Eight games away from another disastrous season under Ole
- Thread starter padzilla
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Yeah, just ignore the part where they're better coached and that's why they can get goals more consistently from their midfield and defence.
If you get people to pick a best combined 11 of us and Leicester, it'll be dominated by our players despite us scoring less and conceding more than them this season. Coaching is an actual thing and not something I'm making up. All Ole does is put out the same lineup despite getting the same bad results and hoping that something different would happen, it's why we go on such bad runs when we have players out. He's just not that good at coaching.
You might want to take a look at the last four teams put out by Mourinho to refresh your memory:
Opposition:
Liverpool
Valencia
Arsenal
Fulham
The following are gone and only Jesse is likely to make Ole's bench. It seems like a lot of changes to me.
Appearances:
Lukaku: 3 (1)
Lingard: 3 (1)
Herrera: 3
Dalot: 3
Young: 2 (1)
Rojo: 2 (1)
Darmian: 2
Fellaini: 1 (2)
That isn't whataboutery.
I was using an example to demonstrate the fallacy of his logic.
I think LVG would prove you wrong on that, the majority of fans hated his football..
He was the one to bring through young players and try an entertain with possession football, fans hated it!
You and me both mate. I'm very excited to have United back, but also wary of knowing people will post these types of threads again every time we dont win 5-0.
I take it that You thought we would be challenging at the beginning of this season then?
Considering at the beginning of this season we were smack bang in the middle of a re-build, I don’t care if people think we weren’t or if they think that’s an excuse for Ole, we were and still are.
We were never guaranteed to challenge this year. I’m sorry if the time it’s taking is too much for you but it is progress that we are making, how slow is open to interpretation.
Imagine having the team slowly coming together as it is right now, Pogba and Bruno exciting us with what they are capable of, Sancho hopefully arriving in this transfer window, 12 games unbeaten streak, a harmonious squad who buy into the manager and his project, youth coming through - and we have people willing to risk all that progress because they are embarrassed to be mentioned with the likes of Sheffield.
What possible good would it do to swap managers right now? What cast iron guarantees can you or anybody provide that it would be better and would not in fact hamper the progress we’ve made in all those areas? I’m all ears.
I want guarantees that by swapping the manager that has made positive improvements for another ‘big name manager’ will guarantee that we don’t see another 6 years of feckin tripe.
Squad building and man management is by far the most important thing imo. Coaching is way over rated on this forum; there aren't many secrets in this area any more at top level football. The better players on a team will win most often then not; that is what Pep has had his whole career btw.
Ive said this on a few previous threads this season that ole did not deserve the job and still isn’t the right man but how many threads do we need to bash his managerial abilities or lack of. This is becoming a bit of witch hunt now. The article isn’t exactly raising points we were unaware of two months before the break for covid and these points were raised then. Let’s wait until the end of the season for the next what to do with ole thread please.....
Would help if we weren't on course for another pathetic season scoring less than 60 league goals. And that's despite Solskjaer's constant stream of "United way" propaganda.
Disastrous is being without your two highest paid players for the entire season, one through injury the other basically loaned out for free. Take any club's two best players away and lets see how their season goes.
How about you take the best players available for us last season and compare it with this season.
Macguire's only a slight upgrade over Smalling.
Fred and Herrera are about equal.
AWB and Bruno is a huge upgrade.
We've a massive downgrade upfront because Lukaku gets goals against the supposed smaller teams that we always struggle to break down.
Apart from Lukaku, nobody really got us much money as well. We've basically just taken 2 steps front and 1 step back.
Dumb article. Context to everything is important, as is progression of a team through a season. We have so clearly progressed in Bruno came back, made up for the absence of Pogba all season and on a personnel basis we are as strong as we've been since Sir Alex retired now IMO. Now Pogba finally back too and you'll see the performances take yet another level, having both him and Bruno in midfield together. Individual progression of young players has also been very encouraging.
When you're rebuilding, it really isn't all about the results. 2017/18 we had a lot of points and finished 2nd and reached and FA Cup final, yet there were very few signs that we were headed in the right direction and the majority of people predicted a collapse (which came). The signs now are that next season will be a big step up in terms of consistency and performances, and that's what you look for. Enough to beat City/Liverpool to the title? Unlikely, but definitely the right direction to be the "best of the rest" with a view to jump ahead of them when they drop their level (managerial changes, aging players or whatever).
