V.O.
Last Man Standing finalist 2019/20
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2019
- Messages
- 8,006
What is a hipster CB?
What is a hipster CB?
Yes, of course. Unlike most, I've actually watched a lot of Serie A and Napoli in general, and don't just base my opinions on players off hype, and when you watch the player - regardless of it being this season or last - he hasn't been as good as Maguire.You had Maguire as being better than Koulibaly last year?
Right, *tips fedora*.Yes, of course. Unlike most, I've actually watched a lot of Serie A and Napoli in general, and don't just base my opinions on players off hype, and when you watch the player - regardless of it being this season or last - he hasn't been as good as Maguire.
Yes it is easier to defend and attack for the teams at the top because they are playing against inferior opponents. There is a simple explanation of those teams dominating in Europe, which is they are still very good teams. Champions League is contested by the best around the European leagues, that is not a representation of the entire league quality.Ahh okay, this is another one of those "Premier League is much harder than La Liga" things? Carry on, I've seen this one before
Maguire / Lindelof didn't struggle against City though as we beat them twice this season with only conceded 1 goal. That's also the difference.Difference is Koulibaly is struggling against Barcelona. Maguire / Lindelof struggled against Bournemouth.
Not that I'd not take either at Chelsea, mind.
I'd argue there's a fundamental difference between league matches and CL matches (especially when, no offence, you were never in contention for the league).Maguire / Lindelof didn't struggle against City though as we beat them twice this season with only conceded 1 goal. That's also the difference.
Kouliballi has been poor this season but Varane has been solid with Real and their title winner was down to their defense Varane & Ramos partnership.Koulibali was touted around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.
But watching these super elite centre backs in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give them credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.
neither is as natural as ball playing defenders, such as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.
Napoli also was never in contention for the league & UCL. Napoli conceded 50 goals this season, you made it sounds like Koulibally wasn't struggling in Serie A. Even De Ligt has been struggling in serie A but people don't notice because their names are not Harry Maguire.I'd argue there's a fundamental difference between league matches and CL matches (especially when, no offence, you were never in contention for the league).
Perhaps in isolation - but you completely ignored this season and didn’t use it along with his time @ Leicester and Hull. Is that because it doesn’t support your agreement/ bias?Because limiting the comparison to just this season is silly and arbitrary, and doing so whilst ignoring all other factors to make Maguire look better is disingenuous.
Don't think this is accurate especially given the changed format. Anyone can win over 90 minutes and it was 1-1 between Napoli & Barca coming into today.Napoli also was never in contention for the league & UCL. Napoli conceded 50 goals this season, you made it sounds like Koulibally wasn't struggling in Serie A. Even De Ligt has been struggling in serie A but people don't notice because their names are not Harry Maguire.
I think you're underrating just how good Maguire was last season. He got United and City both chasing him after that season.Right, *tips fedora*.
Just curious as to exactly what you'd base this on beyond your keen eye for scouting, especially considering Napoli conceded 12 fewer goals and finished 7 places above Leicester in their respective leagues last year. Also whilst playing in the CL.
Because one did better in one league after being worse for 3 years while also not playing at the highest level of competition - sure you could argue Maguire has been better this season but it's a messy comparison and hardly convincing.Perhaps in isolation - but you completely ignored this season and didn’t use it along with his time @ Leicester and Hull. Is that because it doesn’t support your agreement/ bias?
The two leagues are not comparable, and even if they were, this by any stretch of the imagination is a ridiculous argument.Right, *tips fedora*.
Just curious as to exactly what you'd base this on beyond your keen eye for scouting, especially considering Napoli conceded 12 fewer goals and finished 7 places above Leicester in their respective leagues last year. Also whilst playing in the CL.
Grealish and VdB don't even play the same position, what are you on about?I think you're underrating just how good Maguire was last season. He got United and City both chasing him after that season.
i never base a players individual talent on where their team as a whole finishes/plays. For a current example, I'd much rather have Grealish than van de beek (which those are the two we seem to be looking at) and vdb has been playing at a much higher level than Grealish these past couple of years. With Ajax having CL footy 'n' all.
I wanted Maguire from Hull before he moved to Leicester anyway, so it wasn't based off one season. I had been a big fan for a long time prior to us signing him. Sometimes a player just catches your eye and, bar van Dijk at Southampton where I said Liverpool were getting a hell of a deal whilst most were laughing, Maguire is the only other CB to do that to me. So far, when you look at our goals conceded start compared to last year - even with de Gea costing us time and time again - I think I was right in my rating of him.
Koulibally has been poor this season not just based on Barcelona game, if his name is Harry Maguire, he would be smashed in the media for all his mistakes this season. No need to be complicated.Don't think this is accurate especially given the changed format. Anyone can win over 90 minutes and it was 1-1 between Napoli & Barca coming into today.
Of course I don't think Napoli were great this year, but equating Napoli's struggles to "Koulibaly is worse than Maguire" is just ridiculous given the turmoil behind the scenes. Yes, the most recent data should be weighted more heavily, but personally I don't think this outweighs the past 3-4 years of their careers and especially when one of the two played in a settled side all season.
