolting.
To answer your first question, that’s a hard no. And the USSF is pretty terribly ran too just on the men’s side alone. The whole system is catered to rich kids from the suburbs to start.
 

Spiersey

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What does FIFA awarded prize money got to do with an athlete’s “responsibility”?

They’re both teams representing the United States in an international tournament. They have equal responsibility.
I assume you think the u13s and u17s should be paid the same as the mens also then? After all, the bolded can be applied to that scenario.
 

Berbaclass

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They both play football. I believe you are trying to make a reasonable point, while making the case that women are lesser. I'd rethink this sentence long and hard, and perhaps your general attitude?
Where have I stated that women are in any way lesser than men? I have in fact stated women should get more money if you had actually ready the thread so bore off with your condescending tone.
 

Tom Cato

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Where have I stated that women are in any way lesser than men? I have in fact stated women should get more money if you had actually ready the thread so bore off with your condescending tone.
Saying that they are essentially not playing the same sport is the condescending tone friend.