I suppose pundits vary in their access needs. Souness isn't that worried about slagging us off because he's not welcome at Old Trafford anyway. You won't hear him or Carragher say much bad about the dippers though. It's to the credit of Neville and Scholes and Keane and co that they are quite independent minded when it's probably easier not to be.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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There is some truth in there.
And Vidic could hardly move that match he came off a broken collarbone and shouldn't have been playing. Plus, physically we were completely spent, we were playing on three fronts - league, FA Cup and CL, whereas AC Milan were resting for weeks and barely piped Palermo to 4th in Serie A.
Anyhoo.
No matter what the opinion is about how bad a loss this was or Pep in general, hats off to @padr81
It’s always great when oppo fans take the heat and share their take without getting overly passionate and heated about it.
Just wanted to mention that because it’s posters like that that provide the discussion and make this forum such a good one.
It’s always great when oppo fans take the heat and share their take without getting overly passionate and heated about it.
Just wanted to mention that because it’s posters like that that provide the discussion and make this forum such a good one.
Anyone else think they might struggle a bit next season? Silva gone, Aguero Fernandinho and a few others getting older on the wrong side of 30, and Ake won’t solve their defensive issues. Ederson is struggling too.
If you look at the two sides, not really. But go ahead, continue to have poor and uneducated opinions, can't stop you. If you know anything about United, you would know that the true period of underachievement was after the treble, not early 90s (foreigner rule) and mid 200s.
That's my sentiment as well. He has to spend big again like he did in summer of 2017. They are already linked with Koulabaly for 70m and I can see them signing another player. The guy is being backed insanely again and he must deliver a title or CL or else 5 seasons 2 PL will be underwhelming.
I don’t think that we actually underachieved that much. That is entirely my point. Winning 2 UCLs is something to be praised, not to be belittled for winning only 2. It is such a hard competition where one mistake can eliminate you (for example against Porto in 2004), luck, injuries, referee decisions etc all play a massive part on it. It is incredibly difficult to win it, which is why most managers (except Zidane so far but even he became a fraud this season I guess) struggle to consistently win it.
Sure, Pep might have been disappointing for not winning it with Bayern or City, and sure, he could have done better with either. But my point is, there is no shame on that, it is very hard to consistently do well there.
Thanks dude, I've lost my shit a few times and got deserved warnings, but the way I see it is if I'm gonna be here when we win, gotta be here when we lose.
The fact that very rarely are opposition fans pushed to losing the plot shows how good this place is in general. Not many neutral forums are as welcoming nevermind a one club one. I cant imagine rival fans get the same luxury on other forums.
Their squad is highly overrated on here.
You'd think they have 2 world class players for each position when they don't at all.
Really don't get oppos coming here defending after such soul crushing defeat where Pep did eveything wrong.
This place is already unbearable to read after any draw. Nevermind going on oppos forums.
This place is already unbearable to read after any draw. Nevermind going on oppos forums.
SAF had nine different assistants, I believe. And that's what you have to do - change things, hire fresh people. Instead, Pep replaces Arteta with some old guy who he knows for 20 years. If anything that gk coach has to go, basically made all five goalkeepers he worked with worse.
Yeah, I agree. Unless De Bruyne, Aguero and Sterling can start 35+ games each and there's significant improvement in centre-midfield it's gonna be another season with finish around 80 points.
Think this'll be his penultimate season, or his last if things don't improve. Think he has to win a major trophy that's not the League Cup next season if he wants to keep his job. I'm more than happy for him to stay forever because I think he's done a wonderful job, but my expectations aren't the same as those of our board.
Isn't the reason Fergie was considered to have underachieved in Europe more the overall results more than his "low" number of victory's? Almost a reversal to Pep now who overthinks CL knockout SAF stuck to what worked domestically but elite managers and teams weren't as easy prey.
I remember he got a lot of praise 06-13 for sorting himself out tactically in Europe despite ultimately winning the same amount of CL's as he did upto 2005, he became a lot more saavy which allowed United to compete properly in CL every season.
Queiroz got alot of the plaudits for changing us to a 4-3-3.
Its just too bad we coincided our best runs with a prime barcelona side that were arguably one of the best club teams in history.
They still have a very strong squad with some top class players. They do have problems though and a number of their better players are in a decline so they need a pretty big squad refresh in the next year or two.
With the brutal schedule, this might work in their favor too. Aguero is still class player and they have very good squad. The have quality and quantity.
I agree, I think they will win the league personally.
When the foreigner rule went away in 96, he reached 4 CL finals within the next 14 odd years with 3 (?) semi finals in between.
You might think 14 years, its not that inpressive to have 4 finals. Pep would need to reach 4 finals in the next 5 years to match it since leaving Barca.
Then you have to consider the seasons we werent contenders in when he was rebuilding the sides.
That's true but it still needed Fergie to agree to the changes. If they don't then the assistant could be the best tactican in the world and it would mean jack if the gaffer stubbornly decides more pragmatism was against his mindset. An example of what I'm talking about would be when Steve Bould was Wenger's assistant, I think I read somewhere (maybe an Arsenal fan can confirm it's either true or I'm imagining things) he was practically pleading with Arsene to let him properly work on the defense but he kept saying no.
Yes of course. Stating the obvious. Fergie's greatest trait was delegating to his staff and always evolving his teams over time. That included trusting Queiroz to implement a completely new system which coincided with bringing out the best in Ronaldo and Rooney.
It also was one of the reasons why Keane was let go. He did not agree with the tactics nor did he like the fact that Queiroz was given so much power, almost like a manager.
Back to the point. Quieroz was widely recognised as the mastermind behind our tactical success in the mid 2000s.
