Zen86
Full Member
He’s not wrong though.A lot of name calling there. You're just as bad as the people who go over the top on the other side of the argument. Stop the name calling and present your opinion in a civilized and intelligent manner.
He’s not wrong though.A lot of name calling there. You're just as bad as the people who go over the top on the other side of the argument. Stop the name calling and present your opinion in a civilized and intelligent manner.
Calling other posters names dilutes any argument made and takes the discussion the wrong way. I'm in the middle when it comes to Ole, don't think he's done as great nor as bad as some posters put it. Both sides of the argument make valid points.He’s not wrong though.
Except I didn't direct it at anyone in particular.Calling other posters names dilutes any argument made and takes the discussion the wrong way. I'm in the middle when it comes to Ole, don't think he's done as great nor as bad as some posters put it. Both sides of the argument make valid points.
We have people on this forum calling him an "idiot"
Whether it's directed at one person or multiple, the sentiment remains the same and serves only to weaken the effectiveness of your argument. You would have been better served leaving it out, especially as it's exactly the sentiment you were against in your OP.Except I didn't direct it at anyone in particular.
Please don't try and skew what I said to fit your warped narrative.
I said people that cannot see that progress is being made are stupid, and entitled. It was directed at a collective; not an individual. And I stand by what I said, 100%.
I think the difference is that some people just look at stats and on that basis 2nd place/81 points looks good. But if you look a little deeper and consider things like sustainability, then a different picture emerges.Absolutely. It didn’t feel like an achievement at the time under Mourinho and we still felt like it was the wrong style of football and that it wouldn’t last under Mou. Which became reality.
It feels progressive under Ole, like we are headed in a clearly better direction. With the right recruitment and bringing through youth as well.
There’s no doubt in my mind, regardless of that 2nd place finish, that we are in the best place we’ve been since SAF right now. We need to build on that, not tear it up and go in a totally different direction under a new manager. It hurts my head how some don’t see this.
People keep saying this but it's not really true. Martial played in 31 league games, Rashford played in 30. Martial played 2550 minutes in the PL, Rashford played 2565.I disagree for the simple fact that United are in the same boat as a team like Chelsea in that, on average, the playing XI has been worse this season than last season. Your analysis (I'm being respectful, it really isn't one) is flawed because you only look at the squads on paper and disregard injuries that leave players out for huge parts of the season. Lukaku brought goals against the bottom sides so there were goals lost as he wasn't replaced + Martial and Rashford were both out for long periods. Pogba was basically out for most of the season until the restart. Also Bruno will have been here for 15 PL matches after the next match. This team played 23 PL matches this year without Bruno (and most of those 23 were without Pogba, Rashford, and Martial playing together) so you can't say Bruno was here for half a season nor can you extrapolate the current playing XI to the entirety of the 2019-20 PL season.
If Liverpool had the same magnitude of injuries as United or even City, there is no way they would have reached 90 points. City were hit with significant injuries in key areas this season and, as a result, are far away from the 98 points they posted last season.
Basically "anyone who doesn't share my view on the team is stupid and entitled", thanks for saying it out loud.Except I didn't direct it at anyone in particular.
Please don't try and skew what I said to fit your warped narrative.
I said people that cannot see that progress is being made are stupid, and entitled. It was directed at a collective; not an individual. And I stand by what I said, 100%.
What, you think we've not made progress this season?Basically "anyone who doesn't share my view on the team is stupid and entitled", thanks for saying it out loud.
No I'm not arguing about Ole here. I making fun of how you are expressing your view. Not only me who pointed it out by the way.What, you think we've not made progress this season?
It's bizarre to me, (and anyone I speak to), that people actually think that we haven't?
You're arguing with me for the sake of it. Get off your shitty agenda and crusade, and open your eyes to what I am saying.
I'll ask you again: Do you think we've made progress this season?No I'm not arguing about Ole here. I making fun of how you are expressing your view. Not only me who pointed it out by the way.
