I know MLB have the luxury tax. So some teams actually make money off the big spenders for doing feck all.
Woodward, Glazers....
- Thread starter Dans
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This is the biggest problem at United in the short run, anyway do the Glazers think that any other CEO would run the club contrary to their set parameters? That would be incredibly unprofessional and suicidal for a CEO but we are now suffering from the law of unintended consequences because the 'yes man' they installed is so out of his depth that the club is now spending more money for no success, its unheard of for a club to have the highest wage bill in the league for over three years and not mount a title challenge for example. Look at what we have had to spend just to bring in a defender of Maguire's status in the game, do you think Juventus or Bayern would accept such nonsense? Then clubs like Dortmund see us focking out outrageous amounts for players like Maguire and Wan Bissaka with glee and we act shocked when they demand a hundred million for their best player who we desperately need?
Because for some reason people find more comfort in the idea that boneheaded decisions are part of a conniving plan than simply conclude that the plan doesn't even make sense for people that are money driven. I mean who would think that giving millions to Jones and Rojo is a better idea than pocketing it yourself?
No. Agree that it will be precisely what they are up to. They really don't care, any tweet is a good tweet, any reply is a good reply.
That or the social media manager wants the Glazers out too and knows any tweet will return #GlazersOut trending.
That or the social media manager wants the Glazers out too and knows any tweet will return #GlazersOut trending.
Half of that is still a good investment. It's not their problem that we are not spending it wisely. Imagine dumping 130m on 2 average defenders.
For e.g- Look how Arsenal is doing the business with the money available. They are also signing players with much less money.
They are probably hoping Pogba goes to provide some funds.
I understand the point you're making, in that United are basically "safe" for the near-term in terms of commercial prospects and ability to make money. But that safety is always assured if there is no punishment for significant neglect. In American sports, there's literally no punishment for not investing. In fact it's the opposite. The worst team of the season is rewarded with first round draft picks next season. And so the idea is that you have a more balanced product. What I don't think the Glazers or Woodward really understand is that United are not a monolithic business like many American teams are. We exist in a structure where what other teams do has a significant impact on our core business. If Chelsea sign Ziyech, that makes our chances of gaining champions league much lower. When Liverpool sign Thiago, the difference between their points total and ours increases in their favour. Last season, the difference between finishing 3rd and 8th was Bruno and a global pandemic that gave us time to restore injured players.
Not investing this season means we're in a position, yet again, where one injury to Rashford, Pogba, Bruno or Martial means we finish 6th or below. Two of those guys being out for a while is even more of a problem. Sponsors will see us finishing 6th and our owners not investing as a clear sign that we're not moving forward. And eventually we'll lose these sponsors to teams that do invest. These problems don't occur over a year or two. But in five years' time, we're looking at huge issues if we don't invest properly now. (Did any of us really think we'd be struggling for top 4 in the next years back in 2013?) While relegation is a long shot, we might finish outside the top 10 at some point soon if this pattern continues. From there, who knows.
Yes. Which is terribly underwhelming for a fan base that experienced the SAF years (well, the SAF years after he turned United into a winning machine, obviously).
But it's also "there or thereabouts" from a certain perspective.
Liverpool remained "there or thereabouts" from a certain perspective too, during their barren years between the pre-PL era and...now. In fact, if it weren't for SAF they might have easily won a league or two.
Did Liverpool become irrelevant at any point between winning the league in '90 and winning it again last season? No, they did not. As evidenced by fan base, revenue, sponsor deals, and so forth - in terms of money, they lost ground to their rivals (as you'd expect), but they hardly faded into obscurity or lost their ability to compete financially (relatively speaking).
Liverpool's rise in recent seasons isn't the story of a team that went entirely to shite - and then somehow managed to come back from the dead. They were always there, a bit behind - but there. And this obviously has something to do with their status in the game, established by decades of high-profile achievements: huge world wide fan base willing to buy into the "glamour" of the club, the idea that they were a "sleeping giant" (rather than a dead giant) - and so on.
United and Liverpool are very similar, whether we like to admit it or not. Which is good news in this particular case. We could easily pull off their "sleeping giant" act for years to come, I suspect, without becoming irrelevant - and it wouldn't take more than a few shrewd appointments (and a bit of patience, granted) to bounce back.
Of course, when I say "good news" I have to add that it probably isn't good news for us fans if the Glazers are sitting there, literally banking on precisely this assumption, being content to cash in on the "legend" forever.
All owners value success, but our owners have a different perception of what defines success compared to the owners of Liverpool and most other top clubs in Europe.
