Dean Henderson has to be our #1 next season? Poll added

[Relevated]

You actually posed a possible solution there.

Nice!
Also consistent with the current and upcoming seasons.

Season 20/21
1. Dean back with us.
2. First month of next season, Dean play most of the games with Romero back-ups.
3. De Gea given one month holiday (justification? = De Gea need a "break" to get back his normal form, maybe Ole can mention the break given to Schmeichel by SAF)
4. If Dean convinces, stay and keep his place.
5. If Dean is shaky and terrible ala Foster, we may need De Gea back if we're really serious in winning trophies and doing better next season.
6. Scenario #4 would meant De Gea can start fishing for new clubs and go away the earliest Jan 21'.
7. Scenario #5 meant we may need to loan back Dean (if still can) to get more exps.

Either scenario, we lose nothing.

The break may even jog De Gea to get back his "normal" form with almost zero mistakes every game.

Done!
Easy.

I think this is possibly the best solution. DDG having a holiday is him being dropped without being dropped. But dean henderson might want assurance that hes permanent number 1

 

[EwanI Ted]

They were irrelevant to what ive been saying

Your post was about shots saved and mistakes made. Stats about those two things are irrelevant.. how exactly?

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

He's a class act and deserves the chance to find his form again.

I would get rid though, if we decide to modernise our playing style into a pressing game, since he's obviously not cut out for that kind of play. And I would very much like to see that change happen. But unless it does, I would show loyalty for a bit longer.

My biggest concern is that he relies on his naturally quick reactions more than most and so he will have the same shelf life as a pacey striker - once the quick twitch muscles go, he's gone too.

Sorry but how long do we give him? He’s been throwing balls in the net since the 2018 World Cup. He has declined and it’s sad to see. He isn’t going to get back to the heights of 2013-2017.

 

[::sonny::]

5 yrs in a row of mistakes

Incredible

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Based on what? that DDG has been poor? If DDG was still world class, would you still say the same?

Based on him being an academy product and by nearly all statistical measures one of the best keepers in the league this season.

If DDG was still a top class keeper he’d go out on loan again. As it is - he isn’t.

 

[V.O.]

5 yrs in a row of mistakes

Incredible

Why exaggerate? 17-18 was his best season statistically.

2 years of feck ups is already enough.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Your post was about shots saved and mistakes made. Stats about those two things are irrelevant.. how exactly?

My post wasn't about comparing them, I was talking about what ive seen from him and what to expect if he were to replace De Gea. The stats show a very limited scope about them, all they do is prove that he's been having a good season on loan, in case it was in any doubt.

Based on him being an academy product and by nearly all statistical measures one of the best keepers in the league this season.

If DDG was still a top class keeper he’d go out on loan again. As it is - he isn’t.

Ok fair enough, I respectfully disagree if those are the only reasons. However, as I mentioned in my first post earlier on, I am open to the idea of having him start for us next season, if De Gea continues his poor form and doesn't improve. However, I don't think he'll be that much of an upgrade, and while he can develop with us despite the odd mistake, we might have to be content with sitting around 5th or 6th again. I can see him conceding in one of those tight games when we're not at the races. With De Gea, it's still a gamble, but at least he's proven at the top level, and may still recover from his slump.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

I disagree.I would want to see how Henderson progresses over the next 12 months before taking such a big call...

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Ok fair enough, I respectfully disagree if those are the only reasons. However, as I mentioned in my first post earlier on, I am open to the idea of having him start for us next season, if De Gea continues his poor form and doesn't improve. However, I don't think he'll be that much of an upgrade, and while he can develop with us despite the odd mistake, we might have to be content with sitting around 5th or 6th again. I can see him conceding in one of those tight games when we're not at the races. With De Gea, it's still a gamble, but at least he's proven at the top level, and may still recover from his slump.