I will leave it out here because I got what I wanted.
Hush hush, who cares about how minutes they played or how many points we won. There has been progress and if anyone does not see it is an idiot.People keep saying this but it's not really true. Martial played in 31 league games, Rashford played in 30. Martial played 2550 minutes in the PL, Rashford played 2565.
For comparison, Mané played 2730 and Salah played 2862. Sure, it's more, but really not that much more, the difference is 2-4 games - and we keep saying that Liverpool had a "freakishly lucky" season when it came to injuries anyway. You know who did miss long periods? Sergio Agüero: he only played 1460 minutes. Of City's attacking players, Sterling played the most, with 2571 minutes. At Chelsea, only four players in the entire squad played more PL minutes than Martial or Rashford (and one of those is Willian with 2605, a negligible difference).
Pogba did miss most of the season, that's fair. Of course, he was fit for last season's run-in, when we also still had Lukaku's goals and Herrera in midfield and we were garbage anyway.
The best defence of Ole is that we seemingly pulled ourselves together after the Bruno Fernandes signing and if we can maintain similar levels of form next season, we'll finally be better than a 4th-6th level team. But I am worried nonetheless because he already had a similar run right after he was appointed and that was followed by an epic collapse and then half a season of awful struggle. I really enjoyed the post-Bruno football (well, apart from the last few games - again, a worrying sign) and I want to believe but I still have nagging doubts that it was all a flash in the pan, again.
This. We’ve had a few rough patches but the turnaround has been incredible and your point about how Ole and Arteta are viewed by some is bang on.If we had finished in 10th and Arsenal finished in 3rd, Arteta would have been hailed as the Messiah and Solskjaer would have been run out of town. Yet he is getting all the stick and Arteta is making progress and turning things around at Arsenal.
The last time we lost in the league to Burnley in January, we were 6 points I think off 4th and double digits off Leicester. Now we're just 90 minutes away from finishing 3rd above BOTH Chelsea and Leicester. Who would have thought that was remotely possible?
It's frankly quite baffling.
I agree with some of your post but the bold is purely made up and you just putting your own thoughts on other people.The OP is having a mare and I'm all for keeping Ole. It's not a good look to start a thread and act like a condescending know-it-all when people challenge your viewpoint.
Fact is, Ole isn't a top manager and he has plenty of flaws. He's had a good, solid 2020 and has pulled the club out of the dark trenches that Mourinho took it. But let's not pretend he took over a group of mid-table misfits, either. We clearly have a talented group of players that didn't respond to Mourinho's negative methods. People saying they expected us to finish "8th to 10th" are clearly agenda driven and trying to big-up what Ole has done with us.
The squad is a strong squad and the minimum was always getting top four. Yes, Ole has done amazing to get us back in contention when we looked down-and-out. But let's not pretend that it wasn't under his stewardship when we looked down-and-out. Of course, there are a multitude of variables for that, but he should have done far better in some of the games in the first half of the season. Ole still has plenty to prove and the criticisms are warranted.
This thread is literally off the back of a very small minority of posters that go totally OTT with their repetitive critique of the man. Conversely, there are a set of equally boring, repetitive posters who will spin any line they can to absolve him of any blame and overstate the work he's done here. The jury is certainly still out but I'll back him with or without CL football. I feel change now would be totally counterproductive and he's certainly made a-lot of positive changes but still has a-lot to prove.
In fairness, not speaking for him, but I think he’s frustrated by the thought that many here would sack Ole, disregard the first real progress we’ve seen since SAF and hire another ‘big name manager’ which will literally hit the reset button.No I'm not arguing about Ole here. I making fun of how you are expressing your view. Not only me who pointed it out by the way.
I will leave it out here because I got what I wanted.
I'm on the same page mate. Yet another thread on Ole.Stop being so sensitive. A Manchester United manager should be highly scrunitised. Ole is no different. People here pretend as if he is to United what Messi is to Barcelona. And even then the person should be critiqued as just another manager.
