He’s going on about points Moyes got 7 years ago
Total lack of respect for an absolute club legend (another Ole thread)
- Thread starter Leethal
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Ole wasn't happy with his defence, so we spent 140m on two players. Just let it go with the spending money rhetoric, we have also spent. Old has also been backed.
His performance should and must be analyzed. In my opinion, he has done fairly okay but the question must be asked if he is good enough to take us another level. For me personally, we don't have a set way of playing and football has moved on from expecting your players to conjure up something to win games.
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I think it's reasonable to suggest that teams have improved this season compared to last year, but not to the level that would allow for any significant conclusions to be drawn. West Ham and Watford were both comfortably free of relegation last year but West Ham only became safe this year on matchday 37 while Watford will likely be relegated. Sheffield United has been a notable addition to the number of teams competing for European spots. Also, one can argue that for much of this season, the United squad was weaker than last seasons due to aggressive culling of players + lack of reinforcements to counter the departures. I would say the current starting XI is better than last seasons and I think if there is good investment this summer then there can't be any excuses as that squad would be better than Jose's 2018-19 squad.
I admit that is a bit far. It is a negative record which will always be mentioned but it is quite irrelevant (same as it is the treble total number of point which was 2 decades ago and is a total outlier). But he also compared it to last year's season. If we win the match, we will get the same number of points as last season, when for 4 months we had a manager in sabotage mode. Which kind of means that actually there was not much progress during this season.
Some teams might have become slightly better, some slightly worse, but the average EPL teams cannot change that much during the year. I mean, why it shouldn't. What definitely has happened is that Chelsea are weaker (newbie coach, sold Hazard, transfer ban), Arsenal are weaker (sacked their manager, hired newbie coach) and Spurs are weaker (sacked their manager who was at the end of the cycle, went from almost winning UCL to losing 4-0 against the mighty Leipzig). It is totally justifiable to think that if all these three clubs did not have historically weak seasons, we would have been fighting for the sixth with Leicester City. In fact, that is what these number of points would have brought last season (and the one before that, and the one before that).
So make no mistake, we might qualify for UCL and that would be fecking awesome. But to a very large degree that is because the other clubs fecked up more than us. If people think that "this" will be enough for the next season, they are gonna have a reality check very soon. The league has been extremely forgiving this season and there is nothing to suggest that it will be the same.
So all things considering, Ole being more settled, signing Maguire, AWB, James and for half a season Bruno (and selling Lukaku and the deadwood), we are just as good as last year. Finishing higher in the table cause 3 other clubs became weaker does not make us stronger, it just makes them weaker.
The style of football is interchanging and linkup between players outside the box and inside the box. Lots of 1-2s and runs into the box for shots. Seen it already with Rashford, Martial, Bruno, Shaw getting in there, etc. How they specifically do it is up to the players and to have freedom, but those are their core principals.
As far as recruitment, Ole's and staff are trying to get their hands on players who have quality and the mentality and drive necessary for United. He's kind of figuring out still the formation and how to get the best out of everyone. He cannot ship out everyone and start anew because there's a balance to in's and out's. Maguire is club captain and he'll be starting as long as he's fit. I think too many people believe the manager and staff doesn't see that Maguire and Lindelof aren't a perfect pairing. I don't believe they have to be perfect but if you gave Lindelof pace to burn, they'd be perfect or close to it. It'd be interesting to see if the club does bring in a CB and how does Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly, and a young player react. But competition is good and it's always needed.
AWB has to improve his technique and composure when passing short to intermediate length. He's improved but he's also shown his limitations, especially recently. He'll have to continue to learn and adapt his attacking support with the players above him. That's going to take time, repetition, and coaching. Dortmund play with wingbacks, but also Sancho wasn't rooted to the flanks. Sancho will work off the ball for the team, that's a non-starter.
Pogba is a central midfielder and in the PL and with United, he has to pull his own weight on the ball and off the ball, which includes defending. He's shown it, but maybe he doesn't have to start every game. Nicky Butt, Paul Scholes, and Roy Keane had to rotate. More so Butt and Scholes, but current United aren't in that position. If United had prime Matic of Benfica and Chelsea, then the midfielder revolves around his partner and the player ahead of them or two 8s with Matic. But again, not possible.