My position is that they should compete against each other for the position next season. Two years ago Henderson went on loan to League One and made team of the season, one year ago he was on loan in the Championship and won the golden gloves. This season he’s played in the PL and has been one of the best keepers in the league by most objective measures. He’s an academy player who has excelled at every step of his career so far. As I said earlier, he’s earned a shot to challenge for the shirt and De Gea needs to be put under pressure to sink or swim.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

My position is that they should compete against each other for the position next season. Two years ago Henderson went on loan to League One and made team of the season, one year ago he was on loan in the Championship and won the golden gloves. This season he’s played in the PL and has been one of the best keepers in the league by most objective measures. He’s an academy player who has excelled at every step of his career so far. As I said earlier, he’s earned a shot to challenge for the shirt and De Gea needs to be put under pressure to sink or swim.

Unfortunately he doesn’t want to be put in that position.He wants a categorical assurance from the club that he will be the 1 next season...I find that a bit weird because a club like United should never assure a starting spot to any player.Players have to be willing to fight it out to earn the right to play regularly....If Henderson doesn’t want to compete with De Gea,then let him stay on loan for another season...The club Can take a call after seeing De Geas form and Henderson’s progress at the end of next season...

 

[EwanI Ted]

My post wasn't about comparing them, I was talking about what ive seen from him and what to expect if he were to replace De Gea. The stats show a very limited scope about them, all they do is prove that he's been having a good season on loan, in case it was in any doubt.

I mean you said

I would say they are similar, but De Gea's have been more high profile. When Dean makes a mistake at Sheffield, nobody really cares, and it is usually forgotten 24 hrs later, but he actually cost his team the cup with that. Some of the goals he's let in this season have been pretty weak as well, and not just De Gea but any decent keeper like Kepa would've saved them. Either he reacts too late, or his positioning was a bit off.

Which is pretty obviously comparing the two keepers while saying things about Henderson’s shot stopping and mistakes that are demonstrably wrong according to the stats. But, hey, knock yourself out.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Unfortunately he doesn’t want to be put in that position.He wants a categorical assurance from the club that he will be the 1 next season...I find that a bit weird because a club like United should never assure a starting spot to any player.Players have to be willing to fight it out to earn the right to play regularly....If Henderson doesn’t want to compete with De Gea,then let him stay on loan for another season...The club Can take a call after seeing De Geas form and Henderson’s progress at the end of next season...

I think the noises are that he wants to be able to legitimately challenge DDG for the shirt. Give DDG the league and Henderson the cups.

 

[JMack1234]

Bring Henderson back.

Give him assurances that he'll play in the Cups + Champions League (please) or the Europa League if the worst happens.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I mean you said

Which is pretty obviously comparing the two keepers while saying things about Henderson’s shot stopping and mistakes that are demonstrably wrong according to the stats. But, hey, knock yourself out.

Do you know what high profile means? And do the stats show other competitions or only PL? And finally, are you fully planning to live and die by the stats?

 

[EwanI Ted]

Do you know what high profile means? And do the stats show other competitions or only PL? And finally, are you fully planning to live and die by the stats?

Did your post compare De Gea and Henderson, yes or no?

 

[mu4c_20le]

Did your post compare De Gea and Henderson, yes or no?

Do you ever watch Sheffield United games, yes or no?

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

I think the noises are that he wants to be able to legitimately challenge DDG for the shirt. Give DDG the league and Henderson the cups.

Ideal scenario...Hopefully he”ll be willing to fight it out with David...

 

[EwanI Ted]

Do you ever watch Sheffield United games, yes or no?

Yes. Your turn.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Yes. Your turn.

Yes

 

[EwanI Ted]

Yes

So why exactly did you say it wasn't?

 

[mu4c_20le]

So why exactly did you say it wasn't?

Because I was only answering your question. I had no intention of comparing them, and if the stats show he made more errors, fine. Why did you ask me if you had the stats, and why don't you remember any of Henderson's mistakes if you watched his matches?

 

[EwanI Ted]

Because I was only answering your question. I had no intention of comparing them this season, and if the stats show he made more errors, fine. Why did you ask me if you had stats, and why don't you remember any of Henderson's mistakes if you watched his matches?