First United is one of the clubs that has invested the most in his team in terms of transfers fees and Wages, so you don't really have a point and the point that I made is that you do not lose relevance that easily, you do not lose visibility that easily which is why Liverpool remained one of the best commercial successes during their 30 years without a PL and they did exactly what we have done spend a lot but poorly.
Also none of the franchises I mentioned underinvested during the last 30 years which is why I picked them, which is also true for United. The issue for all of them has been poor management.
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I agree with 90% of what you're saying, there is absolutely no way Woodward should have any say at all in the running of the football side of the club considering the utter mess he has made of it for years! And it would be great if the glazers went and were replaced by someone prepared to pay the minimum of 2 billion pounds for the club and then allow the club to reinvest all the money it makes back into the club. But we all know that isn't happening anytime soon.
I don't agree that the Sancho saga says it all, not wanting to pay more money than any premier league club has ever paid for a player in the middle of a pandemic and global economic meltdown, is one of the few transfer decisions Woodward has made that I don't have an issue with and the way some fans have reacted like it would be basically a criminal act not to sign Sancho just comes across at best overly entitled at worse children having a paddy that they can't have a new toy. I'm not even annoyed we haven't signed anyone in that position. Considering how well Greenwood did in that role in the latter half of the season, and that we have the huge squad we have, we don't want to just sign someone for the sake of signing someone, it needs to either be a significant upgrade on Greenwood that it is worth possibly hindering his development or the right kind of back up, whose good enough to be an improvement on the backups we have but isn't going demand the kind of wage and fee that demands a first-team place, and has the right personality to be able to cope with being back up to a young star. That not an easy balance to strike and if they have decided the right player isn't available in that position this summer and they have decided to press on with Greenwood in the position with Mata, James, Lingard and Dalot all as back up, then I would rather that then us add another player to our massive squad when they arn' the player we really want.
Just think of those contract renewals and their lovely pay rises. We should have just said to the players, we will renew with a small pay rise. If they didn't like it tough. Instead we actually paid them so they wouldn't leave us. God help us.
First you tell me there isn't a financial return on success in football. So I give you Liverpool as an example. Then you tell me that they differ from us because they're 'proper' owners and we are run like an American business, and I point out to you that they are owned by Fenway Sports Group. Then you say it's not the same because they've got football men making the decisions. We've massively outspent them, and yet you want to say they are great owners because they invest in the transfer market in order to find success and we don't?
You are missing the point. They are successful largely because of...
(1) ...Klopp. Jurgen came because the Liverpool board were willing to give him what he wanted and not put business decisions before football ones (Old Trafford Disneyland, remember?) Ed is not going to do that.
(2) ...City having an off season. You need to be lucky enough to peak and avoid injuries in the year when the big dog is sleeping. That's very hard to plan and costly if you get it wrong. Ed has no reason to take that risk because finishing 4th is fine with him.
And the reluctance to bring about changes that will ensure that we improve on this aspect, we have spent over a half a billion in transfer fees over the last few years and we literally have nothing to show for it bar a few CL qualifications and a bloated squad. The only way to improve is to get rid of Woodward and bring someone like Van Der Sar as CEO or to bring in a powerful DOF and relegate Woodward to just signing off checks.
Missing out on Sancho is not the problem, even Madrid miss out on players but not having the judgement to recognize early enough that a deal is not doable and not having the flexibility to come up with and and execute an alternative plan is criminal. You can easily see that this season will be another slog for CL places which we are likely to come up short and the prospect of losing Pogba on the cheap will loom large once again probably with another managerial sacking coupled with the new guy coming in and demanding a completely new back four. The disaster unfolding before our eyes is easy to predict.
No they spend a lot but within strict parameters. That's why it appears badly spent - because football success is not their main yardstick. If it was we would have a Director of Football.
Where did I say they were great owners? They are certainly better owners than the Glazers, everyone and their dog could point that out. It is not as outlandish comment as your response suggests.
Most people do understand this. That's why this thread is called woodward/glazers. They are both as incompetent as each other but are stuck with both of them and it's driving fans insane.
Like I said in that post, the crime is not failing to sign Sancho but the complete lack of an alternative plan and the paralysis that has characterized our window. Greenwood is just as promising as Sancho was at a similar age but we all know that we can't rely on him for consistent performances throughout the season. I know we all hate mediocrity but there is a huge gap between Lingard/Pereira/Mata and someone like Perisic/Brooks/Bale who could have come in to help stabilize that right wing whilst Greenwood matured at his own pace like we had Fletcher and Ole filling in on he right whilst Ronaldo found his feet. We could then have used the remainder of the money to strengthen the defence, our fullback options are pathetic. The standing still is what I find unacceptable.