When you're rebuilding, it really isn't all about the results. 2017/18 we had a lot of points and finished 2nd and reached and FA Cup final, yet there were very few signs that we were headed in the right direction and the majority of people predicted a collapse (which came). The signs now are that next season will be a big step up in terms of consistency and performances, and that's what you look for. Enough to beat City/Liverpool to the title? Unlikely, but definitely the right direction to be the "best of the rest" with a view to jump ahead of them when they drop their level (managerial changes, aging players or whatever).
Let's be serious, losing the Sanchez that we've seen for us so far isn't a loss at all.
LVG didn't give a shit about entertaining, he was all about cutting out mistakes and making everyone sleep from watching us play and sneak a goal while everyone's asleep.
Ole needs to go. Unfortunately, the standards are now super low and he’s a club legend so he’ll likely stay.
We could be 7th again by 10:30pm tonight. I really don't see how that's progress. We've only won 4 league matches from 9 since the turn of the year.
I am still firmly of the believe we should have given it to Poch. However, that's water under the bridge. I will see where we are after the next eight games.
Yes but those wages could've gone to a top player, or 2-3 really good ones. His hands are tied when he took over the club at its lowest ebb, it was an unmotivated, unbalanced, overpaid squad. Not defending the results and performances but my impression is that his United tenure as coach has been handicapped from the start.
Is that what you meant by change? The first team is practically unrecognisable from the one under Mourinho.
If you're going to argue that a manager getting rid of players he doesn't fancy and bringing in ones he does isn't change, well then we have a major difference of opinion on the meaning of the word
I didn’t say I thought we would be challenging for the title this season but after £150m spent in the summer I think a lot of fans were expecting to be comfortably in the top 4.
I also didn’t say I’d sack Ole right now and even said I think he will be manager next season whatever happens.
But I don’t think he is the manager to take us to a title or a UCL. As for saying how do you know another manager wouldn’t do better? Well how do you know they wouldn’t?
Ole has done a lot of good work and laid down a fairly solid base for whoever comes after him, I just don’t see him being our man to take us to the top again.
Don’t really want to knock him cause he’s done well, that’s why I didn’t want to turn this into an Ole inn/Ole out thread..
Seriously ?
No winning 2 PL's and Van Persie has been.
talk about rewriting the past. Mourinho's sit back and don't do anything until we concede was more entertaining.I doubt Ole, but this isn’t the time to be making this thread and analyzing the performance. We are past the point where any changes to management would be made and he now has a chance to take on a run of games with a full squad.
He has a lot to prove, but now is the time to get behind the team and see if we can put a run together.
I think he has had a poor season and I feel he needs to get top 4 or win the Europa to prove he is capable, but let’s give him a chance to do that now, no matter how you feel about him.
We can have this discussion at the end of the season, but if we can go on a run now, it would be far more enjoyable than any long winded analysis, especially in times like these.
Lets put away the Ole In/Ole Out for now and see if we can have a really positive and enjoyable end to the season.
He has a lot to prove, but now is the time to get behind the team and see if we can put a run together.
I think he has had a poor season and I feel he needs to get top 4 or win the Europa to prove he is capable, but let’s give him a chance to do that now, no matter how you feel about him.
We can have this discussion at the end of the season, but if we can go on a run now, it would be far more enjoyable than any long winded analysis, especially in times like these.
Lets put away the Ole In/Ole Out for now and see if we can have a really positive and enjoyable end to the season.
I'm with you mate. Glad I'm not the only one. I find it staggering that we have this thread when there are multiple Ole-Out or Ole-Bashing threads already, it's not like we played horrendously bad against Spurs, if it were not for a freak error we would have won the game and we comfortably bossed them for the most part away from home.
It's like people can't remember the boredom of LVG sideways passing or the bus parking tactics and negativity that was Mourinho. Need a break from this place to be honest.
So the style of play does matter then?
And my point is that the overall quality of the team is just a minor improvement over last year.Is that what you meant by change? The first team is practically unrecognisable from the one under Mourinho.
If you're going to argue that a manager getting rid of players he doesn't fancy and bringing in ones he does isn't change, well then we have a major difference of opinion on the meaning of the word
I’m not saying it was entertaining but that’s what he was trying to do..
We "comfortably bossed" them and couldn't score a goal without a penalty. That's the problem. It's been a problem for years now and nothings changed. We comfortably bossed Burnley at home in January and lost 2-0.