Do you also agree that Henderson has a better save rate this season than De Gea?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

If you want a thorough comparison of the two and are genuinely open minded


Brilliant break down for anyone.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

People have posted those stats before.


That's probably why you arent paid the big bucks to make these kinds of decisions. I rate him highly myself, but he is a 23 year old with one year of PL experience. So, it's not that obvious and it shouldn't be.

Well that’s just silly. Saying he deserves an opportunity to outcompete De Gea is not the same as saying he should play every single week in the Premier League. All I’m saying is he deserves a chance to play for us in cups, and eventually in the Prem

 

[EwanI Ted]

If you want a thorough comparison of the two and are genuinely open minded


Brilliant break down for anyone.

This only relates to goals let in, not saves made. So while the assessment of each goal is perfectly fair, its obviously not a good way to assess shot stopping.

Edit: oh and it doesn’t account for number of shots faced. Would be interested to see those stats.

 

[glazed]

Sorry but how long do we give him? He’s been throwing balls in the net since the 2018 World Cup. He has declined and it’s sad to see. He isn’t going to get back to the heights of 2013-2017.

I would give him the next two games for sure. But he's maybe three feckups away from the big drop.

 

[RedCurry]

If I had to make lazy comparisons I’d say that David De Gea is clearly the next Casillas while Henderson the next Joe Hart.

 

[Revan]

If you want a thorough comparison of the two and are genuinely open minded


Brilliant break down for anyone.

This is really good. It breaks down everything without exaggeration of he cost us 20 points this season.

For what is worth, I don't think he cost us the match against Chelsea. The second goal was on him obviously, but the first one was mostly on Lindelof (and a bit on him), while the third entirely on Maguire. Nevertheless, we were second best in every part of the pitch, so it was a collective feck up rather than individual mistakes.

Against Spurs, dunno, it is a bit harsh to be blamed entirely on him, especially with Spurs' player making a fool out of Maguire during the goal.

 

[Revan]

If I had to make lazy comparisons I’d say that David De Gea is clearly the next Casillas while Henderson the next Joe Hart.

Not very bad comparison IMO. Dave has always been similar to Casillas, with his wonderkid status, prodigy reflexes, and bad aerial command.

Deano reminds me a bit of Hart too. I feel that he makes standard saves look spectacular, though actually making great saves when needed. Hart was actually one of the best in the world for a few years (and arguably the second-best to Neuer in 2011-2012), so comparing with Hart at his peak is actually quite good.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

This only relates to goals let in, not saves made. So while the assessment of each goal is perfectly fair, its obviously not a good way to assess shot stopping.

It’s an amazing insight into the following key questions:

1. Are the goalkeepers costing points? Yes both of them 6 points and FA Cup progression for De Gea and 5 points and FA Cup progression for Henderson.
2. Are the goals they concede from personal mistakes? Yes De Gea 7 times Henderson 5 times

As an objective assessment of mistakes it’s incredibly well done. You can even see every goal linked if you don’t trust the analysis.

Sad but I’ve spent the afternoon/evening looking through each goal clip for both and I have to say anyone who wants to say Henderson is clearly better needs and I mean needs to watch those clips. He simply isn’t.

I could not in any good conscience say he wouldn’t get torn to pieces on here for those mistakes.

What it boils down to is Henderson is Not faultless and he is making errors at a similar rate and cost to De Gea despite his superior save stats for the season.

What it highlights is that there are only 3 games in the PL where points were lost due to a De Gea mistake and 3 games where a Henderson mistake has cost points.

Essentially they are making similar amounts of errors yet the key difference is the coverage and exposure we have to those mistakes. Henderson has cost Sheffield one less point than De Gea.

1 point Less. And yet some of the posters here are claiming De Gea has cost us 2nd place above City.

You cannot claim De Gea is costing us so much without also accepting Henderson is costing Sheffield United a lot too.