People who think we are making progress are idiots, oh btw I'm not directing this at you specifically. Still name calling, no?Except I didn't direct it at anyone in particular.
Please don't try and skew what I said to fit your warped narrative.
I said people that cannot see that progress is being made are stupid, and entitled. It was directed at a collective; not an individual. And I stand by what I said, 100%.
Of course it's my thoughts that I'm conveying, it's a forum, but I stand by it. The points totals are all relative. Thinking we would regress and 9 teams - in a pretty poor PL, by all accounts - would finish above us, is all Ole spin imo. But again, that's simply my take and I'm certainly not seeking unanimous agreement.I agree with some of your post but the bold is purely made up and you just putting your own thoughts on other people.
I though we’d finish 8-10th. The way people are crying by our points this season, that prediction wasn’t so far off was it?
Well, if you can't acknowledge finishing 3rd, securing CL football (assuming all goes to plan) and still in with a shout of the Europa League trophy as signs of significant progress, there are no other words for it really are there?People who think we are making progress are idiots, oh btw I'm not directing this at you specifically. Still name calling, no?
Look as I've said in previous posts, I find good arguments on both sides of the argument and you made som solid ones in your post as well but calling people idiots and entitled was completely unecessary and didn't really add anything to your argument.
I was more replying to you making up that people have agendas if they don’t agree with you.Of course it's my thoughts that I'm conveying, it's a forum, but I stand by it. The points totals are all relative. Thinking we would regress and 9 teams - in a pretty poor PL, by all accounts - would finish above us, is all Ole spin imo. But again, that's simply my take and I'm certainly not seeking unanimous agreement.
Absolutely, you've already someone in mind I think?Personally I don’t think we’ll challenge for the title with him as manager and if he fails today then he should be sacked. I know it’s harsh but this is Manchester United and mediocrity is not good enough. Our squad is improving and a top manager is a key part of what we need. That being said, I have and will always have massive respect for Ole.
@westmeath. Don’t get roped in he’s just going to tell you no one on this planet can replace Ole and give you all the negatives to the guy you have in mind.Absolutely, you've already someone in mind I think?
Yes. But why those random numbers? Don’t tell me it’s SAF in 1935?Would anyone sack the manager for finishing in 2nd-12th-13th in three consecutive seasons?
Not related to this post but can I ask you a question so I get a feeling of what you mean when you post.Yes. But why those random numbers? Don’t tell me it’s SAF in 1935?
Well, the broader point was that the staunch 'Ole-in' crowd are equally as agenda driven as the stauch 'Ole-out' crowd. Both use spin and selective stats etc. So yes, saying you expected us to finish 8th to 10th is just as agenda driven as someone who says any other manager would have had us finishing comfortably 3rd.I was more replying to you making up that people have agendas if they don’t agree with you.
The points and performance I agree we all have different opinions. Just not agendas
Yes. I’ve seen enough to know he’s not taking us any further and there is a coach who does exactly what he does but better in Pochettino who should have been given the job when we had Mourinho takeover. Poor hindsight from the club and many fans at the time including me.Not related to this post but can I ask you a question so I get a feeling of what you mean when you post.
do you think Ole should be sacked this summer? Yes or no will do
It's not as binary as that.Not related to this post but can I ask you a question so I get a feeling of what you mean when you post.
do you think Ole should be sacked this summer? Yes or no will do
Congratulations, you just dispensed with the services of our greatest ever manager/contender in 1990, after his first three full seasons.Yes. But why those random numbers? Don’t tell me it’s SAF in 1935?
It really bugs me that any one that has doubts over Ole are labelled as agenda driven when that is exactly what the In crowd also have.Well, the broader point was that the staunch 'Ole-in' crowd are equally as agenda driven as the stauch 'Ole-out' crowd. Both use spin and selective stats etc. So yes, saying you expected us to finish 8th to 10th is just as agenda driven as someone who says any other manager would have had us finishing comfortably 3rd.