Spot on. We've spend a feck ton over the past 7 years. Unfortunately it's been on either players that never wanted to be here or players that were never good enough to make the step up/bad management and circumstances. Fernandes, Martial and Pogba are the only clear cut exceptions I can think of.
Depends on how you want to spin the stats but United commercially were a long way ahead of every club in this country in that department.
It’s clear that they are happy with top 4, and getting CL revenue. We will be Arsenal soon enough, cheering at the end of the season with a top 4 finish and maybe a cup or two sometime.
So much excitement finishing the last season, all gone now. Chelsea will finish above us. And if any of our key players are injured, I doubt our top 4 chances. If we don’t make top 4 next season, the board will spend a bit again, rinse and repeat.
So much excitement finishing the last season, all gone now. Chelsea will finish above us. And if any of our key players are injured, I doubt our top 4 chances. If we don’t make top 4 next season, the board will spend a bit again, rinse and repeat.
Everyone and their mum knew how important it was that we improved once we made Top 4.
It wasn't about shiny new things, it was about addressing the glaring weaknesses in the squad.
One of them being just about our entire bench.
Sancho would have been more of a statement signing that we could challenge at the very top.
Instead, once we realized we couldn't sign him, we should have moved on and addressed other aspects of the squad, which we haven't and doesn't really look like we have any plan to do so.
Instead, fans sit here watching their club look like a total meme run by idiots.
The lack of ambition at a club losing its place as one of the largest in the world and the biggest in England is shocking and that starts with the people at the top.
It wasn't about shiny new things, it was about addressing the glaring weaknesses in the squad.
One of them being just about our entire bench.
Sancho would have been more of a statement signing that we could challenge at the very top.
Instead, once we realized we couldn't sign him, we should have moved on and addressed other aspects of the squad, which we haven't and doesn't really look like we have any plan to do so.
Instead, fans sit here watching their club look like a total meme run by idiots.
The lack of ambition at a club losing its place as one of the largest in the world and the biggest in England is shocking and that starts with the people at the top.
It's a stretch on my part because I don't consider that they were bad, now while United were juggernauts in the 90s, they stalled in the early 2000s until 2006 while Real Madrid and Barcelona made a comeback and in the case of Madrid surpassed United.
I really do wonder when if ever it will all boil over. I'd assume this season since they are fecking over a club legend but then again I've been surprised/dissapointed in our fans togetherness in the past. It really does baffle me so many fans rather sit in silence than make some noise about the issues.
I get nothing changed in 2010. I was there too it was dissapointing. But atleast it was in the news. At least our point of view was known.
Now no United group of fans care enough to make a difference not atleast do it seems. Maybe they are just too jaded which is understandable as the Glazers have been fecking us for years.
All I Know is if we stuck to our guns atleast it would get some coverage. They don't deserve to get to quietly destroy the club.
Where is the communication with the fans from the owners that they promised in 2005?City's CEO does an interview on the future every season. Ed Woodward barely ever talks and when he did he said this summer we would continue to build and that our main goal is winning titles? Where is the evidence of that?
What happened to supporter groups like MUST?(sold out)
Is it so much to ask for some communication on where the club is going? If they truly valued the fans at all as anything other than consumers we wouldn't have to ask for these things.
All in all it is just exhausting and dissapointing and the fact the media and our ex players rarely if ever highlight the issues and instead focus on individuals exasperate the problem. If common ground was struck between the majority of United fans it would spread into the media and we would have a sliver of hope at things actually changing.
I get nothing changed in 2010. I was there too it was dissapointing. But atleast it was in the news. At least our point of view was known.
Now no United group of fans care enough to make a difference not atleast do it seems. Maybe they are just too jaded which is understandable as the Glazers have been fecking us for years.
All I Know is if we stuck to our guns atleast it would get some coverage. They don't deserve to get to quietly destroy the club.
Where is the communication with the fans from the owners that they promised in 2005?City's CEO does an interview on the future every season. Ed Woodward barely ever talks and when he did he said this summer we would continue to build and that our main goal is winning titles? Where is the evidence of that?
What happened to supporter groups like MUST?(sold out)
Is it so much to ask for some communication on where the club is going? If they truly valued the fans at all as anything other than consumers we wouldn't have to ask for these things.