36 goals isn't particularly impressive especially when you consider we had our first choice back 5 fit for the majority of the season. Maguire has shown nothing to say he's one of the best defenders in the world. He's had a good season but there are serious flaws in his game and its one of the main reasons people want us to sign another CB. Being perfectly honest, there's been little in it between him and Lindelof this season but because he's our captain and cost £80m, his place will go unchallenged. If Lindelof isn't one of the best defenders in the world (he isn't) then neither is Maguire.Our goals against went from 56 down to 36 (or something like that) despite playing half of last year with a defensive minded coach, and playing with a keeper who can't save a beachball. But because Maguire cost as much as he did, he's under the microscope and any slip up or error is magnified. Same happened when Liverpool signed VVD in January a few seasons ago. Nobody gave him any credit until the following season. Fact of the matter is (and I wouldn't think I'd have to convince United supporters of this) is that Maguire is one of the best central defenders in the world and has been a key figure in helping us secure 3rd place this year...
That's exactly my point. Unless you have a concrete argument then it's all just opinions. And it's well established that opinions are rather like assholes.The two leagues are not comparable, and even if they were, this by any stretch of the imagination is a ridiculous argument.
Yes because obviously it's always better to be simple than to actually think things throughKoulibally has been poor this season not just based on Barcelona game, if his name is Harry Maguire, he would be smashed in the media for all his mistakes this season. No need to be complicated.
So you’ve just ignored an entire season, and the most recent season just to support your argument. That’s somewhat amusing.Because one did better in one league after being worse for 3 years while also not playing at the highest level of competition - sure you could argue Maguire has been better this season but it's a messy comparison and hardly convincing.
Koulibally has been poor this season, you are trying to twist his poor season so hard that's why I said you made it complicated. If player played poor is poor, no need for excuse.Yes because obviously it's always better to be simple than to actually think things through
Of course I haven't ignored it. I just wouldn't say that Maguire is better on the basis of one season when nothing in their history suggests that's the correct choice.So you’ve just ignored an entire season, and the most recent season just to support your argument. That’s somewhat amusing.
Not arguing that. I'm not trying to twist anything, you lot are grasping at straws to argue Maguire is somehow a top CB in Europe because he was better this year than an established top CB who also underwent significant turmoil at club level and still was involved in higher stakes matches.Koulibally has been poor this season, you are trying to twist his poor season so hard that's why I said you made it complicated. If player played poor is poor, no need for excuse.
Yet a hell of a lot better than the season before, the main change ing Maguire.36 goals isn't particularly impressive especially when you consider we had our first choice back 5 fit for the majority of the season. Maguire has shown nothing to say he's one of the best defenders in the world. He's had a good season but there are serious flaws in his game and its one of the main reasons people want us to sign another CB. Being perfectly honest, there's been little in it between him and Lindelof this season but because he's our captain and cost £80m, his place will go unchallenged. If Lindelof isn't one of the best defenders in the world (he isn't) then neither is Maguire.
I also find it difficult to say he's one of the best in the world when he hasn't come up against players in the CL.
Indeed. But I was talking over the last few years when he’s been the best defender in Serie A over the course of that period. I reckon the ship has sailed on a move here, given Napoli will want top dollar yet he’s both getting on and this campaign shown signs of decline. But 2-3 years ago when the rumours started it would have been a hugely influential signing.I don't watch Madrid but I've seen a fair bit of Napoli this season. This isn't just one game - Koulibaly has been poor throughout the majority of the season.
Everyone makes excuses for players they like. No such thing as no excuses.Koulibally has been poor this season, you are trying to twist his poor season so hard that's why I said you made it complicated. If player played poor is poor, no need for excuse.
It's a common question - Grealish or VdB - on here. We're looking like we're going to sign one CM and it looks to be between those two. It may not end up being either, but that's been the question for a while on here.Grealish and VdB don't even play the same position, what are you on about?
Also, I can't recall a single person who was arguing against the signing of VVD. Unless you're limiting things to the echo chamber of this forum, that was universally lauded as a good move.
Please don't try to move the goal post of the argument.Not arguing that. I'm not trying to twist anything, you lot are grasping at straws to argue Maguire is somehow a top CB in Europe because he was better this year than an established top CB who also underwent significant turmoil at club level and still was involved in higher stakes matches.
And this is my response.Difference is Koulibaly is struggling against Barcelona. Maguire / Lindelof struggled against Bournemouth.
Not that I'd not take either at Chelsea, mind.
And this is your response.Maguire / Lindelof didn't struggle against City though as we beat them twice this season with only conceded 1 goal. That's also the difference.
And this is my response.I'd argue there's a fundamental difference between league matches and CL matches (especially when, no offence, you were never in contention for the league).