What’s the barometer for two more seasons? We can actually explore this?Congratulations, you just dispensed with the services of our greatest ever manager/contender in 1990, after his first three full seasons.
As you sacked him, he never went on to achieve 6, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1.
I don't know if Ole will win even one of those titles, but I know he won't if he gets sacked and sacking him prematurely when he is taking the team in the right direction makes no sense.
Being neither Ole 'in/out' as a matter of conviction, I would like to see him given two more seasons to show what he can do and if his team is regularly and consistently challenging for silverwar, then he's earned the right to stay longer.
Fundamentally I find that question interesting because in sports whether a manager could be sacked or not depends on a lot of things. But for me there are two main reasons, the manager is currently underperforming or the club believes that the manager isn't going to be significantly better than he currently is.Not related to this post but can I ask you a question so I get a feeling of what you mean when you post.
do you think Ole should be sacked this summer? Yes or no will do
Yes, agreed. Any debate over Ole has become extremely tedious and not even worth getting into. Thankfully I'm pretty impartial to him at this point and I see the positives and negatives. If he left at the end of the season I wouldn't be overly fussed but if he stays - which I fully expect he will - then I'll fully back him and hope he improves us furter while also improving himself as a manager.It really bugs me that any one that has doubts over Ole are labelled as agenda driven when that is exactly what the In crowd also have.
This thread encapsulates that Pro Ole agenda throughout.
The forum has become an us or them environment and objective debate is almost dead because people either refuse to consider an alternative PoV or threads descend into name calling. Especially when OP doesn't get the support he thought he was going to get, aye @Leethal?
Id say I share a similar view. If it was my choice I'd probably part ways just because I don't think he will ever win trophies with us (specifically the big 2). However I fully expect him to be in charge come September and he will still get my full support. But I'm not going to blindly support him because of his playing career and I won't be bullied into not expressing any dissatisfaction with him if he performs as badly as he did at the start of this season.Yes, agreed. Any debate over Ole has become extremely tedious and not even worth getting into. Thankfully I'm pretty impartial to him at this point and I see the positives and negatives. If he left at the end of the season I I wouldn't be overly fussed but if he stays - which I fully expect he will - then I'll fully back him and hope he improves us furter while also improving himself as a manager.
The two warring factions are so boring on here at this point. It's literally the same few staunch in and out crowd monopolising every Ole related thread and rammind their opinions down everyone's throat. The in crowd seem oblivious to the fact that they're equally as agenda driven which shows a crazy lack of self awareness.
RE: Van Gaal - I thought it was absolutely disgusting the way we handled the sacking of Van Gaal. I think outside of his horrible football, he was actually trying to stick to our/his values with promoting youth and doing things the "right" way. He wasn't the right fit for us, obviously, (as the football was horrible to watch), but due to his stature, passion and commitment to the job I thought he deserved better than the way we let him go. It might have been the right time to move him on, but definitely not in the way we handled it.I think this whole discussion ecapsulates the awkwardness with having a club legend/great servant as your manager. Comments about Louis van Gaal and Jose Mourinho that might have been seen as fair game suddenly aren't becuase of OGS's history with United. Louis van Gaal and Jose Mourinho copped some very strongly worded and often justifiable criticism during their tenures. I wonder how the OP felt about that.
I do read a lot of the stuff about Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and yes, some of it is can be a bit harsh but then there are times I wonder if the term ''the buck stops with the manager'' has been forgotten a bit as well. This is an opinion site. Some will be lenient on the manager, others are going to hold them to a high standard and pile a large amount of the culpability for their team not winning at the feet of the manager.
What’s the barometer for two more seasons, can actually explore this? - I don't think it can be reasonably explored out of context.What’s the barometer for two more seasons? We can actually explore this?
Also I ask this question all the time. How old are you?