All in all it is just exhausting and dissapointing and the fact the media and our ex players rarely if ever highlight the issues and instead focus on individuals exasperate the problem. If common ground was struck between the majority of United fans it would spread into the media and we would have a sliver of hope at things actually changing.
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Ole said he needed more depth and up to now they have let him down. There is a little time left, so they might do something, but it just shows complete disorganisation, although we do not know how clubs finances have been impacted.
Of course it is. Your original point was:Where did I say they were great owners? They are certainly better owners than the Glazers, everyone and their dog could point that out. It is not as outlandish comment as your response suggests.
And yet you are trying to justify Liverpool's success by saying bleedin' Fenway Sports Group isn't an American 'brand/business/franchise' like we are. That they are a real football club. Up until they signed Klopp, their fans were far from happy with them. They've invested significantly less in the transfer market than we we have as well.
You can't have it both ways. Liverpool have undoubtedly seen success and a return from their investment, despite investing significantly less in the market
. By all means question the competency from a footballing aspect, but questioning the amount of investment in the transfer market is a complete nonstarter. We have spent more than enough to expect a degree of success at the very top.Their appalling owners who were extremely lucky Fergie hung around for the best part of a decade after they took over.Where did I say they were great owners? They are certainly better owners than the Glazers, everyone and their dog could point that out. It is not as outlandish comment as your response suggests.
Woodward has been a huge failure in his role but ultimately as owners they have to take full responsibility for him, we're stuck with owners who inherited their wealth and add very little value to the football club.
Liverpool have built on season after season, they are buying one of the best midfielders in the world as champions of England. Klopp is arguably the best manager in the world also, he turned Woodward down but was happy to head to Liverpool. I suspect he knew more than any of us.
Anyway, my original point still stands - Manchester United are operated as a business, the difference in prize money between first and fourth is not enough for the Glazers to justify spending to close the gap. Business men make the decisions at the club. Liverpool have made some excellent signings over recent years that we can only be jealous of. Their owners have shown to be quite eager for on field success also. Our owners do not give a f*ck. I am not saying anything outlandish here, this is all stuff we know.
We're simply a finished club with these cretins running us.
We will make Liverpool's drought look like a fecking joke
We will make Liverpool's drought look like a fecking joke
Really need to cut some ties to the club or at least to the extend that i'm following it. Can't help but feel it affects my mood in a negative way. Feels liking the club is dying before my eyes, suffocating.
I bought a season ticket for my local League of Ireland team last year and have loved it, proper football club.
I might have to look into something similar! None of the media and club politics and economics, just the matches and the feeling!
I would encourage it for the exact same reasons!
We wont get back to the top with these cnuts owning the club
I agree with some of your points, but I think Liverpool would have fallen far behind the English elites if they hadn't won the 2004/2005 Champions League. That was one of the most cataclysmic events in the history of English football.
Liverpool had the luxury of time in their 30-year barren period in the PL. They were lucky. Even when Chelsea were the best English side in Mourinho's first stint, there were hardly two or three top English teams that had a genuine chance of regularly winning the Premier League/Champions League title. The Premier Leauge was less glamourous. Local/domestic fans were extremely important because gate receipts still contributed the most towards annual club revenues. Huge TV deals were non-existent. Premier League was less global. Social media barely existed. Back in 2000 when Liverpool were signing a measly 21m, 3-year deal with Reebok, United was landing a 300-million, 14-year deal with Nike. Such was the commercial gulf.
Imagine a 30-year barren spell for either Liverpool or United starting today. That English club will fade away into obscurity, definitely will. The playing field has become incredibly competitive. In a few years' time, we may see five/six, or even seven teams with a genuine chance of winning the PL. We haven't won anything for a few years and it is already reflecting in our transfer deals. I don't think we are the preferred English destination for foreign players anymore, or even for English players unless we agree to offer insane wages. Until a few years back, United were always the preferred destination of all foreign and domestic players, unless someone grew up supporting another club, or didn't feel he would get enough first-team game time.
Gone are the days of resting on past laurels.
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Would be nice to enjoy watching football just for the sake of game!
I am left with the feeling that those leeches will suck the club dry(Currently in motion) before they leave and sell it. Can't help feel the structure and finances surrounding the club would have to absolutely collapse before change would be made. And where would it leave the team?
What were fans to do? Unsubscribe/Unfollow United on all social channels? But there would still be millions of followers not following suit?
Stop going to the games? Come on they will have no problem selling the season tickets? If they were to have problems selling out regularly would that not eventually also effect the local areas around the club?
I am by no means an expert, i am not located in Manchester, but thats some of my two cents.