United have played 3 at the back and a midfield diamond, then Ole should have his players be able to play those systems throughout the year but going off a 4231 as the standard. They played 433 off the ball when countering against City for example.
I get what you’re saying and all your points make sense to be fair re the points. I just think you can see With your eyes improvements in the team and performance without resorting to comparing points across seasons to try and prove it wrong. Each season has different things happening at different times.
Same can be said about him. This forum(parts of it), and probably football fans as a whole are the most toxic people i have come across. At times its just nasty. They don't do anything for anyone.Thought this was gonna be about De Gea for a second
De Gea carried the whole f'ing club on his shoulders for 4-5 years. That alone is reason enough to avoid nasty name-calling and stuff. Nobody is saying we can't critize players. de GEa deserves plenty this season.
Imagine being this toxic to someone like Ole. Probably one of the few players that has completely flawlessly represented this club for close to 20 years. No complaints. No disrespect towards a single fan, player, staffer and whoever else has anything to do with this football club. Just pure love and dedication towards the club for two decades. You would imagine he deserves better, but apperantly not.
I need to do better by simply ignoring these people. They make my whole days worse.
Here bloody Here! Ole has brought us back from the brink and we're starting to look like a Manchester United team should look like. He knows we have a lot still to do and much will depend on how Woodward performs re the transfer market, but Ole will continue to strive to put us back where we belong; Uniteds DNA is in his own DNA! If nothing else hes brought back the feel good factor, players are smiling, not scowling, and some supporters should try doing the same!
Well said.
I never said you did, nor did I state you wanted him. Not sure where you got that from?
Simply saying it was like a description of Poch, as in does well, but then falls away/ falters when it’s crunch time.
Fab, another Ole thread with the same hardcore fans from both sides of the spectrum spouting their repetitive views in yet another thread. Yay.
I disagree for the simple fact that United are in the same boat as a team like Chelsea in that, on average, the playing XI has been worse this season than last season. Your analysis (I'm being respectful, it really isn't one) is flawed because you only look at the squads on paper and disregard injuries that leave players out for huge parts of the season. Lukaku brought goals against the bottom sides so there were goals lost as he wasn't replaced + Martial and Rashford were both out for long periods. Pogba was basically out for most of the season until the restart. Also Bruno will have been here for 15 PL matches after the next match. This team played 23 PL matches this year without Bruno (and most of those 23 were without Pogba, Rashford, and Martial playing together) so you can't say Bruno was here for half a season nor can you extrapolate the current playing XI to the entirety of the 2019-20 PL season.
If Liverpool had the same magnitude of injuries as United or even City, there is no way they would have reached 90 points. City were hit with significant injuries in key areas this season and, as a result, are far away from the 98 points they posted last season.
In all honesty, the point total just reinforces what we have seen. That during the course of the entire season, we are not better than last year. Just that three other clubs have weakened.
I think we have been very good on the second half of the season, so that is promising. If we had been as good for the entire season, likely we would have finished second, probably getting more points than in Mourinho's second season. The question is, was that a purple patch, or Bruno + players returned from injuries meant that we are a much better team. In case we lose and miss UCL, we do not need to forget that in the last 5 games we would have gone 2 defeats, 2 draws and 1 win, which kind of makes the previous form a purple patch. If we get UCL instead, then the minimum target is reached, and we see if we actually can build on this during the next season.
My entire point in this thread and why I am not Ole in, is that the entire season needs to be evaluated. Not only when we were good, not only when we were bad. UCL was always minimum requirement, reaching it is not a success but at the same time, it is a passing grade for Ole. Not reaching it - in a historically weak season for the other clubs (yes it is totally true, no point on denying it) - is doing worse than what you minimally expect from a United manager. In which case, if he gets fired, he has only himself to blame (though if it was up to me, he would get next season anyway, considering that the useless Ed again failed to implement a football structure at the club).