Koulibally has been poor this season not just based on one game and you tried so hard to find excuses for him because you believe league & CL matches are different. He's been poor in the league this season anyway, that's the reality.Napoli also was never in contention for the league & UCL. Napoli conceded 50 goals this season, you made it sounds like Koulibally wasn't struggling in Serie A. Even De Ligt has been struggling in serie A but people don't notice because their names are not Harry Maguire.
Fair enough. I wouldn't class Grealish or VdB as being like-for-like - the former being a left-sided 8 / LW and the latter being a right-sided pivot midfielder / 6.It's a common question - Grealish or VdB - on here. We're looking like we're going to sign one CM and it looks to be between those two. It may not end up being either, but that's been the question for a while on here.
And, if you look at the thread on here at the time, plenty on here were saying it was poor business from Liverpool. I mostly only reference stuff said on this forum, yeah. I don't listen/read anyone else's opinions on football, really. Aside from people I know outside of here.
Chelsea fans lives in Portugal liked Koulibally? More like being clueless about Koulibally's performance this season.Everyone makes excuses for players they like. No such thing as no excuses.
All this is fine except you're ignoring the original context of this entire thread which is somehow comparing Maguire and Lindelof to Koulibaly on the basis of a single gamePlease don't try to move the goal post of the argument.
blah blah blah
Koulibally has been poor this season not just based on one game and you tried so hard to find excuses for him because you believe league & CL matches are different. He's been poor in the league this season anyway, that's the reality.
I'm actually American, lived in London for a spell in the mid-nineties as my dad was doing a sabbatical & fell in love with Chelsea, moved back to America and met a Portuguese whilst doing my PhD at Columbia, we've now moved to Lisbon.Chelsea fans lives in Portugal liked Koulibally? More like being clueless about Koulibally's performance this season.
It’s not a single game though is it.All this is fine except you're ignoring the original context of this entire thread which is somehow comparing Maguire and Lindelof to Koulibaly on the basis of a single game
The poster clearly mentioned about Koulibally this summer being tounted around 80m. Clearly his point was correct about Koulibally being overpriced due to his poor performance this season. What are you on about mate?All this is fine except you're ignoring the original context of this entire thread which is somehow comparing Maguire and Lindelof to Koulibaly on the basis of a single game
You're right about Grealish/VdB. I guess it just depends on the type or midfielder Ole deems more important.Fair enough. I wouldn't class Grealish or VdB as being like-for-like - the former being a left-sided 8 / LW and the latter being a right-sided pivot midfielder / 6.
Re: VVD - I don't mean to be presumptuous but I think your opinion might have stood out given the natural instinct here to downplay anything the scouse are up to.
Whether you are an American or lived in London or whatever, it doesn't change my point that you are clueless about Koulibally has been poor this season until someone told you so.I'm actually American, lived in London for a spell in the mid-nineties as my dad was doing a sabbatical & fell in love with Chelsea, moved back to America and met a Portuguese whilst doing my PhD at Columbia, we've now moved to Lisbon.
Feel free to @ me though in your future posts; happy to defend my takes.
The poster clearly mentioned about Koulibally this summer being tounted around 80m. Clearly his point was correct about Koulibally being overpriced due to his poor performance this season. What are you on about mate?
My point is that looking at solely the past season's performance is silly. Why limit yourself to a smaller dataset? I took issue with the OP going on about how players going for £80m should be flawless and using this as a stick to beat Koulibaly with despite the fact that Maguire actually cost £80m and has made his fair share of errors in matches with less pressure.Doesn't change my point that you are clueless about Koulibally has been poor this season until someone told you so.
Pleasure chatting with you mate, apologies if I came across as needlessly hostile.You're right about Grealish/VdB. I guess it just depends on the type or midfielder Ole deems more important.
Ha, you're probably right about the van Dijk part, too!
You limit yourself by mentioning Koulibally was terrible against Barcelona while Maguire / Lindelof were terrible against Bournemouth. In reality, Koulibally was terrible against lesser team in Serie A while Maguire / Lindelof performed well against the top team in PL.My point is that looking at solely the past season's performance is silly. Why limit yourself to a smaller dataset? I took issue with the OP going on about how players going for £80m should be flawless and using this as a stick to beat Koulibaly with despite the fact that Maguire actually cost £80m and has made his fair share of errors in matches with less pressure.
Of course I'm not clueless about Koulibaly; I've tracked him closely for years now given Chelsea's repeated attempts to sign him. Yes he's regressed but my point is given his track record and the external factors involved in Napoli's season, I'm more inclined to write it off as a fluke. Perhaps I'm wrong and this is a genuine regression; we'll just have to wait and see.
Difference is Koulibaly is struggling against Barcelona. Maguire / Lindelof struggled against Bournemouth.
Not that I'd not take either at Chelsea, mind.
Fair enough. It was a flippant post in response to what I considered a flippant thread. In the context of what I've posted, I can understand your perspective.You limit yourself by mentioning Koulibally was terrible against Barcelona while Maguire was terrible against Bournemouth. In reality, Koulibally was terrible against lesser team in Serie A while Maguire also performed well against the top team in PL.
Remember, this is your first post.