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I have said it for some time, but Liverpool have a stronger starting XI than City.
City have more depth in attacking areas no doubt, but as far as first eleven is concerned, Liverpool is stronger.
Ian Cheeseman, who leaked that City had passed the CAS verdict, reckons Pep's signed a one-year extension.
Which success?
I know Queiroz did a lot of good stuff at United and implemented some changes. SAF himself has praised him for that.
And I know the players have praised him for the way he prepared us against Barca in 2008.
But where was his tactical genius when we failed in the CL in 2002/03, 2004/05, 2005/06 and 2006/07?
I have always felt that the 2008 performance against Barcelona was a combination of good preparation and tactics AND:
1. Team ready to go all the way after CL experience in previous years
2. Great defence and not injured (unlike the previous year vs Milan)
3. Great goalkeeper for the first time since Schmeichel - and by 2006/07 he had a great understanding with the defence
4. Luck when we needed it (Barca score 1 goal / penalty at OT and we would have needed 2 goals)
Don’t get me wrong, Queiroz was very good for us and we did well to get him, but his influence is at the same time a bit overrated here.
In terms of winning the CL: Unless you are RM, if you win 1 CL per decade, it’s actually a very good record. If you win 2, it’s great. Even RM only won 1 in the last decade. Bayern also only won 1 in the last decade and 1 so far this decade.
United won 2 in the last 2 decades, didn’t win it in the current decade. Which also doesn’t surprise me. We usually win it / get far when we are a really good team anyway winning our league as well. Can’t see us doing a Liverpool (2005), Chelsea (2012), RM (1998-2002) or Milan (2007) where we are not in form in the league but still win the CL.
And I feel if City are going to win it - especially under Guardiola - then also when they are doing really well in general. But based on that last year should have been their year.
If they get Messi and then win and then win the CL, in a way that may be more damaging to Peps "legacy". All the money in the world and couldn't win it, so had to persuade the GOAT to come and only then would win it.
Yay or nay?
Yay or nay?
Still in quarantine after he travelled to Spain. At this point you have to wonder whether his heart's still in it or not.
In fairness, going into quarantine is rather more of a public health rule than it has a sign of a commitment to Manchester City Football Club.
I understand that but he travelled to Spain knowing it's gonna result in him missing most of pre-season.
He is gone at the end of the season. Don’t think he’s signing that extension.
Has he ever said he won't manage us?
I think if he goes Woody won't be able to resist.
No way he staying in England. He’s going France or Italy.
No monies for his preferred Monopoly FC game over these shores though
. His only way out is Qatar as their WC ambassador, then the US.Yesterday, I watched that famous goal that Messi scored against Real Madrid in CL semi 2010 and was taken aback at how good Pep is.
Messi just glided past five Real Madrid players and touched it pass a stranded Casillas and there was I watching and thinking to myself : "Damn, Barca are so lucky to have a such a genius in charge to make average players produce magic like this".
I look back on Pep's career so far and cannot appreciate him enough.
- He manged to win the Champions League twice with perennial losers Barcelona who never came close to winning it before or after him. Moreover, that side had no business winning it. Especially in 2011, when they were at their peak. They had Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets, while United had a 45-year-old Giggs, Park and Carrick. Anyone else in charge, United win that final 5:1 on player quality alone.
- He managed to win the Bundesliga with Bayern three times. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that Bayern may have won some domestic titles even without him but surely those three leagues were the biggest achievement in their history. For example, he managed to get a tap-in merchant such as Lewandowski to score five goals. Amazing.
- He managed to win the title with freakin' City and with a net spend of only 500 million pounds. City, who previously have not won the league since like the 1900s.
All in all, this is a man who completely turns around the fortunes of all the clubs he takes over and I find any discussions of his sacking to be sacrilege.
Messi just glided past five Real Madrid players and touched it pass a stranded Casillas and there was I watching and thinking to myself : "Damn, Barca are so lucky to have a such a genius in charge to make average players produce magic like this".
I look back on Pep's career so far and cannot appreciate him enough.
- He manged to win the Champions League twice with perennial losers Barcelona who never came close to winning it before or after him. Moreover, that side had no business winning it. Especially in 2011, when they were at their peak. They had Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets, while United had a 45-year-old Giggs, Park and Carrick. Anyone else in charge, United win that final 5:1 on player quality alone.
- He managed to win the Bundesliga with Bayern three times. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that Bayern may have won some domestic titles even without him but surely those three leagues were the biggest achievement in their history. For example, he managed to get a tap-in merchant such as Lewandowski to score five goals. Amazing.
- He managed to win the title with freakin' City and with a net spend of only 500 million pounds. City, who previously have not won the league since like the 1900s.
All in all, this is a man who completely turns around the fortunes of all the clubs he takes over and I find any discussions of his sacking to be sacrilege.
And all his best players were the ones bought by Pellegrini and Mancini - Aguero, Silva, Kompany, KDB, Fernandinho, Sterling.
Pep is an excellent coach but a poor manager. Give him a strong squad with players with high potential and he will get a lot out of them, ask him to solve squad issues and he will keep wasting money.
The problem is his fanboys refuse to acknowledge how bad a manager is, and his haters fail to recognize that he is an excellent coach. Both of those can be true at the same time.
is he less of a dinosaur these days than the managers that usually get called for being simply "stuck"? you can give him all the money he wants, I still wouldn't trust him to fix that defence.
For me, the role of a coach is to get a team to play football that is efficient. It is a result's business. My view of Pep is that he needs a side vastly superior than the opposition to get the most out of it but, at that stage, you could give that side to a tea lady and she would win titles - not as dominantly, though.
So, yes, I consider him a poor coach. Good circus coach, yes. Football coach, no.