I agree mostly with your last paragraph, the season needs to be evaluated, Ole should get next year regardless of what happens this season end. Also agree that top four is a minimum requirement (obviously) but this season I don’t think it actually was for Ole. It was simply to get the team back on track because we were in a bad place.
I thought we’d finish somewhere around 8-10, there was lots of similar talk and even possible relegation threads however tongue in cheek they were, so to see us have this final push towards a top four spot has been a surprise more than expected.
What is the difference between this and the ‘Ole in Ole out’ thread?
I am just waiting for a ‘How will Sancho fare in the Premier League’ thread;
That should be worth another 300 pages.
I am just waiting for a ‘How will Sancho fare in the Premier League’ thread;
That should be worth another 300 pages.
I don’t see why we should have finished 8-10 except to lower the standards so then Ole gets a passing grade by finishing higher. I mean, we finished 6 with 66 points (yes, as much as we will get this season if we defeat Leicester) with Mourinho sabotaging us for a few months, and then winning 2 out of 15 points in the last 5 matches while fighting for UCL. Ole got time to test his squad, a pre-season to implement new tactics, sold players he did not like, signed 3 players he liked. Why we should have become worse?
This is on unit adding that we also signed Bruno later and the clubs near us went into terrible-mode which we did not expected. Worst case scenario should have been as bad as last year, after all, tell me a reason why Leicester should have finished ahead of us while being far worse than us and signing from them an 80m player (Ole’s evaluation, not mine).
I think Ole should get another season but that is cause Ed is useless. If he had set a structure on place, Ole should have been thanked and released at the end of last season and a better manager hired instead. So yeah, keep Ole there cause I trust his boss to not feck it up even less.
But we’re not worse? I just think this is where we disagree. I seen a team that had no morale, was going nowhere, players wanting out, couldn’t score goals. That has changed now, when we went 1-0 down against West Ham I expected us to score, I didn’t get that feeling a year or so ago so again, I think we’ve improved. Let’s see where next year takes us and I’d say target top four minimum, without letting who Evers top run away with it.
If that’s a failure, depending on how bad or circumstances then get someone else in to start the process all over again.
Yeah but all the examples you gave are of managers who had ready made squads to manage and still couldn’t get it right.
We have a guy whose first had to fix things and fill up the missing spots in the squad. Until he has assembled his full squad, we can not start judging him as yet. With what he’s got so far, he’s a decent job but yes there is room for improvement.
To me he is not a top coach and anyone can see that. He is not good tactically even Jose but of course his management is a lot better than Jose.
I think he should be given at least half of next season and supported during the transfer window.
People say we are playing better than before. Yes of course we are playing better than last year. Last year Jose self destructed.
But in Jose's first and second years we were better because we won trophies and also were second.
These players we have are top class players. Rashford was already England's next big hope. Martial was already looked at as a top potential in France. Pogba a WC winner and Bruno a world class player. Maguire was the England CB and Lindelof the Swedens CB.
These are not middle of the road journeymen.
In my opinion Ole should be doing better with this lot. Yes the squad is weak but in many many matches we don't win because he gets his subs wrong and delays bringing on the subs.
With so many tall players we should be able to score a lot more from corners. Also defend better on corners. He is too inflexible.
There is no variations in the way we play. When we play well it's very attractive to watch. When we don't it's terrible.
I think he should sell Pogba and buy someone who will play for the team.
Let's see what happens on Sunday. I don't think we can draw the match. If we do I will be over the moon. We certainly have the talent and ability to do so but I fear a calamitous mistake from our midfield or keeper as this is something waiting to happen.
I think he should be given at least half of next season and supported during the transfer window.
People say we are playing better than before. Yes of course we are playing better than last year. Last year Jose self destructed.
But in Jose's first and second years we were better because we won trophies and also were second.
These players we have are top class players. Rashford was already England's next big hope. Martial was already looked at as a top potential in France. Pogba a WC winner and Bruno a world class player. Maguire was the England CB and Lindelof the Swedens CB.
These are not middle of the road journeymen.
In my opinion Ole should be doing better with this lot. Yes the squad is weak but in many many matches we don't win because he gets his subs wrong and delays bringing on the subs.