And he failed miserably in his try. That's the point, right ?
I think there are 3 pillars to what I would expect from a high-quality manager:
Obviously Ole has made it clear he expects us to be a counter-attacking team that breaks with pace, but beyond that it's unclear if he actually has a system / playing philosophy beyond platitudes to the Manchester United way under Fergie. I love the man, but would love to see more to convince in the long term. Particularly since a lot of special coaches are available now (Poch, Nagelsmann), that might not be the case in a year or two similar to how we missed the Klopp/Pep boat and settled for LVG.
- Delivering good results: Results haven't been great. Simple as that. There's an argument around Injuries and buying Bruno earlier, but the fact is we've lost/drawn a fair number of games against smaller teams that we really should have the quality to put away. However, if he gets CL football (and potentially a cup in addition), that's a successful transition season for me
- Developing a high-quality squad: Ole has done really well on this count and who ever takes up this squad, will have a strong foundation to build upon. This wasn't an easy task, and he's generally bought and sold very well with a long-term focus. He's also done a great job of giving chances to our academy players, some of whom have established themselves as first-team squad members
- Instituting a clear playing philosophy: This is where my main doubts lie with Ole. Look at the top managers in the world; they all have a clear playing philosophy that's actively innovating on how tactics can be applied. For Pep it's a mix of positioning fluidity and tactical fouling/pressing, for Klopp it's vertical transitions and gegenpressing, for Poch it's pressing and physicality in a counter-attacking focus and for Conte it's congesting midfield and using the spare CB to direct wing overloads. That's why someone like Nagelsmann is interesting, with his push to integrate perspective on "individual plays" from Rugby and understand how that can be applied in terms of footballing tactics. In general, he seems better at negating the other team's tactics (e.g., City, Liverpool, Chelsea) versus proactively imprinting his style of play. That's not to say it's the be-all and end-all, but it's definitely something he needs to show more of.
Obviously Ole has made it clear he expects us to be a counter-attacking team that breaks with pace, but beyond that it's unclear if he actually has a system / playing philosophy beyond platitudes to the Manchester United way under Fergie. I love the man, but would love to see more to convince in the long term. Particularly since a lot of special coaches are available now (Poch, Nagelsmann), that might not be the case in a year or two similar to how we missed the Klopp/Pep boat and settled for LVG.
Facht!
(not sure if you're serious, this is embarassing)
So we should be 77 pts if we're lucky? and that's a FACT?
Do you even know what "fact" means?
Its always hard to define a true first 11, but if you look at the team that beat City away in the season when we finished 2nd, one of the high points of Mourinho's time at United, we started with De Gea, Valencia, Bailly, Smalling, Young, Matic, Pogba, Herrera, Lingard, Sanchez and Lukaku. 6 of those players are now gone (or almost gone in the case of Sanchez and Smalling). Of the 25 players with 10 more appearances that season, 11 have already left or are probably going this summer, Mata and Rojo being those likely to leave. That's some pretty serious churn in just two seasons, I dont think you can argue that the composition of the first team squad hasn't changed pretty substantially since Ole came in.
Yeah, the argument was about style of play
That's more of the intention no?
Possession based football can still be entertaining, it's just up to the coach and how the players implement it.
What are xPTS? is that like some storeytime thing?
That's what I'm saying. Fans hated his football because it was pretty boring, if he was trying to be entertaining he failed miserably and the end result was crap, dull football, so fans hated what he offered.
The overall quality and holes of the team is basically the same.
We still need those upgrades at centre back, right wing and upfront. Potentially midfield depending on Pogba.
We got rid of a lot of rubbish to be fair.
But that's exactly what this is. Another thread to bash Ole.
As you said, Ole is building a strong foundation. He's promoting youth, he's trying to implement an attacking, pressing style that most of us want. I agree it's taking time but it was always going to take a long time.
And let's face it we aren't out of the race for top four yet. So long as we are making progress, no matter how slow, I'm loathed to destroy that by bringing in a new 'big name' manager who will have his own idea's and philosophy.
No matter what manager comes in, there will be a period where they are trying to implement their philosophy, a 'transition period' that people hate the sound of. Well we are coming out the arse end of Ole's transition period, let's see what the guy can do with a fit and firing team that has been improved in many areas.
Threads like this, when they are unwarranted, serve nothing but to bring the mood of the forum down and perpetuate the constant need to swap manager.