 

[dev1l]

This is really good. It breaks down everything without exaggeration of he cost us 20 points this season.

For what is worth, I don't think he cost us the match against Chelsea. The second goal was on him obviously, but the first one was mostly on Lindelof (and a bit on him), while the third entirely on Maguire. Nevertheless, we were second best in every part of the pitch, so it was a collective feck up rather than individual mistakes.

Against Spurs, dunno, it is a bit harsh to be blamed entirely on him, especially with Spurs' player making a fool out of Maguire during the goal.

So according to your logic, when a keeper makes an error just after his defender made one, he cannot be blamed for his error.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

This is really good. It breaks down everything without exaggeration of he cost us 20 points this season.

For what is worth, I don't think he cost us the match against Chelsea. The second goal was on him obviously, but the first one was mostly on Lindelof (and a bit on him), while the third entirely on Maguire. Nevertheless, we were second best in every part of the pitch, so it was a collective feck up rather than individual mistakes.

Against Spurs, dunno, it is a bit harsh to be blamed entirely on him, especially with Spurs' player making a fool out of Maguire during the goal.

I’ve watched every goal and I too agree it’s harsh but even including it doesn’t change the key message here.

It is simply completely unfounded that Henderson is not making a comparable amount of point losing mistakes. So if De Gea isn’t good enough costing us 6 points Henderson costing 5 points surely isn’t either unless someone genuinely believes we should condemn a player for one point?

 

[mu4c_20le]

Well that’s just silly. Saying he deserves an opportunity to outcompete De Gea is not the same as saying he should play every single week in the Premier League. All I’m saying is he deserves a chance to play for us in cups, and eventually in the Prem

Huge difference mate, especially given the thread title, I'm expecting for most people it's a hard choice between the two. And if the papers are correct he's only willing to come back if he's offered the top spot.

 

[Revan]

So according to your logic, when a keeper makes an error just after his defender made one, he cannot be blamed for his error.

I don't think it was a mistake, in the first place. Could he had saved it? Yes, I believe so. Was it a howler? Not really. The howler was from Maguire against Spurs (and Bournemouth for that matter, but we won the match) and Lindelof against Chelsea. Obviously, De Gea fecked up against Chelsea for the second goal, but we were already losing 1-0 and we were getting outplayed in every department. Blaming De Gea for the loss is unfair, and it gives the impression that we were playing good while he knocked us out, when in truth, there were 2-3 players who gave 6+/10 performance, with the remaining being quite bad.

 

[EwanI Ted]

It’s an amazing insight into the following key questions:

1. Are the goalkeepers costing points? Yes both of them 6 points and FA Cup progression for De Gea and 5 points and FA Cup progression for Henderson.
2. Are the goals they concede from personal mistakes? Yes De Gea 7 times Henderson 5 times

As an objective assessment of mistakes it’s incredibly well done. You can even see every goal linked if you don’t trust the analysis.

Sad but I’ve spent the afternoon/evening looking through each goal clip for both and I have to say anyone who wants to say Henderson is clearly better needs and I mean needs to watch those clips. He simply isn’t.

I could not in any good conscience say he wouldn’t get torn to pieces on here for those mistakes.

What it boils down to is Henderson is Not faultless and he is making errors at a similar rate and cost to De Gea despite his superior save stats for the season.

What it highlights is that there are only 3 games in the PL where points were lost due to a De Gea mistake and 3 games where a Henderson mistake has cost points.

Essentially they are making similar amounts of errors yet the key difference is the coverage and exposure we have to those mistakes. Henderson has cost Sheffield one less point than De Gea.

1 point Less. And yet some of the posters here are claiming De Gea has cost us 2nd place above City.

You cannot claim De Gea is costing us so much without also accepting Henderson is costing Sheffield United a lot too.

If one goalie faces 50 shots and let's in 10, and another faces 100 shots and lets in 10, they're obviously not equally as good even though they let int the same number. Simply looking at goals conceded doesn't let you compare them. Pretty simple point, surely.