With so many tall players we should be able to score a lot more from corners. Also defend better on corners. He is too inflexible.
There is no variations in the way we play. When we play well it's very attractive to watch. When we don't it's terrible.
I think he should sell Pogba and buy someone who will play for the team.
Let's see what happens on Sunday. I don't think we can draw the match. If we do I will be over the moon. We certainly have the talent and ability to do so but I fear a calamitous mistake from our midfield or keeper as this is something waiting to happen.
Think it's less likely now compared to before.
I misinterpreted your post then. Apologies.
He’s beat tuchel, pep, Poch, only one to take points off Liverpool and stop they’re Run earlier in season but he’s not good tactically because you don’t agree with the timing of his subs. Come on there must be something there
If he was a top coach he would be challenging for the PL this year. Watford stuffed Liverpool. It doesn't mean their manager is better than Klopp.
Managers have to prove themselves to be top managers. They do that by winning trophies or do exceptionally well with a not so good team. When Ole wins a reputable trophy then he will be considered a top class manager.
Manchester United is not a middle of the road club. It's among the biggest in the world. Big Sam beat Jose too and even Arsene. It doesn't mean he is a better coach.
I didn’t say he was a better coach but If he’s as useless tactically as is made out he wouldn’t have got anything from those games, or were they all luck?
as for he would be challenging for the premier league this year, I disagree, and honestly think that’s ridiculous holding that against him for a reason not being a top coach, whether he is or not.
Some people on this forum and in the general fanbase are just plain weird.
They probably do jobs where they are paid multiple times less than our manager with a hell of a lot of stress and expectation on their shoulders.
Yet, they are up in arms when this same manager, who has not warranted his job and associated rewards, and for which they spend their hard-earned money to enjoy is criticised fairly based on actual evidence when they get treated much more harshly for much smaller failures in their daily employment.
Bizarre behaviour.
They probably do jobs where they are paid multiple times less than our manager with a hell of a lot of stress and expectation on their shoulders.
Yet, they are up in arms when this same manager, who has not warranted his job and associated rewards, and for which they spend their hard-earned money to enjoy is criticised fairly based on actual evidence when they get treated much more harshly for much smaller failures in their daily employment.
Bizarre behaviour.
Ole plays with a lot of counter press and there’s a tweet that shows that our form in the league is directly correlated to the effectiveness and intensity of the counter press, which is also correlated with the injuries and return of key player, as well as fitness. We have a way of playing that is demanding, as demanding as Liverpool counter press or City high press. And some of our bench players are not able to do that consistently. That’s really what it’s down to. Because when they are fresh, the execution is fantastic and leads to goals.
At least with Liverpool, from whom we share a lot of the characteristics in the pressing, he would fare well. We also build a lot from the back and that would suit the City players who are used to do that right now. I do think he will fare better with those teams because he’s a type of manager who has a system that is too demanding. I’d think it’s the same for Pep or Klopp, I don’t think they would perform well in lesser teams with lesser players because of their systems being a bit too demanding for most players.
We are fitter. We have an insane level of fitness when you think about the lack of rotation to avoid quality drop and the amount of games we ended up playing. If not, we would have collapsed and our points tally would be worst. We have survived: the fitness training is working. We do need more players to rotate more often.
Look at that graph.
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See the different events. Every time we are able to move the ball fast, it coincides with us being in a big run. It’s affected by injuries, and recruitments. Our fitness is going down for the end of the season but it goes by cycle, meaning that we’re able to break the downward trend and go up. Anyway, we need one more game. And then we can recruit more and finally rotate properly, similar to what SAF used to do. I think it’s not far.
In all honesty we played shit on a stick football on most of those matches, and rarely were under control. Especially against PSG, they defeated themselves. We play like a small club against most top opponents.
Saying that, I think that tactically, he is okay. Coaching wise, I don't know but it doesn't look great. We cannot press while shit teams press us to death, we hardly do many great combination (Mason assist to Bruno was awesome though), we cannot pass efficiently etc. I am not a coach, but those things look like coaching problems. Just look at the way how Soton was able to press us and we didn't have a response to that.
One thing I would give credit to Ole though is that he seems to have given enough freedom to his attackers, and that has been our saving grace this season. Very often has been individual brilliance rather than sophisticated attacking patterns, but it has paid off in the end.
Weird post. I agree that we can't make comparisons with the treble team. But we can / should of course look at the last year and a half and scrutinise our points total. The idea that points need context is correct. The idea that points don't matter is silly.
Liverpool have wastly overperformed this season in terms of points haul. According to understat they have collected 23 more points compared to their XPts. Yeah its hardly an exact science, but when it skews that heavy in one direction it paints a picture of a side with fair winds most of the year.
Also, who the feck cares about points? It just reeks of moving goalposts so people can have something to moan about.
I'm not having a go at Ole personally. I'm backing him to be a our manager next season, my comment was that it was fair to critize our previous managers.
The graph shows me we have fast players. I expect Liverpool’s stats to show the same thing.
I don’t get the collapse and rotation part either. It’s not a positive that we are burning out our players. They don’t look fit either, on the eye test we look lethargic like last year.
We look like shite on a stick passing out from the back and what is counter press football? I see two players pressing at a time. Normally the front 3 excluding Greenwood who doesn’t press. The midfield do zero pressing to. Is this some type of plan? Klopps Liverpool the majority of their team press. Full backs especially.
Yeh we really don’t build from the back. It’s p#ss around with it between our defenders & keeper before we eventually hoof it. If that’s Oles masterplan it’s a bit shite
I’m fed up of people comparing points now to points Moyes had or points Van gaal had or whoever else people want to compare this seasons points to. My example was way over the top yes but comparing points across totally different seasons is stupid
So if our best players are out, we're supposed to keep playing a system that doesn't work without them? That's one of the dumbest take I've ever heard.
What's Ole's system beyond counter attacking and hoping for one of Pogba/Bruno/Martial to have a moment of magic?
Because no ones at the ground.
This is the biggest myth peddled on here. Ole gets plenty of criticism from match going fans. He doesn't get a free pass just because of his playing career here.
It's actually not a dumb take. You're establishing foundations and understanding in what is demanded from a 4231. And you well know that the system has worked and that the quality wasn't up to par in specific areas such as the CAM position. That 4231 has been a primary formation setup and you're allowing the players to play through the learnings and get familiar with it. It has adapted throughout the season with varying effectiveness on the RW/RF and CAM positions. Also, United went to a back 3 a handful of times this season, well before the FA Cup semifinal.
There's been plenty of patterns of attack, especially 1-2s and quick exchanges of the ball within the box. That's an understanding and pattern that has been done in training and how the players actually go about passing, crossing, etc is part player and part training/learning where to make the run and passing.
Martial and Rashford don't have their highest scoring seasons out of sheer luck or random play. There's an understanding on what they are doing and how they are in positions to score.
Apologize if you cannot understand any of the above.
Formations are dead, a 443 from two different teams can have different interpretation on the pitch depending on how the manager has coached them and how the players implement it on the field. A good manager would have found a way to implement his system to best suit his players and improve it as his team gets healthier/better.
If you really think Ole has done a good job despite being on track for our worst season ever in terms of points and goals scored, there's little need to continue on the discussion.
If Ole wasn't a fan favourite from his playing days, the fans would have been asking him to be replaced by the end of last season. His 2019 results in the league was basically relegation standard and anyone who thinks our squad is at that level needs their eyes and head checked.
Irrational and non-football educated fans, yes.
Stupid people see the tip of the iceberg, not the foundation. Any fan with half a brain would see the changes happening under the water. We're in far, far, far better shape than at any other point post-Fergie. We brought in tried and tested managers in the hugely successful Mourinho and Van Gaal, and it was an abortion. We brought in a United man, a man who bleeds the club, and now we are seeing signs of progress as Solskjaer has started to rebuild the broken mess of a foundation he walked into, for the future.
But by all means, slag the man off, and advocate bringing in another Mourinho, Van Gaal, etc. so we can all ride the fecking circus ride again; while they chase immediate success and completely forego the culture, climate, soul and DNA of the club, in an attempt to placate the entitled fans.