Maybe further analysis would tell us this. But what you’ve shared doesn’t.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I don't think it was a mistake, in the first place. Could he had saved it? Yes, I believe so. Was it a howler? Not really. The howler was from Maguire against Spurs (and Bournemouth for that matter, but we won the match) and Lindelof against Chelsea. Obviously, De Gea fecked up against Chelsea for the second goal, but we were already losing 1-0 and we were getting outplayed in every department. Blaming De Gea for the loss is unfair, and it gives the impression that we were playing good while he knocked us out, when in truth, there were 2-3 players who gave 6+/10 performance, with the remaining being quite bad.

It’s irrelevant and I agree it wasn’t a howler.

However don’t let this detract from the key message.

De Gea has cost us 6 points and FA Cup progression

Henderson has cost 5 points and FA Cup progression.

These are facts. So how can Henderson be clearly better if his mistakes are costing only 1 point less.

I appreciate his XG against is impressive but he will not maintain 8+ season on season as no GK in the history of the PL has ever been able to. What is far more likely is he will revert to a slightly positive XG but nowhere near the 8.

 

[Revan]

I’ve watched every goal and I too agree it’s harsh but even including it doesn’t change the key message here.

It is simply completely unfounded that Henderson is not making a comparable amount of point losing mistakes. So if De Gea isn’t good enough costing us 6 points Henderson costing 5 points surely isn’t either unless someone genuinely believes we should condemn a player for one point?

Yep. For what is worth, I think that the time has come for De Gea to be dropped for some matches, and it needs to be said that he has done some other mistakes that could have cost us points (but the strikers won the matches anyway). I just don't buy this narrative that we would have been second (or fighting for second place) or be 15-20 points better without De Gea, which is kinda nuts.

I also am disappointed on him for not making saves, that while hard to make, could have been made. It is what you expect from the most paid keeper in the world, after all.

To summarize, I think he is playing like an average keeper but getting paid like top keeper in the world.

 

[Beachryan]

I really can't see any downside to bringing Henderson back, with the expectation that he's clearly competing for the spot. He won't get it from the start, but he'll get cup games and occasional opportunities if he performs well - just like any other player.

He'll integrate into the squad, get used to training and so forth.

While keepers can age well, it doesn't really hold to those like Dave, who rely almost entirely on reflexes and a subconscious ability to know where shots are going to go. I can't see him getting any better, let's put it that way.

So this time next year, we either have Dave back to his best, or we've transitioned over to Henderson.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

If one goalie faces 50 shots and let's in 10, and another faces 100 shots and lets in 10, they're obviously not equally as good even though they let int the same number. Simply looking at goals conceded doesn't let you compare them. Pretty simple point, surely.

Maybe further analysis would tell us this. But what you’ve share doesn’t.

Yes it does you just don’t want to admit it. They have faced almost identical numbers of shots only a difference of 6 shots.

Henderson has faced 126 shots on target against (shots that if not saved would result in a goal) and saved 96 so 76.2% save rate.

De Gea has faced 120 shots on target against and saved 87 so 72.5%.

Very comparable figures and percentages and also very comparable points lost as a result of those non saved shots.

There is the further analysis and conclusion is the same as before. Henderson despite his “better” season is still costing similar to De Gea.

 

[Dec9003]

Because I was only answering your question. I had no intention of comparing them, and if the stats show he made more errors, fine. Why did you ask me if you had the stats, and why don't you remember any of Henderson's mistakes if you watched his matches?

Nobody is saying Henderson hasn't made mistakes, all goalkeepers in all the teams will make errors, they're human. The problem with De Gea is hes making more mistakes than most for the second season in a row, whilst Henderson has been statistically one of the best keepers in the league.
Henderson is a really great young keeper, and we'd still have Romero as a solid second option if there are problems with Henderson, but I'm honestly convinced there wouldn't be.
It's a shame because I love De Gea, but we can't afford to be sentimental and keep him in the side when he's performing like this.